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Any musicians here able to help me with this? by Augustus Bablingwad - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 23:31:12 EST ID:WsWOXqJ5 No.448741 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1490067072873.png -(88832B / 86.75KB, 630x502) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 88832
I am not a musician, but i dick around with a keyboard / daw sometimes.
I discovered these notes combine really well for a morbid / ominous sound. (picture related)
Is this an actual scale / mode?
As much information as possible is helpful, thanks.
>>
Alice Gengerham - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:28:03 EST ID:TXwUTpbV No.448743 Ignore Report Quick Reply
this is a guitar site
but whenever i find wacky sets of notes I use this site to give me a direction
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/reverse_scales.php
just click on the notes you use on any string, and it will suggest what scales they fall under. This one brings up many scales the top being f harmonic minor.
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Fucking Simmerdick - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 12:25:33 EST ID:Xl9uAet2 No.448744 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That would probably have to do with shoving three dissonant intervals together.
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Sophie Tootspear - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:26:07 EST ID:1cKIfSje No.448754 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448741
Here are the intervals and what they are sort of doing. In very simple terms.

You have a minor second. A dark and eerie sound.
A major third. A happier sound.
A perfect 4th. Kinda neutral in practice but a major and very consonant sound.
A major 5th. This is again very consonant and mostly neutral in tone.
An augmented 5th or a minor 6th depending on how you want to look at it. I'd say minor 6th and a bit unlike a minor 3rd, the sad sound has more stress to it. Sort of frenetic in sound.
The you have a lowered 7th which is relatively dissonant but there isn't really any sound I'd classify it as.

Basically, you have a C major chord, (The root, 3rd, and 5th.)Then you have an added perfect 4th. And then you throw on top a minor 2nd, 6th and a lowered 7th.

You could call this a clusterfuck. I'm sure this is some form of slash chord blah blah blah with a major chord over a minor chord. Or polychord or something. I don't know piano well. Or this level of chord theory.

If you are going for the most haunting sound just don't play the white keys in your diagram and play the c# or f# you aren't playing and then play another octave. Or another C or F depending on where you are on the keyboard. You didn't say if you are playing c or f as your root.

For spooky sounds, minor second and diminished 5ths are your friend. The Root, -5, Octave is the tritone. Called the "devil's interval." The minor second is the Jaws theme sound. A 7th that is lowered sounds like shit to me, it is my least used interval within diatonic scales/patterns. Minor 3rds and 6ths add a sad sound. A perfect 4th and 5th can be molded to into some minor sounds and nearly all major sounds. They work good to get your music moving from sound to sound. Major 3rds, 6ths and major chords built with 4ths/5ths will always give a happy sound or a victorious sound depending on context. A 7th is a leading tone and builds the most suspense out of any interval. It wants resolution. Which is partly why many people think the Locrian mode is a theoretical mode which is actually wrong. Locrian is only "theoretical" in the sense that we have 6 modes that are derived by the same means. Because diatonic scales are 7 notes, we "needed" 7 modes and there wasn't anything perfect to derive that from like the other modes so we just "made it up."

Again, all of this is just from an interval to root basis. Throwing all kinds of intervals together rather than just a dyad relationship will give vastly different sounds. Just play around more and you'll start to find what can go where according to your tastes.

>Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.
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Jenny Nablinghall - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:09:53 EST ID:ukoPU7Q0 No.448758 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448741
It'll depend on function, but you basically have an f melodic minor scale going on there. The raised 7th (e) would be going up, the lowered 6 (Db) would be played going down.

If played all together at the same time you have a polychord of C7/Db

Like the other guy said, all those words do is describe what's going on after the fact. If it sounds good, do it and put words to it later!
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Fucking Fupperfodge - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 12:35:43 EST ID:3a/IltZs No.448777 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448754

Thanks for this post, sort of guiding in things I should look into. Messing with blues sounds lately, the flattened interval became clear on how it made a lot of classic sounding rock sound a bit 'evil' or ominous. Yeah, really slow on that, and I could naturally hear, but looking into the "devil's interval" it made it a lot clearer.

