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Ukraine threatens to ban handicapped singer from Eurovision for performing in Crimea by Nell Nullychit - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:23:07 EST ID:Zxl3/gqr No.156801 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1490034187835.jpg -(32949B / 32.18KB, 318x318) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 32949
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/mar/13/russia-strikes-provocative-note-for-eurovision-in-ukraine

Ukraine threatens to ban a handicapped Russian singer from Eurovision for performing in Crimea and possibly having a different opinion from Poroshenko on Crimea.

The fuck happened to Eurovision not being political though? I can't understand why the majority of governments in Europe and America would choose to support this fucked up government when it is both the most corrupt, the poorest, and likely one of the least democratic countries in all of Europe
>>
Walter Wenderdure - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:31:35 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156803 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1490034695733.gif -(367140B / 358.54KB, 318x306) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>this fucked up government when it is both the most corrupt, the poorest, and likely one of the least democratic countries in all of Europe

Are you talking about Ukraine or Russia? I am guessing you're talking about Russia.
>>
Lillian Drorryfitch - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:46:49 EST ID:RobSWhnf No.156804 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156803
lol i was confused too. ukraine is poorer than russia, but they're somewhat more democratic. at the same time though in terms of corruption they're neck and neck.
>>
Nell Nullychit - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 17:01:59 EST ID:Zxl3/gqr No.156809 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156803

are you going to discuss the topic at hand or are you just here to troll?

>>156804

I really doubt they're realistically neck and neck in corruption unless you mean that perceived corruption index thing. Fuck's sake one of them is headed by a chocolate business billionaire with a 6% approval rating yet somehow there is no Maidan 2.0 yet?
>>
Samuel Neshlit - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 21:00:35 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156813 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156809
Well just a few hours ago news broke that Russian mafia, government officials and FSB agents have been using corrupt Moldavian judges to launder 19 billion euro through 732 banks. Pretty sure that means Russia beats Ukraine in terms of corruption on a cosmic scale.
>>
Angus Greenshaw - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 22:09:15 EST ID:bq9mUpwR No.156816 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156803
>I am guessing you're talking about Russia.
He fucking has to be. Literally nobody's trolling can be that weak and obvious.
>>
Cornelius Dronningchudge - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 22:30:25 EST ID:PFag3SaR No.156817 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1490063425502.jpg -(41906B / 40.92KB, 700x510) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>156809
yeah, and the other is head by this guy. 'nuff said.

>>156813
and then there's shit like this.

the big difference is between external vs internal corruption. ukraine, being a poor, broke ass country is more susceptible to external influence, including corruption, both governmental and corporate. russia, on the hand, with its vast worldwide mafia network and shadowy government bureaucracy is a net exporter of corruption.
>>
William Pittford - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 23:22:50 EST ID:Zxl3/gqr No.156820 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156813

source pls?
>>
William Pittford - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 23:30:22 EST ID:Zxl3/gqr No.156821 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156817

"that guy" pulled Russia out of the shitter in the 90s. Poroshenko is just plundering his country. If he didn't have Russia as the main enemy, he'd be ousted at the drop of a hat because he's done nothing for Ukraine but cry about Crimea. As for the corruption thing i wanna see a source for it so I'll discuss it later.

Sre you guys simply going to ignore the topic I brought up? Second time I'm asking since ya'll keep derailing this shit and turning it into a /pol/ thread instead of discussing the news that I've posted in the OP
>>
Basil Gurringhall - Mon, 20 Mar 2017 23:36:00 EST ID:aIivaRsS No.156822 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156821
You're not asking anything. A dispute about a Eurovision singer? Really?
>>
Samuel Neshlit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 08:41:59 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156824 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156820
Some of it is in Dutch.
http://nltimes.nl/2017/03/21/dutch-banks-accused-aiding-russian-money-laundering-scheme
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/20/british-banks-handled-vast-sums-of-laundered-russian-money
https://www.americanbanker.com/articles/laundered-russian-cash-flowed-through-major-banks-report
http://nos.nl/artikel/2164221-russische-miljarden-witgewassen-via-wereldwijde-wasmachine.html
http://nos.nl/artikel/2164269-banken-leunen-echt-niet-achterover-bij-witwaspraktijken.html
>>
Esther Boblingworth - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:18:53 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156829 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156824

Holy shit. That's pretty fucked up. 20 billion Euros OUT of the economy? Shit. That's a ridiculous amount of hospitals and other infrastructure they could have put up. To be honest, I hope both Ukraine and Russia get that shit under control, I'm just seriously annoyed by Ukraine's sheer political idiotism at the moment and US+European naivety in supporting them.

