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X-Men by Basil Sigglewen - Fri, 20 Oct 2017 09:42:10 EST ID:sCeosyG4 No.43365 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Haven't really read Marvel in about 15 years, about the time they shut down the Marvel Knights imprint. I've only started reading comics at all again in the past few months.

Anyways I've never really read X-Men at all but have recently taken an interest in them. Read House of M and now I'm reading v4 of Uncanny, Extraordinary, and v2 of All New X-Men.

Too many directions to go from here, anyone have ideas which X-Men storylines are worth checking out?
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Fuck Gozzledale - Sat, 21 Oct 2017 19:26:25 EST ID:i4nZURVL No.43366 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Uncanny Xforce
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Barnaby Choffingkedge - Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:12:42 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43368 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43365
Everything BEFORE House of M funnily enough.
That's the cut-off point where things went down hill. Or one of them at least.
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Emma Blengergold - Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:26:13 EST ID:EqvF9BGg No.43371 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43365
In my opinion, the only runs worth reading are the original Lee/Kirby run, Chris Claremont's run, then Grant Morrison. Everything else is trash, except for some nice back-up stories by Ann Nocenti and John Bolton in Classic X-Men, the reprint book.
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George Murddock - Thu, 02 Nov 2017 12:05:48 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43378 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>43371
>then Grant Morrison
Case in point: Morrison's run was an attempt to pave the way for the future using everything that'd come before. Only for House of M to undo most of his shit, eradicate 99% of muties & generally put the franchise back to square one (intentionally, no less; Joe Queseda's a cunt).
Post-House of M is essentially the X-Men Doing the Time Warp Again, and repeating the arc of the prior few decades. In that sense OP, you wouldn't gain anything from reading the classical stuff recommended herein. They're better, arguably, but they were written under the assumption that what they did would matter long-term so being stallioned out of that payoff in the end is extraordinarily bittersweet. Might as well stick to the re-tellings. They're not as good but at least they're self-aware.
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Eliza Blaffingway - Sun, 05 Nov 2017 17:19:57 EST ID:N5RmCn2y No.43379 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43378

To be fair, Morrison's changes being permanent would have meant the marvel universe changing completely in all their other titles too. It would have become even more different from our world than it normally is, because there would have been hundreds (correct me if I'm wrong) of millions of mutants living among humans.. Imagine the ramifications of that.

So it was either making the x-men live in another universe altogether, which would have involved giving up crossovers and a ton of retconning (or possibly a mass mutant exile in another universe?), or leaving the universe as is and have all other titles live in an x-men world unrecognizable from before, thus giving up relatability. Or, as they did, reset everything to the status quo and not have to dramatically change everything nor take the biggest risk in 60 years of publishing history.

Or they could have done the decent thing and said in advance to Morrison how his changes were too big and unworkable and giving up on his contribution, but he was a big name at the time, and that choice would have made them less money, so.. I mean really, what did you expect?
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Hamilton Seshnet - Mon, 06 Nov 2017 09:11:48 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43381 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>43379
>To be fair, Morrison's changes being permanent would have meant the marvel universe changing completely in all their other titles too.
Precisely my point. That's not the impossibility it sounds like. Or at least wasn't MEANT to be. Dynamic change is what made Stan, Jack & Steve's Merry Marvel Manner such a revolutionary hit on newstands back in the day.
>So it was either making the x-men live in another universe altogether
TBH I am a-okay with this and have been for years. The constant anti-mutant sentiments & persecution messages are fucking retarded in a world of magic, aliens, demons etc.. This isn't even esoteric logic, Watchmen's "THE" comic and it's the entire crux of the story FFS. Fox's movies are the only place I can take the narrative seriously because there aren't any external forces to cause these world-ending problems; it's all the self-same mutant menace so takes actual critical thinking to weigh rights against threats.
>thus giving up relatability.
Marvel stopped being relatable as soon as they decided to make everyone immortal. Immortals who can cram 60 years of life experience into 15 yet still somehow never develop. I'll take a fantastic setting that still feels genuine over a mundane one that's thoroughly fake. You want risks? Fantastic Four #1 was a risk. Amazing Fantasy #15 was a risk. Iron Man wasn't just a risk, he was a self-imposed DARE. Marvel was founded on doing things the industry was too set-in-its-ways to even entertain, they thought it was pure madness.

