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Kratom Extract by Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:15:22 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577674 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1493676922928.jpg -(2208391B / 2.11MB, 3984x2241) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 2208391
Alright yall, I've been delving into kitchen chemistry lately and decided to try my hand at making some extract. This is not a guide, just a thread to discuss the production of extracts. I will post a full guide later if enough people care but mostly I want criticism from our chemists and to see if I'm doing anything wrong/anything I can improve.

I'll just be dumping the images one after another in chronological order. Pic attached is the kratom I started with.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:19:07 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577675 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493677147527.jpg -(3138566B / 2.99MB, 3984x2241) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
I soaked the kratom in hydrogen peroxide to oxidize mitragynine into mitragynine pseudoindoxyl. My understanding is the unstable oxygen molecule attaches to the mitragynine, leaving behind water (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:23:26 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577676 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493677406872.jpg -(3244675B / 3.09MB, 3984x2241) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
After leaving it on very low heat for 30 minutes, I let it sit so the reaction could finish. Since h202 is a potent oxidizer when the ph is on the acidic side, I also added very small amounts of lemon juice to help the process after I took it off the heat.

After an hour and a half it looked like pic related. Notice how it doubled in size, rose up like some yeasty dough, almost overflowing the pot it was in. Also the texture went from a goopey sludge similar to really thick brownie batter to a fluffy mousse texture. Also started to note amber spots when looking very close.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:37:55 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577677 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493678275495.jpg -(3429280B / 3.27MB, 3984x2241) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
I forgot to take a picture of the next steps, but this after running the oxidized kratom through isopropyl alcohol and drying it out. I just soaked it in iso on low heat for maybe 3 minutes, then started straining through coffee filters. The solution was the same color and translucency as watered down coffee with an amber hue to it.

After drying in the oven at 250 F, I got pic related. Very crystally amber powder that came up in flakes and crumbled into dust very easily.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:41:21 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577678 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493678481177.jpg -(4326146B / 4.13MB, 4482x3984) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Heres the before and after crushing. First image is just scraped with a razor and left really nice, translucent amber shards. Looks very very very similar to high quality cannabis BHO shatter but more fragile. When you a shine a light on it, it sparkles all over like crushed glass.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:42:43 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577679 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493678563117.jpg -(2488131B / 2.37MB, 3984x2241) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
another image of the final product (first run)
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Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:48:52 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577682 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493678932265.jpg -(1943781B / 1.85MB, 3984x2241) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
and here's the final image. from dark to light:

  1. red riau, ran without h2o2 and only oxidized with lemon juice.
  2. Same batch, different run
  3. Same batch different run
  4. Indo elephant with h2o2 (process described above, my friend burnt it by accident)
  5. Indo elephant with h2o2 (very low heat)
  6. Same as above, except the last run
  7. The last scraping caked to the bottom of the pan. I scraped it last because it was a lot lighter, and looked insane. It was almost white, a very light brown dusty and highly crystally powder.

Chemists, or anybody with any knowledge of this, let me know how I did please! Is there any dangers to using h2o2? Or any dangers to my process at all?

I'm aware that h2o2 combined with ISO can result in acetate peroxide and acetone, this is why I try my absolute best to make sure all the h2o2 has converted to h2o by letting it soak for a long time.
>>
Aciddrop !tbcTsdGo8Q!!vVWR8L52 - Tue, 02 May 2017 03:00:48 EST ID:iv153/qV No.577688 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577682
I know nothing about this but very interested to sayb the least. Where the fuck has bombastus gone? I hope the lil fella didn't fap to death...Or od or someshit.
>>
Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Tue, 02 May 2017 08:53:15 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.577695 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I like what i see. I would have done several pulls on the leaf though using different solvents. First just water and h2o2 then iso then maybe acetone. As far as i know the h2o2 should all be broken down as long as you let sit and applied heat. Also the mitragynine to pseudoindoxyl is a little more complex than just an oxygen atom as its an actual re-arrangement caused by the oxygen but thats not important. As for the safety of going from h2o2 to isopropyl for this step id strain all the liquid off the plant matter first then dry all the plant matter on low heat and then add the iso, this should ensure you arent forming any side reactants. id also take all the final product and throw it through a blender all together so its all an even strength. Aside from those things this looks like it worked pretty well, i'll be interested to hear how it works.

