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General Nit-Picking Thread by Q - Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:34:42 EST ID:Yb42b7BZ No.64899 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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In Voyager season 1 episode 1 there's a fire in sickbay, why didn't the computer erect a forcefield to suffocate the fire like in that TNG episode with the Irish http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Up_The_Long_Ladder_(episode) ?
Brok'tan - Mon, 11 Jun 2018 13:15:52 EST ID:BySfnLmT No.64902 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Persis - Mon, 11 Jun 2018 16:21:57 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.64904 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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That's such a great bit.
Morn - Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:37:51 EST ID:5VzmgF16 No.64906 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>MFW in the future they don't have analog sprinklers
Marla Gilmore - Tue, 12 Jun 2018 18:37:44 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.64907 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Cause the ship was just thrown across the galaxy. Fire suppression was down. There's plenty of times the Enterprise is on fire too when it's damaged.

Did you want everyone standing around in a pristine, smokeless environment, saying 'the ships really in trouble cause these indicators only we can read say so, good thing there's no dramatic visual cue that might raise the tension...'
Spot - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 13:29:04 EST ID:vfKzFqQZ No.65006 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In season one at the end of one of the episodes Picard tells Troi she's buying at this bar they're heading to. Then at the end of the season, after the Romulans return, Picard goes on his spiel about how money no longer has meaning because everyone's material needs are taken care of. Then what the fuck are credits supposed to be?
Joret Dal - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 16:59:07 EST ID:MI2BlsDS No.65007 Ignore Report Quick Reply

They probably have some kind of production currency or something allocated by a committee set up by the Federation. They allocate the currency based on their perceived / calculated needs of the citizens, so that the proper material transactions can take place. Of course this could contribute to things like nepotism and social hierarchies (I know a guy in the committee and he got me approved to buy this mining outpost or w/e).

Or maybe it's a currency that's floated at a fixed ratio to other galactic currencies such a latinum, or whatever the romulans and klingons use. Then it would be strictly used for interstellar trade and acquiring things from neighboring civilizations.

Or it could be that members of Starfleet are given certain stipends in foreign currencies to spend on shore leave at non-Federation planets.

IDK, it could be any number of things but still have an essentially moneyless *consumer* economy within the borders of the Federation.
Guinan - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:48:06 EST ID:7jBXZROk No.65011 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm pretty sure the Federation either doesn't pay people at all or pays them a pathetic wage of credits plus a good amount of replicator rations based on rank

You can't replicate 9999 guitars because you have to have enough rations.. for instance, watch the s2 e1, Geordi talks about how replicating this complex component will take a lot of power and several hours. He even recommends shutting down some non essential systems to divert power.. And that's with the low resolution industrial replicators, not the high resolution medical or food replicators.. so it seems with a ship of 1000+ people that's going to be a logistical nightmare without some sort of system
Lon Suder - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:55:35 EST ID:5VzmgF16 No.65015 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I also recall that on TNG transporter use was rationed in some manner. My head canon is foggy on the details, but I think it was Picard who told Wesley he "used up a years worth of transporter credits going home every weekend from the academy." Obviously there is some sort of scarcity when it comes to transporter use too. Which would make sense since the transporter and the replicator are basically the same fucking thing. Just energy/matter converters.

It is though a bit hard to figure out how things are managed on Earth. It is a post-scarcity culture, yet necessity would dictate that some things have to be controlled. Otherwise you do end up with some asshole making 9999 guitars and hogging the equipment.

Also, how did people on DS9 get paid? They had full on gambling and whoring on that thing. The crew had to be getting something that they could either convert to latinum.
Douglas Pabst - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 18:58:41 EST ID:0AzIZ9J3 No.65017 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I imagine day to day stuff is basically free. But it's situational. The limit for everything is basically energy and stuff that's complex to replicate. So food, clothes, the odd toy isn't going to be material normally, especially if you're on a planet where you can go get things and recycle them. I mean if you run low on power and need to eat you can go get some native plants and turn them into energy, they grow back. Transporting people probably is quite expensive in energy terms as nothing will be 100% efficient, the energy probably gets stored at the transmission end while the receiver has to use its own reserves. There's got to be a cost for transmitting the data and lots of loss when creating. Replication cannot be 100% efficient.

I think rationing isn't about pay, its about there being one source of energy and rationing ensuring you have all the power you need to keep going. This is why rationing seems fairly subjective. A ship is floating around in the void for ages with no sources of fuel will need to make it last. Using power for stuff and then constantly recycling it is going to create even more waste than just using simple ration packs with little packaging, probably designed to feed people well for the amount of energy used.

