420chan now has a web-based IRC client available, right here
Leave these fields empty (spam trap):
Name
You can leave this blank to post anonymously, or you can create a Tripcode by using the float Name#Password
Comment
[*]Italic Text[/*]
[**]Bold Text[/**]
[~]Taimapedia Article[/~]
[%]Spoiler Text[/%]
>Highlight/Quote Text
[pre]Preformatted & Monospace text[/pre]
1. Numbered lists become ordered lists
* Bulleted lists become unordered lists
File

Sandwich


Community Updates

420chan now supports HTTPS! If you find any issues, you may report them in this thread

Now Playing on /m/tube -

Jazz Drumming by Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Fri, 12 May 2017 21:21:02 EST ID:e6AcpIaU No.449209 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1494638462924.jpg -(87662B / 85.61KB, 604x603) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 87662
As a long time drummer, I've always wanted to learn jazz drumming but I never seriously started to learn and practice until now.

I've found a couple sources to help me practice already, but I was wondering if you guys knew any good sources of jazz drumming lessons and stuff of that sort, as well as some personal advice from you fellows.

My main issues are getting good at traditional grip, maintaining that jazz style pattern on the ride cymbal while doing anything with my left hand, and maintaining that hi hat pattern with the pedal while messing with the kick drum. I can maintain a steady pattern with my right hand on the cymbals no problem when I'm doing anything else, but when I try the jazz pattern on the cymbal, using my left hand sometimes interrupts that concentration on the ride cymbal and the result is usually that I forget to hit it on that up beat.

I know there's plenty of content out there that can help me, but it's nice to have some personal feedback.
>>
Frederick Cambleshaw - Fri, 12 May 2017 22:55:03 EST ID:E0MoQB2S No.449210 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494644103913.jpg -(72601B / 70.90KB, 500x313) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Find a private instructor.
Go to a real music school and not any university type nonsense.
Practice and listen to jazz.
Get over the jazz craze if you don't listen to it or play it often.
Learn the Moeller technique.
Practice these.

To be honest, not trying to be a dick but I've seen you post webm of your drumming and you really need to improve your time on the basics first. I wouldn't even attempt to do anything in jazz until you really get your timing down. And internal counting as well as that is far more important. I can feel my way through your standard rock/pop/hip-hop grooves. Jazz will require internal counting until you have it rote memorized.

Also, everyone gets caught up on playing Jazz when really, it just makes you a pretentious musician that is an asshole about "real" music. I don't like Jazz players, never really got into Jazz but heard a million times about how I needed to learn it. And I learned it. And it serves a purpose but I use the millions of more useful drum techniques and styles before it ever comes up. Mostly because nobody likes hearing or playing in weird time signatures or strange beats.

You can also play Jazz with matched grip, German grip, French grip or any style. Traditional is more for rudiments.
>>
Frederick Cambleshaw - Fri, 12 May 2017 22:56:08 EST ID:E0MoQB2S No.449211 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494644168913.jpg -(229903B / 224.51KB, 720x793) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>449210
Also, what city are you in and how much money do you have/willing to make music a career?
>>
Frederick Cambleshaw - Fri, 12 May 2017 22:57:02 EST ID:E0MoQB2S No.449212 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494644222913.jpg -(133849B / 130.71KB, 1088x1408) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
DICKS EVERYWHERE
>>
Frederick Cambleshaw - Fri, 12 May 2017 23:00:52 EST ID:E0MoQB2S No.449213 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494644452913.jpg -(49051B / 47.90KB, 450x627) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
This one is especially useful and very, very flashy once you get them down.

That Jazz thing on the ride is just triplets in 4/4 timing generally.

rest, tat, tat, tat,
rest, tat, tat, tat,
rest, tat, tat, tat,


tat-tat-tat rest

tat-tat-tat rest

tat-tat-tat rest

Accent, tat-tat-tat
Accent, tat-tat-tat
Accent, tat-tat-tat
Accent, tat-tat-tat

Etc.