Stan figured the FF pitch would get him FIRED. Ten years later he's telling all the writers to only give "the illusion of change" because he's shopping these specific characters around to investors, and then John was a zombie ever since. Twenty years on from that, the un-realism's stacked so high that they go bankrupt & crash the entire industry. Almost thirty after that, and the comics are absolutely fucking irrelevant. All the money's in merch & movies now. So what's to stop them from going back to basics & letting shit stick? It'd even make for a far more effective "IP farm" than the soulless recycling plant they've been running for decades.
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Reuben Billingspear - Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:35:45 EST ID:N5RmCn2y No.43382 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43381
>Dynamic change is what made Stan, Jack & Steve's Merry Marvel Manner such a revolutionary hit on newstands back in the day.

Not this way though. By changing the face of everyday, mundane society, you basically create an alternative universe. The streets become unrecognizable, the social structures would be different, the economy, the culture, everything. In this sense the marvel universe has never changed, and the everyday world we live in has remained mostly the same as our own, with the difference that sometimes villains break shit up or enslave the population, but only momentarily, only for everything to go back to status quo, thanks to the actions of heroes that, even in the most lavish setups, keep to their own spaces. Like Iron Man and the FF, they have their own building, but they're their own and don't spill in everyday society. It's not like they make flying cars and change the face of transportation for everyone forever. This is the kind of relatability I'm talking about. The structures, the technology, the everyday in general, remains like our own, and that's what makes a villain's disruption of it more powerful and gripping. It gives the illusion that it could happen in our streets too. You couldn't achieve the same effect if the setting was a cyberpunk world, for example. Marvel is a money hungry corporation, it will never give up this contrast in the name of narrative coherence or writing good stories.

>TBH I am a-okay with this and have been for years.

Oh I think it would be great too, don't misunderstand.. I was pissed when I read all of Morrison's setup crumbling down to bullshit and mediocrity and fucking Austen.

>The constant anti-mutant sentiments & persecution messages are fucking retarded in a world of magic, aliens, demons etc.

Eh, not really. For one, they called themselves Homo Superior, which is just pointlessly aggressive and confrontational. Also, unlike other superheroes, mutants are born that way and are indistinguishable from humans at first, making them a direct threat to homo sapiens's legacy. It's as if Nazis were back, only their arguments about being a superior species actually had basis in reality. It's not like an accident, that could make everyone a superhuman, either nature chose you or you're shit out of luck. Aliens and demons are just different creatures, they couldn't make the same "superior race" argument, they're just too different from humans. It would be like a duck saying it's superior to a dog.. Apples and oranges. As for magic, that can be learned as well, so the only thing stopping humans from being magic is their own will.

Mutants are obviously the replacements of humans, and no one wants to be on THAT side of the fence. Look at how we treat animals, even monkeys.. I can see how people would project that mentality on a race of more powerful people.

>Marvel stopped being relatable as soon as they decided to make everyone immortal. Immortals who can cram 60 years of life experience into 15 yet still somehow never develop

The way I see it, you're adding to my argument. These issues already make it difficult for readers to relate, you want to change the world they live in in a way that's unrecognizable from our own too?

>So what's to stop them from going back to basics & letting shit stick?

Probably the fear to do even worse and fail completely? I mean, I don't think they're attracting any new readers nowadays, the only ones reading are probably the super nerds who would follow the titles just for the familiarity. You take that away too, you're done. You take chances when you're strong and can recoup from losses, not when you're in a precarious situation.


