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Bump When Watching IV by Cmdr. Williams - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:05:51 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58359 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1490036751718.jpg -(20906B / 20.42KB, 500x381) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 20906
Old one isn't bumping anymore.

>VOY Future's End

I'll admit I love the episodes where the crew somehow ends up in current year and this one is no exception. The entire two parter is really cheesy and it knows it. It's great.
Vedek Bareil - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:34:21 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58360 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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THE best pre-Borg VOY ever gets. Truly a tour de force that puts itself up with City on the Edge of Forever and Time's Arrow.

BWW pic related. Space lesbians ftw!
Talok - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:10:52 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.58364 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>VOY Future's End
>The entire two parter is really cheesy and it knows it. It's great.
As a rehash of Star Trek IV it's better be. It's ok.
Legate Porania - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 02:58:54 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58367 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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And Time's Arrow isn't?
>>ST4: Go back in time to San Francisco to save world from space whales
>>Time's Arrow: Go back in time to San Francisco to save world from space snakes

At least in saving the world from space uhh, yuppies, they picked a different city...in California.

Really they're all just rehashings of
>>City on the Edge of Forever: Go back in time to NYC to save world from tripping ole-country-doctor

nb cuz not watching

Excellent cranial capacity!
Azan - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 09:32:10 EST ID:ITrneraD No.58368 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>TNG The Price

GOSS: My name is DaiMon Goss. These are my consuls, Kol and Doctor Arridor. We'll need chairs.
PICAR I'm Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Enterprise. I'm serving as host for these proceedings.
GOSS: Good, then see to it that we get chairs.
PICAR Let me explain.
GOSS: Fine, fine, just have your Klingon servant get us some chairs.
WORF: I am in charge of Security.
GOSS: Then who gets the chairs?
Benjamin Sisko - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:09:03 EST ID:7YhXTmkd No.58372 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The man knows what he wants
Karyn Archer - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 21:52:04 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58384 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Just watched the season finale of Season 4.

Overall, great episode. The crew all felt really authentic, even with Worf starting to fit in. The crew is excellent with the addition of Worf. I posted in the other thread about the majority of the characters feeling kinda dry (not that it took away from the drama or story) but it just feels like he compliments the rest of the crew so well.
But yeah this episode was great. The campy jokes in the first few minutes like Worf asking if Dax's hosts have always been this annoying and making fun of Kira sneezing because she's pregnant. It all felt pretty real, and was pretty funny.
And of course, Odo episodes are always great. Honestly, I think I find him to be the most compelling character of this series. His story is so interesting and original, and he is so well performed.
This episode was just so whole because it had the whole crew, and even plenty of Garak.
Dr. Lewis Zimmerman - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:22:52 EST ID:xy5uBKLm No.58409 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think DS9 started stronger than most other series but it did also take longer to be as consistently good. Worf basically leveled the fuck up all the way through TNG and only started to not suck towards the end. Then he joins DS9 and instead of having to pull his weight among the best crew in starfleet he's a total fucking badass. He brings something the team needs as well as something the series dynamic needs.

DS9's side characters are all total growers. Quark, Garak, the bad guys all get more awesome as they go. Even Damar grows a spine later on.

When you watch "in the pale moonlight" (season 6) be sure to post here. I feel it beats even "duet" which you've already seen I think (season 1) the one with the cardassian labour camp guy
r-e-b-a-r-t - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:44:37 EST ID:ExRDbmGR No.58411 Ignore Report Quick Reply

just finished transfigurations. i thought it was the episode where geordi turns into a stealthy lizard being but wrong episode, still i really enjoyed it. I love the way it unfolds until the confrontation at the end, an alien civilisation divided between its society, which clings to its physical form and fears the transformation of a few into non-physical beings. Beings in Star Trek seem to exist on planes, the physical plane, the metaphysical (like Q who is omnipotent and undefinable) and something in between. Physical species in Star Trek thrive and survive by adapting to change, like humans overcome their want for material possessions and form the Federation with the Vulcans
who also adapt. In this episode a species becomes divided between those who stagnate clinging to the walls of their own society and to their ideals and those who shed that skin.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:19:34 EST ID:ExRDbmGR No.58413 Ignore Report Quick Reply

DS9 is the series in which the characters change and grow the most, agreed. Rom goes from being a comic relief character to a major character, Sisko really warms up and loosens up from being really stiff and as Dukat says "the most joyless and the lease vulnerable" in the first three seasons, and all the characters get along better over time. Characters develop and grow to like each other, whereas in TNG everyone gets along right from the first episode. DS9 is just a different kind of show though. In DS9 the crew thrive on conflict and doubt just as much as friendship and camaraderie, and things work out over time and unexpectedly.

As for Worf, as befits the show he becomes much more aggressive, but then he grew to love the Enterprise and was reluctant to stay on DS9 at first. Some of the characters on DS9 never end up liking each other, but like I said, DS9 is more about interconnecting stories that continue from episode to episode, whereas in TNG the crew triumphs at the end of each episode.

Dukat is a great character, and the show continually throws you off because you never know what to think of him. He's responsible for the deaths of millions of Bajorans, and yet regrets that is absent on his son's birthday. As the show goes on he turns out to be a villain, but there are so many great character moments.

Garak too is a very grey character (no pun intended), he's marooned on the station and in a way embodies the show itself, he is stranded between loyalties as Cardassia destroys itself and he helps the Federation knowing full well it well end badly for Cardassia, but he must do it anyway because the alternative is Dominion rule. It's a show very much about different characters who often don't entirely trust or like each other but end up working together for the same cause in different ways, torn between their own beliefs and the greater good.

Quark believes in nothing but earning profit in any and every way he can to satisfy his great but ends up great influencing things in this way. Characters trying to live their own lives but being forced to break their own habits and go against their ideals in times of crisis.

I prefer TNG Worf to DS9 Worf though. In DS9 he becomes overly serious, but then it sort of balances out as he arrives on the station just as Sisko lets loose.
Spot - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:04:49 EST ID:X3s+WNvl No.58415 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Roxann Dawson does an amazing job in Dreadnaught of actually acting out what she is doing. Most actors sort of lamely swipe tools and do random shit, but she actually acts out shit with intention, she looks like she's actually actively using all those tools and shit.

They spend a LOT of attention to detail in this particular episode in general, they zoom in every now and then on what crewmembers are doing on the panels and shit.

A really well-acted and immersive episode.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:23:56 EST ID:ExRDbmGR No.58416 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Hard Time is a fantastic, powerful episode with great performances from Colm Meaney and Craig Wasson. A fine title too "hard time," and a prison in the mind, stripped bare and forced to realise itself, draw its geometry in the sand over and over. O Brien is forced to face himself as he really is at his core without any fancy, freedom, entertainment of warmth aside from that of the embodiment of his own compassion and strength (Echar). When he is broken down enough he kills Echar believing he was hiding food from him, suspicious of his own best friend trying to help him survive, and this is when he temporarily loses his humanity, before regaining it and redeeming himself upon confessing to Bashir.

Beautiful episode, among the best. Season 4 of DS9 has a lot of great episodes; The Visitor too is another amazing, moving episode. Truly Star Trek, all of Star Trek, is so thick with ideas you couldn't cut it with a chainsaw.

I've been rewatching TNG too and appreciating it all over again.
General K'Trelan - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 23:01:36 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58419 Ignore Report Quick Reply
DS9 E01 S04 - Way of the Warrior

All I have to say is shit. I didn't expect this show to engross me this much, and it only gets better at the start of the 4th season.
Helena Rozhenko - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 23:12:14 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.58420 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Quark believes in nothing but earning profit in any and every way he can to satisfy his great but ends up great influencing things in this way.

Thats not true though. Brunt chews Quark out for the sin of selling supplies to Bajorian Refugees at cost.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 04:51:44 EST ID:ExRDbmGR No.58424 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Good point, out of all of the Ferengi he displays the most compassion (aside from Rom of course), but in acts of kindness he still charges. He often masks his schemes in good deeds, like the betting pool and O'Brien and Bashir's racquet ball match, where he claims that the proceeds will go to blankets for Bajoran war orphans, while using it to get customers back in his bar.

It's not true to say that Quark believes in nothing but earning profit, but it's his way of life. The show is lax on moral stance as often the self-serving interests of one individual like Quark end up adding up to the greater good.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 04:56:06 EST ID:ExRDbmGR No.58425 Ignore Report Quick Reply

It does doesn't it? In season 3 things get much better with the introduction of the Dominion and same great episodes like the Past Tense two-parter, then season 4 is just amazing. Seasons 1 and 2 are fine in my eyes too though.
Spot - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 05:32:27 EST ID:X3s+WNvl No.58427 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Hard Time is a fantastic, powerful episode
>The Visitor too is another amazing, moving episode

Those are exactly the two from DS9 season 4 that I have in my "Best Star Trek Episodes" folder myself.
Third of Five - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 17:36:23 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58440 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>TOS Assignment: Earth

Was this supposed to be pilot for another show that never got picked up?
Hikaru Sulu - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 18:35:20 EST ID:ITrneraD No.58441 Ignore Report Quick Reply

You guessed it.

r-e-b-a-r-t - Sun, 26 Mar 2017 20:10:36 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58475 Ignore Report Quick Reply

The Defiant

Great episode. A few things of note. Sisko refers to the Cardassians as an enemy, saying he's "helping an enemy destroy a friend" or something to to that effect, and yet the Cardassians are at that time allies of the Federation. Not exactly friends though, and a lot of people in the Federation don't like them, but still, standing right next to Dukat he thinks of him as his enemy.

Also this is one of my favourite Dukat episodes. It shows a human side to him as he laments not being free for his son's birthday. It also shows the way the Cardassian system works, and how Dukat, for all his evil acts during the occupation, is very much of his society, and how the rigidity and strict discipline of Cardassian society may be the very thing that inspires such brutality and depravity in their actions beyond Cardassia. On Terok Nor Dukat was in charge and free to do as he pleased and also felt in charge, but in Central Command he appears completely different, much more subdued and following strict regulations and seems weary of appearing a certain way to his subordinates and before the eyes of the Obsidian order. It's a very stifling, awkward atmosphere, and he clearly dislikes overstepping his boundaries, visibly uptight when Sisko tries to get Tom Riker off the hook. Very officious and professional and formal even in language "i'll have to clear that with the ministry of justice," and the way he moves and his expression fixed and motions direct, far from the arrogant, laid back Prefect of Bajor or the almost cartoonishly insane villain he becomes later on.

I also love the Cardassian architecture and design.
Mobara - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:05:29 EST ID:X3s+WNvl No.58494 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The Chute

Simultaneously brilliant and simultaneously shit
Guinan - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 17:33:44 EST ID:6gF3vg4n No.58503 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This made me laugh out loud. It was a good idea, but a shitty execution.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:08:58 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58505 Ignore Report Quick Reply

it's just a great season with great episode after great episode. Great episodes for every character, a great variety of episodes, heavy episodes like hard time, fun episodes, our man bashir and little green men are awesome, starship down, bar association, indiscretion, hippocratic oath. Then in the last three seasons it changes, of course it's war time.

Watched In The Pale Moonlight lastnight. One of the very best episodes, incredible performances especially from Avery Brooks and Andrew Robinson, also great shady and unpleasant characters, Senator Vreenak and Graython Tolar, it's just an amazing episode.

The one thing I don't like so much about the later seasons is that they made Dukat such a completely irredeemable, over-the-top villain, especially seeing as he was such a complex character in the first few seasons. We got to see different sides to him, and the episodes in which he works with Sisko are some of the best of those first three seasons.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:47:14 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58507 Ignore Report Quick Reply

watching "let he who is without sin"

exactly when did worf become so comically uptight? he was uptight in tng but was still able to cut loose.
Vice Admiral Leyton - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:57:47 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58508 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>VOY Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy

Overlookers look like the Sontarans' nerdy brother that stays inside and plays video games all day.
Elizabeth Cutler - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:16:13 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58511 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I like the way they did Dukat. He's like an Adolf Eichmann character in some ways and a study on the banality of evil and all that jazz. He was complex in that you couldn't quite place him as a fascist murderer or just a guy who had to deal with tough decisions like everyone else for a few seasons. But as the show wraps up they have to conclude that he always was the bad guy anyway. No matter how much you're a patriot or a loving father you can't escape aiding genocide.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:11:49 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58512 Ignore Report Quick Reply

The occupation of Bajor wasn't so much extermination as it was forced labour. They weren't out to exterminate the Bajorans so much as exploit them until they'd mined the planet of all resources. Then they might have killed them, or more likely kept them as slaves to take back to Cardassia (some of the Bajorans were secretly kept at labour camps in the Cardassian system like Li Nalas.

What's strange is that Kira doesn't seem to mind working with Dukat. It might be because it's necessary to the mission, or Dukat's direct involvement in the actions of his subordinates might not have been known. It's revealed later that Dukat was much more than just a figurehead and was complicit in the actions of the Cardassians on Bajor, and it's even revealed when he goes insane that he wanted to kill every last Bajoran, whilst also deluding himself into believing he was helping them. So Dukat doesn't just become evil, his character is revealed.

Either way he's one of Trek's greatest characters.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:41:09 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58513 Ignore Report Quick Reply

okay so it was genocide, watching "orphans" and apparently the cardassians killed 10 million bajorans.
Pavel Chekov - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:28:16 EST ID:YX6hX83Z No.58514 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Can't wait to rejoin this thread. Been waiting on a couple dvds to appear at the local video store so I can finally watch all the movies start to finish. Still got Ent and Voy to watch as well.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:34:26 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58515 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I too have still to watch Voyager and Enterprise. I like that I've still got a lot of Trek to see for the first time, and I liked what I saw of Voyager.
Elizabeth Cutler - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:15:34 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58519 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>one of Trek's best

no argument there.

I think having so many episodes where he and Kira work together, and those plotlines usually illustrating Kira's tactical mind and just [/]how well[/*] they work together is supposed to make a point about radicals being more similar to their oppressors than they'd like to admit. Kira not minding working with him, and how he brings out her ruthlessness, is exploring the theme of becoming what you hate.

In my personal politics I think that's a load of horse shit, and the show even touches on this by having Kira say something to the effect of her ruthlessness being in service of a righteous cause rather than an exploitative one, but alas. Trek wouldn't be Trek if it didn't always take the high-minded and diplomatic route. So I think Dukat's also there to illustrate the other side of Kira's coin, so to speak.
Elizabeth Cutler - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:18:15 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58520 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Oh also nb for double post but I'm watching DS9 S04E15 "Bar Association" (Netflix calls it "Bar Associate"? wtf?) and anyway it's only a bit part of this episode but I really like scenes where Odo and Worf are together. they play off each other well.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:14:08 EST ID:L51DfOC9 No.58521 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Also watching Bar Association. Great episode, I like the scene where Odo for once agrees with Quark about the union, and how he doesn't like mobs and if you need one to get what you want it's not worth getting. Odo and Worf too are great together, mutual stiffness and need for order. Also shows maybe why Worf is so consistently uptight on DS9, as opposed to TNG where he was much more lax. Also watched the episode "let he who is without sin" lastnight and it's hilarious, he gets irritated at quark and tries to ruin everyone's fun on a pleasure planet.

As for Dukat and Kira, Kira and Dukat are in some ways similar; angry, authoritative, ruthless, and both patriots, Kira for Bajor, Dukat for Cardassia (although you can see Dukat become increasingly disillusioned until at some point he just says f--k it (around season 5 when he negotiates for Cardassia to join the Dominion, no longer for Cardassia but just for himself, having lost everything he becomes all about getting back his authority, getting back at Sisko,, or getting Cardassia back to its former glory (he and Damar clearly wanted to oust the Dominion once they defeated the Federation and Romulans).
The Doctor - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:17:32 EST ID:X3s+WNvl No.58538 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Tuvok is fucking golden in Future's end

>Who are you people? And what is that thing in your pants?
>Tuvok: I beg your pardon?