Anyway I imagine the transporter credits thing is because transporting a lot probably is a drain especially with thousands of staff and students. I imagine computer and replicator time is a small issue but it's probably not a bottleneck very often.

Notice there's "industrial replicators" there's clearly bigger and higher speed better devices though.

its post scarcity day to day but high energy cutting edge tech is still limited. Pretty much by energy.

Remember, there's two sorts of consumption. Wants and needs. Wants are infinite, you can never actually satisfy them because we always want something new. Post scarcity just means all needs are satisfied, though usually everyone gets a few wants too. In lean times limited resources for the federation means less of your wants are satisfied, getting everyone's needs covered isn't going to be issue outside disasters and wars.
Admiral William J Ross - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 19:22:13 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65020 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The way replicators are currently depicted (converts energy straight into matter in a specified configuration) they must have two properties:
  • Require at least the same amount of antimatter/matter pair equivalent energy for everything they produce. (Conservation of energy)
  • Be over 99.999% efficient or they'd incinerate everything on use. (again)

The less obvious part is the act of moving the matter into the right place. But suffice it to say if it would be anything besides materializing the stuff in the right place without losses is the only way to make sure it actually comes out the way you intended, so it must be even more efficient than the process to generate the matter. It also means the act of placing the matter takes almost no energy itself because it would have to be dissipated somewhere,

That said I doubt that rationing of transporters comes from energy needs, rather from the scarcity of expertise to produce and operate the equipment safely.
Lon Suder - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 19:43:46 EST ID:5VzmgF16 No.65021 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Then the question is, why are transporters not simpler and widespread between TOS and TNG? In fact, thanks to STD, we now "know" that point to point transmission sans a booth or pad was old tech by the time TNG comes around. You'd think there would be like mad transporters everywhere because the law of tech dictates that tech like a transporter becomes cheaper and simpler to use as time goes by. With ENT it was barely usable for biomatter. By TOS it was a pretty common-place way to get around and you had the advanced point to point that only shows up in TNG. Transporters should have been mad advanced by TNG and instead were just ummmm...transporters. I guess maybe they had a longer range or some shit...but you'd think that rationing for this shit would be laughable because the tech will have proliferated like wildfire and advanced to crazy levels.

Also, was the holodeck rationed? My head canon comes up empty on that. If matter replication is rationed, then the holodeck must be like 70 years of "want" fabrication credits for like 1 minute. All that thing does is manipulate matter like a mother fucker. Must be the craziest thing to run in terms of resources. Not does it have to make, it also has to convert matter back into energy when an item is no longer needed/seen. Shit, the holodeck should by all right be taking like 90% of the ship's power.

>Why are slowing down?
>>Riker's jerking it in the holodeck again....
Ensign Vorik - Sun, 24 Jun 2018 06:20:39 EST ID:+HQF6OBb No.65023 Ignore Report Quick Reply
They do incinerate a lot of stuff. They recycle things all the time. I don't think it's possible to be that efficient once you account for the processing power used by the computer, redundant systems, buffers and so on. The actual process may be close to that sort of efficiency but there's no way the process doesn't use a lot more energy.

The point about dissipating energy is a good one, if the process isn't efficient the waste would have to go somewhere but we don't know where the waste would go. If you can materialise matter from energy then their heat pumps must also be extremely efficient and effective. Moving the matter seemed like it'd take energy to me but then if the matter goes through subspace or something it might not be moving against a force so actually it could be very efficient to move matter.

I still think its less efficient but the loss isn't during the creation process but rather extra energy needed to perform the task without loss. It's not say 95% efficient because there's 5% loss but because 105.3% of the energy of the object is needed to get it made with the rest going into computing, pumped heat, the transporter noise, light, perhaps other emissions, perhaps its radiated in subspace etc.
Admiral Alidar Jarok - Sun, 24 Jun 2018 12:46:04 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65027 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>It's not say 95% efficient because there's 5% loss but because 105.3% of the energy of the object is needed to get it made with the rest going into computing, pumped heat, the transporter noise, light, perhaps other emissions, perhaps its radiated in subspace etc.