Does that last picture count from top down or from bottom up?
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Tue, 02 May 2017 22:33:01 EST ID:bNO6d4pw No.577715 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577688
Thanks mane, I haven't seen him post but last I remember he wasn't doing bad at all. Probably just sober. I'm sure he's alright though I've taken similar breaks before from /opi/

>>577695
You think water would pull it? I could've sworn I read that it isn't water soluable. Yeah I let it sit for a good 1 1/2 to 2 hours and didn't see any more bubbles forming so I assumed the rest was water soaking. Hopefully so lol I want to start selling the extract as it's pretty profitable with little effort. It also looks way better than any extract I've seen online or ordered so I could get away with 50-70 a gram.

Ahh thanks for the info dude really appreciate that, exactly what I wanted from this thread. I guess that would take a lot longer but would ultimately be worth it. My friend who was also making it didn't give a fuck and just poured iso 10 min after adding h2o2 on his run lol. I tried to warn him but whatever. Anyways, I will try your advice on the next batch and then possibly refine it with an a/b extraction to try and get +90% purity. I just dnot know if that's a good idea because of all the alkaloids. I was thinking of using vinegar and then sodium bicarbonate to precipitate the alkaloids out but I'm not even sure it will work.

Pic is from top down. The lightest is the h2o2 + iso run.

Thanks again man really helps a ton.
>>
Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Wed, 03 May 2017 10:56:48 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.577741 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577715
Im fairly sure water will pull some, think of all the people who just make tea by boiling and straining and still get effects. The point of using different solvents like water then iso then acetone would be that each one is pulling a different fraction of the goodies for the best full-spectrum effect possible. Id be surprised if it didnt pull a much larger fraction of the alkaloids. As far as acid basing after a multi solvent pull I really cant say how all the alkaloids would react. If you want me to guess id say that the result would be a much more narrow fraction of alkaloids but im honestly not even sure what kinds of stable salts these can form. I think theres good odds you would be cutting down on the number of peripheral alkaloids though.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Wed, 03 May 2017 11:56:42 EST ID:F5HmbHQj No.577743 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577741

I've heard of people doing that, and also heard of cold water extraction pulling pretty wide spectrums of alkaloids so maybe. Just from my experience, the effects were never the same in tea if I strained it. Honestly my goal isn't so much a full spectrum extract, just being able to isolate the main alkaloid would be optimal as I dose plain leaf with the extract and receive really 'full spectrum' effects. It's more of a personal achievement thing to be honest, if I got a really pure powder of mitragynine salts I'd be ecstatic. I've never successfully extracted any drugs before yet alone do anything that looks as appealing as these runs.

Next up is refining poppy seeds down to smokeable opium. I just find all of it fun as hell especially that I have my own place.
>>
Jarvis Suttinghork - Wed, 03 May 2017 13:24:42 EST ID:L41fHpRp No.577748 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I so wanna try this! Would love to see a guide
>>
Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Wed, 03 May 2017 13:43:11 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.577749 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577743
word i can dig that. Then what you really are wanting is to purify down to just mitragynine, 7-hydroxy-mit, and pseudoindoxyl-mit plus some percentage other. Its gonna be tough to separate everything and im unsure its even possible with out some more advanced glassware and techniques. What id guess could be possible is a relatively pure extract containing mostly just a full range of alkaloids and very little plant fats and other shit. Id hazard a bet youll need something like ether, trichloro or dichloromethane, toulene, benzene maybe even xylene would do the trick.. or something else along those lines in order to really strip out the plant waxes, fats, and sugars. The biggest issue i think is im not sure if solubility info exists for mitragynine or if there is info on the stable salts of it. See if it can form stable elemental salts like a sodium or potassium salt you could potentially salt it out during the a/b purification or you could accidentally wash out the wrong phase if you cant tell which solvent it fell into. hmmm im just spit balling here as im not sure how best to approach something like this but one idea may be to try something like doing a co2 extraction (like if you were making co2 oil) on some purified resin extract. However without a better understanding of the solubility of everything involved i cant accurately say if the alkaloids would be in the material left behind or in the output, id guess the output since i tend to agree with you that most of the alkaloids seem very poorly soluble in water.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Wed, 03 May 2017 17:18:02 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577750 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577748
awesome man I'll definitely post a thorough guide on my next run for you guys