>>156822

Yeah. I think it only serves to increase tension between Ukraine's government and Russia's government. Nobody needs that shit. What do you think?

I sure as fuck didn't post it because I'm secretly hoping for some Russia vs Ukraine /pol/ thread. If you don't wanna discuss what I posted then why are you replying to this thread at all?
>>
Charlotte Crengerperk - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:44:43 EST ID:fIz9xdLH No.156830 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156821

And Hitler pulled Germany out of the shitter of the 20s. That doesn't mean he was a good person, or that his actions contributed positively to the world's stability (spoiler: they very much didn't). Unscrupulous autocrats tend to have short term gains and long term losses for any country they swindle their way to the top of. Hate to jump straight into Godwin's Law territory, but it's the easiest way to completely deflate that argument.

And what topic? I would scarcely even consider this world news to begin with. It's pretty obvious that Russia deliberately decided to put forth a contestant who was both controversial to the Ukrainians as well as suffering from a sympathetic condition, in order to twist the whole situation into a propaganda piece with the purpose of slandering Ukraine, as they very much like to do.

Their basic bitch psyop bullshit is pretty routine and old hat, at this point, so you'll have to forgive me if there's not a whole lot to really say about it.
>>
Esther Boblingworth - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 12:56:02 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156831 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156830

You really can't compare Putin with Hitler. That's just hilarious to even think of. Hitler mobilized the German people using their nationalistic and racist tendencies at the time, and when that didn't work, then by brute force. I don't see any work camps in Russia though.

If Russia was left in the state it was in the 90s you can bet that the Russian mafia would have grown even stronger than it is now and there would be a lot more corruption in the world coming out of Russia. Have you seen what was happening in Russia in the 90s? It was beyond fucked up. Putin, while he likely did commit quite a few crimes and cut an uncomfortable amount of corners, stabilized the largest country in the world and made it a player on the world arena again. He is the right man at the right time. Honestly I think he should move Russia economically to self sufficiency to make up for the new sanctions and all but that's another topic for another thread.

If this was a basic propaganda campaign made to slander Ukraine, then why is it working? Why do think that you see something that the Ukrainian government doesn't? Ukraine would have been seen in a much better light if they had simply let her sing, but no they have to make it political and cause a shitstorm yet again.
>>
Reuben Webberlock - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 13:26:49 EST ID:uwlXhblw No.156832 Ignore Report Quick Reply
At this point I wouldnt mind if Russia just seized Ukraine entirely.

All Western media is like "Bad Russians!" Whilst completely forgetting about the civil war, which coincidentally happened after their President didnt play ball with the EU.
>>
Samuel Neshlit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 14:41:50 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156838 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156831
>Hitler mobilized the German people using their nationalistic and racist tendencies at the time, and when that didn't work, then by brute force. I don't see any work camps in Russia though.

But Putin is using nationalistic and racist tendencies, just look what they're doing to every religious organisation that isn't Moscow aligned orthodox-christianity or Moscow aligned islam. And they do use brute force, the list of murdered Russian dissidents is absurd, they make North-Korea look like Switzerland. And Russia is full of work camps. The Duma just renames work camps as drugs addict aid, prostitute aid, STD aid, degenerate aid, etc.
>>
Samuel Neshlit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 14:48:50 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156839 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156832
Also, that civil war happened after their president didn't play ball with the EU while over 75% of the population wanted to play ball with the EU. The civil war with Russia isn't fought all over the country. It's only fought at the border with Russia.
>>
Nicholas Harringshit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:46:36 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.156842 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156821
>pulled Russia out of the shitter in the 90s
just like Obama pulled the US out of the shitter in the 90s? oh wait, but in that case you won't give him credit even though he was the leader of the country at the time, lol.

>>156831
>You really can't compare Putin with Hitler.
but then...
>Hitler mobilized the German people using their nationalistic and racist tendencies at the time
>and when that didn't work, then by brute force.
LOL exactly as Putin is doing.
>>
Isabella Fimmleson - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:48:19 EST ID:8uzKCj4/ No.156843 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156838
Putin is awful and while he's not Hitler or Stalin level awful saying he's anything but a bad thing is outright denial. He's also STILL balls deep in 3 billion dollars of laundered money as discovered last year and still being traced. The guy is a mafia/oligarch stooge, is pushing his country to the stone age and fiddles his elections.