I'm enjoying the discussion btw, it's not often I talk about this stuff in depth with people as nerdy as me. I hope we've not strayed too far from the original topic..
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Yojimbo - Tue, 07 Nov 2017 18:09:56 EST ID:z6jh5zVx No.43383 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Brian Fuckface Bendis had moved to DC.... good news for the Marvel fans, bad news for the DC fans.
The ultimate faggot writer with 99% of SJW/LGBT propoganda will fuck DC comics till the death, be carefull guys!
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Yojimbo - Tue, 07 Nov 2017 18:13:02 EST ID:z6jh5zVx No.43384 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43383
Get ready for Dick Greyson to reveal he's been a closet homosexual this whole time. And no one will dare retcon it for fear of being labeled homophobic.
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[name redacted] !h55/E7mIo6 - Tue, 07 Nov 2017 23:18:44 EST ID:ItVt0M/C No.43386 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43383
I hope he doesn't get on to any main titles. Hopefully he'll be doing one of the new Dark Matter titles or something next year. Either that or put him on the dumpster fire that is Cyborg, he can't make it any worse and he gets to write his black charater.
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Basil Berrylen - Wed, 08 Nov 2017 04:00:38 EST ID:aBJaOtdU No.43387 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43383
I have bad news for you, X-Men has always been SJW/LGBT.
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Nicholas Midgehall - Wed, 08 Nov 2017 07:58:07 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43391 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>43383
>>43384
Bendis' social awareness is absolutely irrelevant to why he's rubbish, anon. There are bigger SJWs at Marvel with farrrrr less restraint on the subject or competence in writing it.
>>43387
This is 100% objective truth. But you can extend it to Marvel at large. They've ALWAYS been the Liberal pick.
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Nicholas Midgehall - Wed, 08 Nov 2017 08:55:55 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43392 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>43382
>Marvel is a money hungry corporation, it will never give up this contrast in the name of narrative coherence or writing good stories.
Not that I disagree with your overall point that general society in the MU should stay the same (although the way it's executed DOES make various "heroes" look like incompetent wankers), but when comics make as little money in the grand scheme of things as they do now I don't think this mindset holds up. Would big real-world changes make a massive difference in sales? Can't say. I've heard convincing arguments for both. But in the grander scheme of things, where the comics are a glorified test-lab for other media avenues, it'd make a far more efficient money-making whole. To paraphrase Stan, "When Jack & I saw Superman & Batman, we were inspired to make Spider-Man & the FF. When new writers see Spider-Man & the FF, they're inspired to make more Spider-Man & FF". Totally disregard for the mindset behind these icons, so more icons aren't made.
>you want to change the world they live in in a way that's unrecognizable from our own too?
You think my pitch to unfreeze time somehow wouldn't effect all the characters who've been frozen in time? Again, "I'll take a fantastic setting that still feels genuine over a mundane one that's thoroughly fake." The very crux of my argument entails that problem be removed. Characters would age & retire & give way to new generations, as they were meant to. The lore wouldn't stack forever like an unassailable garbage heap or hyperactivated cancer, it would cycle through & constantly allow new accessible context to a new accessible audience. Like that real life thing you're lauding. I don't need to know a sports team's history dating back to the 1960s to get into that sports team now. It'd be enriching, but not bloody vital.
>Probably the fear to do even worse and fail completely?
See my first part. There's nothing to lose. There are rumors the comics' division already operates on a loss, and other media ventures already have 60 years of stories to draw inspiration from (not to mention just making up their own shit). Risks hurt nobody in so small a cog of what's now so massive a machine. Marvel isn't strong? Nigga where you been since 2008? I know I know, comics =/= movies, but it's all the same corporation and all privy to the same income, investments & creative rewards.

I was on a roll with the Mutant part but towards the end there was so much misunderstanding & contradiction that it gave me a fucking headache so I'll give it its own re-formatted post later.
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Thomas Tillingson - Wed, 08 Nov 2017 13:13:16 EST ID:N5RmCn2y No.43393 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43392
>Characters would age & retire & give way to new generations, as they were meant to

Come on, you know that's risky. Old characters have decades of history.. And I'm not talking about their own messed up biographies, but real world history. They've been part of society for a long time, and that alone gives them a certain kind of popular power that would trump any well-thought out new legacy character. I don't think the name is enough, especially now that their fanbase, is, imho, mostly composed of die-hard fans who only tune in because it's something familiar. Having other characters take the mantle would mean losing some of their familiarity, and new readers aren't as reliable as old ones.

I mean, as a reader, I agree with you, and I would love for that to happen.. But from the point of view of marvel it's a risky move. I guess this rests on whether you agree with me about who's buying marvel comics now and if gaining new readers would be worth the risk of alienating some old ones..

>There are rumors the comics' division already operates on a loss, and other media ventures already have 60 years of stories to draw inspiration from (not to mention just making up their own shit). Risks hurt nobody in so small a cog of what's now so massive a machine. Marvel isn't strong? Nigga where you been since 2008? I know I know, comics =/= movies, but it's all the same corporation and all privy to the same income, investments & creative rewards.