>Who the hell are you two?
>Tuvok: Please stand aside officer.
>he shags them all
Legate Kell - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:00:35 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58539 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>DS9 S04E17 - Rules of Engagement

Where the fuck is Garak this season? Sisko uses him to warn Cardassia about the Klingon invasion, then we get a scene with him and Dukat fighting side by side, but other than that he's disappeared. Did Andrew Robinson have other gigs during filming or something?
Kalita - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:39:40 EST ID:Cd4VKQso No.58540 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Dukat and Kira
I'd not thought of it that way. However in time they both journey in different directions. Kira would do what she did again but sees it as horrible and a stain apon her, her acts of murder were things she wishes she didn't have to do but feels she did. In time she lets go and accepts that this is not a suitable life for anyone. Dukat meanwhile becomes a bitter reflection. Similar but instead resentful, proud of what he did, as Kira learns that Cardassians are people too Dukat diminishes his victims and so on. Both come to terms with their dark past and accept it in their own way, but accept different aspects.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:55:27 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58541 Ignore Report Quick Reply

He's in the episode Our Man Bashir, helping Bashir when the transporter patterns of the crew are trapped in the Bond style holosuite program. Great episode.

He only has a handful of episodes at most each season, although more later on.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:58:31 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58542 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Indeed, while Kira grows to accept the Cardassians and aid them Dukat hates the Bajorans more, or he always did and it just comes to the surface. It seems that through the series he tries to tell himself that his intentions were good, that he wanted to improve living conditions, but underneath it was all fuelled by hatred, and self hatred for the Cardassian system he believed in which basically crumbled. He tries to be a patriot but at some point must have realised the Cardassia he knew was broken.
Legate Kell - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:28:48 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58543 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Right, I knew I had seen him in another one recently, I just couldn't place it.

This is my first run through of DS9 in like 16 years. I had only seen it as a kid and when I came back to it I just watched the episodes I remembered, which were mostly from the end. It's weird, I know where everyone ends up but forget how they got there. So I had wrong impressions of a lot of things, like there being as much Garak in the early seasons, or that people like Worf and Damar had always been on the show.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:07:12 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58546 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Damar and Worf are season 4 onward.
Kessick - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:16:57 EST ID:QynCFn2n No.58547 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Damar is probably one of the greatest characters in all of Star Trek.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:32:16 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58548 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Agreed, he gets stuck in a place he doesn't want to be after Sisko retakes DS9, Dukat is gone and he's stuck with Weyoun whom he despises, so he just sort of goes along with what Weyoun wants reluctantly and resorts to alcoholism, before turning in the end.
Guinan - Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:02:15 EST ID:4X53I0XV No.58570 Ignore Report Quick Reply
To be honest Damar is only in one episode in season 4 and I think it's the first time we see him, when Kira teaches Dukat all kinds of terrorist shit so he can row row fight the powah against the Klingons in some kind of shitty Cardaassia transport ship
Chairman Koval - Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:07:52 EST ID:MsiEsiwP No.58574 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Sitting down and watching the good old Wrath of Khan

>Dammit, Jim, what the hell's the matter with you? Other people have birthdays. Why are we treating yours like a funeral?
Guinan - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:42:07 EST ID:L3E9v1HE No.58575 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Damn got to go back through the movies. I've just been watching tng randoms again. Think I might just start going back to doing it in order. As well as I know the series? Its more rewarding following it in sequence. They've fucking got me there, fucking got me.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:58:43 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58580 Ignore Report Quick Reply

just watched 11001001

one of the best season 1 episodes. great idea, great execution.

binars are almost like the borg, a computer hive mind, but they do not assimilate other species cybernetically. i like the way the episode unfolds.
r-e-b-a-r-t - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:01:11 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58581 Ignore Report Quick Reply

one of my favourite trek movies. Spock's death scene and funeral is very moving. the voyage home is my favourite trek film though.
Tora Ziyal - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:19:45 EST ID:FEEwGKYj No.58583 Ignore Report Quick Reply

the storyteller - o'brien is picked as the sera for a bajoran village to fend of an entity created by their own negative thoughts. Bashir irritates him and he refuses an offering of women from the village while Bashir stands next to him smiling knowingly. Of course O'Brien says it's because he has a wife and child, but underneath he clearly wants Bashir, his irritation at him simply a denial.

also, i've said this before but sisko really is stiff in those first 2 seasons especially. the show really lifts off in season 3, but in season 4 especially Sisko seems to get a spark in him.
Nevala - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 18:24:45 EST ID:yqI1l0pq No.58618 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Watched The Ensigns of Command the other day. I love that scene where Picard finally has the aliens cornered and fucking hangs up on them and leaves them sweating because they were assholes and hung up on him the entire episode.

Loved that ending and how smug and satisfied he was there. Gave me a good laugh.
Jannar - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:07:20 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58619 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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DS9 Waltz
So I'm still working my way through Deep Space 9. I've posted periodically about it, but haven't really posted anything since early in the season, but god damn this show has grown on me so much. I initially posted saying all the characters were dry, but that was my early seasons impression. They're all growing so much through this show. And in authentic ways, and in ways that help further the plot so well. Maybe it's just because it's more fresh for me right now, but I think DS9 might be my favorite series now. It's just so good. And the heating up of the dominion war in season 6 is so intense. The long arcs just work so well in this series so far.
And Waltz was just fantastic. This is probably the most well executed piece of space opera I've seen out of all of trek. Dukat losing his shit, going full on fucking psycho genocidal maniac was stellar and so well performed. I really gotta hand it to that actor, Dukat is always played so well, and especially in this episode. He never really seems to ham it up.
And speaking of hamming it up, the way that Sisko is acted a lot of the time is kinda off putting, as it feels a little too hammy. By that I mean that some of his reactions feel a little forced and exaggerated. But his performance was just perfect in this episode. God that was such a great episode. This episode is an other one that just kinda epitomizes the peaks of how great this show can be.
Rear Admiral Gregory Quinn - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:12:34 EST ID:KSwJFCD5 No.58620 Ignore Report Quick Reply
VOY S4E12 Mortal Coil

Neelix Dies.
Rear Admiral Gregory Quinn - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:18:54 EST ID:KSwJFCD5 No.58621 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Neelix is dead for 18 hours, but is revived by Seven's borg hax. Being a believer in a sort of heaven, Neelix struggles with the reality that there is no "great forest" where all your loved ones go (since he died and there was nothing). It's a nice philosophically inviting episode.
Vice Admiral Nakamura - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:31:34 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.58622 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I liked the part where Nelix died.
Rear Admiral Gregory Quinn - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:55:31 EST ID:KSwJFCD5 No.58623 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I actually was enjoying the episode until the writing awkwardly tried to fumble through the portrayal of Neelix's struggle with his new realization about death. His unprovoked temper tantrum at Seven is outright unbelievable, and it doesn't help that it's coming from Neelix either.

Goddamn his whole argument stems from not asking to be brought back into life, as if he chose to be born to begin with. For fucks sake you ungrateful furry thank the lady for saving your fucking life like everybody else would.
Rear Admiral Gregory Quinn - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:57:01 EST ID:KSwJFCD5 No.58624 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Alright I'm happy again. His dumb rage nearly killed him by causing his cells to reject the borg nanoprobes and reverting his cells to a necrotic state.
Legate Kell - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 20:17:52 EST ID:KSwJFCD5 No.58627 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Then the fuck tries to kill himself by beaming himself into a nebula, defying a direct order. Frankly, I fucking hate Neelix, and I could not have said that 1 hour ago.
Grilka - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 21:28:34 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58630 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Neelix is a fuck
Legate Kell - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 21:44:56 EST ID:KSwJFCD5 No.58631 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I know I just raged a brick about Neelix, but I admit he isn't always bad like Wesley Crusher.
Lt. Darien Wallace - Sun, 02 Apr 2017 21:49:39 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58634 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Or Keiko.
Latha Mabrin - Mon, 03 Apr 2017 13:47:03 EST ID:tfnb7ZYb No.58647 Ignore Report Quick Reply

shore leave - first trek episode i ever saw, on tv, mid-day, as a kid.

i was a fan of star wars and my mum mentioned that "star trek" was on tv, which I had heard mention of but had never watched, ended up really enjoying it but didn't get into star trek until like, nearly ten years later or something.

it's a great episode, especially love spock's comment about conserving energy for later use rather than going running around wasting it. that's just spock. great character moments like that are what makes it. also really nice setting.
Lt. Joseph Carey - Mon, 03 Apr 2017 15:04:07 EST ID:ZNB0CS1E No.58651 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Or Keiko.

Watching S5E2, right now. What does Kim always get the captain's chair if he is an ensign, and why don't they promote him?
Lt. Joseph Carey - Mon, 03 Apr 2017 15:07:24 EST ID:ZNB0CS1E No.58652 Ignore Report Quick Reply
How much time passes in a season of trek?
Guinan - Mon, 03 Apr 2017 15:11:35 EST ID:kIATkCZd No.58653 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Usually about a year, give or take
Guinan - Mon, 03 Apr 2017 15:11:35 EST ID:kIATkCZd No.58654 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Usually about a year, give or take
Legate Turrel - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 07:00:08 EST ID:1IXmTGTr No.58658 Ignore Report Quick Reply

"captive pursuit"

effectively gives you a feeling of what it would be like to be an alien in star trek discovering a new culture/society for the first time, owing to a good performance by the guy who played the tosk, and good direction. also early on in the show the station itself seemed quite alien, not all the characters were comfortable with each other. I like the design of the tosk ship. also love the way o'brien just cuts off bashir (didn't like him at that point in the show, and then quark). Still, it's quite odd going back to that first season where some of the characters don't really like/trust each other yet, it just feels different, and that first season just feels different anyway. also sisko does have his moments but he's mostly quite stiff up until season 3.

still, that first season isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be. it's just that season 3 onward is so much...better..warmer in any case, as there's more chemistry between the crew, the overall story picks up and sisko doesn't seem so much like a lost parade float.
Valkris - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 09:51:39 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58661 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>DS9 In the Pale Moonlight

I thought this was a really good episode. Definitely above average in concept for the episode, and performance. It would easily be top 5 for me if the guy who plays Sisko wasn't hamming it up as much. Idk why but he really turns me off a lot in the series. I mean a lot of the time it works, but most of the time I just wish he'd turn down the ham just 1 degree. It really doesn't work when he's doing his confession thing to the computer in this episode.
That's really my only grievance though, the episode was great. 4/5. Seeing Sisko go that far, and recruiting Garak to help with his little nefarious plot, just goes to show how desperate he, and the federation are at this point in the war. And it does that well, because something like that is so far out of character for Sisko, but it still came off as believable. So.. very well done.
Katogh - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 10:36:41 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58662 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>VOY The Voyager Conspiracy

It's unexpected, but Seven is really starting to grow on me. And it wasn't just because she at one point thought Janeway was insane. But uh, what was up with that tractor beam?
Legate Turrel - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:22:42 EST ID:1IXmTGTr No.58665 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I never understood the dislike for Avery Brooks performance. Hammy, yes, but so was Shatner, and Star Trek acting is generally theatrical. I don't like early Sisko much, up until later in season 3, when he suddenly warms up somehow. He's such a hard case in those first two seasons, and so overly serious. His performance as Dr. Noah in Our Man Bashir is the best example of season 4 onward Sisko as opposed to early Sisko.
Valkris - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 12:56:17 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58668 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's not that I don't dislike it, I enjoy it. But for some reason it's kinda off putting when he over-acts. I mean it's endearing, it's actually really endearing to see him putting so much into the character, but it kinda pulls me out of immersion for a second when I notice it.
It's my first time watching these so maybe his over-acting will grow on me more, I'm just noticing it though and it's not that I hate it, it's just that I notice it, I guess.
General Krim - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:01:36 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58669 Ignore Report Quick Reply
A couple of things have told me it's the editing, not just Brooks' acting. There's one episode where Jake is showing him a piece of writing - I think it was "Nor Battle to the Strong" - where Ben Sisko turns around and gives him the most wide-eyed, weird-looking, overacted smile I've ever seen.

Even with Brooks' overacting in mind, what that said to me was, directing told him "Ok so then you turn back and smile at Jake. Let's get a few takes of that," and so Avery does a few turns and a few different smiles. Then later someone in editing put in the absolute most ridiculous one. It happens sometimes.
Commander Morag - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:06:19 EST ID:Ju4jkf7E No.58670 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Seven is a good character. The biggest problem with her is that most of her development is backloaded. She changes very slowly and then suddenly it's season 7 and she learns a lot of things very quickly. It'd have worked better if they'd spread some of it out a bit better.
Hoshi Sato - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 14:25:13 EST ID:n8McU5oH No.58676 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I like idea that overacting like a stage guy doing shakespear to the back row is just how captains roll in the 24th century
Kalita - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:13:01 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.58679 Ignore Report Quick Reply
TNG S5ep9 Matter of time.

Am I the only one who has the head canon that this guy is the same from the VOY 2 in LA?
Kalita - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:13:22 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.58680 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>VOY 2 parter
Kalita - Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:14:21 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.58681 Ignore Report Quick Reply
which is the exact ep form the OP/ nb for these trips. not liek it matters.
Private E Hamboyan - Thu, 06 Apr 2017 01:03:28 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.58715 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>DS9 S7E1
worthless whiny bitch Arrives
This shit makes me want to just fucking quit this show. Fuck her. Fuck Bryan Fuller. This is dumb.
I've already seen the ending so fuck, why should I put up with this nonsense.
Private E Hamboyan - Thu, 06 Apr 2017 01:13:52 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.58716 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Hello Benjamin, it's me, Dax. I mean not Jadzia Dax, but worthless whiny bitch Dax ;)
Yeah fucking inauthentic as hell, fucking fake. Go back to the hole you crawled up from you tiny whore. FUCK YOU.
Guinan - Thu, 06 Apr 2017 11:49:41 EST ID:qLfc3D/s No.58731 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm rewatching DS9 and I plan on skipping most of season 7
Jaresh-Inyo - Thu, 06 Apr 2017 21:44:18 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58769 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>DS9 Take Me Out To The Holosuite
Lol, why the fuck are they taking time to train for and play a baseball game in the middle of the Dominion War.
Colonel Lovok - Thu, 06 Apr 2017 23:35:38 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58770 Ignore Report Quick Reply
They needed a break.
Eliminator Leck - Fri, 07 Apr 2017 05:04:48 EST ID:GXFLYcN6 No.58772 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I agree, much of the time it seems like a very leisurely war for the DS9 crew. No wonder Solok is in such a bad humour, and what's more, at the end of the episode, the DS9 crew mock him and his crew, no doubt before they go back on duty and are probably all killed in a skirmish. So much for that R&R, but then he didn't have to be such a dick to Sisko. Maybe beating his old study of human inferiority at the academy seemed like a good way to blow off steam (and we can see in this episode that Vulcans do indeed have it), but alas it was not to be, and we never heard from Solok again.
Jaresh-Inyo - Fri, 07 Apr 2017 11:33:48 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58776 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Yeah I understand they threw that in there to break up the Dominion War and add some comic relief, I guess it's just kinda annoying that seasons 5&6 were so good in terms of Dominion War drama, that I wish they would focus on it more. Their comic relief episodes in season 6&7 so far have been pretty terrible lol.
Maybe that's just how I"m seeing this the first time though. I imagine my second time seeing Profit and Lace I'll look at it in a more endearing way lol.
Eliminator Leck - Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:15:57 EST ID:GXFLYcN6 No.58778 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I enjoyed Profit and Lace, particularly Bashir, and slug-o-cola chairman. The Magnificent Ferengi and Little Green Men are my favourite Ferengi episodes.
Ambassador Soval - Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:45:09 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.58779 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Little Green Men