A way to do it when you are new is to first, slow it way the fuck down, and then swing your stick left-right while striking. Sort of like skipping a rock. It is much easier to get faster by going left-right-left, left-right-left, left-right-left, left-right-left.
>>
Shitting Surryworth - Sat, 13 May 2017 15:30:21 EST ID:hp3AGL3l No.449220 Ignore Report Quick Reply
What the hell.

Just play after some tunes you like. Practice a lot.
>>
Ebenezer Turveyfield - Sat, 13 May 2017 16:10:53 EST ID:k4QQ9sLv No.449221 Ignore Report Quick Reply
basically it's subdivided like a Purdie shuffle. I don't know what a paradiddle is called in triplet sixteenths but those are your friend. syncopation is mandatory.

elvin jones and art blakey were my teachers

and when it comes to learning an instrument, especially with as much motor independence as drums you don't get to make mistakes. playing mistakes is learning mistakes. so slow shit down until it's perfect and you can groove it, then click the metronome up a bit. omit appendages if necessary. and learn all the permutations

also tony williams and billy cobham
>>
Lydia Fillyham - Sat, 13 May 2017 20:11:48 EST ID:VBQxeaW8 No.449225 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449209

Just watch Kids on the Slope
>>
Henry Bobbersid - Sun, 14 May 2017 19:29:53 EST ID:w4O4C5G7 No.449234 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449221
This person knows what's up. Don't practice mistakes, slow it down and take things one limb at a time. They're called paradiddlediddles, by the way.

>>449210
Sounds like you're the pretentious one here. Jazz is 110% music for musicians, and most players I've met are fully aware of this. Sure they can get a little too passionate sometimes, but that's a musician thing, not a jazz thing. Just because you want to play music that appeals to a broader audience doesn't make jazz any less valid. I could make a few remarks about how you sound like an unsuccessful sellout, but that would be equally pretentious and probably inaccurate. You're probably just an intelligent entertainer who understands what people want to hear. PS traditional grip isn't meant for anything these days. It was an adaptation to playing drums worn with a sling which tilted the playing surface dramatically. The only reason it's still around is because musicians like to be overly flashy and don't care about getting carpal tunnel. Trust me, I played a rope-stretched drum for 3 years before playing traditional grip on a flat surface. Pure, painful showmanship.

Therm, just keep practicing. Jazz is incredibly difficult on purpose, but the satisfaction of complete limb independence is amazing. If things aren't working and you get frustrated, switch to something easier for a bit. Don't get in the habit of playing frustrated.
>>
Samuel Bundale - Mon, 15 May 2017 01:31:03 EST ID:E0MoQB2S No.449239 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449234
>Sounds like you're the pretentious one here. Jazz is 110% music for musicians, and most players I've met are fully aware of this.
Depends on the style of Jazz. And yes, most players are aware it is music for musicians but like many metal musicians, it turns into a meritocracy pissing contest. And trust me, comparing yourself to others is a way to ruin music in a hurry.

>Sure they can get a little too passionate sometimes, but that's a musician thing, not a jazz thing.
Honestly, I've only noticed it being a thing in metal, jazz, and ex-high school band musicians. Rarely anyone has as bad of an attitude as Jazz and Metal players. And I'm primarily a metal musician.

>Just because you want to play music that appeals to a broader audience doesn't make jazz any less valid. I could make a few remarks about how you sound like an unsuccessful sellout, but that would be equally pretentious and probably inaccurate. You're probably just an intelligent entertainer who understands what people want to hear.
Actually, I don't even make enough to break even performing metal nor jazz gigs. I only can stay afloat either doing lessons or playing bars/classic tunes that bore the fuck out of me. And I also don't recall stating that Jazz wasn't a respected genre. In fact, I don't respect any genre. It is music, it is someone expressing themselves and is an esoteric means into some of their brain. I either enjoy it or I don't. And that is where it ends.