That's just the stuff he's just ignoring that he's been caught doing. The guy's pretty crafty as he pretended Yeltzin was alive for several months while running the country in his stead anyone else old enough to remember how Yeltzin took ill for several months and there were some really sketchy sightings ie him in a long coat with sunglasses 200m away for a while before they admitted he'd been dead a while? I do and it was weird as hell so I'm sure there's a raft of shit we haven't caught him doing. Like a tip of the crime iceberg deal.
>>
Esther Boblingworth - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:49:52 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156844 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156838

What racist nationalist tendencies is he using? A nationalistic Russian is hard to even imagine to me unless you pervert the meaning of the word "nationalism" to something else. I also haven't heard anything about the religious organisations, but a few google searches gave me the Yarovaya Law, which ok, I disagree with, but that's hardly a reason to compare Putin to Hitler. The fucking thing is nearly impossible to implement anyway so it effectively just blocks people from going door to door knocking trying to convince you that their religion is the correct one. It doesn't mean there is zero religious freedom in Russia, there are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, even Taoists in Russia and they get around fine.

>they make North Korea look like Switzerland

Well that claim is just absurd and laughable. It is no North Korea in any way. It may not have much freedom of the press but if Ukraine can't even allow a singer from Crimea who might possibly think that Crimea is Russian to sing in Eurovision, then I'd say Ukraine has more problems with freedom. In terms of freedom of press and freedom of speech from greatest to least, it's Russia, then Ukraine close by, then North Korea way down at the bottom.

Quit trying to compare Putin to Hitler, the "work camps" that you mentioned bear no fucking resemblance to Nazi camps. Get your head out of your ass.
>>
Nicholas Harringshit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:50:32 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.156845 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156842
>pulled the US out of the shitter in the 90s
out of the late 2000s, derp.
>>
Nicholas Harringshit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:52:28 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.156846 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156844
his whole rally to ukraine/crimea was about ethnic russians being harmed. this is partly why the batlic countries, with so many ethnic russians there, are so worried. he's also using holdover ostalgia nationalism as a way to entice people in regions like transinistria and belarus.
>>
Esther Boblingworth - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:55:10 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156847 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156843

I'm not gonna dispute the fact that he's bad to individuals and individual freedom (like many others really. It's a shared problem) and he very likely has a bunch of criminal shit still locked in the closet, but when it comes to collective prosperity and results, well, saying that Russia hadn't made a really quick comeback under his leadership would be outright denial as well
>>
Esther Boblingworth - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 17:04:07 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156848 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156846

You mean you wouldn't care if millions of people of your ethnic background in another country were in danger thanks to a nationalistic revolt against the governent of that country? That seems foreign to me personally
>>
Samuel Neshlit - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 17:52:10 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156849 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156848
I don't think the collapse of the Soviet Union counts as a nationalistic revolt.
>>
Angus Greenshaw - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 18:48:16 EST ID:bq9mUpwR No.156850 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156848
Bear in mind that most of Putin's precious ethnic group was only in Ukraine because of the soviet Russification policies to begin with. If you identify with another nation to the point of violence, then maybe you should just fucking move a hundred kilometers east and be done with it? But that's not what it was ever actually about in the first place who fucking cares?
>>
Esther Boblingworth - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 19:24:46 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156851 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156850

What violence? There was a nonviolent referendum. Also if you knew your history you'd know Crimea was originally a Russian/Soviet territory, it was handed over by Khruschev to the Ukrainian SSR for reasons beyond my knowledge.

>>156849

I wasn't talking about the Soviet collapse.
>>
Isabella Crablingson - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 21:35:16 EST ID:lYEV514W No.156852 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156851
Dude, no backsies...first rule of statecraft.
>>
Edwin Sinkinbury - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 22:02:37 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.156854 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156848
so then you admit then that putin uses racial tensions and nationalism to manipulate russia's populace. thanks, i guess.

also, if you're going to ascribe russia's economic recovery to putin's doings, i hope you're prepared to ascribe america's economic recoveries during it's depressions to FDR and obama.

it counts for putin but not for obama doe becuz raisins.
>>
William Lightbanks - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:17:42 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156857 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156854

Caring about people of your ethnic background != nationalism or racism at all.

And wtf have FDR and Obama have to do with this? I will say though that Russia is quite a bit more autocratic than the US so more responsibility rests on Putin's shoulders compared to the rest of his government as opposed to Obama/FDR so you can't really say the same thing about them. But whatever floats your boat, I just don't see how they have any bearing on this discussion at all
>>
Martin Grandway - Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:25:47 EST ID:aIivaRsS No.156858 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156851
>Also if you knew your history you'd know Crimea was originally a Russian/Soviet territory, it was handed over by Khruschev to the Ukrainian SSR for reasons beyond my knowledge.

and if you knew YOUR history, you know Russia signed an agreement with Ukraine respect its borders without dispute in return for returning all the nukes that the soviets placed there before the fall.
>>
David Bommermock - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:04:12 EST ID:fIz9xdLH No.156863 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156831
>You really can't compare Putin with Hitler.