I remember that episode mostly for the fact that they all start slapping their ears to get their translators working again. Which, if you know Ferengi biology, would be like repeatedly racking yourself in the balls to get better cell reception.
Dr. Leah Brahms - Fri, 07 Apr 2017 17:26:50 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58780 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>repeatedly racking yourself in the balls
Hey man, maybe those three guys are just into some freaky shit you know? Getting a little cock and lobe torture in. I hear the kids call it oomoks busting these days.
Gul Evek - Sat, 08 Apr 2017 06:54:14 EST ID:GXFLYcN6 No.58788 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Yes, and it's a little weird as when she's rubbing Nog's ear she's basically masturbating a minor..at least I think Nog is in his early teens..still it's not like that matters. I'm not sure what the sex laws are in Star Trek, but I can imagine they'd be much more free than today.
Tiron - Sat, 08 Apr 2017 09:11:43 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.58789 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>I'm not sure what the sex laws are in Star Trek

Well, from what we see in Voyager is "Do whomever you want, unless your name is Harry Kim."
Deanna Troi - Sat, 08 Apr 2017 15:58:06 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58793 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Just spitballing here, but since we know Nog had already had his Ferengi bar-mitzvah or whatever it is (when he pays Sisko his childhood earnings to become his apprentice/join starfleet) then under Ferengi commerce law he is probably considered a full businessman, and since sex is seen as nothing more than contractual commerce by Ferengi, it would probably be unusual to prevent a Ferengi businessman from acquiring whatever it is he wants.

tl,dr: Nog a man cuz he got the benjies
Herbert Rossoff - Sun, 09 Apr 2017 21:55:10 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58795 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm watching the DS9 episode with Oz, the other of the 100 changelings sent out as children.
This is the episode where Oz and Odo are a very obvious symbol of gay people, or other non socially-accepted groups. It's quite ham fisted, but still really good imo. I'm just now seeing this in this day and age but I imagine 20 years ago it was pretty good commentary.
Herbert Rossoff - Sun, 09 Apr 2017 21:59:01 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58796 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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"Watch your step Odo. We're at war with your people. This is no time for a changeling pride demonstration on the promenade."
That's some pretty good, deep stuff coming from Quark. A1
Kang - Mon, 10 Apr 2017 06:43:23 EST ID:bJrisuWk No.58797 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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his name is laas yo
Herbert Rossoff - Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:36:26 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58798 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I figured I had the name wrong, sounded like Oz
Ensign Miral Paris - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:58:22 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58805 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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DS9: Tacking into the Wind

Holy shit, so much is happening. Season 5, 6, and 7 have been so great. When the episodes are focused on the dominion war and the drama surrounding it, they are pretty much always A-A+ episodes. And now, in season 7, all of the character arcs are fully developed and it's just amazing the way they're coming together. The writing is brilliant. I've got a massive boner right now. I've seen the final episode, but not everything that leads up to it, and it's all so great.
Darien Wallace - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 05:07:12 EST ID:bJrisuWk No.58806 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Dude I'm so glad you're enjoying it, I love ds9 and only watched it for the first time like 2 or 3 years ago. since them I've watched it multiple times on netflix.

Last year I broke my fucking tv (it was really nice) cause I was on drugs and kai winn is the ultimate bitch.
Weyoun 7 - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:50:01 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58809 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>VOY Pathfinder

This was said in another topic, but while we think we want to be the Kirk or Picards in reality we'd be the Barclays who live alone with out pets and write our own self-insert fanfiction. Though even he has his moments. And even despite his awkwardness, someone introduced them to their sister in law who also liked cats.

...wouldn't that cat died from licking that chocolate ice cream though?
Darien Wallace - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:28:43 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.58810 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>DS9 The Maquis

It had been a while, and I remembered Quark's "cost of peace" speech as slightly more eloquent. But the central point is pretty good. The Maquis are divisive in Trek, because people tend to fall into pro/con camps. Either they're terrorists, and they don't like them, or they are freedom fighters, and right. This episode does something I really like about Trek and science fiction in general: The situation is widely applicable to real life, but it's also unique enough to not be obvious template work. The key that I hadn't noticed before is that it's less about the Maquis being right or wrong, but more about them making mistakes. That's one thing Quark nails on the head: The Maquis have no understanding of the advantages they have, and play them away with brash action.

>being on drugs
>watching Kai Winn

Jesus, I hope it wasn't psychedelics.

I like Barclay. And Tapestry showed us even Picard could have been a Barclay (if you trust Q, which is a whole topic on its own). I do think VOY went kind of overboard with his neurotic side, but that's a thing VOY just seemed to kind of... do. But I like Barclay. One point of TNG was that everyone was TOO perfect. Nobody believes that people would only use the holodeck for all the chaste nonsense that the TNG crew used it for. I liked how he wasn't treated with disrespect, even when people obviously wanted to, and had a reason to. I liked how his little holodeck fantasy was treated as just that, a fantasy, with the concern being about his mental health.

And VOY kind of made his neurosis more pervasive, and more permanent. He's still not completely thrown under the bus, and obviously competent and slightly more confident. But yeah, I also kind of identify with him.
Subcommander Almak - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:45:58 EST ID:n8McU5oH No.58811 Ignore Report Quick Reply
that's dogs who get poisoned by chocolate
although I don't think it's _good_ for cats I don't think chocolate is that _bad_ for them compared to dogs
r-e-b-a-r-t - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:11:47 EST ID:PvVU0zuN No.58812 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I wouldn't compare Barclay to alternate Picard in Tapestry. As Picard himself states, that man is bereft of passion and imagination, whereas Barclay despite his crippling lack of self confidence has a healthy fantasy life and is a good engineer.
Legate Porania - Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:51:54 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58815 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Watching "Mind's Eye" and I wonder, what if all the characters played by Silik's actor actually are Silik, engaged in deeply covert temporal cold war operations?
Prosecutor Orak - Sat, 15 Apr 2017 19:56:50 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58850 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>VOY Blink of the Eye

This was an okay episode. Questioning Janeway's decision to even come near the planet in the first place aside, this was an okay episode. It wasn't really bad, but nothing remotely exceptional. It was Trek being Trek. Comfy Trek.
Grimp - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 05:33:05 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58856 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Since I finished DS9, I decided to finally give Voyager a fair shake.
I'm into Episode 4 and honestly my only real complaints so far are Kes and Neelix(obviously).
I mean at this point at least, Neelix isn't that bad, but he's Neelix. I was thinking earlier, it's really stupid the amount of trust they put into him so quickly. I mean at least with the Maquis, they know that they all have the same goal, which is to somehow make it back. But they know nothing about Neelix and his intentions. Kes just kinda seems helpless. And yes, Neelix seems like a clueless simpleton, but how could they really know for sure. I mean, I know he's an idiot, but how do they know?

Also, I found this picture google searching Neelix and it was one of the first ones. It looks like a promo picture or something like that. It's fucking creepy, wtf..
William T Riker - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:34:57 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58862 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Kotan Pa'Dar - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:58:10 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58863 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>DS9 S07E08 - The Siege of AR-558

I think Ensign Tuco is a pretty cool guy. Eh snorts ketracel white tight tight tight and doesn't afraid of anything.

On a side note, this is my first run through of the full series of DS9, I had only watched various recommended episodes out of order before. Now that I'm in the final season it's really hitting me how good the full series arc really is.
Kotan Pa'Dar - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:03:27 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58864 Ignore Report Quick Reply
holy shit this episode also has Will Robinson from Lost in Space? lol

nb for double post
Grimp - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 13:31:26 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58867 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Neelix... What was in that soup? I feel funn--.......
Grimp - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:55:01 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58868 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Voy-Eye of the Needle
I'm starting to feel a bit of attachment to the crew. This episode was pretty brutal. I can only imagine the morale for the bridge crew to suddenly think they have a way back, then have it dashed when they find out they'd be going to the past. And then to find out their messages may not have even been sent because the Romulan died. It's hard to believe they aren't all totally devastated.
Grand Nagus Zek - Sun, 16 Apr 2017 15:49:44 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58869 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>> It's hard to believe they aren't all totally devastated.
Oh man you'll love what's in store for them then. Eye of the Needle is like the softball of their getting kicked in the nads over a false hope of getting home. They dangle that carrot throughout the show, and each time they ratchet it up a bit and make everyone suffer more. Enjoy!
Guinan - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:18:11 EST ID:4X53I0XV No.58873 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Neelix Cosby

The whole Kes relationship makes so much more sense now
Seskal - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 09:51:33 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.58876 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: VOY really suffers from this design-by-comittee style of writing. I'm working my way through DS9 right now (about to start House of Quark, oh yeah!) and together with what I learned from SFDebris reviews, one thing stands out: They're kind of flying by the seat of their pants, and it works an awful lot of the time. Stuff like Weyoun simply being written for a good actor, and then becoming an iconic recurring character through the magic of making shit up.

VOY is very obviously much more of a list-checking show. We need Maquis for tension. Check, done. They need a colourful, local guide. Check, done. The reason they trust Neelix so quickly is because they're supposed to. Neelix was slated as a buddy of the crew from day one, and that attitude seeps into the writing. Same with the Maquis joining the crew, Janeway being a strong leader who takes no shit, etc. etc. VOY really suffers from characters being written to fit a purpose rather than being written as characters. Occasionally TNG suffers from this as well, in those characteristic early episodes where the crew is just a little TOO sanctimonious about their shiny Roddenberry future.

Wesley is probably the best example. Most people don't like Wesley because he doesn't feel real. He's an image of the ideal child as imagined by an oldfashioned, conservative (not politically, but as in opposing change) grandfather... which is exactly what Gene was by then. He very obviously acts to please the ideas of the writers, and people around him do the same. Like that episode where he's right about something, and the script demands that people are dismissive of it because it enhances the ennui of Wesley. Except they're people who are normally open and supportive of everything he says and does.

Well, VOY is written almost entirely like that. So we're stuck with an alien fry cook who would be dropkicked into the brig on any other show within five minutes of being introduced. And a Captain who is the Trek variant of Cersei Lannister, because the script demands she is never, ever wrong. Or vulnerable. Or even not in the spotlight for more than half an episode. It all adds up to make the Voyager crew just... not quite human. In fact, the hologram, the Borg, and the Vulcan seem the most human in the entire show, because the writers interpreted those traits as "actually has characters flaws and reasonable motivations". Though, even there it seeps in. The number of times the Doctor asks to have some subroutine deleted after some incident is worrying. Then again, because of how fleshed out the character is, it's possible to accept it as part of his self-aggrandizing nature.

That said, I've started hating Neelix less because his incessant insecurities, lying, and other crap actually make him a borderline interesting character when they manage to write a decent episode about him. I'd rather look at Neelix wrestle with his inner demons than at Kim trying to make it through a social gathering without embarrassing himself. I do think that episode where Neelix gets caught up in a drug deal due to his own stupidity is one of my favorite VOY episodes, and it made me really feel for the little trashrat.
Senator Pardek - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:08:03 EST ID:FnFcSTDu No.58877 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think Voyager's writing by committee is the source of almost all it's ills. A lot of the characters flip between episodes. Janeway is fucking insane. Chipotle is a pushover but Neelix is the best example.

See it's always implied strongly that he's a resourceful survivor and actually got his shit together. Yet most of the episodes we see him in he's useless. I always had to suspend disbelief and you spend about 90% of the episodes just making this assumption that hes good in all the off screen stuff. But then in some episodes he's actually pretty competent, handles himself okay in a fight and keeps up with starfleet and then occasionally he even shows that he plays the bumbling up to get people off guard, I feel like the latter two is a better reflection of the Neelix that was supposed to be but that writing by committee gave him way too many "this is stuff out of his depth" episodes and not enough "struggling with his demons". Every character needs to overcome adversity and I think they spent a lot of time fucking up his adversity and only really got the hang of him in later seasons when they made him face personal problems and shortcomings and so didn't have to rely on him being a fuckwit to give him conflict.
Dr. Antaak - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 12:23:34 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58879 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>DS9 S07E12 "The Emperor's New Cloak"

These mirror episodes are bad, man. But hey, I always love more Brunt! And super gay worthless whiny bitch.
Michael Sullivan - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:29:47 EST ID:vhe/UV6p No.58889 Ignore Report Quick Reply

They are bad. It's a shame, especially considering Crossover is so good.
Latha Mabrin - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:30:07 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58890 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In like the 4th episode Chipotle is already annoying as fuck. He suggests not scanning the bodies in the caves because he assumes they're buried with his own half assed cultural traditions. When I heard him say that, it just sounded so fake, and projected, that I got pissed off. Then Janeway is just like "well okay, don't wanna butthurt the fake native guy" and they go in blind and ignorant and put the away team in possible danger because of his silly beliefs. Fuckin A.
Michael Sullivan - Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:19:35 EST ID:vhe/UV6p No.58891 Ignore Report Quick Reply

>Occasionally TNG suffers from this as well, in those characteristic early episodes where the crew is just a little TOO sanctimonious about their shiny Roddenberry future.

Wesley is probably the best example. Most people don't like Wesley because he doesn't feel real. He's an image of the ideal child as imagined by an oldfashioned, conservative (not politically, but as in opposing change) grandfather... which is exactly what Gene was by then. He very obviously acts to please the ideas of the writers, and people around him do the same. Like that episode where he's right about something, and the script demands that people are dismissive of it because it enhances the ennui of Wesley. Except they're people who are normally open and supportive of everything he says and does.

tell me about it. that episode in which they unfreeze those poor 20th century humans and picard basically gives a sermon about how morally superior and advanced humanity has become. that and the wall street guy is basically a caricature of a greedy, materialistic 80s guy preoccupied with status and power, although they do even things out a bit when he calls the Romulan's bluff. It's not so terrible, but they do talk far too much in those first two seasons about "oh we're so wonderful now and we've overcome so much, compared to our terrible ancestors who we look at with nothing but contempt which makes no sense. because we're in the future, you see, and we're constantly aware of that, hmm yes, future utopian vision we live in, marvellous."

And they did that with the Wesley character on more than one occasion.
"Not now Wes...wait you've got it!"

"Wesley you should be on the transport to the academy"
"But look at this."
"That's it! We're saved!"
Belongo - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:53:57 EST ID:vhe/UV6p No.58897 Ignore Report Quick Reply

DS9 Blaze of Glory

Eddington is a great character. At first he just seems like a good officer, which I guess is the point, as you never see the betrayal coming. You get used to him in seasons 3/4, which makes the betrayal more impactful, then in season 5 he's depicted as a fugitive who sees himself as a hero leading people in a great cause, then it turns out he really believed in that cause. Just another multi-faceted character among many on this show.
Christopher Brynner - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:59:32 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58898 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That's my preferred head-cannon

Also: Braxton in VOY wears a colorful uniform, and Daniels wears black.
Daniels is Temporal Section 31
Christopher Brynner - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 12:38:05 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58899 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I'm watching VOY right now, again, made it past Season 4 which is extra terrible due to them switching to UPN, I think.
These shows all suffer from Brannon and Braga pushing their personal egocentric bullshit into it.
Every Brannon and Braga Trek has the same bunch of episodes, which we tend to call Trope episodes, and some of them are, but a lot are specifically BnB ego episodes with the excuse of being Trope episodes.
I just got up, so I'll maybe come back later with episode examples of what I mean here. But needless to say I do a /wooo/ chant: GET YOUR SHIT IN, because these same themes are in these episodes, BnB writing themselves in and fellating their generation as all Baby Boomers MUST do.