But you've really got to be making a stretch when you try and argue that you haven't heard a million times about how you should learn Jazz. In fact, I'd think anyone not living under a rock wouldn't have been pressured into playing Jazz at some point. As a drummer first, I caught endless shit for not being into Jazz. Everyone I ran into that was a "respected" musician told me I needed to jump on that train. I'd be baffled if you haven't faced the same peer pressure.

>PS traditional grip isn't meant for anything these days. It was an adaptation to playing drums worn with a sling which tilted the playing surface dramatically. The only reason it's still around is because musicians like to be overly flashy and don't care about getting carpal tunnel. Trust me, I played a rope-stretched drum for 3 years before playing traditional grip on a flat surface. Pure, painful showmanship.
I probably should have made myself clearer but I was tired of writing probably. I maintain that traditional grip is mostly just for rudiments that are played in a marching band.

>Jazz is incredibly difficult on purpose, but the satisfaction of complete limb independence is amazing.
That is exactly what I mean. I hate it when people just make shit arbitrarily difficult just to stroke their ego. When people focus on technicality over the actual music, it just turns into some sport band geeks can compete at. I don't know how many shitty iterations of "too many notes" in metal alone that are just guys making robot noises at lightening speed that have no relation other than just being complex. And they get worshiped just because of their difficult to play music.

I'll never play like Ygnwie Malmsteen. His music just sounds like a mountain of random notes and his sound is literally all the same. He sits around all smug, says he will play something slow and physically cannot go under 200bpm 16th notes. Likely because of his ego. I met more guitarists that do that, "Now I'll do it slow." with a shit eating grin and then still play it too fast to have anyone see what they are doing or how their technique is. It just serves one purpose, stroking your inflated ego. Some guys can apply extreme technicality and do it tastefully. I don't like Animal as Leaders but Tosin Abasi can speak through his instrument. Muhammad Suicmez can play some of the most technical guitar and it still is nothing short of moving.

I don't really find much use for super technical guitar stuff so I learned it in college and then rarely use it. Even in metal. On the flip side, 260 bpm 16th notes on a bass drum is to me a perfect zen of brutality yet having a smooth 8ths subdivision and 130 bpm that is almost the perfect tempo for nodding your head to. It took me years to hit a good 260 bpm on bass drum, but I use it and I can convey what I want through it.

>I dunno mayne. Most all the guys into Jazz I've played with and met were in it for one reason. And that is being a smug prick. My whole point to Thermo was don't bother with Jazz if you don't listen to it and don't want to play it. You can get technical as fuck in any genre. Jazz is FAR from the only technical drumming genre. Play what you like and what you want. Don't play for other people's standards or opinions. Unless of course music is your career and then you are forced to do that.
>>
Samuel Bundale - Mon, 15 May 2017 01:43:14 EST ID:E0MoQB2S No.449240 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449239
>In addition, the most important part of being a drummer is buying a decent fucking drum stool.

>The second most important part of being a drummer is hearing protection.

>Third is good stick technique that doesn't paralyze your hands.

Seriously, spend at least 150 dollars on a good seat and sit properly. A back rest is a must in my opinion. I will never go back to shitty seats. Ever again.
>>
Doris Cleffingman - Mon, 15 May 2017 12:59:53 EST ID:3a/IltZs No.449244 Ignore Report Quick Reply
If it's about syncopation, there is an actual feeling in your brain you will physically feel when you hit that division spot and start expanding outward. Focus on one point while controlling the other, and you'll end up in two zones at once.
>>
Charles Pingerson - Tue, 16 May 2017 18:19:36 EST ID:w4O4C5G7 No.449251 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449239
>>449240

So you hate jazz for being difficult, but hate playing simple stuff because it bores you?