Yeah, this would be the only way out, something akin to what shields do. This would imply that deflector shield technology is a prerequisite to almost any tech you see in trek... Dealing with waste energy by dumping it into a null dimension...
let's hope it's uninhabited.
In a sense this is necessary anyway since normally the only way to get rid of waste heat in space is by black body radiation, and I'm sure all the inhabitants and equipment generate enough of it that a galaxy class would be way beyond the temperature we would consider cosy.
Q - Fri, 29 Jun 2018 15:34:14 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65058 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In Voyager 1x13 @31:00 Tuvok uses wide band phaser fire on the bridge, why isn't this utilised more often? There are loads of situations where wide band phaser fire would be useful.
Guinan - Fri, 29 Jun 2018 16:06:19 EST ID:e4L2Ixwm No.65059 Ignore Report Quick Reply
There are several uses of wideband phaser beams throughout the series, but the most egregious error in NOT having them used was the Siege of AR15 or whatever it's designation is. It would have changed the whole episode.
Ensign Hogan - Fri, 29 Jun 2018 23:20:47 EST ID:7laFE9AV No.65061 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Siege of AR-551 is only an issue because aboustly no defenceive weapons seemed to be supplied to the troops there

No Starfleet SAWs or RL equivalents.
Porthos - Mon, 02 Jul 2018 18:05:18 EST ID:5VzmgF16 No.65095 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm watching TOS an "wide spread" weapons are used a lot in it. Including setting Enterprise's phasers to "stun" and knocking out a bunch of gangsters. Which seems like it would be used more. I mean, anything goes hinky and you just knock everyone in a square mile radius out and then go in to clean up later. Simple.
Dr. Denara Pel - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 05:30:22 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65109 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This episode also highlights the glaring absence of personal forcefields. We know it's possible, because it should be. And because we've seen it and seen it mentioned a few times. TAS might not be considered canon (though it should), but simply extending that forcefield technology to be a space suit was pretty ingenious. I suppose First Contact's space suits look more "realistic", but it honestly is pretty weird how every aspect of life advanced... except space suits. To the point where Worf has to tie off a leak with a severed Borg limb. Even ENT's suits were more advanced!

I'd be happy with a random explanation, too. Technology limitations make it impossible for forcefields that small to be reliably used in the field. It's a stretch, given the rest we see. I mean, that episode has landmines that aren't only invisible, but hide in an entirely seperate kind of reality.

I still like the episode. It does what it's supposed to do, and rolling out a series of new props for the weapons and gear Starfleet land forces would most likely have is unreasonable. Kind of like how that episode with Jake mentions "hoppers" as some sort of planetary transport, but never shows them.

But still, if I got dumped into the Trek universe, I'd get me a personal forcefield. Klingon tries to stab you? Personal forcefield. Exploding consoles? Personal forcefield. Holodeck restrictions malfunction? Personal forcefield. Sucked into the void of space? Personal forcefield. Oh, but it burns out after one disruptor hit? I don't care. I've seen what disruptors do to people. That's one hit that doesn't kill me, bitch.

Unless it explodes on your belt. I can imagine Starfleet technology doing that. But if it then also takes out my assailant if he's in close quarters, I'm counting it as a plus.
Ambassador Shras - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 06:00:00 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.65110 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Borg had personal forcefields in TNG
Darien Wallace - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 09:44:58 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.65111 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Unless it explodes on your belt.
yeah I mean come on
you have to have seen enough scifi shit to know that sort of thing will cause a bisubtamius partical intefference with the positron emitter rays on the display screen and rip your balls off or something
Subaltern Lorot - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 10:45:03 EST ID:MUJ4M6tq No.65112 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Also if the forcefield is strong enough to stop a kinetic blast it's most certainly strong enough to close in on you and crush you within a skintight prison.

In general though security forces should be much better equiped than some spandex and a "lasergun". I get the whole "The Federation isn't a military organisation" thing but c'mon, it's not like current countries or organisations today have their defense/security forces on equal foot with civilians.
Oh and nevermind the giant lasers and warp-capable bombs these space vessels carry, I guess that's fine, but once they're close and personal enough to see the whites of their eyes (or w/e colour) the only means of defence or fighting is an unergonomic powerpoint laser.
Roy Ritterhouse - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 14:44:32 EST ID:jMwrsElX No.65113 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Even if they reject the notion of defense they don't have PPE? And that PPE being able to absorb a few hits wouldn't hurt.

UNLESS. You're against an enemy with stun weapons. Your PPE will stop the stun but if they make bigger guns you'll still die. Essentially you disincentivise using just enough power to knock you out and thus your dudes get killed.

Of course against people who just kill you'd put the armour on so even if it's off by default because you don't want to give invader vibes you should have it laying around. Much like a civilian firefighting outfit you have several sets of gear for different environments. Even they have considered bulletproof shit for certain environments and there are designated security forces to fight while they pull people out.