That's debatable, though considering I wasn't even directly comparing them to begin with, only using Hitler for a simple analogy of how bad leaders can still get positive results, your entire argument seems like a straw man.

>If this was a basic propaganda campaign made to slander Ukraine, then why is it working? Why do think that you see something that the Ukrainian government doesn't?

When did I imply they didn't see it? Russia intentionally put them in the position of either denying entry of a contestant they viewed as intentionally inflammatory. Their choice was to either allow that manipulation and bite their tongues, or fall into the propaganda trap, and they simply chose the latter.
>>
Reuben Cronnerway - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:41:29 EST ID:UK3HFt8a No.156865 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156857
>Caring about people of your ethnic background != nationalism or racism at all
lol this is literally the excuse white nationalists always try to spin.

>we're NOT about hating other races! we're only about LOVING OUR RACE!!!!
>this is about WHITE GENOCIDE!!!
>that's why we must preemptively ATTACK!!!

literally. the same.

and as to nationalism... lol are you really that dense? do you really think nationalism isn't on the rise in russia, or that putin doesn't use that nationalism?

>CRIMEA WAS ALWAY PART OF RUSSIA!
>IRREDENTISM AHOY!!!

how is that not fucking nationalism.

PS crimea used to be part of the ottoman empire before it was russian so better give it back to turkey according to your logic.
>>
Sophie Bablingbare - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 13:22:20 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156872 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Fun sidenote, Jehovah Witnesses just got banned in Russia for being a "terrorist organisation".

Having to deal with some Christian fuckhead during the wake-and-bake is annoying as fuck, but I wouldn't call it a terrorist attack.
>>
David Bommermock - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:23:42 EST ID:fIz9xdLH No.156877 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156872

It has more to do with the fact that one of the tenets of their religion is the refusal to honor national symbols or show reverence for any government institution, e.g. they don't join the military, don't sing anthems, salute flags, etc., and given how hyper-nationalistic Russia is, they probably don't want that anywhere near their country. Nazi Germany tried to get rid of the Jehovah's Witnesses too, if that's any indication of where Russia's headed.
>>
Hedda Nellyspear - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:11:59 EST ID:oZJGcYCn No.156880 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156865

>implying I'm a white nationalist

Oh Reuben. Last time I checked, Ukrainians were also white.

>>156877

Nazi Germany did a whoooole lot of other things besides try to get rid of Jehovah's Witnesses. They also implemented a racist eugenics program, the Holocaust, a secret police, and many other things that blow everything else away. Believing Russia is headed in that direction is akin to believing the US is headed in the same direction (it's not)

>>156858

Well, that is the topic of a whole nother debate, whether or not Crimea (whose official name is the Autonomous Republic of Crimea) had the autonomy to secede from Ukraine, join Russia as a federal republic for protection from Ukraine, etc. If the millions of people were dissatisfied were Russian rule in Crimea you would have heard about it. But, you don't hear anything, which means only the Ukrainian government has a problem with it, and that just says that it is a simple game of geopolitics
>>
Ian Gindlewater - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 20:55:51 EST ID:lYEV514W No.156884 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>156880
>Oh Reuben. Last time I checked, Ukrainians were also white.

I though this Chan had long ago established that any Slavs are simply albino ditch apes dressed in Adidas track suits and squatting in doorways all day. Not like, you know, actual people...
>>
Archie Mudgedatch - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 21:48:29 EST ID:xWxEJWcv No.156888 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156880
>implying that post implied you're a white nationalist.

being this stupid we can't expect anything better of you. fairly clear that it's about russians/putin using the same argument white nationalists do.

can you elaborate on how you came to see that post as referring to you as a white nationalist? alternatively you can save us all the time and just admit you're not a very smart man.
>>
Beatrice Clivingmud - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:13:55 EST ID:oZJGcYCn No.156890 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156888

If that post didn't imply I'm a white nationalist, then why did you bring up white nationalists at all? By ethnic background I meant Russian background, not white skin...