I suppose I should dive deep into chord theory, but are there any other aspects of theory worth looking into that you feel are really foundational or enlightening? Anything interesting.
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Clara Crongerkune - Sat, 25 Mar 2017 01:07:48 EST ID:1cKIfSje No.448779 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448777
Ignore theory unless you want to learn it. Get the basics down like timing, metronome use and some basic chord theory along with what notes are what and where and some understanding of intervals.

If you are making music, theory doesn't do much to help you other than maybe tie some stuff together but I've found I can link parts and pieces without much need to find some scale or chord that "fits." I just sing the part and keep singing until I find something I like. Sing everything. Hum it, or whistle or whatever. It makes things a million times easier and faster.

Don't worry about modes or anything like that. It is all ego wanking douchebag horse shit. Nobody that talks about modes understands them unless they spent 4 years in college for music. And even then, it is suspect. Nobody is playing modal music that you've probably heard of. People think modes even have "tones." Or a defining tone to them. Then even more people think modes are scales to rote memorize. Both are wrong. A "Phrygian tone" isn't the minor second. And noodling through a Phrygian "scale" won't sound necessarily Phrygian. Mainly because modes are not tonal. They are modal.

We basically all play tonal music. Learn how to do that. Tonal music is based around suspense, harmony, melody and resolving. Since we all have heard millions of examples of tonal music, it is very easy to make it once you understand what you are looking for. Or listening for.

Practice chord progressions that sound good. Practice playing notes or patterns that sound like they resolve or "complete" themselves. Practice learning what chords go with what patterns. Practice harmonizing everything together. Finally, work on singing all this shit out in some manner to find where you want to drive the next motif.

>Music theory helps us define what happens. Millions of people think you need to know how to dissect every ounce of theory to make music and it is bullshit. Just play what sounds good to you. John Lennon played for a year with only 4 strings on his guitar and didn't know it was suppose to have six. Nirvana started out bashing their instruments in rage and went to the top of alternative music in short order.

Once you have basic technique, posture, note names, chords and all that shit down, just play more. Playing more and more is really the key to getting good. Not learning a ton of useless and impractical shit.
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Caroline Gusslesed - Sat, 25 Mar 2017 17:32:31 EST ID:3a/IltZs No.448783 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448779

Yeah, I've had those basics down for some time, at least, enough, but I guess I felt I had an epiphany yesterday, or rather some additional pieces of the jigsaw were found.

I actually am interested in modes, and know the main ones, how they're formed etc, but I'm trying to get a deeper understanding of the intervals themselves, because like, breaking it down to waves, the shapes and intervals are super complex, but breaking them down to notes, and then scales/modes... Uhh. So they're just patterns of intervals, and from what I understand, one half of the western scale is major, shift it over to minor, then the diminished is formed from being non symmetrical.

That's the type of whirlwind stuff going through my head, and I think things like, just three semitones has a certain sound, and wherever you go from there bridges to another sound, you can change patterns to anything on the fly as long as you know the intervals at any given point.

And yeah, I like to learn top down and bottom up, just learning about theory can help you find a lot of starting points, and places to go, while messing around. I like to spend 30-60 minutes just playing nonstop, but these days, a lot more focused and experimental. It's important to follow up on those new sounds you make, and not just put them on the backburner after playing it once. If you slow down to explore and pay attention, you'll start to progress naturally.

Pardon this for being unacademic fluff, but I felt obligated to respond, and yeah. Intervals. But I need to look into the difference between "tonal" and "modal", to get a deeper understanding of "modes" in general, not just music. What exact function does a mode serve over tonal music? Are the sounds just less harmonic, free form? Jazz? So you're just saying in Jazz, shift the modes, don't worry about the structure, but of course most music even free form jazz has a structure, it's just one that isn't rigid, but it's still solid and complete.

So the modes, you're just shifting the intervals, tonal you're ensuring the intervals are all solid and it adheres to a strong structure, modes you're just going off of what is technically possible from that given interval, and the intervals previous. Just have to find the right time to shift to another mode, or just say fuck it and hit another note anyway.
>>
Fucking Gegglestock - Sat, 25 Mar 2017 22:24:55 EST ID:1cKIfSje No.448786 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448783
>rather some additional pieces of the jigsaw were found.
This will likely never stop happening.