One thing I've noticed this time is actually how much Neelix sucking is due to the fact that the entire premise of the show is Battlestar Galactica level grim, and yet, it was the 90s and you really didn't want to put off all the drunk and stoned trekkies by being too dark.
However, so many standard trek-defining themes are fucking bleak-- and Voyager has real problems with a kind of yoyo, they go TOO DARK and then have to pull way back or else it's hard to believe they don't all commit suicide.
Like, I got fucked up on DXM the other day, and it went through that last stretch of Season 4, and it's all super fucking dark shit presented poorly, like the Hunters episodes, where there's the total stupidity of having a race of predators be big bumbling idiots, but also they are gutting people and subjecting them to psychological terror and mind control and shit-- then they culminate this by the season opener of 5, where they are in The Void and they all fucking crack due to boredom, and I just started uncontrollably laughing and nearly passed out, because it was all so fucking absurd and ridiculous, especially considering that they should already be at this stage two years previous-- long boring space travel with no hope, broken up only by misery and loss, and new terrors.

But anyway, I got off track-- Neelix. In all of this, he's supposed to be a Lovable Tramp who fakes it til he makes it-- a survivor based on 1930s hobos, comical but will cut your throat if he needs to.
He's supposed to be endearing and charming so he can con you. Which the Nekrid Expanse episode highlights.
And they did SO MUCH to fix his bubbly stuffed animal character by showing that it's PTSD-induced. He survived fucking Hiroshima and being next-to-homeless in the most cutthroat part of the galaxy. So of course, he doesn't want to fucking talk about it or think about it or even spend one more minute of his life crying and hating.
Which, you know, is how people who survived WW2 are/were. I know my grandparents were all like that. Children in the depression, turned 18 just in time to fight Germans and Japs in the fucking mud, only to find mass graves and stuff.
Go home and act like it never happened, because no one at home understands, and life was hard enough before you left, and you just don't want it to have happened at all.

But see, if you do that on a show about never seeing your family again, and losing people and your soul along the way-- SO in that light, of COURSE an exec at the network is going to be like "Hey, Brannon, lighten this shit the fuck up, we're losing the stoned people" because it's the fucking 90s and people were happy and employed and life was pretty fucking decent for most people. A lot of optimism in people's lives. I know, I was poor as shit and even I had a Future with a Career and the Dream and all that shit.

They just went so fucking far with that show. It was a show with Bipolar. Either retard-cheerful or soul-crushingly bleak.
That Neelix Suicide show is more about Atheism than it is about survivor guilt, and they were doing a lot of that horror movie shit in DS9 at the time as well. Creepy fucking morbid shit. The Outer Limits heritage of trek, I think, and you can really alienate an audience with overbearingly creepy shit, out of fucking nowhere.

Honestly, I've done some drugs in my time, and have had some bad trips, but fucking hell, the shit these people deal with and it never phases them-- like those aliens who put everyone to sleep and terrify them in dreams until they eat their energy and they die as withered husks.
Organ Thieving convoys of Freddy Kruger monsters.
I mean, the one with the Scientists who invisibly torture and murder the crew for medical experimentation-- what the FUCK was that? How would you not, every day thereafter for the rest of your fucking days as Captain have every deck microscanned and fire at all the walls with phasers and strip everyone to their bare ass and cavity search them every single fucking day twice a day afer something like that happening?

If I had a bad dream like that I'd be fucked up for months, much less in real life.
DaiMon Nunk - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:24:43 EST ID:n8McU5oH No.58902 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>due to them switching to UPN,
they were always UPN
Paramount Makes A Network With New Trek As The Centerpiece was, like, half of the fucking point of UPN
Christopher Brynner - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:46:58 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58904 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Sorry, we never had UPN here, so we got it through syndication on other networks. I think it was either Fox or CBS at the time.
DS9 iirc was on NBC [in my locale] when I was little, when it was first aired.

Well, something changed though from season 4 to 5 because the whole tone and production value of the show is different, maybe they changed out a lot of the crew or something.
Ulani Belor - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:14:45 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58908 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It was actually between Season 3 and 4, when they brought on Seven, there was a major and conscious effort to change the direction of the show. Also, Jeri Taylor left as show-runner after Season 4, when the whole show was really her brainchild. So there is a very distinct 'Taylor Voyager' and a "Berman Voyager,' but it's hard to say where the line clearly falls. It would be easiest to say that 1-3 is before, 5-7 is after, and 4 is a transitional period.
Prosecutor Orak - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:16:53 EST ID:NUbxvEoE No.58914 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Voyager improves after Season 4 because they get rid of wet blanket Kes and bring in a sexy Spock.
Mobara - Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:33:27 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58915 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>trading Diana Troi for Data

Honestly, fuck Data-characters. Technically, he's Spock 2, and Brent is amazing, but christ, do something else.
Christopher Brynner - Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:27:49 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58917 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I felt the same way towards Seven, but she kinda grew on me.
Major Rakal - Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:23:41 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58919 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>DS9 "The Way of the Warrior"

REMOVE YAMOK remove yamok

you are worst cardassian. you are the cardassian idiot you are the cardassian smell.
Q - Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:20:58 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58920 Ignore Report Quick Reply
He's Spock New and improved.
Spock was great, but Data is probably the greatest trek character of all time.
But yeah, the other characters that fill that role, like T'Pol, Tuvok, and Seven fucking suck.
Willie Hawkins - Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:34:07 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58921 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Jeez, greatest ever, really? Data isn't even top 5 for me. Maybe not even top 10. What am I not getting? I feel like I've got a chromosome missing or something.
Q - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:04 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58922 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Well I may have been exaggerating slightly, and I can't say for certain who my favorite is, but he's definitely one of the best in my book. He's just such a dynamic character. He can do it all.
Lt. Maxwell Burke - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:06:48 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58923 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Just out of curiosity, who are your top 5 then?
Data is in the top 3 for me. Only a bald guy and a guy with pointed ears are superior.
Jimmy - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:30:02 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.58924 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Well actually what I mean to say is like out of bridge crew he's like top 3 material. If we're including secondary/supporting characters from DS9 (for example) he probably gets bumped down to top 5. Garak/Dukat/Damar are easily my top 3 if those all characters are included, not necessarily in that order.
Captain Paul Rice - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:33:33 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58925 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Watching VOY Millenium Gate episode

bretty gud

I feel like every time I see this series, I feel like half the episodes suck, but it's the opposite half each time-- ones I thought sucked last time are good this time and vis versa
Willie Hawkins - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:39:28 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58926 Ignore Report Quick Reply
the problem is the trifecta from TOS takes up 3 slots, in no real order. but bones kirk and spock are all too endeared to me to not include them. maybe it's cause TOS was the only one i watched as a kid? nostalgia bullshit? i think it's cause i got to see them fleshed out in some great movies, unlike TNG crew, so they're more magnetic.

anyway after that there's only room for picard and either one of the DS9 cardies or one of the catsuits (seven or kira, not titpole).
Captain Paul Rice - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 01:04:03 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58927 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think of Tuvok as more of a Worf 2.0, Vulcan Worf.
He can't even do probability, it's pathetic. But he is a bretty gud Stoic Warrior.

Now, my top five?

Captain Archer
Commander Shran
Movie Kirk/Spock/McCoy

Fuck you I'm taking six.
Vedek Bareil - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 04:49:00 EST ID:vhe/UV6p No.58929 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Biddle Coleridge - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 04:51:05 EST ID:NNu0rHAt No.58930 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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T'Pol, oh man those titties
Jimmy - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 04:56:05 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.58931 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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her tits are nice but the rest of her body is like a 10 year old boy
Biddle Coleridge - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 07:05:16 EST ID:NNu0rHAt No.58933 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Idk man she pretty fine, if that's a 10 year old boy then sign me up for personal sessions with rascal picard in the holodeck
Kathryn Janeway - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 07:13:14 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.58934 Ignore Report Quick Reply

They are two thirds of the characters who made Voyager worth watching, and the other one is the EMH. In other words, a technological lifeform discovering what it means to be human. They just replaced "logic" with "arrogance", but otherwise he's a shoe-in for the "Data character". But if you think they suck, I don't want to know what you think about Harry Kim or Janeway.

And Data is not Spock 2.0. Spock didn't have a shred of doubt about his identity. He was an outside observer of the human condition, yes. He was logical and shunned emotion, yes. But Data is defined by his quest to attain humanity. Spock doesn't even have an equivalent to that.

Odo is more of a Spock 2.0, really. He's an outside observer who finds human(oid) behaviour puzzling, he's stoic and rigid, and he eventually turns out to be stuck between two worlds. And while he starts out with the standard question about identity, DS9 kind of turns that on its head by answering that question at the start of season 3. After that, Odo doesn't have to wonder what he is and where he's from. He's a member of a race of fascists, and his drive for "justice" is his alien space fascism manifesting in a relatively benign manner.

You know, in retrospect that's maybe not a clever subversion, but definitely one needed in the whole "character searching for identity" thing Trek likes to do. While I like Seven, I really dislike how the entire show pushed for her to become more "human". The fact that she's an icecold bitch doesn't mean she isn't human, and I prefer icecold bitch Seven over "human" Seven. Even the protein shakes she drinks instead of eating real food seem legit when the definition of "real food" is whatever hair pasta or giant fly testicles the overbearing trashrat in the kitchen has managed to defile with his shit-stained paws.
Jimmy - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 07:34:55 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.58935 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah lol, honestly I think 90% of the bridge crew on voyager is either really bad or just boring. Belanna and Paris I can take or leave, EMH is great, but the rest I just can go out the airlock as far as I'm concerned. Actually, Tuvok is cool, I don't really have beef with him.
But you're right. Data isn't a perfect Spock 2.0, Odo probably is closer. My meaning was more that at the time, he was Spock 2.0. He was basically "the next generation" Spock, with a more dynamic character meaning they could do a lot more with him story-wise. But really, besides his cold, logical, and calculated demeanor they don't much in common.
I've just always loved all the Data-centric episodes, and I love his storyline. He'll always has a place high in my heart.
Vedek Bareil - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:44:58 EST ID:vhe/UV6p No.58936 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Yes, Odo is more like Spock, although there's an awkwardness to the character that you never see with Spock. Spock is very sure most of the time, whereas Odo has a lot of doubt and insecurity.
Captain Paul Rice - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:35:32 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58937 Ignore Report Quick Reply
but you're wrong.
He is explicitly half-human and TOS and the Movies spend inordinate amounts of time using Bones and Kirk as "bad influence friends" that he pretends to be above while totally seeking his human half.
I mean, when he is reborn, and is relearning his life in Voyage Home, his mom tells him exactly that he has always had this human half and it's a part of him and blahblah.
It's not as hamfisted as Data or Odo or Seven outright expositing shit like "I SEEK TO EXPLORE MY HUMANITY" as actual lines almost every fucking time they appear in an episode.

I think you're just not a very observant dude.
And that's fine, it's probably why so many of you hate Enterprise so much, it's rare for them to be that vulgar about the themes.

I mean, come on, how many times do we need to do Pinnochio while each time outright shouting "HERE IS A WOODEN BOY, HE WANTS TO BE A REAL BOY, ISN'T THAT HEARTWARMING? WE CAN DO SO MANY LAZY EPISODES WITH THIS"

It's like putting in a retarded character so you don't have to think very hard when you write the lines, plus, added bonus, the autism cases from AV Club like you and me will feel like we have our own little Mary Sue in every series.
Seamus - Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:26:30 EST ID:JvbkB0eA No.58942 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>the definition of "real food" is whatever hair pasta or giant fly testicles the overbearing trashrat in the kitchen has managed to defile with his shit-stained paws.
Noah Lessing - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:04:26 EST ID:3bunwxei No.58949 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>VOY Fury

I have no idea what actually happened in this episode. Older pissed-off Kes from an alternate timeline tries to murder everyone but fails. And Janeway and Tuvok were aware of this all along? What?
Darlene Kursky - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:12:52 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.58950 Ignore Report Quick Reply
You're right, Data is a Spock-alike. I just don't think they're very similar characters aside from filling the same roles. For lack of a better word, Data is much more submissive. Data looks up to the rest of the crew for their humanity.

But yeah, I was also always fond of Data. The character was handled well in the show, and Brent Spiner played him well, adding loads of mannerisms and such that really made the character come alive. It's this blind spot in Trek, where I now realize I never thought about the fact that you sometimes see characters acting in wildly different roles, and often against themselves. Data and Lore are a good example. And I think it's great how Lore actually isn't Evil Data, but basically a character entirely on his own. Brash, arrogant, sadistic, all these thing Data doesn't even have a concept of. I always loved how he threatens Wesley, when Crusher opposes him. Lore has this casualness to his sadism that's extremely intimidating.

Yeah, Spock is very self-assured. It's central to his character, and McCoy often mistakes it for arrogance.

You. Again.

Look mate, I get that Spock is half human. I get that this figures into the character. But with Data, it was central to the character. With Spock, it was more like "he's half human? I never would have guessed". Part of the character, but not central. For Odo, as far as I'm aware, he never explicitly seeks to explore his humanity (or humanoidity). Even when he gets locked into humanoid form by the Great Link he only adapts begrudgingly, and as little as possible. The exploration Odo is undergoing is that of an outsider, trying to fit in with others. He was always a character stuck between two worlds, with his innate suspicion of others, but his moral opposition to the way his people dealt with that feeling. Part of the reason I'm appreciating Odo these days is because he's a moral individual who's at odds with his own morality. He's a stickler for justice, and has this reputation, but we see him constantly balking at rules and regulations applied to him.

I get the feeling that Voyager is, once again, tainting the rest of Trek by association. Same with technobabble. Voyager was the show that threw five "MUST EXPLORE HUMANITY" episodes at Seven per season. And at the Doc, too. But because he was flawed, at least it didn't have that paternalistic tone to it. And while it's certainly the central theme to Data they were also on new ground with him. It also cropped up tangentically to other themes, instead of the Captain sitting him down like some sort of overpromoted therapist, and telling him he needs to become more human. It's not my favorite episode, but the one where this emotionally damaged kid latches onto Data is a good example. Data never sought it out. That's just a situation that happened to him that highlights his difference from the rest. Or that episode with the Sheliak and the robot fetishist hottie. Usually, there's something else going on that allows Data to explore his humanity, rather than the writer turning to the audience VOY style and announcing that Pinoccio will learn an important lesson today.

Also, I think I'm plenty observant and that you're just a little presumptious.

Also also, Enterprise legit sucked.
Darlene Kursky - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:17:01 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.58951 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, that's about it, as far as I recall.

Pretty typical example of an episode that only works the first time you see it. And then only barely. Kind of a shitty sendoff for Kes, and probably the reason why Jennifer Lien is crazy, now.
Simon Tarses - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:05:46 EST ID:dviAa10l No.58952 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Odo is more of an observer. He notices certain things about humanoids but doesn't always understand or like them. He has a particular way of doing things and can't fathom why anyone would want to do things any other way, so when Starfleet tries to get him to cooperate with them he doesn't like it, particularly when that idiot chief of security comes on the station in season 1. That's one thing that stands out about DS9 as opposed to TNG, in TNG everyone (even Barclay) is super competent, smart, on-the-ball, and yet in DS9 we have this incompetent hick for a security chief lazing about at Ops while Sisko, Kira and Bashir are stuck in the Wadi game. I love Odo's remark "Is it Starfleet Policy to push a few buttons!?"
Dr. Reyga - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:54:03 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58954 Ignore Report Quick Reply
cool opinions.
I really like how you insist I am the arrogant one, when you're saying things like "I think I'm plenty observant" when we've covered elsewhere and repeatedly that you don't know anything whatsoever about Rome, and yet insist you know "enough" to tell me I'm wrong, even though I've shown my actual work.
Voyager is a good show, Enterprise is a better show.
TNG is not my favorite, but if you really like it, that's fine, bucko.