>>577749
Oh I'm sure with my limit with supplies it wont be anything crazy but if I could get it isolated in a safe way, I'd be so happy lol. I was thinking of using ether but I really think I should invest in some ventilation system (posssibly make my own fume hood as I want a vent for cooking anyways) and some gas masks. Maybe put a work order for a bathroom vent and try to tap into that from the kitchen.

That's exactly my problem, it seems like a crap shoot. The articles on mitragynine extracts are very limited to clandestine situations like mine. So basically we are the pioneers of kratom extract in this age loool. What you said about salts.. if I were to do a simple a/b extraction would it be a freebase? Would I need something like hydrochloric acid or sodium hydroxide for it to be a salt? Also, after the initial extract with h2o2 + iso, would it be more preferable to precipitate out the alkaloids by neutralizing the acid or would it be more similar to the initial process (iso + h2o2) where it is suspended in the final solution and just requires evaporating out the solvent? I know you're not keen on the subject but you're probably a lot more experienced in this than I am. I haven't done anything besides chemistry experiments in hs and college and iso hash/CWE lol.

Yeah I believe you're correct, I'm sure it has some solubility at certain temps in water but for the most part (from my experience) it tends to go into the output solution (but I've never tried neutralizing it and precipitating out the alkaloids) as theres never anything left in the filters but stray kratom after double filtering.

Once again I apologize for my ignorance on chemistry, I haven't gotten any education in the field since high school and have just gotten an interest recently.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Wed, 03 May 2017 17:18:02 EST ID:zK3HtT5r No.577751 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577748
awesome man I'll definitely post a thorough guide on my next run for you guys


>>577749
Oh I'm sure with my limit with supplies it wont be anything crazy but if I could get it isolated in a safe way, I'd be so happy lol. I was thinking of using ether but I really think I should invest in some ventilation system (posssibly make my own fume hood as I want a vent for cooking anyways) and some gas masks. Maybe put a work order for a bathroom vent and try to tap into that from the kitchen.

That's exactly my problem, it seems like a crap shoot. The articles on mitragynine extracts are very limited to clandestine situations like mine. So basically we are the pioneers of kratom extract in this age loool. What you said about salts.. if I were to do a simple a/b extraction would it be a freebase? Would I need something like hydrochloric acid or sodium hydroxide for it to be a salt? Also, after the initial extract with h2o2 + iso, would it be more preferable to precipitate out the alkaloids by neutralizing the acid or would it be more similar to the initial process (iso + h2o2) where it is suspended in the final solution and just requires evaporating out the solvent? I know you're not keen on the subject but you're probably a lot more experienced in this than I am. I haven't done anything besides chemistry experiments in hs and college and iso hash/CWE lol.

Yeah I believe you're correct, I'm sure it has some solubility at certain temps in water but for the most part (from my experience) it tends to go into the output solution (but I've never tried neutralizing it and precipitating out the alkaloids) as theres never anything left in the filters but stray kratom after double filtering.