>I actually am interested in modes, and know the main ones, how they're formed etc, but I'm trying to get a deeper understanding of the intervals themselves, because like, breaking it down to waves, the shapes and intervals are super complex, but breaking them down to notes, and then scales/modes... Uhh.
You've completely missed my point. Modes are not just scales and sets of intervals. They are modes. You can play modes tonally but that doesn't make them modal. You're just playing strings of notes people have wrongly claimed as a mode. In fact, what most everyone is doing is just playing notes within a "mode" that sound good in relation with complete omission of what makes the mode, modal. You don't seem to get that modal music and tonal music are completely different types of music. You've probably so rarely heard actual modal music you think of all music as tonal. Not to be a dick but reread my post more carefully.

>So they're just patterns of intervals, and from what I understand, one half of the western scale is major, shift it over to minor, then the diminished is formed from being non symmetrical.
Not modally they aren't. You seem really set on making tonal music and not modal music so focus on that. Modes are highly overrated and emphasized. Intervals are more of a tonal music thing anyways and modes again aren't tonal. Intervals have characteristic sounds ONLY IN RELATION to the root. An interval is a measurement between a note and the root or founding note. Modes are not patterns and they are not scales. They are modes. It sounds convoluted but people think of modes as just some fancy ass rote memorized scales they shift to different keys. Which brings me to the second point. I'm not sure what you mean here. So I'll address the two things I think you are talking about.

  1. The "Western Major Scale" is just a really well harmonized diatonic "shape." Again, I'm pretty sure I stated briefly in my previous post that most shapes that we use have 7 notes in them before they repeat at an octave. I apologize if that isn't in there but if it is, reread it. Diatonic scales have 7 notes. We have 7 "modes." What is actually happening here is a bastardization of modes and tonic scales. Each scale is a derived movement of certain notes as compared to the major scale. You take the major scale which is unaltered and you alter it. 7 "modes," 7 notes. You see how this was formed sort of? There are many more ways to cram those 7 notes into 12 different notes than what the "standard modes" allow for. A simple example would be Phrygian Dominant. There are probably dozens of diatonic scales. Simply because all you need is a root, 7 notes between and then you hit an octave. Just like a dyad is any 2 notes combined into a chord.
  2. I think you are confusing playing contrasting sounds. While at first you may hit a voila when you realize you can just "slide" or "shift" any mode to a certain point and play from a certain root note and it suddenly becomes some other mode. Hence playing a C major chord progression and playing the major scale pattern with the root on an A. This is just playing the major scale in another key that implies an A minor scale. Technically it is right. Technically it is wrong. Music theory is far from perfect and it gets very convoluted. That is why I said ignore this stupid shit unless you want to learn it. Play what sounds good and ignore this stupid shit.
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Fucking Gegglestock - Sat, 25 Mar 2017 22:25:31 EST ID:1cKIfSje No.448787 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>That's the type of whirlwind stuff going through my head, and I think things like, just three semitones has a certain sound, and wherever you go from there bridges to another sound, you can change patterns to anything on the fly as long as you know the intervals at any given point.
Play what sounds good and resolves well. Or doesn't. Do what you want.

>I like to spend 30-60 minutes just playing nonstop, but these days, a lot more focused and experimental.
Play more.

>Pardon this for being unacademic fluff, but I felt obligated to respond, and yeah. Intervals. But I need to look into the difference between "tonal" and "modal", to get a deeper understanding of "modes" in general, not just music. What exact function does a mode serve over tonal music? Are the sounds just less harmonic, free form? Jazz? So you're just saying in Jazz, shift the modes, don't worry about the structure, but of course most music even free form jazz has a structure, it's just one that isn't rigid, but it's still solid and complete.
You need to grab some books, mostly history books on music theory and start reading to fully even begin to grasp the difference between tonal and modal music. It was a very slow shift from modal music to tonal music. Music is subjective and religion had a huge part. It is completely asinine and is just a bunch of shit to memorize. Like history. Tonal music is really about following your ear and what you want to hear. Relatively free from strict rules. Since all our tastes are different and developed based on sounds heard from childhood and infancy, tonal music is a lot less finite and definable. Modal music simply means playing music that appeases a mode. All chords are based around notes in the mode. All notes are from the mode. All notes in the mode are likely going to be fully observed.