Personally, it's easily as hamfisted as Voyager, you just hate Voyager and notice it's flaws more.

Out of curiosity
Aussie/Kiwi or Britbong?
It's important, because I'm compiling this kind of data to challenge some longstanding feelings I've had about the two "mate" cultures, and I'd like to be proven wrong once in a while about the group I'm thinking of.
Guinan - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:46:38 EST ID:4X53I0XV No.58955 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Enterprise is worst trek

Thankfully the last episode confirms the entire series was just a semihistorical holonovel cooking sim
DoBa - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 15:20:44 EST ID:4AVvVn4m No.58956 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think Enterprise is better. Archer would have gone home in the first episode and took a shot of Alderdebran whiskey with Shran
Darlene Kursky - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:43:27 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.58959 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Dude, you're laughable. Stop dragging down the quality of this board. nb
Quark - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 20:38:43 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58960 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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You first, faggot. Stop telling me what I can think and what opinions I can have.

You offered your opionions and tastes, I offered mine, and the reasons. Now you're just telling me to shut up because you don't like my opinions.
Let other people not like shit.
I'm not telling you you AREN'T ALLOWED to like TNG better than Enterprise. That's YOUR CHOICE.
I can say I think TNG sucks, and that's fine. But I didn't even do that. It's just not my favorite, it's my least favorite.

So go fuck yourself, autismo
Noah Lessing - Fri, 21 Apr 2017 23:00:37 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58966 Ignore Report Quick Reply
All I know is that for the past couple days you've been keeping two threads bumped with autistic screeching about how infallibly correct you are in matters of opinion. It's not SLAYER vibes bro. This isn't /pss/ or /pol/, we're not here to debate, we're here to jerk off about Star Trek and get high. Engage moar and chill out.
Tiron - Sat, 22 Apr 2017 00:24:15 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58967 Ignore Report Quick Reply
take your meds shin
Quark - Sat, 22 Apr 2017 03:37:12 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.58968 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I was just talking about my deep theories from my viewing of Voyager. I'm in season 6 now actually.
And right now, I'm taking a break to watch the three AbramsTrek movies.
If you tolerate my opinions, and don't shit on ME for them, I will promise you that I will respect yours as well.
Tiron - Sat, 22 Apr 2017 05:00:34 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.58970 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>VOY The 37's
Voyager discovers a planet inhabited with thousands of people who are ancestors of humans that were kidnapped for slavery in the 1900's.
Watching this episode and thinking that it was kinda dumb of them to continue when they have found a planet full of humans. Just weighing the odds, they have a good chance at a good life, and can help further this culture of humans who is behind them technology wise, or they can continue trying to get home which seems like a very slim chance of success. Also, I was surprised that nobody stayed.
Does the prime directive say that you can't intervene when it's a civilization of your own people that were taken hundreds of years ago? I mean obviously Voyager doesn't have the luxury of worrying about the prime directive a lot of the time, but I feel like in this case, if I were in their shoes, I'd feel some kind of duty to those people. Did they even share technological data with them?
Chulak - Sat, 22 Apr 2017 13:26:38 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.58976 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>Finally finished DS9 all the way through

What a ride, folks.

Anyway this series has my favorite characters outside of TOS, and I think I'll be revisiting it the most. It was quite a feat to endear itself to me more than TNG but here we are. That ending montage of all the memories really hit me in the feels.

These shows are so much more than I'm used to in terms of sheer amount of content. 7 seasons, all with 26 60-minute episodes??? Binge watching Breaking Bad is one thing, but at the end of it all I've just realized I've spent months with these characters, watching their arcs unfold, and I'm really going to miss seeing what the next step will be.

Highlights include:

>Weyoun and Brunt, FCA

>Andrew Robinson, Marc Alaimo, and Casey Biggs, of course. The three main Cardies are, as I see mentioned on here all the time, just plain great characters. Damar especially - I will never not chuckle at "Kanar with Damar" or his "Oh well hellooooo!" when mocking Weyoun.

>Never liked Worf before but he levels all the way the fuck up in this series.

>I don't often see a lot of love for Kira on here, but she became one of my favorite characters after I expected to not like her. Easily my favorite female character in all of Star Trek.

>I hate Rom. I hate Nog. They have episodes here and there where their abilities and value are shown, but I just can't do it. I love Quark.

>Dare I say Sisko is my favorite captain? Picard easily held this rank before, and Kirk charms the pants off me, but seeing a Starfleet captain get caught up in the ethical dilemmas of wartime explored aspects of command that I hadn't seen before - maybe I just need to watch TNG again to set my head straight.
Noah Lessing - Sat, 22 Apr 2017 15:31:11 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.58981 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Power watching TOS again.

Do you guys prefer production order or air date order for watching TOS?

Personally I like the prod order much better, but the HD version in air date order is on Netflix so I'm kinda fucked. that being said I enjoy the SD originals more, I'm just lazy
Jal Culluh - Sun, 23 Apr 2017 07:46:49 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59002 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I have never hated a character in Star Trek more than Neelix right now.
It's very close to unbearable how bad he is while he's acting all jealous of Paris and Kes.
If I was Paris and that pantry rat threw food on my I would have decapitated him in front of everyone in the mess hall. For fucks sake. And now I have to sit through a whole episode of them making it up while they're stuck in a cave or something.

lol... forgive my angry rant but it's a little beyond annoying that the writers thought this would be good TV, and that they decided to drag Trek through the mud with this garbage. I feel like I can't call myself a real fan if I haven't watched all of the episodes though, so I gotta do Voy. I know there are good ones, just haven't really seen any yet.

When does Voy get good, what are the best seasons?
Stonn - Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:27:18 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59007 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>It's very close to unbearable how bad he is while he's acting all jealous of Paris and Kes.
Thankfully, if you've seen that episode, you've reached peak Bad Neelix. I think everyone realized how annoying that plotline was, and after that he backs off for a bit and they pretty much drop the Kes/Neelix relationship plotline a few episodes later. His character redeems himself and starts to become interesting again in about half a season in "Fair Trade."

>>When does Voy get good, what are the best seasons?
You're almost at the point of the shift.
Deanna Troi - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 00:58:35 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59021 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Cool, thx. I'm determined to get through Voy, and at this point there have been a few episodes that have shown a glimmer of promise, but that plotline was pretty much unbearable.
One thing that's throwing me off, is that I'm watching this after finishing DS9 and the contrast in the skill of the writing is so stark. DS9 had those brilliant character and political arcs, and at this point all that this show is, is episodic silliness. It's just "what kind of wacky misadventures will the Voyager crew find themselves in next time." Which I don't mind that concept because that's pretty much exactly what TOS and TNG are, but the writing is so shoddy at times.
They just waltz right into really dumb problems. Like "Oh hey, look! There's a swarm of unknown aliens in the middle of space. We've gathered a lot of information about them, but lets just fly right into it lol!" Not to mention that being in that swarm starts having drastic effects on Kes, and basically sends her into early puberty. And Janeway is still putting the welfare of the dumb space fish ahead of Kes.
Her behavior is just ridiculous, strange, and irrational sometimes. It makes Janeway come off as by far the most incompetent captain.
Pardon my still bitching about Voy. Like I said, I have seen glimmers of hope. It's just hard to follow up DS9 with Voy and not complain about it, at least for me, lol.
Natasha Yar - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:03:13 EST ID:bJrisuWk No.59022 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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just wait til you watch enterprise,
then you'll think back with fond memories of voyager
Deanna Troi - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:06:14 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59023 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I've already seen ENT, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Voy is at this point.
None of the characters were as poorly written. The only part of ENT that was anywhere near as bad as VOY so far was the Xindi arc, and that's only because it dragged on forever.
David Marcus - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 03:31:46 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59024 Ignore Report Quick Reply
If you don't just have fondness for the characters, you really got to look at the series another way, because that's kind of what it rides on. But you can ignore a lot of the characters and just think about each episode as an individual science fiction story, imagining the other crews in their places or whatever, and still get a lot out of it I think. Read it for the plot, not the characters; you either like them or don't.
Dejar - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:29:59 EST ID:Mw2ViAbq No.59030 Ignore Report Quick Reply

>Hoshi and Mayweather

>Not badly written
Deanna Troi - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:37:18 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59031 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>none were as poorly writtern
You're right though, Mayweather was pretty terrible. But you can't even compare that to how bad creepy jealous Neelix is. Or idiotic fake native american chipotle. Or totally incompetent Janeway.
David Marcus - Mon, 24 Apr 2017 15:50:59 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59042 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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T'Pau - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 03:16:24 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59066 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>VOY S2E11 Maneuvers
Holy shit, finally some god damn rationality! I've been so frustrated with how dumb most of the shit they're doing is, but finally they (Janeways) starts to think straight.
It took her 2 and a half fuckin seasons to realize that she's gonna have to change up her strategies.
She so damn rigid and inflexible that it's any wonder she survived this long.
Anyways, it's a nice change of pace for at least 1 episode to actually make sense. There were way too many that were just straight up out there retarded.
Lt. Reginald Barclay - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 05:43:44 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59067 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's my opinion, but you're not arguing against it because there is no argument against it. Chipotle and Neelix are by far the most poorly written characters. Neelix is an obnoxious idiot, thrown in by idiotic writers that for some reason thought he'd be a loveable idiot??
Even though he's a weird creeper that has some strange pedo relationship with Kes.
Chipotle's whole backstory and culture is straight up stupid and written by a fraudulent Native American, and is a complete joke. He does have his moments where he gives Janeway the forethought that she is severely lacking.
Janeway is by far the worst captain, I'd like to see someone make an argument against that, unless they completely ignore the first couple seasons there's no argument against it.
Belanna, Tuvok and Paris have grown on me. I've always loved EMH, but there's nothing nearly as fucking stupid as Neelix and Chipotle in any other bridge crew. Please tell me I'm wrong and how.
Ezri Dax - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 06:52:03 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.59068 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Janeway is by far the worst captain

That comes down to what you feel is worse. Duplicity, or Idiocy. Janeway was a Two-faced bastard that always twisted the rules to insure she was right, but I wouldn't call her stupid. Archer on the other hand...
Lt. Reginald Barclay - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 07:33:25 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59069 Ignore Report Quick Reply
How was Archer an idiot?
He was kinda brash, and he put his people at risk a few times, but he wasn't nearly as brash.
And yeah Janeway isn't stupid, but I meant that her inflexibility and stubbornness is really dumb in that it puts her in really stupid situations.
Archer isn't a genius by any means but he was exactly what was needed to get through all of the challenges that he faced. Janeway would have never been able to save Earth. She would have tried to play it safe instead of going after the Xindi weapon and would have sat there and watched Earth get destroyed, and then afterwards she would have made an announcement to the crew about how right she was to do that.
Lt. Reginald Barclay - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 07:43:00 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59070 Ignore Report Quick Reply
What I just noticed is that Janeway is by far the most selfish and egotistical captain.
I'd say that Picard and Sisko definitely have pretty big egos, but they always listen to counsel and are willing to flex their ideas to the situations around them, allowing input from other people. They will even break their own biggest values if the situation requires it. Deep seeded beliefs that are a huge part of their whole identity.
Archer is kinda brash and definitely has a ton of self confidence but I wouldn't exactly say he's conceited, or egotistical really. He can be caustic when he's dealing with people he disagrees with, but deep down he does take what they say to heart.
Janeway is just a rock who puts herself on a pedestal. She doesn't listen to any counsel except on rare occasions. She loves to tell her crew to fuck off if they question her decisions. She treats it like a dictatorship where her #1 is her bitch, not to share the burden of leadership, but to do work for her. She treats people poorly if they're a low rank, she basically imposes a caste system on her ship. If some ensign comes to picard with a question, he treats him with respect. Janeway acts like because of their rank their opinion doesn't matter whatsoever. She's basically a horrible person and a really bad leader. She kinda seems like someone who got their position through nepotism. She at least acts that way.
All this being said, she's starting to grow on me. But I can't help but think she's a shitty person. If she didn't do completely illogical shit so often, I would be able to dismiss that because then at least she could do her job, and maybe her attitude would contribute to doing her job well. But her incompetence combined with her arrogance and stubbornness makes a character that is extremely unlikeable.
Maybe she gets better later on but that's exactly how she has acted up to this point.
Only in the very last episode that I watched, S2E11, where she tried to negotiate a treaty with the Kazons, did she finally start making sense. That was basically only because she finally decided to listen to Chipotle. I can't help but think that a more competent captain would have come to the realization that considering they're in the middle of Kazon space with no end in sight, that' they'd have to make a fuckin deal with them to survive. But noooooo, Janeway thinks that for some reason violates starfleet principle. Fuckin idiot..
Ezri Dax - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 09:50:00 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.59071 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>How was Archer an idiot?

Kicking forward the Launch of the NX-01 before it had everything prepared is a big one.

Not scanning a planet before making planetfall, leading the landing party to become extremely fucked up by the natural drugs that were in the water.

Bring a dog on a diplomatic mission and letting it fuck around on the planet.

And those are just what I can think off off the top of my head.
Lt. Reginald Barclay - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:54:23 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59072 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Most of those amount to being brash and silly as opposed to being insane and incompetent like Janeway.
I'm definitely seeing archer with bias because I like him but it seems like his mistakes are forgivable because he's a bit of a loveable idiot. At least his heart is in the right place.
Janeway is an un loveable, cold, detached, egotistical, conceited woman who has good intentions but it's her negative personality aspects that make them unforgivable.
Lt. Cmdr. Dexter Remmick - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 13:27:52 EST ID:Ci8/tTBx No.59074 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think Archer is basically out of his depth. But I think that this works pretty well as a metaphor for humanity during ENT.

Even by season 4 both Archer and humanity have become important on the galactic scale but they're still little guys whose main significance is they repeatedly prove they're decent people. They've caught up a long way, their field testing has advanced tech and the Enterprise can even take a sustained pummeling from a Vulcan cruiser but at the same time they can't even dent it's shields. Archer as a captain still gets caught out a lot but he's getting caught out by advanced and tricky foes now, not by making rookie mistakes. Sure Picard would have solved the Vulcan problem in half an episode but season 1 archer would have died. I think by the end of season 7 ENT would have left humanity not great, but clearly on the path at high speed (probably above warp 6). Unfortunately we only got to the halfway mark so Humanity and subsequently Archer are just starting to come good.

Janeway meanwhile suffers from poor writing. I don't think she's an awful captain but she's awfully written and inconsistent and her first officer never once stands up to her with any meaningful effect. She has her redeeming sides and genuinely cares about a lot of stuff and she's definitely more competent than Archer but she's not a heavyweight like Picard who plays by the rules and wins or Sisko who gets a shittier hand than Picard and occasionally cheats.
Gregory Quinn - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 14:39:07 EST ID:/M7y7o2O No.59075 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's not that he is a total idiot personality wise it's just that he has no idea what the fuck he is doing on a starship because he quantum leaped there and has never been in space before
Senator Tal'aura - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 14:52:39 EST ID:gxxlaBgy No.59076 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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oh boy
Senator Tal'aura - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 15:13:57 EST ID:gxxlaBgy No.59077 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Enterprise sounds like a pretty fun show now..
Senator Tal'aura - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:08:43 EST ID:gxxlaBgy No.59078 Ignore Report Quick Reply

T'Pau - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 17:39:22 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59079 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It kinda is. If you don't overanalyze it, and take it too seriously, I think it's a really fun and funny show. I thoroughly love the crew. Hoshi is kinda bland milktoast, Mayweather is a shit, but that's just because he's uneblievably bland. Malcolm is fucking cool. I'd totally have him as my security officer. Same with Paris, chief engineer for sure. He reminds me of a Southern American Scotty. T'pol is kinda shitty compared to other Vulcans, but she has her moments, and her sexy scenes with Paris. And Phlox is fucking cool. He easily got the #2 spot for doctors right behind EMH.
If you take it as campy, it's fucking brilliant IMO. Also, the last episode doesn't exist.
But you can't analyze their actions too much because this is the VERY FIRST Earth starship going out to meet new people. All they knew were they Vulcans. And before long they start making friends and getting into squabbles with the Tellerites and the Andorians.
The arc and relationship between Shran and Archer through the series was super well done imo, and even when they're stuck in the Delphic Expanse, which is pretty much universally considered the worst part of the show, the crew still finds moments to shine and show that true potential that was sadly cut short.
I love the ENT crew. For me they all feel really authentic, and I think they did a great job of portraying Archer and the formation of the Federation.