Once again I apologize for my ignorance on chemistry, I haven't gotten any education in the field since high school and have just gotten an interest recently.
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Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Fri, 05 May 2017 03:38:59 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.577794 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1493969939638.jpg -(3116456B / 2.97MB, 3840x2160) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>577750

So lets see you crammed a lot of questions into this one which is fine but bear with me while i answer. Soo ether, i love ether however its not a super practical solvent with out a fume hood or real good ventilation and its gotten fairly hard to get. Id strongly encourage you to look into using dichloromethane instead as its readily available in high purity and dirt cheap as "plastic weld" for model building. With DCM (aka methylene chloride) you shouldnt need any fancy vents as long as you have open windows and a fan, also it wont leave an odor behind for a million years like ether can.

See the whole thing about the salts IMO is the biggest problem because i dont know if the answers are even available anywhere, maybe for mitragynine. ill see if i can dig something up i saw a synthesis for it and that will hopefully shed some light based on what salt the end product of that is. Ill look around but if i cant find anything i got no real helpful information here other than my thoughts and opinions. Id be surprised if they exist as a freebase in their natural forms within the plant but its possible i doubt theyd be found naturally as organo-metal salts so the other possibility is an acid salt but idk what and usually these are water soluble. The fact that we both agree its poorly water soluble suggests to me something unusual going on. Im unsure of what state its stored in the leaves of the plant so idk if it would be a freebase itd depend on how you did the acid/base. I also cant say if youd need NaOH or an acid to form a salt, id personally aim to make freebase product. The only time ive seen any pure mitragynine powder was when i bought a little pure powder mitragynine, 7-acetoxy-mitragynine and pseudoindoxyl-mitragynine which all came as freebase. Not knowing what state theyre in makes it tough to further purify because i cant really suggest how to proceed with like an a/b to get freebase and not knowing if they can form organo-metal salts or ammonia salts im not sure if itd be better to basify with ammonium hydroxide or NaOH/KOH. After the initial wash with h2o2/iso my next step would be to wash what you have before trying to precipitate anything. Again solubility is an issue here because im not sure whether what is dissolved into the solvent solution will be the goodies or if it will be the general leftovers like chlorophyll. Id rather for this step you use something that only dissolves the leftover shit but idk if thats even possible if theyre both soluble in the same stuff. If thats the case this is more complicated because you have to flip the goodies from the current salt state to the opposite be it salt to base or base to salt in order to separate it from the remaining plant gunk. You may want to do a little experimenting yourself to determine what solvents dissolve what fraction of your extract. That would tell me a ton of information if you just take a bunch of equal weighed lumps and dissolve them all into small measured amounts of a solvent then filtering that and weighing whats left behind in the filter and then evaping the solvents and weighing what each of them dissolved and pulled through the filter.

This is a case where its not so much ignorance as lack of easily available chemical info, im at a loss here too tbh. Plus everybody starts somewhere and id rather have people wanting to know more and actually trying than just say whoa thats way too complicated. Idk why you think im not keen on the subject, this certainly isnt my strong suite but i love this and i enjoy kratom occasionally. The experimenting is one of my favorite aspects and im decently good at the actual work of it. I also really enjoy this side of it though, the research side and im quite a bit better at the research and theory than i am at applied even though applied is more fun. Ill see what kind of reading i can pull up about all this for you this but idk how much ill find. Im happy to help however i can this is a cool project and i completely relate to the motivation of just wanting to be to have accomplished it, so if you want my thoughts on anything im around.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 08 May 2017 19:37:24 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578003 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577794
I forgot about the odor ether leaves lol jesus. That would be horrible at my apt. I'll look into DCM and see if I can dig anything up on it and kratom.

Now I understand that a bit better, we probably wont know much about it for a while until people start doing studies on it more often. I guess my goal should be going for purity first. Exactly, what I can do is do two experiments with the a/b extraction (I still don't fully understand how it works too so I want to learn more about it) and see which batch contains what. I think it would be pretty obvious but I'm sacrificing some product but whatever. But like you said, if I have to convert any of it, then thats even more experimenting with different catalysts (?) to see if any of them pull out the alkaloids. Is there any specific chems I should use that you think could work?