I completely agree about having a good seat, hearing protection, and technique.
>>
Martha Clonderhig - Tue, 16 May 2017 20:36:40 EST ID:1aLInLsL No.449256 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449251
God you are oversimplifying everything. Can you grasp the point of anything?

>Simple bar tunes that are cheesy shit about women and have been played a million times are boring.
>Jazz or any music that exists solely for the sake of trying to be difficult to play is annoying.

Music that serves as a form of expression is fun and enjoyable to play and listen to. Music that is just a bunch of arbitrarily difficult shit built from the exceptions to the rules of music theory is literally painful. Rock bands cashing in on the pussy craze of the 70's and 80's by making generic and boring songs are just as painful.

But yes, I think the worst music you can listen to or play is music that was constructed solely from the annals and encyclopedias of the most advanced music theory. It is just humans trying to be robots and make something that impresses "fellow" musicians so they can stroke their ego.

Again, the saying is Music Theory is descriptive. Not Prescriptive. People seem to think Music Theory is a rule book by which you can make better music by and simple linear relationship between how much you know and that isn't the case. Music theory is just an explanation of what is going on. Not a structure to build music from.

>And specifically to you thermo, buy a fucking expensive drum stool damn it.

Buy a good throne god damn it.
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Tue, 16 May 2017 22:19:49 EST ID:e6AcpIaU No.449257 Report Quick Reply
1494987589603.jpg -(36487B / 35.63KB, 505x626) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
I haven't responded because this thread has made me want to say so many things but I haven't found the time. But I will say this for now because it kept running through my head at work today. That quote "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." Well I feel like the same concept applies to anything, including music. I happen to actually like the sound of jazz, and I always seemed to naturally lean towards triplets since I was able to actually drum. What is life without the constant overcoming of challenges?

I have never been told what kind of stuff to play by anyone, btw, so idk what you're talking about there. I just wanted to pick up jazz drumming because it appeals to me. I didn't know there was a "jazz craze" i just like to dive into styles of music I genuinely find appealing, what other reason would there be really?? Like, I consider Autechre to be my favorite musical artist, so Jazz seems pretty straight forward to me at this point, in terms of sounds and patterns and such.

And I am fully aware of what those webms sound like, I know you're not being a dick. I'm just not worried about it too much because my timing wasn't always that bad, I'm just gonna chalk it up to not having played drums for years and just need to make sure I don't make wrong things into habits.

And yes a lot of basic concepts have been explained to me in this thread, which I do already understand and still appreciate the help, but I mainly am just having issues with those particular things I listed in the op. Of course I am slowing shit I have trouble with way the fuck down. And I've been practicing paradiddle diddles and things, and playing simple jazz patters over and over to get the hang of them, and it is helping, I am getting better at not forgetting that one hit on the ride which is really the only hurdle i'm having. Well that and the the hi hat part. But like it all makes complete sense to me and everything, it's just a matter of becoming physically capable of doing it.

I also do already have a couple books that I've had for a while that I should look into more I'm sure, like Stick Control by George Lawrence Stone and Master Studies by Joe Morello.

This thread has helped and has become a more interesting conversation than I thought it would be... Thanks for the insight so far, guys. I never noticed a problem with my throne but i will go shopping for one and see what happens. I mean, I didn't even know I needed glasses until I got them.
>>
Cornelius Grimson - Tue, 16 May 2017 23:35:25 EST ID:w4O4C5G7 No.449258 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494992125793.png -(114859B / 112.17KB, 688x1434) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>449256
So the millions of people who love Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Jaco Pastorius, Charles Mingus, Art Blakey, and John Coltrane are wrong? They're in pain but don't really know it? A whole generation of music lovers was totally ignorant to your obviously superior music tastes? I think you're the one oversimplifying things and not getting it.