Referring back to >>156865 I can argue that basically all of Ukraine belonged to the Russian empire during the time that Crimea was part of the Ottoman Empire. Going back that far isn't going to do anyone good so let's not. Crimea was part of the RSFSR just about three generations ago, Ukraine had a revolution that had Ukrainian nationalists going fucking ham, the Crimean Autonomic Republic democratically seceded and rejoined Russia which was the only state that could protect it from Ukraine's anti-Russian sentiment. Obviously there is a geopolitical motive for Putin to have Crimea. No shit. Every country has its own interests. The fact is the people of Crimea benefited, evident through the fact that you don't hear any complaints from them, the Russian government benefited, and only Ukraine lost because of their idiocy in revolting.

I mean fuck, did they really think they were going to join the EU? The EU had a unionwide financial crisis because of the Greek government spending more than it could get in taxes. They think UKRAINE is gonna be a safe bet? Where corruption is at least as commonplace as in Russia? No. Ukraine will not be part of the EU until they get their shit together which isn't going to happen under the current government being political idiots and corrupt business interests.
>>
Beatrice Clivingmud - Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:35:11 EST ID:oZJGcYCn No.156892 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156863

Finally I get to probably one of the more intelligent posters in this thread

If the point of your post was to show that bad leaders can still have positive results, well.. yeah you're right. This is true. I don't think I ever claimed that Putin was a good person or that he achieved these results using purely ethical means, but then again, almost no leader can achieve this in countries as large as Russia without cutting corners unless they happen to be a leader that is so great that he is a statistical anomaly. A genius basically. The most I have claimed was that Putin is the right man at the right time. No other Russian has so far gotten better results than him for quite a few transfers of power. And when the political situation is as serious as Russia's, people tend to flock to the man who gets positive results first.

As for the Eurovision thing, I really don't see how Ukraine could have suffered by letting the Russian contestant sing. Even if it is a manipulation, all it would have shown was that Ukraine could put politics aside for anonpolitical singing contest and would have looked better in the eyes of the world. The song they chose didn't have a political message so I seriously don't see how this was anything but free political brownie points.
>>
William Bledgedock - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:12:51 EST ID:aIivaRsS No.156894 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156890
Are you really arguing self-determination as justification for allowing Crimea to be annexed when Russia reduced Chechnya to a complete fucking wasteland for 10 years?
>>
Phoebe Chimblesot - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 09:35:22 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156906 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156890
The Crimean Autonomic Republic did not democratically secede.

The West wouldn't have had a problem if Crimea had democratically seceded.

Thing is, before the Crimean referendum on whether they wanted to go to Ukraine or Russia, Russian soldiers and pro-Russian militias had already chased off Ukrainian soldiers from their barracks and most pro-Ukraine Crimeans had already fled the area out of fear of violence.

You actually think Putin would let such an important piece of land like Crimea decide democratically whether they want to go to the Ukraine or Russia? When he won't even allow democratic elections in Russia itself?
>>
Phoebe Chimblesot - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 09:38:43 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.156907 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Also, just in the news. A Russian former-politician with friendly contacts to the Ukraine just got assassinated in Kiev. He was supposed to help the Ukrainian government get some hard evidence of Russian dickery across the border, but now he's dead.

Whole lotta things going on in Russia right now. Only a few days ago that a lawyer working often for Russian dissidents/opposition got pushed off a building and ended up in the hospital.
>>
Caroline Blagglemudge - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:55:14 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.156913 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156890
>If that post didn't imply I'm a white nationalist, then why did you bring up white nationalists at all?
lol how the hell else are you supposed to compare russia's tactics to white nationalists' tactics without bringing up... durrrr... white nationalists? i think you've become hyper sensitive about being accused of that or something.

>Going back that far isn't going to do anyone good so let's not.
ho boy lol. here we go with the "that's too far back in the past though, but my thing is close enough that it still conveniently ounts." whenever you get these irridentist arguments, it always boils down to this. how far back until you just have to give up? answer: however far back that your side doesn't have to give up any territory but you still get to claim yours.

>The fact is the people of Crimea benefited
they're actually poorer for it, and now have to deal with international isolation.

>evident through the fact that you don't hear any complaints from them
yes you do. utility scarcity is a big thing for instance. but people are afraid to blame putin.

>EU
off on a tangent i see. anyway, that wouldn't have happened anytime soon, if ever, but if ukraine wanted that that should be entirely up to ukraine, not russia.

>until they get their shit together
the fact is russia doesn't want them to get their shit together. if they did, they'd risk losing them to the west, no longer being dependent on big mother russia.
>>
Emma Fuckingwater - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:51:00 EST ID:HZmG5IpM No.156918 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156894

Chechnya didn't have any referendum, it tried to secede by using military force. No shit that Russia would use military force in return, with their reasoning being that Chechen terrorists are trying to revolt against the government. Something like what Ukraine is doing to Donbass, which is also trying to secede using military means.