Also for getting high purity, is it necessary to run with the DCM like you said? I was thinking after doing the h2o2 > iso I could run it with acetone (I'd have to order it online) then try the a/b. I believe the alkaloids go into the acid as people have literally used lemon juice and water to make crude extract. I have a suspicion that mitragynine psuedoinoxyl might be water soluble at higher temps.. ever since I've been taking it in water recently I've noticed it will completely dissolve into it unlike kratom which suspends. But the original extract I had made the first few times (without the h2o2) would just float but I also didn't try it at higher temps so I can't be 100% on that. I'll do what you said with the different solvents and report back. I'll try it with just water too. I'm guessing to be accurate, I'd have to weigh the dry filter, then after filtering the solution let it dry out, then weigh it? I might need to get a mg scale if thats the case. So as far as solvents, I'm going to try: alcohol, DCM, acetone, water.

I had an idea but I don't know if its worth anything, what if start running the kratom with very cold iso, run it through filter, then stick the solution into the freezer for 20-30 minutes and then refilter. I could experiment with all different solvents too and see if it'd be a way to pull out the fats and other shit as they probably wont be as soluble at low temps.

Unfortunately I'll just have to continue making similar threads in order to get anywhere with this and hopefully it helps other people too. Sorry if I mislead you on that, wording was pretty bad tbh. I didn't mean keen more that its something you aren't an expert in. I appreciate it man, if I find anything I'll make sure to post it up here too. Hopefully we get to the bottom of this as I plan to start selling it at absurd prices (compared to what most extract costs now).
>>
Bombastus !uYErosQbLM!!Mybq1UbK - Mon, 08 May 2017 21:23:59 EST ID:BFPmM6qg No.578017 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578003
Ether stains with a smell because of butylatedhydroxytoluene ((BHT) NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH BTH) that has a boiling point of 300C. It's used to stabilize the ether to not form peroxides. To get rid of this smell, run ether through a distillation and use immediately. The shelf life of unstable ether is to remain under 48 hours. And. Don't distill ether.
Do ether extractions outside away from people and on high ground. It tends to hug the floor but is a very good solvent.

Don't use DCM if you don't have to. Hexanes is slightly better and if you can find pentane, that'd be even better. DCM has highly experimental polarity issues associated with it as a solvent due to the two chlorines.

When it comes to using the solvents for purification, you can go with the weed extraction techniques where you can do a first extraction with ethanol, evaporate off ethanol, and finally extract with water / hexanes. It's easier with kratom simply because you are isolating for an alkaloid. This means you can recrystallize over ethanol one specific molecule in excess unlike with cannabinoids.

Consider investing in some silica gel.

Also TL;DR some questions via yellowtext PLS.
>>
Sophie Pillerhut - Mon, 08 May 2017 21:48:33 EST ID:erLRgIPC No.578019 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578017
Bombayb or others blessed w equipment, could u buy some of the better reviewed kratom extract and cross examine the yadda yada for traces of solvents to see what they probably used?
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Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 08 May 2017 22:08:25 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578021 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578019
I was planning on doing that with phytos products and my batches. Unrelated, but I have their isol-8 and my extract shits on theirs as far as potency and effects go. It looks a lot nicer as well but mine is super fucking bitter. I will post a thread when I get everything tested though.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Mon, 08 May 2017 22:09:44 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578022 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578017

On mobile once I hop on I will update with some questions
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Bombastus !uYErosQbLM!!Mybq1UbK - Mon, 08 May 2017 22:35:43 EST ID:BFPmM6qg No.578027 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578019
I could. But I don't really want to pay some lab to use their HPLC / GC / NMR for $60 / hour. I also don't have the time or the patience to isolate and measure out mitragynine.