And the Voyager crew is really starting to grow on me. I just don't like the way it was like written with a focus group style writing, and the fact that the writers didn't seem to think that Trekkies would analyze every single thing with an almost autistic attention to detail, lol. But I have a feeling by the time I finish Voyager, I'll have a deeper appreciation for it. It's just at this point I really, really hate neelix and janeway annoys the crap out of me. Chipotle honestly isn't too bad when he's not going on about the stupid native crap. Everyone else has grown on me a lot though. Even Tuvok.
For some reason I didn't like him when I had just seen sporadic episodes here and there, but now that i'm seeing development with him, and getting hit by his occasion deep truth bombs, I'm really starting to dig him.
T'Pau - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 18:38:52 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59080 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>Voy Threshold

Just when I thought Voy was finally turning it around and starting to get pretty good-Threshold..
Senator Tal'aura - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 18:55:27 EST ID:gxxlaBgy No.59081 Ignore Report Quick Reply

that episode is notorious and considered the worst trek episode of all time. i look forward to experiencing it.
Guinan - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 20:35:55 EST ID:rHM5lN3q No.59082 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I kinda feel like that episode single handedly killed Star Trek, wounding it mortally with its retardation
Captain Rixx - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:20:31 EST ID:lMsLfVYp No.59084 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I don't think you've seen Spock's Brain or Sub Rosa.
Guinan - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:56:55 EST ID:rHM5lN3q No.59085 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Those are both pretty retarded.. DS9 has a few that would qualify
Liquidator Brunt - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:13:00 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59086 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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You wanna talk about episodes that almost killed the franchise? Pic related. The triple-punch of a writers strike ending Season 2 of TNG with "Shades of Grey", unarguably the worst episode in the franchise, delaying the third season, at the same time that the Final Frontier came out, literally had people wondering if there was going to be a third season or another movie during that summer.

Threshold is now kind of universally seen as the worst episode of Trek, which is ok I guess if we just want VOY to be our eternal whipping boy, but it makes us forget some of the truly great stinkers in our history.
Corporal R Ryan - Thu, 27 Apr 2017 23:50:43 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59088 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'll protest on behalf of Spock's Brain. It wasn't great, it wasn't even the best “cheesy science fiction, and Kirk and Spock are there” episode, but it was decently entertaining. I'd give my vote to Shades of Grey, but I'm not sure I'd even call it an episode.

Anyway, I'm in the middle of VOY Dark Frontier now. Hot damn this is stupid.
Michael Sullivan - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 00:06:25 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.59089 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Colm Meaney made them change that thing from a Leprechaun. I guess he still has nightmares from Up the Long Ladder.
Michael Sullivan - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 00:07:56 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.59090 Ignore Report Quick Reply
If I recall, no one really thought that big about Threshold when it first came out. It was during the peak of bad Voyager and didn't seem THAT much worse then it's normal fare.
Harry Mudd - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:20:39 EST ID:gxxlaBgy No.59091 Ignore Report Quick Reply

sub rosa is awful, but still enjoyable in that way.

also, i liked "let he who is without sin."

yet to see spock's brain
Harry Mudd - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:38:14 EST ID:gxxlaBgy No.59092 Ignore Report Quick Reply

it is truly terrible, and moreso for the fact that it's not even really an episode, just a half-assed compilation of clips from the first two seasons with a half-assed storyline tacked on to make it seem like an episode. if there had actually been something truly bad, something of interest, it would have been good, but it's just a sort of non-episode.

it's strange considering that season 2 had so many good episodes, and the last two episodes, "Q Who," and that one with the stretegema guy and the faux-battle are two of TNG's best, and then they ended it with that..but then it could have been worse..
Leck - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 08:30:57 EST ID:U9OytMf9 No.59093 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Liquidator Brunt - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 16:53:15 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59097 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Naw he mostly is just very Irish and took it as a serious racial disparagement to have anything to do with leprechauns.

Sure, Season 2 had tons of great episodes! They only did 'Shades of Grey' because they had their backs against the wall; they had to come up with at least one more show, and because of the strike, they couldn't hire a single writer to write the script, so the production staff just had to make up some garbage internally.

Really Final Frontier was more to blame for the sense that the franchise was done, but Shades of Grey certainly helped. It's hard to get over a movie about emotional Vulcans who love god-octopuses and singing row-row-row-your-boat for at least 95% of the screen time of the movie.
Private W Woods - Fri, 28 Apr 2017 22:58:42 EST ID:3bunwxei No.59098 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Man, season 3 of Terms of Service really wasn't that great. It really felt like everyone was phoning it in.
DaiMon Tarr - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 04:44:41 EST ID:4aT5dP6u No.59099 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I actually liked Final Frontier. I liked the "row-row-your-boat" scene," Spock's jetboots, and the scene where he gets to the source of their pain, Shatner "I need my pain" speech.

If they had no writers that makes sense. It's not bad watching clips from the show so far, but it's just not...good.
Captain Braxton - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 09:01:04 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.59100 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Legate Porania - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 14:34:30 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59104 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I really like FF too, but it is just objectively quite awful in a lot of aspects (almost all of which are exclusively Shatner's fault. The decks going from 100-1? The 'rock monsters' or lack thereof? And I mean the whole concept of going on a search for god is so questionable. As I remember one of the production staff complaining after the fact 'what did we think we were going to find?')

I generally don't see eye to eye with other Trekkies on what's good and bad though, since I think TMP is the best movie and like VOY and ENT, so I also keep info about what 'the herd' thinks about each production in my head. And I was just mentioning that it did in fact almost kill the franchise.

BWW, Time's Arrow; the best time the Enterprise crew goes to past-San Francisco (out of the multitude of options)
Ambassador Thoris - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:36:34 EST ID:TWF7blF5 No.59108 Ignore Report Quick Reply

The Motion Picture could well be the best movie. It has more ideas, Wrath of Khan, as much as I love it, is more of a film for fans, but The Motion Picture is a better science fiction film. The Voyage Home is my favourite of the films, though I also like First Contact a lot.

Time's Arrow is great, if I recall it features Marc Alaimo (Dukat) as a poker player. It's a great period episode, and I love that the story is like something that might be found in science fiction of the time.
DaiMon Bractor - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 23:47:47 EST ID:PKjpxs1L No.59112 Ignore Report Quick Reply
TMP and ENT are good, you're right. I like Voyager when in the right mood, or if I watch DS9 [or any other show of similar tone] first and want something vastly different more than usual.
Curzon Dax - Sat, 06 May 2017 03:12:54 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59158 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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So if the projections of the Talosians are 1:1 the shots of "The Cage," does that mean every episode of Star Trek is not just a viewing of the events, but a specific record arranged by the Talosians? Enter theories like, using their obviously multi-lightyear mental projection powers, they have been observing all the happenings in the Federation at least since around the time of Enterprise (we can fudge this and assume the ship the chick stuck on Talos IV was from was a couple decades older than what they claim, which would be around that time.)

Maybe their claim that they couldn't control humans and so they were unsuitable for rebuilding their planet was partially a mis-direction. Maybe their encounter with Pike made them realize that humans, as part of the Federation, could provide infinitely better protection to their world (through the order banning all travel there, thus the planet is presumably within their territory) and so seemingly sent them on their merry way, to control them from afar. Maybe they continue to subtly telepathically manipulate humans in their obviously very long view goal of returning to power??
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Sat, 06 May 2017 17:19:30 EST ID:9EdU4BYA No.59165 Report Quick Reply
Time's Arrow is one of my favorite episodes.
Mezoti - Sun, 07 May 2017 22:50:26 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59171 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Voy False Profits
The Voyager Crew is growing on me. At first, like half of them were an intolerable "wtf were the writers thinking" crew, but now they kinda feel like a rag tag B team, and I'm even cheering for them.
Before, I had watched a few episodes here and there, and genuinely hated the show. But actually seeing more of the characters, and in the order of the story, I'm starting to see a lot of merit in them.
I'll probably always dislike Chakotay and Neelix, but I actually love Tuvok now, and I always thought he was meh. He's actually high tier vulcan imo. Sometimes he even knocks Janeway down a peg, which gains him huge points.
Also, I'm starting to like Paris a lot more. Him and Belanna actually have fairly cool personalities. Out of all the characters, those two feel the most real imo.
Kes is actually pretty good from time to time as well, but she misses almost as much as she hits for me. She'll probably only get better as a character the further we drift from that strange Neelix/Kes storyline.
Mezoti - Sun, 07 May 2017 23:39:23 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59172 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Just finished this one. Just before watching this episode I've come to accept them as the B team, and then they go and miss out on an opportunity to get back to the Alpha Quadrant because they're too busy dicking around with a couple Ferengi and imposing their own values on them. Not to mention that they got outsmarted and a few crew members got their ass kicked by Ferengi.
Janeway is astoundingly incompetent. How she's gotten this car without a mutiny and being transported into space is beyond me. I think the crew has Stockholm Syndrome.
Chell - Mon, 08 May 2017 02:19:18 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59175 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I just finished marathoning VOY for the first time (sans a few episodes in Season 7 for which the links on /1701/tube are down), and I very much agree. There were quite a few early episodes that felt like they were trying to push the gimmicks of the cast far too hard, but they really started to grow on me.

The whole "We've almost found a way back home, WAIT NO SCRATCH THAT LET'S GIVE UP AND NEVER TALK ABOUT IT AGAIN" thing is rather infuriating, but what made it acceptable for me was something Mulgrew said about Janeway having undiagnosed bipolar disorder. She certainly seems unstable (remember that one episode that was entirely about her busting Paris for violating the Prime Directive, and in the very next episode she jokes that her attitude is to let the board of inquiry sort it out?).

So if I can find a way to blame every inconsistency on Janeway, it makes the show a lot more enjoyable. That way, it's not a show about a mysteriously over-equipped crew hitting the reset button every week. It's a show about a woman thrown in way over her head, alternating between clinging to the order of the Federation's morals and giving in to her overclocked Urge To Jump Off A Bridge. Her crew follows out of a mixture of fear, respect, and (as you said) Stockholm Syndrome.
Penk - Mon, 08 May 2017 09:27:30 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59179 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That's pretty fair. I mean, I give it really harsh criticism, because it deserves it because it is Star Trek and every little detail is analyzed. But I wouldn't even care to give it such harsh criticism if I wasn't enjoying it. If there weren't aspects that redeem every little plot point that doesn't make sense, I wouldn't be watching it.
Overall I'm really enjoying it, but yeah like you said, those things do detract from it a bit at times.
But I like your viewpoint on her having bipolar, because that does perfectly explain her constant flip flopping.
I'm gonna look at it that way when I watch an other episode tonight.
Commander Tebok - Mon, 08 May 2017 14:58:25 EST ID:xkwm0uRC No.59182 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I don't think mental illness is required, everyone on that ship displays serious hypocrisy, and honestly that extends to the other shows of the same era as well.
Which is like life, really, if you're being honest. How often have people in positions of authority done this kind of hypocritical shit?
Stuff that seems so implausible really isn't that weird, because a lot of people run things by feel, and their feels are fucked.
I can totally see some shit like Kim being the best officer on the ship and fucking up the least, and yet, not getting one single promotion until he gets another assignment.
I've seen stuff like that happen to people. Bosses tend to be hypocritical assholes, it's part of Leadership, I guess.
Malik - Mon, 08 May 2017 22:52:38 EST ID:3bunwxei No.59183 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>VOY Endgame

That was really boring.
Guinan - Tue, 09 May 2017 00:05:34 EST ID:srFZU9Mh No.59186 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Fucking lol

It was a letdown tbh fam
Guinan - Tue, 09 May 2017 00:05:34 EST ID:srFZU9Mh No.59187 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Fucking lol

It was a letdown tbh fam
Odo - Tue, 09 May 2017 06:34:26 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.59188 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Endgame distilled everything that made Voyager crap into one, big episode.

I think it's worse than Threshold
Malik - Tue, 09 May 2017 08:29:25 EST ID:3bunwxei No.59189 Ignore Report Quick Reply
At least Threshold was entertaining even if it was for the completely wrong reasons. But really, the worst thing about it was the Chakotay/Seven romance plot. Like... why?
Guinan - Tue, 09 May 2017 09:14:37 EST ID:GygX1Icc No.59190 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Supposedly they wanted to do a Janeway/Seven lesbian thing instead but chickened out
Odo - Tue, 09 May 2017 11:12:45 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.59191 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I never liked the Seven romance bullshit. It felt forced. Here we have a woman who's essentially relearning (or just learning) a lot of stuff about being a functional human being, emotionally speaking. But she's also hypercompetent, highly independent (which is interesting, for an ex-Borg, but hey), quite charismatic, and basically already a fully functional person who would have no trouble getting along in the world, except maybe some emotional trouble.

It just left a bad taste in my mouth, that the broken girl can only be mended by getting a good fucking. Then again, I always appreciated full autismo Seven exactly the way she was. And I'm sure if you'd put her in a room with Barclay, both would be a lot less awkward around each other than either of them around "I don't even have a first fucking name" Chakotay.
Guinan - Tue, 09 May 2017 12:18:36 EST ID:GygX1Icc No.59193 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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His name was Chakotay Chekote, his uncle was admiral Chekote
Nava - Tue, 09 May 2017 15:27:20 EST ID:WLGDRuAd No.59194 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think relationship was the final step and it made sense not to fix her but it was more showing how far she'd come. Unfortunately it happened in a hurry and almost out of nowhere because I think they only realised 7 was the last season when they started it. A lot of her development was backloaded though.
Boq'ta - Tue, 09 May 2017 16:04:36 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59195 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I just think it's really lame that they had to make her come back to being totally human.
Why couldn't she stay half borg? I get it makes for constant low effort drama, but it's weak as fuck imo.
Kono - Tue, 09 May 2017 18:12:55 EST ID:ebg8FMsE No.59196 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think it was always her character arc to rediscover her humanity. To be Janeway's daughter complete with an imperfect relationship and conflict and to eventually grow into an adult. Voyager suffered from certain characters developing extremely slowly and having another character change a little for 2 seasons then remain static would be lame.

But from an in universe logic rather than a writing point of view: Because she's pretty much a human with some cybernetics. Borg who were adults before assimilation become their old selves again when they drop out the collective. It wouldn't make sense for her not to become human.
Captain Paul Rice - Tue, 09 May 2017 20:25:27 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59197 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Completely agreed on the Seven front. I get that they were trying to have serious development for her, but episodes like Unimatrix Zero and Human Error had such clashing styles that I didn't really care. There were a dozen developing branches, but they all seemed to lead in different directions and yet somehow replay the same themes over and over. I got sick of Seven-centric episodes pretty fast, which was a shame. I can't remember feeling the same way about the Doctor, even though he probably had as many contradictions. I guess his personality made me more willing to suspend disbelief for stories, like when he suddenly had a backup module for Living Witness.