So what I'm saying is default away mission being spandex is fine. But I agree it's shocking they don't have armour with a built in deflector array, self sealing environmental protection, perhaps power assisted melee mode for punching klingon heads off.
Hoshi Sato - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 17:54:54 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65114 Ignore Report Quick Reply
When nitpicking combat scenes you have to keep in mind the writers perspective.

The whole "why didn't they use X" quickly becomes ridiculous when you consider all options that post TNG level tech enables you to do.

Faced with bunch of klingons and have a ship in orbit?
Fine I'd rig up all replicators to spout out head sized UAVs with impulse drive, inertial dampers, phasers, scanners and shields. Then site to site transport them to the surface and watch.
You could even equip them with a transporter relay to keep up your superior starfleet morals and beam the stunned hostiles to your brig.
Dr. Lewis Zimmerman - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:06:59 EST ID:NsCNouER No.65115 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Voyager really shouldn't have broken that ground of transporting torpedoes. It ruined a lot of Trek retroactively lol.
Guinan - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:55:50 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.65116 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The problem is complicated replicator items take more time and power than foodstuffs. I think it's S2E1 of TNG where Geordi asks Picard to transfer power from non essential systems because he needs 512 biohazard containment modules. He also mentions it's going to take several hours to replicate them all. So your idea is only sound if you have a few days of prep time and plenty of dilithium.
Private E Hamboyan - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 03:05:56 EST ID:MUJ4M6tq No.65118 Ignore Report Quick Reply
99% of any onboard mystery/crime would be solved by security cameras in public spaces.
Captain Kargan - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:29:12 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65121 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, there also would have been a pretty easy hand-wave for that.
>"Sorry captain because the phase shifted chirality of antimatter we can't transport a photon torpedo." Oh and VOY even explicitly ruined that too because you know pocket universe bandits steal antimatter using transporters.

You are right, in canon the explanation makes sense. Not really from a nit-picker perspective though, they should have said computing resources instead of energy needs because the bulk of energy for replication must come from energy matter conversion which is the same for any amount no matter what it is.
Lt. Maxwell Burke - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 13:38:16 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65122 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I suppose this also belongs in the head canon thread, but I've always figured that Starfleet uniforms have at least *some* sort of fancy protective weave in them. They have to, given how often we see people survive direct hits from energy weapons or contact with superheated plasma. In fact, the most common plasma injuries seem to be on the hands and face. That is, the unprotected parts. When do they ever roll in a casualty and they say he got the stuff on his junk? Never!

We've seen drones a few times, though. One in that sub-par TNG episode with the dead planet of the arms dealers, and a bunch of them in Insurrection, when the Son'A use them to tag people for transport, exactly as you suggest. Two are also used (but not seen) by the crazy Cardassian with the plasma burns (which he seemed to have survived fine enough, due to the Cardassian probably also using protective technology in their uniforms) to deliver a transporter disruptor and an explosive device.

I think we can assume that they're less useful in situations where people are actually prepared for them. I mean, you could replicate your own, smaller drones specifically built to hunt down the anti-people drones. And then you get into miniaturization drone warfare, and I'm sure no-one actually wants that.
The Traveler - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:59:28 EST ID:fyCHQMkU No.65127 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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They tested security cameras on the Constituion Class, but when it was needed all Starfleet learned was how easily it could be manipulated and how retarded the layout of the captain's chair control panel was.
Lt. Cmdr. Jack Crusher - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 15:14:10 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.65133 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>click to open
>click to open
>click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click click
Jannar - Mon, 09 Jul 2018 01:18:34 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65143 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I think a simpler explanation on why the crew doesn't ever think to use drones is that drones didn't exist, even as that big of a concept in sci-fi, at that time. As late as the 2000s people were still making movies about the 'killer robot fighter' that proved that, after all, you needed good red-blooded 'muricans piloting your jets.