That sounded rude but I gotta pay for my house and food and drugs and only have 24 hours in the day.
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Matilda Ginnerhid - Mon, 08 May 2017 23:49:21 EST ID:cWx/bAvE No.578042 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494301761443.jpg -(60863B / 59.44KB, 750x711) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>578027
ofc, always imagine you with your own personal mad scientist lab at your disposal 24/7
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Hunter S. Nodson - Tue, 16 May 2017 14:38:27 EST ID:F5HmbHQj No.578478 Ignore Report Quick Reply
shameless self-bump to keep this alive.

found a really interesting pdf on kratom and its alkaloids, very useful: https://www.psychoactif.org/forum/uploads/documents/1402393867.pdf
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Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Wed, 17 May 2017 20:21:18 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.578531 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578003
Actually bombastus has a good point on the dcm. With that in mind id switch the dcm for trying hexane like he said and also xylene.

Honestly salting may be a pain in the ass. If you can id leave them as freebase products. That said it probably wouldnt be to hard to find something it forms a salt with just time consuming.

That freezer tek is a good idea, thats something i already do myself for certain things and didnt think to apply here. For sure try that.

>>578017
>When it comes to using the solvents for purification, you can go with the weed extraction techniques where you can do a first extraction with ethanol, evaporate off ethanol, and finally extract with water / hexanes. It's easier with kratom simply because you are isolating for an alkaloid. This means you can recrystallize over ethanol one specific molecule in excess unlike with cannabinoids.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I also had another similar idea i'll share since this came up now. I think this is an ideal candidate for a super critical CO2 extraction. Its an expensive investment but it as long as it works it would eliminate any difficult chemistry and minimize the guess work.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Wed, 17 May 2017 21:16:54 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578534 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578531
Definitely, I'm still doing this in my apartment and wouldn't want my neighbors to know or blow my place up lol. Yeah I'll just focus on purity like you guys said and then worry about converting to a salt later on.

Awesome I actually tried it out last weekend by freezing the iso and oxidized kratom but I didn't notice any difference. BUT, I did let the h2o2 fully oxidize and added some lemon juice to speed it up and it made a huuuuge difference. It was about 2.5x -3x as strong as our last batch. 1 gram felt like too much for both me and my friend. Sourcing hexane is kind of difficult too, all of it is from China and I don't want to cheap out.

If I can't source it, I'll try the freezer tek with water and filter that, then try to do a a/b extract with vinegar and sodium bicarbonate.

For the co2, that might be a good investment once we build up some more capital. But $5-6k is a little steep at the moment. Check out that article I posted though, theres some golden nuggets of info in there that I had no idea about. This weekend I will have an awesome update for you guys on my progress with this though.

BOMBASTUS MY NIGGAand Q if you can also help out
>Do you think it's possible to do a decent a/b with vinegar + baking soda? Or possibly another combo thats easy to obtain?
>Is there a way to test for excess h2o2? Besides a blood sacrifice?
>Would parrafin wax be a good idea to eliminate oils and fats? I was thinking to add the wax in after the h2o2 > iso run while mixed in hot water, then refrigerate until the wax hardens and run it with hexane/iso and wash out the alkaloids. I think I'm overcomplicating that though. This question I'm the most curious about.

And for anyone who would like to help, we can't think of a name for the company. It's seriously stumping us. I'd prefer it to be related to kratom in some way whether its a strain or alkaloid. Any ideas would be highly appreciated!
>>
Bombastus !uYErosQbLM!!Mybq1UbK - Wed, 17 May 2017 21:49:36 EST ID:uYkTZ33k No.578536 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Do you think it's possible to do a decent a/b with vinegar + baking soda? Or possibly another combo thats easy to obtain?
Vinegar is a weak acid and makes a buffer. Don't use weak acids or weak bases.
>Is there a way to test for excess h2o2? Besides a blood sacrifice?
Boil it for 5 minutes and all the H2O2 gets converted to H2O and Oxygen. Or eat a small amount of cyanide to counteract the H2O2.
>Would parrafin wax be a good idea to eliminate oils and fats? I was thinking to add the wax in after the h2o2 > iso run while mixed in hot water, then refrigerate until the wax hardens and run it with hexane/iso and wash out the alkaloids. I think I'm overcomplicating that though. This question I'm the most curious about.
Worth a shot. I've never once done the parrafin wax idea when working with opiates. Mainly because it's just too annoying if I have hexanes and an aqueous solution so I'd rather just keep it all wet.
>>
Hunter S. Nodson - Wed, 17 May 2017 23:14:23 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578545 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578536
Thanks my dude, any suggestion for an alternative to that acid and base?