What if I said metal is painful to listen to because it's just a bunch of dudes bellowing about how life sucks and playing blast beats like robots? They're not even good robots because 9 times out of 10 the drums are sample-replaced and quantized. Look at me, I can tune my guitar down to drop C, go chugchugchug and be a badass! Growling about raping babies is edgy and will get me attention!

Pretty stupid things to say, right? Writing off a whole genre because there are bad acts is ignorant.

Someone asked for tips on how to learn a musical genre that speaks to them. Then you jackals come in and say "wah jazz is bad don't do it Therm!" What the FUCK is wrong with you? Discouraging a fellow musician from following his passion, improving his skill set, and broadening his horizons?

And why is a song about a woman cheesy? Seriously. Have you never been attracted to someone before? Is the concept of love cheesy to you? Heaven forbid someone write a song that a lot of people identify with so strongly that it becomes a classic!

To make myself crystal clear: there is good and bad music in every genre. Music is always a form of expression, but a lot of people use it to express the wrong thing. Pure arrogance and self-centered showmanship? Bad. We're on the same page in that respect.

To keep this on topic, here's another tip: a confident mistake isn't really a mistake. If you listen closely to a lot of jazz recordings, they rarely keep a consistent pattern on the ride or hi-hat for long when things get cookin. Sure, it's the same basic rhythm, but they'll omit/add notes every few beats. It's not planned, it's just felt. If you're trying to keep the pattern 100% consistent, these would be considered mistakes. Because they are played with confidence and still in time, they're not.
>>
Martin Blatherman - Thu, 18 May 2017 18:09:24 EST ID:gbYuT3Zr No.449271 Ignore Report Quick Reply
...jazz is not that hard. and it's not pretentious. chet baker was a terrible trumpet player and coltrane was a heroin addict. its just music dudes
>>
Nell Grandwill - Thu, 18 May 2017 22:54:43 EST ID:ORPHSnna No.449277 Ignore Report Quick Reply
So did you watch Kids on the Slope or what?
>>
idiot - Thu, 18 May 2017 23:20:34 EST ID:15XxjLlv No.449278 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449277
I did
>>
Betsy Commlenock - Fri, 19 May 2017 18:10:30 EST ID:+WmSNQhp No.449293 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449256
You're a complete fucking idiot.

I hope your life becomes terrible in the near future.
>>
Hamilton Hacklebeg - Sun, 21 May 2017 01:14:25 EST ID:dFiTXoun No.449302 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449209
Buy "syncopation for the modern drummer", the "rudimental cookbook", and "stick control for the snare drummer". All three books are pretty cheap. Learn them all. Use a metronome when you practice. Regardless of what percussion you want to play, those three books will help.

For jazz, listen to some Philly Joe Jones, download or buy some sheet music to go with it, play along.

Music lessons are a good idea if you can afford them.
>>
Nigel Pollystudge - Sun, 21 May 2017 03:31:06 EST ID:1aLInLsL No.449303 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449302
Stick Control would literally take you 20 years to master. To honestly and truly just go through the whole book once would take easily 2-4 years.
>>
Hamilton Hacklebeg - Sun, 21 May 2017 05:58:48 EST ID:dFiTXoun No.449304 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449303
But it would be 20 years well spent. Seriously though, OP may not master the books, but practicing them will help regardless. But I have no real idea of OPs skill level or prior experience, so generalized advice will have to do.


>>449209
And OP, don't worry about dicking around with traditional grip. Start with whatever grip you're most comfortable with. Get the basics down, then worry about alternate grips.

Practice each limb individually. Pick a measure, and play it over and over, non-stop, until you don't even need to think about it to keep it going. Then practice another limb. After that one is well ingrained, go back to the first, then after you're going on muscle memory, add in that second limb. It's tedious and a bit boring, but boring practice works. Before long you'll simply get the hang of having each limb working separately.