>>156906

Do you think the West would recognize the referendum if it represented a shift in the balance of power towards Russia? Of course not. Besides that, polling way before the 2014 revolution (in 2008) showed that Crimea wanted to secede even before Ukraine ousted their government. Any secession of any state from their country is bound to be chaotic especially since many people from outside the region don't understand the circumstances

>>156913
>lol how the hell else are you supposed to compare russia's tactics to white nationalists' tactics without bringing up... durrrr... white nationalists?

Again, last time I checked, Ukrainians were also white. So any "white nationalist tactics" wouldn't work here.

>how far back until you just have to give up?

Well that's honestly a blurry line but the whole point of my argument was that if we go back to the time you're talking about, all of Ukraine would be a subject of the Russian Federation. Why would that be any less convenient for us?

>Crimea's international isolation

like you or anyone outside of Crimea gave a fuck about it before this

>utility scarcity

ehhh I've heard about that too, but really I think it's because Russia hasn't had enough time due to bureaucracy and probably corruption to hook them up with electricity and bridges to the Russian mainland yet, while Ukraine cut them off, so scarcity is bound to exist.

>if ukraine wanted that that should be entirely up to ukraine, not russia.

True, though the revolution was not a good way to do it. Ukraine now has even less of their shit together and even more corruption since they deposed their president. The EU would never have accepted them before the revolution and they just made sure of that in 2014. The fact is Russia doesn't want them to join the West not because of some power trip but because it's threatened by NATO, which would have been the next step for Ukraine. American troops recently landed in Poland to conduct military training and miscellaneous saber rattling. One could argue that this is in response to Russia's actions, but you can bet that they would have some sneaky shit going on in Ukraine for some other reason had Ukraine joined the EU and NATO.
>>
William Bledgedock - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:37:22 EST ID:aIivaRsS No.156930 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156918
>
Chechnya didn't have any referendum, it tried to secede by using military force. No shit that Russia would use military force in return, with their reasoning being that Chechen terrorists are trying to revolt against the government. Something like what Ukraine is doing to Donbass, which is also trying to secede using military means.

That's exactly what happened though. Crimea had UDI just like Chechnya did in 91, and then AFTER had the referendum to join Russia.
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Martha Crennerhune - Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:44:16 EST ID:8jUZ10Vm No.156931 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156918
chechnya would never be allowed to have a referendum. and military force was absolutely used in crimea. also lol @ you thinking the referendum in crimea was legit.

>Ukrainians were also white. So any "white nationalist tactics" wouldn't work here.
are you actually this dumb? same tactics, different demographic divisions. derp.

>Well that's honestly a blurry line
exactly. interesting people like you or putin will always choose a line that's convenient/politically expedient. mayhe instead we should just honor treaties and border agreements. oh wait, nm, that wouldn't be convenient for you/russia. silly me.

>utility scarcity
>ehhh
>that disproves my point so i'm going to let it slide
of course you will.

>True
>buh buh buh nea toe doe
and the same goes for Ukraine and NATO, as if that were even a realistic near future scenario.

>russia's sovereignty though!!
>but nevermind about their neighbors' sovereignty
unsurprising.
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Fuck Secklesturk - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:21:17 EST ID:Vvj3tJl7 No.156950 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156930

As far as I can see the Chechen conflict's history is something like: Chechnya secedes in 91, Yeltsin tries to get the territory back by force, fails miserably, and Chechnya is independent for a while. A few years later, the independent government and the region are in absolute shambles and terrorists, kidnappers, etc are running all over the place. The Kremlin's envoy, a general, is kidnapped by Chechen terrorists (to be murdered later), 4 British engineers are kidnapped and murdered by Chechen terrorists, and basically kidnapping became the independent nation's primary source of income. This pissed off everyone internationally, especially Russia, and Yeltsin started the Second Chechen War with Putin finishing it. Honestly I think Chechnya is better off being part of Russia, and today they think so as well. For the most part, people don't care about politics, they just want to live normally.

But here's the main difference: Crimea seceded and joined the Russian Federation for protection in response to the revolution in Ukraine. Chechnya seceded because of nationalism and the will to start their own nation. They had sovereignty for a while and blew it.

>>156931

Unless you have proof that Crimea's referendum wasn't real, your statement is basically just words.

>same "white nationalist" tactics, different demographic divisions.

they weren't tactics, they were reasons. You're telling me that just because white nationalists happened to use the same reasoning (protecting our niggas abroad from an unstable political situation), that no one else should ever use that reasoning? What the fuck?