Yeah I was only focusing on the comics' part. I don't know what to say, in theory you make sense, but then why aren't they changing things? From what I've seen, the only things the movies brought are some changes in the comics that make them more similar to the movies, either stylistically, or in terms of stories/cast. They should have the strength to dare more.. There's one caveat though. Who knows how long the movies' success will last? I'm honestly amazed it's lasted this long, and we haven't grown sick of it. I'm mentioning this because the change you're suggesting, making the characters grow older, making other character take the mantle, is something that would last longer than the movies' success would. If they'd go to just rely on the comics, how would they fare? And they should reset everything if they wanted to go back to a more familiar setting, with a crisis on infinite earths type event, getting rid of all the legacy characters, rewriting histories again, etc. I guess it's doable, DC did it multiple times after all.. I guess the reason they're not doing it right now is to not alienate the potential movie audiences.
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Esther Gucklehutch - Sat, 11 Nov 2017 06:48:54 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43402 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>43393
Retire =/= no longer show up. That'd take another good few decades.
They'd also still be the focus of the relevant media outlets like film & vidya. Insofar as audiences want and producers provide.
I didn't even say shit about legacy heroes. These past few years have been dire. Because the original philosophy has been forgotten. It's fanboys raised on the neverending Marvel-U trying to write something they have no grasp of. You know who did? The generation who grew up on 60s Marvel. Claremont, Englehart, Simonson, Starlin, Stern; when they wrote stories with the given cast they became iconic, and when they made new characters they were NEW. They understood the appeal of growth and development and change and lo' and behold they all start dropping off and leaving for personal projects as the 80s drew to a close & their input became counterproductive. The New Mutants weren't Cyclops Jr, II-ceman, MiniBeast etc.. The constituent New warriors took pride in their originality. The Power Pack were so subtle their purpose still goes largely unrecognized. And now they're all obscure ephemera because they never did what they were bloody created to do.
>I guess this rests on whether you agree with me about who's buying marvel comics now
Oh I agree. I just think it's irrelevant. None of ANAD's phony pandering "change" means anything, especially when done by people so incompetent. It doesn't draw the new fans & just pisses off the old. I'm saying that, if executed well (which would take an entire creative overhaul to which "back to basics" meant more than the superficial), there's nothing to lose through the risk and frankly those old entrenched fans would be the most likely to love & support it.
>I don't know what to say, in theory you make sense, but then why aren't they changing things?
Thing's aren't bad enough yet. But we're close and getting ever-closer. Constant relaunches isn't working, emulating the movies isn't working, chasing the Tumblr market isn't working, they're burning through their bag of tricks and will eventually find it empty. As to your latter point about lasting appeal & resets, fans are given no choice in the matter. Heck, maybe I'm being too forceful in my assumptions and the solutions somewhere in the middle. Two parallel lines of comics where one moves in real time & the other stays the same, or dead characters people miss getting their own insular-canon spinoffs.
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Ebenezer Billingridge - Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:22:15 EST ID:CA41cnmO No.43417 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43402
> when they wrote stories with the given cast they became iconic, and when they made new characters they were NEW. They understood the appeal of growth and development and change

It's not like they had much choice though. You forget that in those times there was no Image comics, or Boom!, or Avatar, and if you wanted to work in comics you either had to starve with small, inconsequential publishers, starve by self-publishing, or work with the big two.
Can you blame today's writers for not creating new character, when they'll never be compensated for that work? Why not take that new idea and spin it in a comic from which they'll get royalties instead?

Good news for comics, bad news for the big two. I mean, even the current DC rebirth is fueled by the infusion of new characters that aren't new at all, they're from watchmen. I haven't read them, but they say they're good.. But then again, since they seem to hinge on these characters, once the plot gets resolved, the mystery is gone, they take part in the DCU, and the novelty wears off, will the quality remain the same? I think DC will suffer the same difficulty, as they have the same problem as Marvel, no writer finds it worthwhile to create new characters for them.

>None of ANAD's phony pandering "change" means anything, especially when done by people so incompetent. It doesn't draw the new fans & just pisses off the old

ANAD? But yeah, if you mean chasing the tumblr crowd, that was cringy.. But then again so is the crowd. At least now they have confirmation that they just want to complain about comics, not actually buy them.

>Two parallel lines of comics where one moves in real time & the other stays the same, or dead characters people miss getting their own insular-canon spinoffs.

That would be cool, but this faces the same problem as above, and recycling has a limit.. Then again, there's a shitload of obscure marvel characters to recycle, so I can see it work, with a bit of creativity.

As for insular-canon spinoffs, I love whatifs and elseworlds, and I really wish there were more of them. I think it's the ideal way to go.. Not only you pander to different tastes but each universe would be more free to go their own way. The DCU is the more equipped one to do it, they even have a map of their multiverse, but all they're getting out is those earth one specials that are fine, but they don't say anything really new.
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Betsy Brindlechin - Sat, 18 Nov 2017 07:56:11 EST ID:qUGqNh6Y No.43418 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>43417
>Can you blame today's writers for not creating new character, when they'll never be compensated for that work?
That's a major factor, by all means. Roy Thomas had the mindset back in the 60s and is considered the template for a "Marvel writer". And the rise of Image et al. indeed contributed to a sheer drop-off in new IP. It's a matter of balance & compromise, and like I said would require an overhaul of business practice in the first place.
Probably worth mentioning that DC's a different beast entirely. The Marvel Age was an explicit retort to the way DC did things, both have since copied & traded so much that they're a lot less distinct. Still, at the foundation, those characters were made to be eternal and between the way the universe is structured & the workings of Crises that's fine. At least IMO.
>ANAD?
All-New All-Different. Name of the post-Secret Wars relauch. Which went full fucking throttle with that Tumblr-chasing so it gets used as a catch-all term for the general movement.


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