I also didn't mention Jazz either. Jazz is really complex. It is like just saying "metal." There is no defined genre. It is a menagerie of colossal proportions. Jazz and Metal have both attracted the types of people who have a large amount of technical ability and some pretty good theoretical knowledge. The problem is that pretty good theory isn't good enough to make good music. You could know everything about theory and still make a bunch of shit. Theory just states what is observed. People think music theory knowledge will grant the key to making good music and it won't. You can noodle around in an aeolian scale at 15 notes per second and it will sound alright maybe. It could sound amazing. Or it could sound fucking retarded. Theory just states what happened. So you get these guys that play complex shit that has some theory behind it and they call it good and act smug because you can't play the 6th iteration of the Ukrainian Dorian minor over a harmonized chromatic chord progression. Theory has the ability to really allow people to make shitty and repetitive music. I'll show you two things that make me really loathe the theory champions.

  1. People think that improv is the king of music knowledge and ability. This is bullshit, makes people want to quit making music and is fucking repetitive as fuck. And it makes people lazy. Say you have Johnny Metalhead who can play blistering fast in 10 different scales across the whole fretboard without even thinking. Just plop a metronome out at 260 bpm 16th notes and he shreds like a god, "without even practicing this solo ever before." Granted, that is cool as fuck and he has spent hundreds of hours to get there but, his solo likely wasn't thought out when people think it was, it is usually just a ton of notes ran together in a simplistic and repetitive shape, most of them harmonizing or he is playing so fast and "selling it" that it sounds good. EG: Listening with your eyes. And it makes people think that people are just "that good" and can nail shit on the spot. All of this is right and wrong at the same time. He plays music and likely enjoys it. The people listening to it probably enjoyed it too. All is well and good. But people look on at this and think you can just noodle in a scale and sound good. You don't have to put effort in, you can just memorize scales and shit and be awesome, then they think that improv is the pinnacle of musical prowess and ability. So they buy some shitty book like the Guitar Grimoire and call it a day after memorizing a mountain of scales. Then the music is technically amazing but it is souless as fuck typically.
  2. Nobody plays incredible or ground breaking music on the spot or comes up with shit literally in split seconds. The best music takes mountains of time to formulate. To really extract something out of a small motif could take months to end up with something really amazing or incredible. I could pick up my guitar right now and in 2 hours have some really complex and technical solo complete with 2 hand tapping, blistering legato and jumps from all around the fretboard via sweeping and slides. But it likely won't have the same feeling or emotion as something that I wrote over the course of a month. It usually takes me 2 weeks of singing riffs over and over before they all link together or complete themselves or I know where those next notes should go and what they should be. Music is about expressing emotion. People seem to have really forgotten that. I'll again use the example of Kurt Cobain. He resonated with millions upon millions of people because of his emotion poured into his music. Like him or not, he wasn't some amazingly technically skilled musician but he poured his soul into his music.