And the utility scarcity thing doesn't completely disprove my point, I was saying that while that's true, it's temporary. They decided that that's a lot better than having Poroshenko as president, which many Ukrainians themselves happen to agree with if you saw his approval ratings. Do you think I'm just some kind of contrarian? I'm trying to learn from this discussion too you know.

>True
>buh buh buh nea toe doe
>and the same goes for Ukraine and NATO, as if that were even a realistic near
>future scenario.

What the fuck are you talking about?

>sovereignty

Crimean sovereignty.
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Wesley Gogglekud - Fri, 24 Mar 2017 15:56:15 EST ID:OBWIAo4y No.156973 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>156918
>Slavs are white
>ever

lol nb
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Barnaby Tootspear - Sat, 25 Mar 2017 17:06:45 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.156995 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156950
>97% "join" vote
>123% voter turnout
>assuming it's legit
okay, you have to be either a shill or a troll. besides, if that "counts," then that means any unilateral secession referendum must be accepted. do you understand how insane that would make the world?

>I NOW DECLARE MY HOME IT'S OWN COUNTRY YIPPEEEEEE!!!!! CRIMEA DID IT SO CAN I!!!!!

and yes, they are tactics. russia drummed up BS/wildly exaggerated claims of ethnic russians being attacked in order to garner domestic support in the matter. this is exactly the same schtick white nationalists are playing with the whole "white genocide" bullshit.

as to crimea being better off, it's not. all indications point crimea being poorer/worse off now. you're even backing off of this yourself (you probably googled it after you made the claim they were now in better condition than before, lol).

>sovereignty
ukrainian sovereignty, chechnyan sovereignty.

but only when it's convenient for you, right? *roll eyes*

NATO is no excuse for russia's violation of ukrainian sovereignty, no. especially since russia promised not to fuck with ukraine's borders.
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Reuben Mepperham - Sun, 26 Mar 2017 20:06:59 EST ID:e6/f888D No.157015 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>156995

>any unilateral secession referendum must be accepted. do you understand how insane that would make the world?

you mean the world isn't already insane? Scotland tried to do it as well but failed. Though I think it wants round 2 on that. Either that or North Ireland or Wales or something in England. It'd be interesting to see your thoughts on that referendum.

>123% voter turnout

well no it was 80% turnout, and anyway the region has a history of referendums for independence, like the one in 1991 before the USSR disintegrated where it wanted to become its own socialist republic again after the Crimean ASSR was abolished in 1945. There is also the 1994 referendum where Crimea wanted more independence from Ukraine and for people in Crimea to have the right to have dual citizenship with Russia and Ukraine. Both referendums passed btw, with the 1994 one being blocked by Ukraine despite having 80% support. The 1991 one passed with 94% being for the idea.

>russia drummed up BS/wildly exaggerated claims of ethnic russians being attacked in order to garner domestic support in the matter.

Meh, basically all countries drum up their media in order to garner support. Remember the Iraq War? I still believe the referendum was real though. There was precedent for it. Your argument for the referendum not being real is basically "the numbers don't look right." So, the people in Crimea voted themselves out. If they didn't see anything wrong with staying with Ukraine they would have stayed.

>all indications point crimea being poorer/worse off now.

I'm not backing off of shit first of all. I agree that they have problems right now since Ukraine cut their power off and sanctions hit Russia while at the same time Russia hasn't had enough time given their resources to hook them up yet. However, I think they'd rather have their own sovereignty and not be subject to Poroshenko, who, I repeat, has an approval rating in the single digits at the moment. Not even Ukrainians want the guy anymore, and I believe Ukraine is also now worse off, moreso than Crimea thanks to their 2014 revolution

>chechnyan sovereignty.

You obviously didn't read my reply on Chechnya. Go read it.

>ukrainian sovereignty

who was talking about ukraine not being sovereign? They had their revolution.
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Edwin Chushmot - Sun, 26 Mar 2017 20:39:14 EST ID:UwEK9WGD No.157016 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157015
UK law specifically allows for a legal independence referendum. edinburgh agreement went through proper legislation, order in council approved, etc. No such provision exist in Ukrainian law, it was unilaterally executed, and it's legitimacy is beyond questionable, considering the presence of russian troops, ridiculous results/turnout, etc.

not. even. close. bruh.

so do you believe any polity should be able to just up and leave whenever it feels like and form its own country? you neglected to answer.

>80% turnout
you mean the 82% figure the ITAR-TASS, a Russian government run news agency, reported after it retracted the initial report that lead to the 123% figure? do you actually believe this?