Awesome that's what I was thinking, and for the wax I guess I'll try it out and see.
>>
James Blatherlock - Wed, 17 May 2017 23:25:54 EST ID:T7flwXWl No.578547 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578545
Food grade lime (pickling lime) and hydrochloric acid (usually sold as muriatic acid in hardwares.
>>
WIAKR+Pa !l1uVST4rME!!HOWLHoRl - Thu, 18 May 2017 06:45:48 EST ID:aWZljk6O No.578561 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578547
This would work, but a lot of the pickling lime (basically all of it, I think) is Ca(OH)2, which makes the chemistry a bit more complicated, and you might have some solubility issues with that calcium ion. I know calcium morphenate exists, and it precipitates out of solution pretty easily, so some of the alkaloids with which you're working might do the same. It's not necessarily likely, but there's still a chance of it, so you ought to take that into account.

Frankly, I'd just buy relatively pure NaOH and HCl. You can get both of these in near-food-grade off of Amazon. I have experience with this and have had absolutely zero issues. However, it's also pretty easy to buy the chemicals at a hardware store near you and then just purify them. Doing this isn't nearly as easy, but it's definitely still workable (and it's good practice to ensure you can do chemistry properly, but I have faith in you, Nodson! ). Check out sciencemadness.org for all of your chemistry needs, but don't mention ANYTHING even remotely drug-related, or else they'll tear you a new one lol. Bombastus, are you familiar with that place? Seems like it'd be right up your alley! If not, definitely check it out, then, please. You, too, Q!
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Hunter S. Nodson - Thu, 18 May 2017 10:10:44 EST ID:a1WEtajM No.578569 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578561
appreciate that a ton I will definitely look into that, I'm just having a hard time sourcing all of this besides through China which I'd want to avoid, quality control there is absolutely garbage. I'll try and find lye thats suitable for food grade that isn't Ca(OH)2. Amazon seems to only source from China unfortunately, and I want to start selling this stuff so any contaminants is a huge no for me. I was already paranoid about using the 3% h2o2 and 91% ISO from CVS lol.

I'll check out that site, definitely will help.

Also in response the BWN, I read your reply I just don't want to keep posting about it either. Starting to feel pretty hypocritical, I think anything to do with that issue should stick to /420/.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Thu, 18 May 2017 22:05:46 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578629 Ignore Report Quick Reply
UPDATE:

So, I decided to work with what I have and try to further purify the extract. After doing a H2O2 > ISO run, I noticed the fats were separating at higher heat and wanted to try and get them out. They actually separated at the end and made my run look kind of shitty. I scraped up all the darker parts where the separated fats and shit were just so I can test it.

I took the scraped powder and ran it in very cold ISO quickly, which left behind a fair amount of alkaloids I'm assuming. I saved both the washed ISO and the filter just in case. I then scraped the filter and ran it with hot water, filtered again, and evaporated what was left. Once evaporated it left a lighter colored powder with a smaller yield and looked way better than what went in. Just to be safe, I took the washed ISO and evaporated that off as well and what was left behind was this nasty gunky resin. It looked very waxy and was sticky to the touch, which I'm assuming is all the shit we don't want. It didn't taste like it had any alkaloids as well so I'm assuming its fairly inactive. I took the gunk and ran a few tests, seeing if it would dissolve in warm water and hot water, which it did neither of.

Conclusion:
It seems that mitragynine psuedoindoxyl is soluable in hot water while the fats, waxes, and other shit are only soluble in isopropyl alcohol. Now I know I can take away that one step and wash my final product with hot water instead of another iso run > hot water run. Definitely some big progress!

