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Houston, we have an el problemo... by Martha Wankinman - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:15:02 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396547 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1504152902145.jpg -(75465B / 73.70KB, 540x359) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 75465
After Katrina hit, a lot of illegal immigrants came into the city to rebuild it. The fact is, the construction industry heavily relies on illegal labor.

Well, we are having a Mega-Katrina in the Houston area. Fuck ton of damage to homes and businesses. All of which will need to be fixed ASAP.

This kind of leads to an awkward problem...

We have a POTUS who hates illegals. Texas has also passed a law making sanctuary cities illegal and vowed to help Trump get rid of illegals.

Whom, they now need in massive numbers.

Or face a major labor shortage.

Yeah.... El Problemo Super Sabado Gigante!

Anywho, what do you think will happen when this labor need hits the political realities on the ground?
>>
Fanny Subbersane - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:40:47 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396548 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396547
My prediction is that they become hypocrites and become best friends with Pedro and gang until they are no longer useful.
>>
Esther Finkindack - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:52:02 EST ID:WQQ+NOb5 No.396549 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396548
The thing is, most of the illegal immigrants already fled the area. He's gonna have to promise amnesty to anyone willing to work to rebuild. He'll probably spin it like he's making a deal with Mexico or something.
>>
Fanny Subbersane - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:58:38 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396552 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396549
I'd love to see this, even if the hypocrisy is lost of them, and it will be. He'd definitely spin it and his supporters will be none the wiser. Oh well, got to look on the bright side. Even if they accept them for selfish reasons, it still a point on our side.
>>
Esther Finkindack - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 07:28:15 EST ID:WQQ+NOb5 No.396560 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396552
Eh... I don't care about points until November. The right is objectively wrong, but that doesn't matter if voters simply don't give a shit.
>>
Fanny Subbersane - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 11:53:00 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396564 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396560
True enough. Just trying to see a silver lining. Getting the right to change their views on immigration, for at least a short time, would make it easier to protect families from being separated.
>>
Martha Wankinman - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 12:41:23 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396568 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Shit...imagine this...

>Trump allows illegals to rebuild Houston.
>As they try to leave he confiscates all their money and imprisons them with massive bail fees.
>"Look, they are paying for the wall."
>>
Fanny Subbersane - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 12:51:03 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396570 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396568
Definitely something Trump is capable of doing. He has a history of not paying his workers.
>>
Phyllis Dallernedge - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 12:53:56 EST ID:iYYYad4Q No.396571 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396560
Why is it objectively wrong to not want illegals in the country?
>>
Fanny Subbersane - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 13:11:52 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396572 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396571
If we lived in an alternative universe in which Europeans lived in what's now Mexico, and millions of French, Italians, Swedish, German, were entering the country, do you feel that the majority of those currently against illegal immigration would be so adamant against it?

What is the most sensible option for kicking out illegal immigrants without it having a disastrous effect on our economy, society, and without it coldly separating families? Not only is it not possible, and even it were would militarize our streets, but it's also unethical. What is this grand principal that says illegal immigration is inherently a bad thing?

The right used studies to analyze the total effect of illegal immigrants and only cheery picked what supported their views why ignoring all the positive effects the study demonstrated.
>>
Phyllis Seckledale - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 14:38:09 EST ID:d2K5URtx No.396576 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396571
don't worry, Illegals is one of the many things the right is objectively wrong about.

we're talking about a situation where we have more jobs than people and the right would rather let huston rot and people go homeless and lose out on the economic boon that illegals will bring.
>>
Doris Drankinshit - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 15:05:23 EST ID:xQbV1JEs No.396578 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396571
Because no one fucking punishes the rich fucks and corporations that keep hiring illegals?
>>
Martha Wankinman - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 16:10:00 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396589 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396578
Bingo!

The fact is, it would be more EFFECTIVE to go for the corps that hire illegals. One company could hire thousands. You can stop that by arresting a handful of people at the top. Or you can go the expensive route with Deportation Action Super SWAT teams that have to individually hunt down everyone that company hired.