OT, anyone remember the first time the Cypher drones showed up in Metal Gear Solid 2? How much of a mindfuck was that at the time? People in 20 years will see that, and won't even understand why it's a plot point -- 'its just a drone, so what?'
Nava - Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:02:26 EST ID:wGoZ5flU No.65151 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>not knowing what is says
Jannar - Mon, 09 Jul 2018 18:50:27 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65153 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Maybe Jack was hoping, like me, that someone had replaced the words with something funny. Maybe lika dis?
Q - Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:00:57 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65164 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In Voyager 7x25/26 Why didn't the time police from the 29th century stop Janeway?
Morn - Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:37:34 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.65165 Ignore Report Quick Reply
yeah, sure
YOU go stop Janeway from time bullshit, buddy.
Jennifer Sisko - Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:34:27 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65169 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Section 31, because Borg-Whippin-Weapons will be helpful.
Plus it's conceivable that the time-police comes from that timeline in the first place. Not only that it would make sense that it's one of the few timelines where the UFP is still around considering how determined the Borg Queen was to rekt Earth.
Q - Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:09:10 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65175 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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In TNG 1x08 why did the crew introduce themselves to a pre-warp civilization, isn't that a violation of the prime directive?
Beverly Crusher - Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:25:28 EST ID:i0ocB1eB No.65176 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Starfleet sent orders to Picard to get Wesley laid so he'd be less of a weiner, going as far as to wave the Prime Directive to increase the odds of finding a race that'd fuck Wesley Crusher.
Prosecutor Orak - Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:16:30 EST ID:pGW9AzVT No.65177 Ignore Report Quick Reply
If there is one timeline where Earth survived there are infinite timelines where Earth survived.
Ensign Samantha Wildman - Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:01:55 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65178 Ignore Report Quick Reply
They meet pre-warp civilizations plenty of times, when they are already aware of spacefaring life. Not all civilizations will observe a prime directive, so there could be plenty of worlds that have been told of space without being able to get there.
Mot - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 04:25:17 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65179 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>If there is one timeline where Earth survived there are infinite timelines where Earth survived.
True that.
But infinities have a strange way of subtracting each other. Infinite numbers can be expressed using ordinals. Where w1 is the first ordinal and w2 the second.
w2 - w1 = w2
Sorry for geeking out on that, just saying that if something is infinite there is something so much larger that the former infinite is negligible by comparison.
Guinan - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:49:39 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.65180 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Mr Mot knows his infinite sets! And indeed this type of mindbending math would come into play in this situation.

If anything I'd say the timecops try to maximize the number of universes in which the Federation survives, sometimes letting Janeway, Kirk, Sisko or others get away with bullshit to achieve those ends. I believe section 31 is sort of a retroactive sleeper cell for time cops to achieve these ends, and that eventually, no matter what they do, the time traveling arm of the future federation loses when the temporal cold war goes hot and somehow transform into the Q. But maybe I'm wrong.
Ensign Samantha Wildman - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:01:52 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65182 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>> 31 is sort of a retroactive sleeper cell for time cops to achieve these ends, and that eventually, no matter what they do, the time traveling arm of the future federation loses when the temporal cold war goes hot and somehow transform into the Q
Best headcanon, you win the internet Guinan.

Can sec 31 timecops be one of the 3941985 new trek shows in production CBS plz?
I.G. Tarah - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:05:57 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.65183 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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CBS doesn't accept fun or new ideas so we're shit outta luck
General Martok - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:07:40 EST ID:zbMCdrK9 No.65184 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I dunno, I think the Q were excited by humans. If they knew we'd become them they'd be miserable. I mean they are bored as fuck to the point they meddle. A new race of upstarts as equals who will either bring them new ideas or supplant them either by culture or force is the most exciting thing they have to look forward to.

31 being a sleeper cell though, why not? That's actually cool because their agenda and goals would be twisted over time to suit the current federation making them puppets as a gloriously ironic twist.
Q - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 16:33:16 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65185 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 1x07 @28:10 Picard orders a heading of 925 mark 37 but isn't 360° a full circle as explained in 1x13 @20:00?
Ensign Samantha Wildman - Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:23:56 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65186 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>> If they knew we'd become them they'd be miserable.
But Q tells Riker this explicitly in "Hide and Q." He says that unlike other species humans have an insatiable drive to progress, and thus the Q study them because they believe we one day have the potential to evolve to their level.
Sarina Douglas - Sat, 14 Jul 2018 03:56:59 EST ID:nKtqVMXR No.65187 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I meant we won't literally become them, you're right but that's not what I meant and maybe I'm wrong about what Guinan meant. Evolving to their level and actually just being Q are pretty much opposite outcomes in terms of the ennui of the omnipotent immortals.
Guinan - Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:25:30 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.65189 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That just means he made the helmsman spin the ship around in circles approximately three times before they went anywhere. If a cloaked vessel were trailing them they'd be very confused.
Guinan - Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:47:44 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.65190 Ignore Report Quick Reply

As per the humans reaching the same level as the Q versus humans literally being Q, I'm not sure there's as much difference as one would think. Sure, they do at first seem to be opposite outcomes.. but perhaps they are just on opposite sides of an infinite moebius loop, if you will. At the level of evolution the Q are, they would be drastically different than whatever they were before. Even if they did come from us, they would think us no more their ancestors than a salamander would be. The Q existence is so far removed from mortal life, that they would have surely lost touch with their humanity and human notions of reverance for those that came before.