One thing I find odd though, is that mitragynine and 7-OHM are not water soluble but apparently mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is freely soluble in water. I wonder if the oxidation process from mitragynine > 7-OHM > mitragynine psuedoindoxyl has anything to do with it? I'll post pictures tomorrow, I gotta sleep.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Thu, 18 May 2017 22:09:31 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578630 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578629
I was also thinking, I wonder if the oxidation process nullifies the need to do an ISO run altogether? Since its freely soluble in water, I can just run it with hot water after the H2O2 and filter that and theoretically get some very nice product. Which later on can be purified with an a/b extraction once I source the chems for it. nb
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Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Fri, 19 May 2017 02:34:18 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.578643 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I have a long reply for a bunch of your most recent posts but wont be able to post for a day or so.
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Q !57aon8jsJ2 - Fri, 19 May 2017 02:36:23 EST ID:ztWD2hgP No.578644 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>577674
Add me on steam and i can help you way more in terms of what chems to use and how to get them with out doing anything sketchy.
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Hunter S. Nodson - Fri, 19 May 2017 10:52:30 EST ID:a1WEtajM No.578689 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578644
check my reply to your post on acetylated bupe, and definitely. I have close neighbors so a lot of this has to be done late at night. I'm thinking of building a crude fume hood with a range hood + custom enclosure + dryer ducts through a window to minimize my exposure to all these fumes.
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Aciddrop !tbcTsdGo8Q!!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 19 May 2017 23:21:18 EST ID:6fORcLTi No.578726 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578629
Sooooooo can I get a TLDR on your extract process? Lol
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Hunter S. Nodson - Sat, 20 May 2017 00:27:19 EST ID:SrJE9oy1 No.578727 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>578726
>>578726
Haha sure I'll post a full guide in the upcoming week though but basically:

>freeze kratom overnight
>soak in H2O2 (3% is the safest) on medium heat and make sure its the consistency of a smoothie, thinner than batter
>add a teaspoon or two citric acid or lemon/lime juice to increase the oxidation of H2O2
>agitate the kratom every 45-60 seconds or so
>add more H2O2 as it dries and keep the consistency for about 30 minutes
>now keep it on the stove until it is close to dry and continue to agitate.
>freeze kratom again (optional but you wont pull as many fats/oils/waxes/chlorophyll etc out)
>now, this part is really important. If you even have a hint that you rushed the first steps with the H2O2, use isopropyl alcohol
>if you feel like you didn't, use filtered water.
>if using iso, mix a SMALL amount of iso into enough kratom that will fit in a coffee filter and strain it as quickly as possible by lightly squeezing the filter
>repeat until all of it is ran, remember the goal is to not let it soak in the ISO else you will get unwanted shit in it
>if using water, soaking wont effect it much so I would mix all of it in water and filter away.
>preheat your oven: if using iso then 200-225, if using water then 250-275.
>you can use a lower temp to get a lighter extract but it will take a few hours, up to you
>USE AS LITTLE WATER AS POSSIBLE! If its thick like peanut butter, thats good, you can always rerun the kratom
>filter
>keep the kratom in the coffee filter for 2nd, 3rd, 4th runs etc
>dump the solution into a large flat pyrex
>put in oven until there is no visible liquid
>once there is no liquid, turn the oven down to around 150-175 and let it sit for another 5-10 minutes.
>let cool for about 30 minutes
>scrape away

a few warnings though:
>do NOT use acetone, it reacts with H2O2 to form acetone peroxide, highly explosive
>do NOT use food grade 35% H2O2 unless you know what you're doing, if too much it can concentrate down and BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) especially with organic shit like kratom
>always keep good ventilation and have a running nearby when using iso
>never mix in iso if you believe there to be leftover H2O2

that being said its seriously not dangerous, just weird little things I found out along the way. take proper precaution and you're good to go

enjoy mane~


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