>ridiculous 97% in favor vote, when polls from previous years showed support at highest around 40%
>123% turnout later pulled back to 82%
>didn't allow observers
>russian military personnel intimidating voters everywhere

i have no idea how you can have faith in the vote.

>Meh
you know what? meh, indeed. it's clear you'll just ignore evidence when it's inconvenient. you've openly done this multiple times now. you're not actually here to have a political conversation. considering the above (with the referendum), it's pretty plain you're a troll.

you don't actually care, so i won't either.
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Reuben Gevingpit - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:34:56 EST ID:6VdM2vdX No.157020 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Geeze, Napoleon. Why would anyone ever care about what happens on a show like Eurovision?
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Fanny Crellyheck - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:01:22 EST ID:lYEV514W No.157026 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157020
Isn't Eurovision like close to the World Cup in popularity over there? But, you know, slightly gayer than the World Cup....
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Isabella Happermeg - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:42:39 EST ID:Aniohlwq No.157031 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>157026
But, for fuck's sake. Why?

Fucking musclebound dickheads aping retarded instruments no one likes after failing (rigged) olympic piss tests? Plastic figure skating rejects twatting around, in the purgatory between eastern block porn and middle eastern beauty pageants?

Even if it does become politicized, who the fuck cares?
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Angus Nandlemid - Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:49:12 EST ID:GEkLOBes No.157032 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>157031
You have made grev myistake my friend. May God hyef mewrcy on yür sole.
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Esther Blebberkit - Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:46:07 EST ID:O+Tn+tk4 No.157040 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>157031

>Implying nobody likes saxophones
>Implying playing a saxophone doesn't make you a golden god in the eyes of the world
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Wesley Breblingspear - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 00:20:37 EST ID:lYEV514W No.157043 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157040
Man, what are you? A Poli Sci prof?
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David Fumblefoot - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:53:51 EST ID:okcxXpDl No.157055 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157031
It's like American Idol but you can root for your country. Not really much less vapid than Olympic bob-sleighing...
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Wesley Breblingspear - Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:00:58 EST ID:lYEV514W No.157058 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157055
Higher death rate in bob sledding. But only by a bit...
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George Fogglecocke - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:01:48 EST ID:68jWqrRV No.157071 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157055
It's basically where half the world gets drunk, enjoys the choreography and lightshow and laughs at the shit music.

I think I only sit through it if I've got company, and would only accept said company if they don't expect me to sit in silence. If you ask someone who's been to a "Eurovision Party" what happened they will probably remember someone getting too drunk to talk in their mother tongue by about halfway through, themed food and maybe some music.
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Charlotte Humbledale - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:59:23 EST ID:lYEV514W No.157073 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157071
Sounds like the Super Bowl if it were planned by gay people.
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Fucking Pockson - Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:12:26 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.157075 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157073
>men in spandex throwing balls at and piling on each other
so it's basically just the super bowl, then.
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Ernest Blillynutch - Sat, 01 Apr 2017 07:06:40 EST ID:68jWqrRV No.157079 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157075
Superbowl is just gay men for gay men. Eurovision has plenty of lesbian involvement and sometimes the female contestants are nice to look at. Also Eurovision was won by the world's best GWAR knock off a few years back eurovision is all about second rate music, no one actually good enters so this is as close to GWAR entering as is possible within the laws of physics, even if the US was a competitor but GWAR would never be allowed on Superbowl. Let alone allowed to win it. Ergo Superbowl is just a pale shadow. RIP Oderus.

Both events are basically an excuse to get blind drunk and eat junk food with people you like.
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Hannah Tillingwill - Sat, 01 Apr 2017 11:02:18 EST ID:ubAhU6c5 No.157081 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>156801
The OSMTH has been recruiting out of NATO for decades and most of the head honchos at the Atlantic Council are involved. As a result, NATO sabre rattles against the Orthodox russians and ukranians. This conflict is an old one, and more than what it looks like.
Pic related, propagandist who's been around, was part of the NATO priori and places south of 'Merica
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Charlotte Mummlefield - Sat, 01 Apr 2017 13:16:51 EST ID:cbhMfSls No.157085 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>157081
Take your meds, Sam.
>>
Alice Dollerspear - Thu, 06 Apr 2017 09:57:20 EST ID:okcxXpDl No.157204 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>157081
No one gives a fuck about orthodox Russians or Ukrainians besides the political ramifications of Putins alliance with the patriarch. FYI The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which had no small part in convincing Hitler to get rid of the Jews) was written in Russia for the Russian pogroms. Russia also has by far the largest and most active population of neo-nazis these days which seems perfectly tolerable to the government.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUxuq-E9yA


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