That being said, I didn't necessarily mean we'd literally become Q, but reaching that level of non corporeal godlikeness, it seems almost all entities would be effectively the same, save for how they choose to represent themselves. In effect, can you really say it would make a difference what something was before it transcended to godhood? It seems that such power would shape a consciousness and change it, that whatever "humanity", for lack of a better term, or uniqueness I suppose, came before would slowly erode under the practical inevitabilities of such an existence.

And it might also stand that the only blindspot in a Qs existence is their own history, not because of some barrier or magic, but because of their own ego. We see the Q to be the epitome of the ego, and in human experience the ego often shields the conscious mind from that which it cannot or does not want to accept. This is why many people have bad habits or failings, because they don't realize they exist. Because they don't want to. In a similar sense, it is perhaps too embarrassing and too shameful to embrace that the Q originate from a petty squabbling child race of naked pinkish brownish apes, so all but the Q we know best don't even think about it. Maybe that's even what makes our Q such a rebel amongst his own kind.
Kes - Tue, 17 Jul 2018 01:14:26 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65222 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I honestly think unpacking what the Q represent is some of the most high-level analysis you can do on Trek, so I approve of this general direction of the thread.

I think there is a third option between 'we are separate beings that are merely on the same evolutionary track' and 'we somehow retrocausally actually *are* the Q', although it's a little mystical. Now, we know the Q appear as separate entities, and that there can even be conflict among Q. They also as was mentioned are tremendously egotistical. However, how much of this is their genuine personality and how much of it is a way for them to interface with beings at our level? Is having a grandiose ego and representing themselves as separate beings just another level of 'I appear to thee as a fellow ship's captain, that thou mayest understand me better' ? (Are Picard/Riker/Sisko/Janeway's egos ever really that much smaller than Qs? Is this a betta fish in a mirror situation?)

What if evolution, in a cosmic sense, is not like a thousand different rays emanating from a star, but infinite beams of light falling into a gravity well, i.e. that evolution necessarily converges down particular paths rather than diverging forever? (There are in-universe suggestions of this, Hodgkin's law of parallel planetary development, Sargon's people, "Transfigurations," "The Chase," basically any time we are moralized to by lightbulbs, etc...)

What if Q really are 'God' in an absolute sense, in the sense of a conscious entity at the absolute ultimate level of possible advancement, whose mind is coterminous with existence? If the Q are that, and the humans are also that at some point, how could there *be* two? They would be only one. Even if they all originally started as separate life forms on trillions of worlds in an infinity of universes, by merging with that omega-point-singularity level of development, they become ultimately the self-same one. IDIC.

I think this is also one of the only ways to resolve the apparently contradictory origin stories for the Q given in TNG and VOY (that they evolved from material beings in the former, that they existed from the beginning of time in the latter.)
Senator Tal'aura - Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:08:34 EST ID:hFH53wxi No.65227 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I do think the different personalities indicates they didn't completely converge.

I think they'd be necessary to avoid boredom and perhaps the Q elected to retain some differences. Or perhaps through random chance they experienced different things, perhaps through their slight differences and this continued to change them. It should be noted that the genes of all races were somewhat engineered by the lonely guys, so convergent evolution may not be a natural phenomenon.

However what if the Q are not all from the same species? Does each Q represent a whole species?

If I'm honest I'm not sure the writers ever pinned down Q. I think they knew it would be more interesting to leave them ambiguous and not even know themselves than to pin it down.
Q - Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:45:27 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65235 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 2x03 Why didn't they attempt to shut down power to the holodeck?
Vice Admiral Leyton - Tue, 17 Jul 2018 20:49:18 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65239 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>I do think the different personalities indicates they didn't completely converge.
It certainly could be. In my interpretation, that itself is merely part of their attempt to represent themselves to entities that have distinct personalities. What if they are like the personalities of the gods in polytheistic myths, which are basically representations of aspects of an individual psyche? Original Q is pride, Quinn is self-doubt and grief, Lady Q is vanity, etc. Like the Kelvans, they could be thought of as a unified being whose limbs are so individually articulate and intelligent that they appear as entities in their own right.
>> I think they knew it would be more interesting to leave them ambiguous
I think this is definitely the truth of the matter, which is kind of why the Q episodes perpetually get worse.