>So the modes, you're just shifting the intervals, tonal you're ensuring the intervals are all solid and it adheres to a strong structure, modes you're just going off of what is technically possible from that given interval, and the intervals previous. Just have to find the right time to shift to another mode, or just say fuck it and hit another note anyway.
No. Modal is playing what falls into the modes. Shifting around modes or intervals breaks the mold of modal music. Modal music is very definite and rigid. Tonal music is adhering or intentionally not adhering to the tonic centre. Making sure intervals are solid isn't a thing either. An interval expressed a measurement between the root and the note in question. In a basic sense though, yes, modal music is playing what is possible in this certain mode. Shifting to another mode isn't necessarily modal either. Modes are their own entity. Bridging between them is fine but it isn't really modal music. From a theoretical standpoint at least. I've never spent the time to learn the absolute first establishment of modes but I'm fairly sure that when modes were first made from Greek tribes, the certain modes were based off of those tribes and maybe be a sort of national anthem or specific sound that those tribes used. Such as state sponsored music. I could be wrong but that was what I vaguely thought may have happened. Not many musicians were to be found in Greek times you know. Illiteracy and cost and serfdom and all. The Roman Catholic church subsidized certain music and sanctioned others. Seems reasonable to believe a battle anthem of a Greek tribe could be paid by the governing body to be played no?
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Fucking Gegglestock - Sat, 25 Mar 2017 22:31:39 EST ID:1cKIfSje No.448788 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Once again, I will reiterate, play what you like. Play more and more often. Do what you think sounds good and record it. Put it out there and don't be afraid of haters that don't even play or make the effort to do shit that is hard and difficult and don't give a fuck about people that put standards on music.

The only real standards I have on music is that I don't hate it once it is done and that it is in time and that I always need to play more. Music is what you want it to be. Ignore everyone else that says otherwise.
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Samuel Febblebit - Sun, 26 Mar 2017 11:11:00 EST ID:3a/IltZs No.448790 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I agree with the last sentiment, and really when I play or compose something I just go by ear, as that is the final say. Theory can hold you back in a lot of ways, but it can also help you understand what you just did, and help you find new openings and paths to explore, where you can use your own innate rhythms and ear to create something your own.

I'm just going to think of modal music as more arbitrary, and just 'random' rules established to serve the mode as you said, whether that mode is a ceremony of sorts, or whatever. The mode more reflects the culture and their way of life, a mode of living. Or maybe that's too off the deep end and missing every point.
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Henry Sabblefore - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:47:31 EST ID:CTnt0IRh No.448813 Ignore Report Quick Reply
OP, you've stumbled across a wonderful series of notes. It goes by many names and has been used in a variety of musics for a long ass time.

Jews know it as "Ahavah Rabah" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_prayer_modes)
Muslims know it as "Maqam Hijaz" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_maqam)
The Berklee Method calls it "Mixolydian b9 b13 chord scale" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berklee_method)
And most music composers and scholars (like myself, look at my penis), just call it Phrygian Dominant, Freygish, or simply the fifth mode of the harmonic scale. Some Jazz Musicians call it "2 flat 6" according to wikipedia, but I've never heard that. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_dominant_scale)
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Matilda Covinghall - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 19:09:27 EST ID:v9IQ48eC No.448814 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>448790
>I'm just going to think of modal music as more arbitrary, and just 'random' rules established to serve the mode as you said, whether that mode is a ceremony of sorts, or whatever.
I cannot in good faith let you come to believe this. Tonal music implies the common-practice harmonic theory established in the 17th and 18th centuries (roman numeral sequence of tonal fuctional harmony: I-iii-vi-VI-ii-V/vii*-I), whereas modal music doesn't apply functional harmony as we know it in tonality.
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Beatrice Senningfoot - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:35:10 EST ID:qRYg5rDT No.448815 Ignore Report Quick Reply
ctrl f
harmonic dominant
phrase not found

yeah it's the fifth scale of the f harmonic minor scale. if you start on c. resolves to f minor generally, maybe tritone sub to b major but that sounds like a bad idea
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Beatrice Senningfoot - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:46:03 EST ID:qRYg5rDT No.448816 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I've always thought to teach harmony and improv from the understanding of the connection between modes and chords, because that's where chord progressions come from. when a song stays in a key it is using chords built in that key for the most part. deviations are implied key changes or sort of retrospective chord changes that make use of the fact that the chords exist in different keys. sharps and flats get added one black key at a time when moving up fourths or fifths.

major chords are built on alternating major thirds and minor thirds, minor chords are built on alternating minor thirds and major thirds, augmented have only major thirds, diminished have only minor thirds.

there's also other scales like chromatic(all of the notes), whole tone(all whole steps), symmetrical diminished and symmetrical dominant(which alternate between whole steps and half steps or vice versa).


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