(Endgame felt like a less impressive retread of Timeless, except with paper mache Borg in the background.)
Nava - Tue, 09 May 2017 20:39:43 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59198 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Voy Fair Trade
Okay, this episode is actually pretty significant, to me at least.
This was the very first episode that had any focus on Neelix that didn't put him in a bad light.
When I was seeing him at peak awfulness in season 2, I would have never dreamt that I'd actually really enjoy an episode that's centered on him. But here I am.
In this episode, he meets up with an old buddy he used to be a criminal with, and one thing leads to an other and he's smuggling drugs. He works it out in a way that can help his friend and satisfy his new Starfleet morals.
There are a lot of lessons to be taken from this episode, about mistakes compounding each other, or snowballing, etc, and I thought it was really well played out.
So yeah, that was a pretty significant episode and for me it seems like a pivotal moment for the show, because Neelix is no longer just a steaming bag of targ dung, he's actually a kinda likeable character. He went from extremely obnoxious to annoying but kinda loveable in that one episode. All it took was a little bit of effort for the writers!
Nava - Tue, 09 May 2017 22:00:11 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59199 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Voy Coda
Lol this episode is silly af. Her dad looks like a generic grandpa and exactly like mine lol.

>Her dad died drowning under a polar ice cap on Tao Ceti Prime
holy shit, that's brutal. They really just glanced over that little fact, and I couldn't help but notice that fact stuck out like a sore thumb because of the lack of emphasis. That's a pretty crazy death. It would have been cool if they in some way later revisited his death.
Guinan - Wed, 10 May 2017 02:05:56 EST ID:GygX1Icc No.59200 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I liked that episode, personally. I always headcanon'd those were the same subspace aliens from Times Arrow, since they both nosh on souls
Kira Meru - Thu, 11 May 2017 09:49:14 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.59201 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I like Seven well enough. But I already touched on that: I like Seven the way she is. You're showing me this reality with a holographic doctor, a black space Elf who's entire species suppressed their emotions, a race that considers age 9 to be highly geriatric, and so on and so forth.

I can deal with Seven being a little weird. I can deal with her dietary supplements, her drive for efficiency, her total lack of regard for social mores. In fact, I find it refreshing. And that's the thing: Seven seemed to accept herself well enough, too. It's the others that insist she must become more "human", where "human" comes with the added caveat "according to us and our idealism". What if Seven decided, after that Hirogen thing, that she is really, really into Nazi ideology? Starts wearing SS uniforms and going on about eliminating inferior crewmembers (poor Harry)? That would be VERY human of her. Don't think the crew would deal well with that, though.

Then again, they had that other Nazi Borg, and he was a total bro.

Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a social fringer myself, but the whole drive to make Seven "normal", both by the crew and the writers (I really loathe Unimatrix Zero) is something I've always regard in poor taste. Contrasted with Data, and even the Doc, they both pushed for it, really hard. You knew they wanted that shit. The Doc so much that he taught all he knew to Seven, and that was the only time I could ever stomach this theme.
Jal Culluh - Thu, 11 May 2017 21:36:42 EST ID:Yb42b7BZ No.59202 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Blink of An Eye is my favourite VOY episode. Seeing a civilization evolve like that is something awesome. Seeing the planet's inhabitants try to destroy what they once worshipped really makes you think. The Doctor also has a good role in this episode and he's my favourite VOY character.
Kono - Thu, 11 May 2017 22:32:44 EST ID:3bunwxei No.59203 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah in retrospect it is one of the better VOY episodes, hell I'd go far as to say it's one of the examples of Trek doing what it does best.
Private E Hamboyan - Fri, 12 May 2017 14:36:27 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59204 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I don't know why it took me 3 seasons to notice, but why was EMH programmed with such a human personality?
I get that he was modeled after doctor whatshisface, but he's always bitching about how he needs peace and quiet to operate correctly. Is he just doing that because the doctor always did that, and he's emulating the need for quiet for concentration? Or does he actually have difficulty working if there are people bothering him. You would think that since he's made specifically for Emergencies that he would be good under pressure, etc. Just a random thought..
K'Ehleyr - Fri, 12 May 2017 16:52:13 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59205 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Honestly, I don't think the writers on any of the shows ever knew exactly how they thought holograms work. Sometimes they are depicted as being like humans, as thinking by looking into the interiority of their consciousness and making judgements based on symbolic reasoning (which sounds like the computer, in order to decide what a hologram does, first simulates the hologram's brain as a living being, and then acts based on what it decides.)

The other half of the time, holograms (at least those that are aware they are holograms) go on to talk about their own subroutines and algorithms. They seem like computers acting like computers, with the veneer of seeming to think about things merely an appearance to make humans more comfortable.

So I think the answer is they never really had an answer and so you can read more into one or the other interpretation as you wish.
Li Nalas - Fri, 12 May 2017 23:05:32 EST ID:WVrpSik6 No.59206 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I assume Starfleet wanted its EMH to be as human as possible because it worked directly with people in very vulnerable situations. Remember, the EMH MK1 was scrapped not because it wasn't a good doctor, but because it had shit bed-side manor
Eliminator Leck - Sat, 13 May 2017 12:32:47 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.59207 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Then why the hell did they replace him with Andy Dick?
Li Nalas - Sat, 13 May 2017 13:05:59 EST ID:WVrpSik6 No.59208 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The head of Starfleet Medical was a secret coke dealer?
Curzon Dax - Sat, 13 May 2017 13:34:37 EST ID:JXRQ/uS6 No.59209 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I have to be honest, he didn't strike me as someone who'd be much better suited to high stress doctoring.

Though the canon answer also includes "Bashir was a no go". Emergency medical Bashir would at least put his patients at ease. Though he'd also fall hopelessly in love with any cute females or crafty spoonhead men.
Tuvok - Sat, 13 May 2017 16:10:39 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59210 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I always thought it was just a tongue-in-cheek joke. Like 'even after four tries, even modeled on the best doctors in the Federation, the EMH is still a total asshole.'
Tokath - Sat, 13 May 2017 23:09:11 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59213 Ignore Report Quick Reply
To be fair, that guy was a Mark II, not a Mark IV. Presumably that means he got canned just as fast (faster?) than the Mark I.
Broca - Sun, 14 May 2017 02:06:41 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59214 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>Voy-Scorpion part 1
This is a crazy season finale. Hell of a cliff hanger. I have to suspend my disbelief with the ending and the way Voyager apparently survived the bioship blasting that planet then hammering the borg cube with debris. It sounds silly to say that considering all the incredible stuff in that episode and regarding species 8472, but whatevs.
I had never watched Voy all the way through before, and only caught glimpses of 8472 and I thought they were corny and retarded, but now seeing it as I watch Voyager in order, and after season 3 has pretty much totally redeemed the show for me, they're actually a pretty compelling villain. They're by far the most powerful enemy ever seen in Star Trek (besides Q) and the most technologically advanced. They're a very interesting species and it doesn't surprise me in the least that there is a long page for them on Memory Beta. Just saving this to come back to it later: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Species_8472
Katogh - Sun, 14 May 2017 10:49:40 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.59215 Ignore Report Quick Reply
what if the whole prometheus mission adn that ship was just a specially built but worthless ship, filled with expendable crew or volunteers, and the only copy of the mark 2. The plan was to let it get captured by the romulans so they would tkae it to study. But all they did was dig up Andy Dicks personality profile so he could piss off the romulans with his stupid bull shit.
Captain Rudolph Ransom - Sun, 14 May 2017 11:40:15 EST ID:U9OytMf9 No.59216 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Good morning, 1701.

You might remember me as the dude who watched all of Gunsmoke last year. Right now I am working through Mission: Impossible (1966 - )

Season 4 sees Martin Landau replaced by none other than Leonard Nimoy, who had just been released after TOS was cancelled.

M is also full of other TOS cast, with Takei doing a cameo in the first season.

This show is _bad_ in a unique way, I suggest you check out Season 4 - 6 for Nimoy. Cheers.
Seven of Nine - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:25:21 EST ID:oWZ/P/jk No.59217 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Well in Stellaris you can now gene bomb people by making the pops on one planet all repugnant, deviant and solitary so they're miserable, make everyone else miserable and deviate from the local ethics, then add rapid breeders and migratory, maybe throw in adaptable, bonus points if you use uplifted starborn because they're extra adaptable to other environments, extra migratory and extra miserable. Obviously you don't let them migrate. So you then gift it to an egalitarian empire. They let the pops migrate and breed everywhere. Suddenly they have a load of angry people spread through their empire outbreeding and annoying the locals and forming factions which the locals may also join and the become more miserable. Generating unrest.

The federation are the sort of nation you'd target with a gene bomb though. Romulans would make the shits slave or just purge them or maybe persuade the Klingons to take it off their hands.

So if the feds wanted such a strategy they'd use a shit tech bomb. Make the EMH 2 really got at propagating or build him into some of the advanced tech and suddenly every romulan warbird has Andy Dick on their deck smugly giving them shit. Every Romulan Commander would be on edge and lots of promising second in commands would be executed for small mistakes. The Tal Shiar would probably get on that shit double quick and be twice as quick to kill their operatives. Promising operatives dead, missions bungled, unrest, rapid changes of leadership.

Or at least maybe the Romulans would be so annoyed they'd give up on annexing the feds. Fuck those guys they can have their own empire. Back into isolation we go.
Corporal Kelly - Mon, 15 May 2017 22:06:17 EST ID:5pjj2ZZb No.59218 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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After a year of re-watching the same TNG episodes I started watching DS9 this week - only thing I can say is why did I wait so long? Love it already.
Lee - Mon, 15 May 2017 22:57:28 EST ID:NNu0rHAt No.59219 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Its pretty much the best series imo, everyone had differing opinions on that but its either one of the best or THE best its the best tbh
Karr - Mon, 15 May 2017 23:59:02 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59220 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Just wait til it peaks m8
Burt Ryan - Tue, 16 May 2017 15:39:11 EST ID:n8McU5oH No.59225 Ignore Report Quick Reply
either it's best Trek or best SF TV drama in the Trek setting
Administrator V'Las - Tue, 16 May 2017 19:45:44 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59230 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>one of the best

When the competition includes VOY and ENT and people seem to consistently ignore TOS, it's pretty hard to not be one of the best.
Lursa - Tue, 16 May 2017 21:22:44 EST ID:WVrpSik6 No.59233 Ignore Report Quick Reply
TOS is mammothly overrated.
Enabran Tain - Tue, 16 May 2017 21:54:49 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59234 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I try not to hate on TOS since it spawned a lot of greatness, but I just can't get into it a lot of the time. Some of the episodes are pretty good though. It's just hit and miss for me. The movies are pretty much all excellent though.
Lt. Maxwell Burke - Wed, 17 May 2017 00:30:27 EST ID:YX6hX83Z No.59235 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Get ready for the ride of your life

Captain Rixx - Wed, 17 May 2017 00:47:17 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59236 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I find TOS to be mammothly underrated by the younger generation of Trekkies. You whipper snappers just don't know what's good for ya!
Ba'el - Thu, 25 May 2017 20:25:08 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59416 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Kinda weird 2 parter, strange concepts. Not too bad though. The aliens are really weird and look like Slimer from Ghostbusters lol.

Also, do you guys think that it's sexist on behalf of the writers to make Janeway so dumb and incompetent. Like, she's a good captain, but she fucks up all the time, and still has her cocky attitude. She just makes mistakes over and over, and refuses to bend. Sometimes it suits her, but sometimes it doesn't. I was just thinking is it a coincidence that the only female captain so far is really shitty at her job?

Also, in Equinox she tells the captain of the temporal ship that she never once broke the prime directive, which I'm 99% positive that's total bullshit, but I can't seem to remember specific instances.
How many times has she broken the prime directive?
Captain Paul Rice - Thu, 25 May 2017 23:32:38 EST ID:TECkdwKb No.59422 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The writing in Voyager as a whole is all over the place and it wasn't just Janeway that got affected, though she was probably the one that got the worst of it. I wouldn't go as far as to call her incompetent, just inconsistent. I always felt like that they couldn't decide between Janeway being someone who was willing to bend or break the rules and someone who strictly adhered to them. She felt more natural as the former but it's like they kept forcing themselves for her to be the latter, for whatever reason. Maybe they felt that she'd be too similar to Sisko?
Ba'el - Fri, 26 May 2017 00:54:40 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59423 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah that's very true, and that's what has been throwing me off the most.
In one episode she'll do some borderline crazy shit that isn't in the playbook at all, then the next she'll give a big speech about how even though they're on the other side of the galaxy, they are still starfleet officers and need to behave as such.
I think one thing that really soured me on her early was an episode where they run into some Ferengi that were posing as gods and conning the locals, and she decided to impose the Prime Directive on the ferengi. I'm not totally sure, but interfering with someone else's interfering would be considered breaking the prime directive right?
I figured the prime directive would say they should just stay out. It's not their job to impose the directive on a few conmen. But she decided they needed to, and they missed the wormhole that would have brought them home because of it.
They've attempted to refine her more since then, but that shit was ridiculous. But that wasn't the only time she was hypocritical.
But yeah I think it was a little bit of not knowing what direction to take with her, and laziness of the writers. But you do have a good point about Sisko, with it being around the same time I imagine that would have been a concern, to not make them blend together.
Dr. T'Pan - Fri, 26 May 2017 04:08:36 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.59429 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I get the distinct impression that the writing bends over backwards to make things work for Janeway. That is, she does something objectively stupid, but it works out anyway, the crew still loves her, and no-one mentions her shitty behaviour. One scene in early VOY I really like is the unmasking of Seska, because Seska is right, goddamnit. She doesn't even blink before explaining that it doesn't matter two fucks that she's a Cardassian spy, because Janeway landed them on the other side of the galaxy with a shitty judgement call.

And then the entire crew is like "screw you Seska, we're all loyal to Janeway" and they turn Seska into a mustache-twirling villain instead of the flawed, but sensible character she was up to that point. That reminds me of another thing: Chakotay comes down on her for sneaking into the mess hall and making him soup, because Neelix complains about it like the little dictator he is. Bitch's crime was making soup for the guy she loves. No fucking wonder she ditched the crew faster than Neelix drops a good idea.

But Voyager is full of moments where the crew seems to know where the plot is supposed to go before we do, and just lets something slide. I was watching Our Man Bashir the other day, and one thing that struck me is that when Kira shows up in the holodeck, Bashir doesn't immediately assume a holodeck accident. First he thinks it's part of the same joke as Garak is pulling, which stood out to me, because Garak and Kira don't exactly hang out. Garak probably tortured some people she knows. Kira also hates the holodeck, and has been in there, what, three times by that point? But Bashir isn't a real spy, so he doesn't think about that stuff, he thinks that Kira is there, so she must have decided to take part in the program. Then she doesn't break character, so they assume it's a bug, or a joke pulled by someone else. Which is something we've seen done before, by Kira herself.

Bashir and Garak spend a few minutes finding out exactly what is wrong, exhausting possibilities, and are then told by Eddington that the computer stored transporter data in the holodeck. Stuff like that never happens on Voyager. The crew rarely employs any critical thinking, let alone critical thinking in character without stating the blatantly obvious, like "Tuvok is a Vulcan, Vulcans suppress their emotions, while the scene of the crime is a mess. This can't have been Tuvok". Voyager skirts around issues like that in order to make its plots work, while DS9 has smart writing that takes into account information that isn't directly on the screen.

Another example is that episode where O'Brien travels a few hours into the future a few times. Early in the episode Jadzia is working in OPS, and notices something peculiar: A micro-singularity seemingly orbiting the station, but nothing is there. When I saw that, I immediately though "sounds like a Romulan ship". And it was. It's a minor thing, but it takes a small detail from a TNG episode and uses it to drop a hint that a huge nerd like me can pick up on. It's smart writing. Voyager would have used some technobabble instead.