They do suggest turning the program off, and what prevents that from happening is that Geordi's authorization to the computer to make an enemy that could defeat data authorized the computer to take control of the systems it would need to do that, including the holodeck. We have to assume then that controlling the power supply to the holodeck is one of those aspects that was locked down by that command.
Q - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:36:24 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65304 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 3x06 @27:40 Geordi says the Enterprise has ten's of thousands of light years on it.

According to Voyager, a thousand light-years takes about a year to travel, that would mean the Enterprise-D would have been traveling for over ten years. However the Enterprise-D was new just over two years ago in TNG 1x01.
DaiMon Bok - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:40:48 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65306 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This is definitely an error, because the writers never had a consistent understanding of actually how fast the warp speeds were (and they never really did come down on it.)

However, very strictly speaking, it's not incorrect. The Enterprise traveled to at least to Triangulum (it's not known if the 'mind dimension' area was actually a place or another dimension) in 'Where No One Has Gone Before,' which is well over ten thousand lightyears away.
Q - Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:01:13 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65366 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 4x04 @39:00 The Talarian gives the Enterprise exactly 5 minutes to return his adopted son, why do aliens in Star Trek use Earth time measurements? I mean if the universal translator is translating native time units, surely they wouldn't be round numbers like 5 minutes?
Jannar - Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:35:36 EST ID:hFH53wxi No.65367 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I feel like this is just something they do because it doesn't matter from a narrative point of view whether it's 5 minutes or 4 minutes 47 seconds and 2 milliseconds, at the end of the day they'll do the thing in time or they won't. It's crossed my mind but I think doing it properly would be tedious and would add very little beyond that accuracy. The show has limited time so they can also fit more of Worf being beaten up in that way. Then it makes it even more stark when they can't translate which is also useful.

>The Romulan general sucked at physics problems though
>a starfleet officer, even a shit one like Chipotle would have solved a romulan replicator saying "What is Celcius in Onkians" easily
>Water freezes at 0C and boils at 100C I'd like water at 5C please.
Ghee P'Trell - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:33:20 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65379 Ignore Report Quick Reply
To be fair, they go out of their way to point out they are converting to 'Earth time units' a couple of times in TOS. In fact, one line directly implies that they no longer actually use the system of hours and minutes (even though they clearly do) when Not-Lincoln asks Kirk if they still measure time in minutes and seconds and he says 'we can convert to it.'

One assumes, like a lot of the things established in TOS and not brought back up, that they knew people would get tired of hearing it over and over again, and figure pointing out they know it's a simplification once is good enough for the egg-heads who care about such things. They're probably right.
Q - Mon, 06 Aug 2018 16:19:27 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65469 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 4x15 @9:25 Troi says Earth is 2000 light years away, but wouldn't that take 2 years to travel? The Enterprise was at Earth in 4x02.
Q - Mon, 06 Aug 2018 17:28:30 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65470 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 4x18 @11:20 Geordie says "La Forge to Enterprise" without tapping his com-badge. So what's the deal, are they voice activated? If so how come we normally see people tap their com-badge? Was it just a mistake?
Lt. Chu'lak - Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:07:48 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65471 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Pretty much. This was an even worse problem in TOS, where there are tons of totally illogical distances/speeds given. Remember, the Enterprise travels to the center of the galaxy during the runtime of Final Frontier, but this took the Voyager, a much faster ship, years to cross. Fanon folks have often used the concept of a 'subspace gradient' which causes warp speed to fluctuate under certain conditions, to try to explain away these inconsistencies (which stemmed from never having set proper distance/speed parameters for the writers during the pre-production phase.)

Uh, but maybe 4x15 happens after 4x19, and the Cytherians dropped off the Enterprise closer to their next destination.

I mean, the AI of the Enterprise-D is clearly sentient, though no one wants to admit even the possibility of it until 'Galaxy's Child.' I assume that the communicators are always listening, and uses machine learning to determine if you are speaking to it or not. The tapping of the communicator may merely be protocol to confirm you want to use the communicator. Imagine if a crew member was paralyzed or trapped such that they couldn't touch their communicator -- you'd want it to still be able to function. But

>> Was it just a mistake?
Surely. They probably liked the take so much they kept it despite the mistake.
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Thu, 09 Aug 2018 17:18:40 EST ID:7hZAtms2 No.65503 Report Quick Reply
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They contact people without tapping their badges like 50% of the time.
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Thu, 09 Aug 2018 17:20:20 EST ID:7hZAtms2 No.65504 Report Quick Reply
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Also in Generations, Riker says "pretty big margin of error" when he means small, and then Picard responds with something like "too big, number 1."