And like others said, invest in a good throne and hearing protection.
>>
Nigel Pollystudge - Sun, 21 May 2017 06:34:18 EST ID:1aLInLsL No.449305 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1495362858397.jpg -(2827962B / 2.70MB, 4032x2272) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>449304
Stick Control is honestly really only recommend for pages 5, 6, and 7. Nobody ever makes it to playing this kind of shit unless they are just weird or something.
>>
Esther Clundersine - Tue, 23 May 2017 21:30:03 EST ID:ETbP19ez No.449328 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449305
What? Those look like some typical exercises there. Last I formally touched percussion was in high school band and our section went through exercises like that every morning.

Practicing different rhythms in isolation is good, be sure to apply it to something eventually and play it in context ya know?
>>
Phyllis Demblelock - Tue, 23 May 2017 23:23:21 EST ID:DBaRBHeU No.449329 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449305
you'd be surprised what you learn when you play weird phrasing
>>
Martha Buggleridge - Wed, 24 May 2017 04:30:31 EST ID:kVyFqr6p No.449330 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449328
Yeah but if you actually learned the book as is recommended by George Stone, it would take you ages to get to those pages. And they are more for snare solo's anyways. Don't think Thermo is looking for that.

I had a book from guitar center which was all beats. It had well over a thousand and half the book was highly complex beats. I wish I could find it. Stick Control really is only used for the first couple pages as I maintain.
>>
Esther Clundersine - Wed, 24 May 2017 07:43:23 EST ID:ETbP19ez No.449332 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449330
Ah gotcha, does he recommend memorizing them or accenting different beats each time or the like?

I have a rhythm book for guitar I like that goes through all variations on a certain pattern, then gives you a short piece to sight read that uses them mixed up. I thought it was great but honestly I don't know if it helped me any more than sight reading Zelda music.
>>
Esther Clundersine - Wed, 24 May 2017 07:45:19 EST ID:ETbP19ez No.449333 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449332
Also, Therm, you might benefit from making arrangements of Real Book tunes in Ableton and then playing the drum parts yourself. If you ever play with a jazz ensemble, you'll likely play from the real book every now and then.
>>
Martha Buggleridge - Wed, 24 May 2017 09:41:17 EST ID:kVyFqr6p No.449334 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449332
>The author recommends that each rhythm be practised 20 times without stopping. Then go on to the next one. This is important. "Stick Control" cannot serve its purpose as well in any other way practise with the metronome is also recommended, and at several different speeds, varying from extremely slow to extremely fast; and again without the metronome, in the open and closed style, i.e., stating very slowly, gradually accelerating to top speed, then slowing down again, finally ending at the original tempo.

Taken from the book word for word.

So basically, the first exercise is
RLRL-RLRL-RLRL-RLRL

Play that through 20 times at about 50 bpm up to probably at least 200. Since this is in 8th notes on the exercise, listen to either 400bpm 8th notes or 200 bpm and be sure to count as 1&2&3&4&. At high tempos you may be forced to count 1234 or shift into playing it as a roll counting only 1 or 1-3-1-3 etc as necessary. To count to 20, you do this:

1234
2234
3234
4234
5234
6234
7234
8234
9234
10234
Start over and do 1 more time because extra syllables will fuck up your count. Also, in music, 7 is just Sev. Not Sev-And.
Then you've done 20 bars.

The other thing that George Stone emphasized is that you absolutely must only change tempo's after you can play through 20 bars without any mistakes multiple times. He also encourages being able to play up to a closed roll tempo for each rudiment and most progressions to a very high speed.

Doing all of stick control to his standards would literally take decades. He likely never even finished his whole book to his standards. And it is unnecessary as well. Use the basic pages, really dig into page 5 and just use the rest for goofing around with. Page 5 is the most important by far.
>>
James Murdson - Thu, 25 May 2017 02:08:40 EST ID:+8uAGJ5r No.449343 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>449333
blehhhhhh listen to the albums


Report Post
Reason
Note
Please be descriptive with report notes,
this helps staff resolve issues quicker.