Well, this turned into a big post. In short, Janeway does a lot of shit wrong from our perspective, but the universe around her never responds to it unless the plot demands it. It makes a lot of tension in Voyager feel fake, and it's why I really don't like Janeway. Janeway is exactly the sort of protagonist for whom the phrase "it's a one in a million shot" was invented, because that shit works all the time for her.
Rear Admiral Gregory Quinn - Fri, 26 May 2017 04:21:43 EST ID:WVrpSik6 No.59430 Ignore Report Quick Reply
> That is, she does something objectively stupid, but it works out anyway, the crew still loves her, and no-one mentions her shitty behaviour.

You can likely lay that at the feet of Jeri Taylor. She LOVED Janeway, and worked the hardest for her to be flawless, and beloved by everyone but the bad guys. The worst was Coda, where the crew are near suicide at her funeral (which goes longer then SPOCK'S in Wrath of Khan!). Given that it was all in her head, it really painted her as a RAGING narcissist. I dunno why Taylor never noticed that she kept making Janeway look like that when she wrote her..
Lt. Chu'lak - Sat, 27 May 2017 04:31:35 EST ID:FjZ9V2nx No.59451 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Watching TNG season 5 episode 18 Cause and Effect for the first time in awhile.

For a Beverley Crusher heavy episode, it's pretty good.
Dr. Mora Pol - Sun, 28 May 2017 02:53:10 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59469 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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By halfway through season 6 I am so beyond done with Belanna and Paris's relationship.
Really, just Belanna in general.
Really the only time I really like her (besides the fact that she's a pretty damn good engineer) is when she gets catty with Seven.
The thought of those two going at it really gets my nacelles fired up.

Brb, R34
Vice Admiral Nakamura - Sun, 28 May 2017 11:23:32 EST ID:NUbxvEoE No.59474 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This is usually the first episode I show people when they've never seen Trek before
Kozak - Sun, 28 May 2017 16:58:20 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59479 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That's a pretty extreme tactic man. Aren't most people like, 'so are they caught in a crazy repeating timeloop every episode, is that like the point of the show?'
Dr. Yuris - Sun, 28 May 2017 21:08:37 EST ID:Wd8rz2aM No.59486 Ignore Report Quick Reply
People understand episodic television. Everyone's seen The Simpsons.
KC Hunter - Sun, 28 May 2017 21:24:07 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59487 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, but that's why pilot episodes are important. They establish what is the consistent part and what is the episodic part. Without a frame of reference, you have no way of knowing that. My point being that 'Cause and Effect' is an episode that deliberately manipulates what we know about the format of the show to reach its effect, and if you have no knowledge of what that format is, you're liable to be confused.
Benny Russell - Sun, 28 May 2017 22:00:55 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.59489 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Devil in the Dark, bro.
Guinan - Sun, 28 May 2017 23:10:42 EST ID:GygX1Icc No.59491 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Possibly my favorite TOS episode, definitely top 5 in the entire franchise, and a damn good intro to what Trek is all about
Nanpart Malor - Mon, 29 May 2017 06:35:45 EST ID:WVrpSik6 No.59499 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, because leading with "Encounter at Farpoint" (or anything from season 1) is a great way to get people into TNG.
KC Hunter - Mon, 29 May 2017 14:41:21 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59502 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, it is? It introduces the characters and the theme of the show completely. It prepares one for the character arcs that unfold in the first couple of seasons. It has both a 'gotcha' cheesy sci-fi story, and a grand narrative story that clues you in to Star Trek's bigger picture concerns. I can think of no episode better suited to introduce someone (to TNG, and honestly it's probably the most coherent pilot out of the lot.)
Dr. Yuris - Mon, 29 May 2017 17:32:42 EST ID:Wd8rz2aM No.59503 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yes, all those things are true, but it's also shithouse.
Captain Braxton - Mon, 29 May 2017 20:05:16 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59504 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This. If you're showing TNG to a new viewer, it really, really doesn't matter if they know who Jack Crusher is, or if they see every special effect that the production team had come up with, or that they know every member of the primary cast by the end. It matters that they see a good episode, and early TNG does not fit that bill.

TNG is not DS9. I can count on one hand the episodes, even in the sixth and seventh seasons, that you can't simply start with. Cause and Effect was my first episode, and I thought it was fantastic. Elementary Dear Data was (I think) next, and every character trait and interpersonal relation necessary for that story was made perfectly obvious through the writing. I'm pretty sure Yesterday's Enterprise was in my first five, and the only backstory needed was me saying "Who's she?" and being told "She got killed off early on".
Captain Braxton - Mon, 29 May 2017 20:19:25 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59505 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Also, I object to this name, and would like to state for the record that I am not a fan of "Row Row Row Your Boat".
Lore - Mon, 29 May 2017 22:32:26 EST ID:NUbxvEoE No.59507 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Encounter at Farpoint is way more of an atypical Star Trek Episode than Cause and Effect. Cause and Effect is good because it's well into the show's run. They have all the kinks worked out. It showcases every character doing their things. It also shows the kind of extreme things Trek gets up to. If they can handle Cause and Effect, they can handle any Trek. I mean, the episode starts with the Enterprise exploding. Sure to draw in a new viewer and make them want to see what else this show can do.

That is the ideal intro to TOS for sure.
Simon Tarses - Tue, 30 May 2017 10:21:06 EST ID:q3XMUiXr No.59515 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The best way to introduce someone to trek would either be with Encounter at Farpoint, Measure of a Man. Give them a view of how campy it can be with a Q episode, or how deep it can be with a philosophy episode. Or even give them an episode that's got an awesome spooky enemy like Skin of Evil. Or shit even introduce them with Conspiracy and they can start off with what could have been the coolest story line (if they had chosen to revist it) in TNG. I may be biased because I honestly love so many episodes in season 1, but there are great intro episodes there. I know that they hadn't completely found their footing in season 1, but that uneasiness with confidence in the characters, and their kinda stabbing blindly with direction resulted in some really great gems.
Gun Runner Sakonna - Tue, 30 May 2017 16:58:51 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59521 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Conspiracy would be a cool idea especially if you want to build them up to DS9, but they might be disappointed that that's basically the only time we get that tier of political intrigue in TNG.

But, seriously, Skin of Evil? The only good thing about that greasy turd is Yar's laughably underwhelming death.

You could just chuck them in the deep end with Q Who -> Best of Both Worlds. Really give them a sense of the epicness.
Admiral Chekote - Tue, 30 May 2017 21:03:06 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59528 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah I was just going with season 1 examples, but I do like the evil muck guy in Skin of Evil.
Dejar - Tue, 30 May 2017 21:32:40 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59532 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Skin of Evil does have a cool Picard speech, even though it's really just an eloquent "Neener, neener - you're pure evil and I get to fly a starship". But if you want shows of the form "Crew beams down to planet, debates with local deity", TNG is just a poor substitute for TOS.

Speaking of which, I just re-watched Requiem for Methuselah. I'd forgotten how enjoyable that one was, especially James Daly's delivery of Flint's "a bully... and a fool". Also, Spock recognizing Brahms' handwriting is perhaps the most egregious instance of showing off that a Vulcan ever performed.
Phlox - Wed, 31 May 2017 09:20:15 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.59540 Ignore Report Quick Reply
If I wanted to introduce someone to DS9, I'd show them The Wounded. It has everything that defines DS9, right down to two of its main characters, packed up in a neat, self-contained package. Christ, there's even DS9's propensity to have people sing during emotionally difficult times.

It's definitely one of my favorite episodes. I get to have TNG and DS9 in the same episode. It has a tragic moral dillemma, it has one of the strongest episode-specific casts I've ever seen in Trek, and it has two of the great pontificators of Trek (Picard and Dukat) duke it out, ending in an epic mic-drop for Picard. It's an episode that at once shows the senseless, traumatic impact of war, and the necessity of being ready for it.

The Wounded is basically TNG and DS9 at their best, at the same time. The only bad thing you could say about it is that it's depressing and serious, with no room for humour. So maybe show people Hollow Pursuits or The House of Quark afterwards.
Ambassador Shras - Tue, 06 Jun 2017 04:14:39 EST ID:hFMlYppe No.59638 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>TNG Booby Trap

I will never not like the twist of this episode. Geordi's technobabble isn't half bad - far better than the standard “Captain, if we remodulate the deflector dish…” “like shaking a ketchup bottle.” “Exactly!” that usually happens in the briefing room. Picard's excitement at getting to do something he finds personally fun is a great bookend for the start and end of the episode. The silly holodeck romance part is always balanced by enough tension to prevent it from stealing the show.

It's the same model as Contagion, but with another season's worth of polish.
Commander Tomalak - Wed, 07 Jun 2017 02:21:20 EST ID:1N2CNdZ1 No.59656 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Such a great, creepy, intense episode. Plus a fine ass Vulcan babe to boot
Michael Sullivan - Fri, 16 Jun 2017 18:26:29 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.59799 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Ent 0405 with Great GrandData's augments
this scene reminded me of a similar flashback in the Eastern Bloc SF movie "Per Aspera Ad Astra"
Prinadora - Sat, 17 Jun 2017 05:26:48 EST ID:6C6kcMFd No.59803 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Dr. Selar and Sakonna gave me a Vulcan fetish I've never been able to get rid of.
Hikaru Sulu - Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:09:56 EST ID:5ockzHQp No.59861 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>Measure of a Man

Gotta love those models
Jannar - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:09:23 EST ID:9xhWjR73 No.59874 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Is there a better redemption arc than Damar?
Jossen - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 18:19:39 EST ID:IUoOeniR No.59876 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think the primary difference between Kira and Dukat is that Kira has done things she isn't proud of (or isn't by the end of the series) she realises she had to do them but sees them as horrible things. Dukat is proud of the things he did and never relents. And ironically it's that little nuance which causes them to develop so differently. Dukat never says "the things I did were bad" but Kira does. Slowly he goes insane lost in his bullshit while Kira softens and even learns mercy and forgiveness and not to be so judgmental.

Kira is more than a mirror for Dukat though. While Dukat is both a mirror to Sisko and Kira, Kira's ethical journey is interesting. She starts off as someone who does what has to be done. DS9 is about the federation's lofty ideals bending, something having to do dirty deeds and that they're things to aspire to rather than absolutes and to come as close to them as possible requires compromise. Kira starts without any ideals but the willingness to do what is needed and slowly it rubs off on her.

I guess that's not unique to her though, Quark, Rom, Nog, Odo even Garak experience similar changes. While Sisko murders ambassadors to save the federation the non fed races become more idealistic and softer, Quark is saved by his friends, Rom becomes a reformer, Nog becomes the first starfleet fereghi and does so with an equal share of setbacks and distinction and Odo and Kira Garak maybe? end up advocating the federation to their own people.
Biddle Coleridge - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 18:34:46 EST ID:E1RGSIQh No.59877 Ignore Report Quick Reply


hands down the hidden hero of the DS9 story. eventually he is my favorite character.
Lee - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 23:10:30 EST ID:NsYbbNZU No.59883 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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You really could make an argument that he is the hero of the show, at least after the point he appears (which is actually pretty late, even though everyone remembers it otherwise.) The key piece of evidence: he makes the biggest personal transformation and most significant sacrifice to save the Alpha Quadrant out of any of the main characters; it's his hero's journey.
Jadzia doesn't count, because her death didn't save shit and was really just an accident with zero dramatic tension. Also Sisko may have to leave Jake-O but he becomes an immortal time god so that's actually a pretty sweet deal
Amanda Grayson - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 01:32:22 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.59894 Ignore Report Quick Reply
that meme is great. props to OP of that OC.
Amanda Grayson - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 01:35:59 EST ID:K6pRQ8/j No.59895 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Just watched ST beyond today because free on hulu.
Was it supposed to be a comedy because that was so garbage it was actually funny.
Katherine Pulaski - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 03:32:29 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.59896 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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why do we all just forgive Damar for killing Ziyal though? I understand that by S7 Damar would probably regret that action, even though it's never explicitly said. But that event could be called the catalyst for Dukat going nuclear, causing a lot of problems for everyone else.
Thy'lek Shran - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 10:56:56 EST ID:E1RGSIQh No.59897 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I feel like it kind of had to happen that way, and that perhaps that moment is a turning point for Damar.

Duty/Planet/War/Dukat/etc makes the Damar a dull boy.
Ambassador Thoris - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:50:39 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.59898 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Dukat was chill about it after he calmed down so whatever
Grand Nagus Gint - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:23 EST ID:Z9q7T93l No.59899 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Makes me wish there was an elsworlds Star Trek for the what Ifs. What if Damar didn't shoot Ziyal, and rather then snapping, Dukat turncoats to the Federation to insure a perfect life for her?
Guinan - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:52:36 EST ID:GygX1Icc No.59903 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Like all the rest of the nuTrak: Lens Flare trilogy I thought it was pretty decent until I watched it again. None of those movies can stand up to a rewatch.
Guinan - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:52:36 EST ID:GygX1Icc No.59904 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Like all the rest of the nuTrak: Lens Flare trilogy I thought it was pretty decent until I watched it again. None of those movies can stand up to a rewatch.
Thomas Riker - Sun, 25 Jun 2017 16:36:22 EST ID:Wqg7ST5a No.59912 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think Ziyal was what drove him truly over the edge, but regardless he had numerous opportunities before then to ally himself with the Feds and instead just looked out for himself and his vendetta against Bajor.

had Damar not done what he did, though, it would have been Dukat playing toady to the Dominion when the war ramps up. His instability in contrast to Damar would have probably made him rebel sooner, and possibly with less success.
Admiral Maxwell Forrest - Wed, 28 Jun 2017 17:17:25 EST ID:Yb42b7BZ No.59968 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Just watched this episode, why are they still playing regular 2D chess when we see 3D chess in Kirk's time? Did it go out of fashion?
Ranjen Solbor - Wed, 28 Jun 2017 21:47:34 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.59975 Ignore Report Quick Reply
DS9 quietly dropped "people are smarter at book learning" that was in TNG where kids had whatever Super Math.
Ensign Vorik - Wed, 28 Jun 2017 21:51:35 EST ID:sQLio0UG No.59976 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Incidentally ds9 is often my least favorite series to watch.
Ensign Kashimuro Nozawa - Thu, 29 Jun 2017 00:31:46 EST ID:wxvIFlM0 No.59982 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>DS9 quietly dropped "people are smarter at book learning"
Where, when? Citations plz.
Yeah, sure, calculus is 'Super Math'
Also https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/get-ready-for-calculus-in-third-grade-kids/431814/
Worf - Thu, 29 Jun 2017 20:27:47 EST ID:Fq2KHkqB No.59990 Ignore Report Quick Reply
To be completely honest if I was a starship captain you can be damn sure I'd be bringing my dog and there is no way in hell I would make him stay on the ship the whole time.

Dogs are man's best friend and on some of these away missions they may be the only friend you've got.
Colonel Lovok - Sat, 01 Jul 2017 00:58:57 EST ID:NUbxvEoE No.59992 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The kids on the Enterprise were the children of scientists and engineers and the cream of the cream of the Federation (to be assigned on the flagship). Of course a kid like Jake who's aptitude is towards writing and creativity isn't going to be buckling down with calculus unless he's interested. Not as part of a general study
Subcommander T'Rul - Sat, 01 Jul 2017 06:39:27 EST ID:/1chkS2B No.59993 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, Jake might have sucked at calculus but in quite a few timelines he's one of the galaxy's most celebrated writers. Even as a teenager his poetry gets him laid with a smoking hot dabo girl.

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