How the fuck did neither of those two catch that mistake? It makes me want to fucking kill them.
Mezoti - Thu, 09 Aug 2018 17:38:02 EST ID:+xWHDIPk No.65506 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Aren't most of those times on the bridge where I assume the comuter just records eveyr thing any way and sends orders as specified. There are a lot of times when Picard just starts yelling at Geordi across the ship with out prompting the computer.
Private W Woods - Thu, 09 Aug 2018 17:58:24 EST ID:b2kjICL7 No.65508 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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they would have more options they can could with the badges, settings like voice to prompt, and analyzes speech patterns.
K'Ehleyr - Thu, 09 Aug 2018 20:41:49 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65512 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Uhhh....maybe the script had 'big margin FOR error' which isn't really a saying but at least isn't exactly wrong.

Everything about Generations to me is like a fever dream though. Nothing makes sense, everything is rushing forward with only this symbolic sort of connection with events, it's mostly just old white dudes yelling at each other while strenuously attempting minor athletic feats.

When you look at the history of how they shot that thing back to back with Season 7 and how crazy that had to make EVERYONE in the production, I think we were lucky the movie didn't open with just 2 hours of footage of Patrick trashing the inside of his trailer screaming 'MOON MAN KILL ALL! MOON MAN KILL ALL!'
Q - Fri, 10 Aug 2018 15:50:17 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65518 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 5x09 @13:50 The time traveller asks Riker what's the most important example of progress in the last 200 years, Riker replies "The warp coil". This would place it at least 100 years after the events of First Contact

In TNG 5x09 @14:10 Worf says there were no phasers in the 22nd century, this contradicts Enterprise which is set in the 2150's.
DaiMon Solok - Fri, 10 Aug 2018 16:13:16 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.65519 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Technically they were "phase pistols" and not true phasers in Enterprise correct?
K'Ehleyr - Fri, 10 Aug 2018 16:20:40 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65520 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>Riker replies "The warp coil"
Well, strictly speaking, we don't know how Cochrane's Phoenix's warp drive functioned. We know later drives featured warp coils, but maybe that was a refinement.
However my personal headcanon on this one is that Riker is just a dumbass who doesn't really remember how long ago warp travel was discovered. It's not really an important aspect of his job, which he is quite good at, after all.

>> there were no phasers in the 22nd century
This was actually consistent with lore at the time. In 'The Cage' the handheld weapons were called lasers. Thus people probably assumed that handheld phasers were developed in the ten years between The Cage and TOS (of course in that same show they say warp was only discovered in the past ~50 years, but they really tried to bury that.) Then Enterprise comes along and says 'we can't have Trek without phasers!' (or face-to-face communication, or transporters, or any of the other technology that was already established to not exist yet, mostly in 'Balance of Terror') and so they just decided to say to hell with it and retroactively made all those other shows wrong. Which means it's really Enterprise that was wrong.

But:Don't worry, all the universes are just discord channels inside Sarek's katra skype app. DISCO SEASON 2 SPOILERS
Q - Wed, 15 Aug 2018 20:47:23 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.65568 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In TNG 3x13 How did the Calamarain find Q?
Guardian of Forever - Wed, 15 Aug 2018 22:34:48 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.65570 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Calamarian count to four
calamarain then three more
calamarain for to see
calamarain come to me
Subcommander T'Rul - Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:01:01 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65571 Ignore Report Quick Reply
They were energy beings of some kind, that's all we knew about them. I think the gag was 'Q, formerly the biggest lightbulb being of all, has pissed off all the merely semi-omnipotent rather than nearly-omnipotent beings in the galaxy, and once human, they naturally both know instantly and come knocking.'

I think this is supposed to mainly supposed to be an inside gag for people familiar with TOS, in which there are a litany of ever more omnipotent lightbulb lightforms, to which Q was naturally seen as the ultimate evolution.
Subcommander Almak - Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:02:59 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.65572 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Harry Kim - Thu, 16 Aug 2018 20:08:47 EST ID:b2kjICL7 No.65575 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65568 because it all goes near a central black hole, everything is stretched out at points, you could pick up on it.
DaiMon Birta - Fri, 17 Aug 2018 10:44:14 EST ID:IvdYoAJo No.65577 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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