Funny how that works.
>>
Simon Mupperhug - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 16:37:04 EST ID:6POwg5Ik No.396593 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396589
Illegals are really not that the symptom of the problem but are an issue. Most Americans work very lazy and illegals tend do a better job because they know they are risk of being found out and sent to jail/deported, so their attitude towards working is much more important than an actual citizen.

>EFFECTIVE to go for the corps that hire illegals

No, that is not the way to go really. They would just find a work around this and the reality is that citizens should work just as hard as the illegal and the problem will go away, hiring a citizen is much more expensive because of low expectation and production for the company and tend to be very sloppy at their work, and that is why they tend to hire illegals.

A guy made a point here in another thread about if he had a company he would rather hire illegals because they tend to have better work ethics then their counter parts and he isnt wrong because Americans are sloppy and lazy workers.
>>
Reuben Worthingspear - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 16:45:46 EST ID:LH6gXCFK No.396594 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396593
The problem isn't that Americans won't do those jobs, it's that they have to be paid minimum wage. If you're willing to work under the table for what the illegals get paid they'll put you to work picking fruit just like the spics.
>>
Simon Mupperhug - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 17:10:03 EST ID:6POwg5Ik No.396596 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396594
Some true to that, but the fact remains that Americans cant pick fruit for shit or lay brick faster than Pablo, and they meet far higher expectations than a citizen. The core problem is American work ethics.
>>
Basil Drocklehet - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 17:28:55 EST ID:JS2STE3y No.396598 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396596
They still can't speak english, they also don't pay taxes and they always play they're shitty ranchero music any chance they get. They also don't pay for healthcare

Illegals are good for some jobs, and I'm sympathetic to expanding migrant worker programs to allow for more of them to work the shitty menial jobs that are below us real people, but there have to be rules for who can come in and who can't.

Sure americans are lazy, republicans are hypocrites, so on and so forth. What is your plan for solving this issue? Open borders? Free college for illegals?
>>
Simon Mupperhug - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 17:46:18 EST ID:6POwg5Ik No.396601 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396598
>Sure americans are lazy, republicans are hypocrites, so on and so forth. What is your plan for solving this issue? Open borders? Free college for illegals?

You already proven my point. Fix the work ethics, that will solve all kinds of problems.

> they're shitty ranchero music any chance they get.

Music is subjective. You probably like shitty music.

>They still can't speak english, they also don't pay taxes

Some can, but not all, and some do try to integrate into the system. Besides Mexicans are not the mast majority of migrants to come to the U.S, it's actually Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador, and Mexico is caught in the line of fire and they tend to deport a shit load back to their respective countries.
>>
Phyllis Seckledale - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 17:50:43 EST ID:d2K5URtx No.396602 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396598
>they also don't pay taxes
bullshit. even if illegals are paid under the table (and not all are), they pay more than their fair of taxes. you understand more things are taxed than wages, right? you would know this if your mom didn't buy your clothes for you.
>>
Basil Grimforth - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 20:20:26 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396612 Ignore Report Quick Reply
illegals pay into taxes. Excise tax and Sales Tax. I'm sure there is more. The children of illegals aka Americans, go on becoming hard working, tax giving citizens. In many cases, have a better work ethic than generational Americans.

>Shitty music

Ha! I knew it! It's like art imitating life. Your major gripe is that you aren't a fan of their culture. By extension, I wouldn't be surprised if you disliked them for being brown. They are good people and assimilate well. That's all you should give a damn about. Hating a group of people for something as benign as music is pathetic.

What's your plan for solving the "issue"? Putting money into deportation swat teams? Have neighbors go against neighbors? Make it so that Hispanic communities don't work with police out of fear of being removed? Turn school systems that their children go to into spies? Build a wall that wouldn't work and lose billions in the process? Separate families because their taste in music isn't the same as yours?
>>
Basil Grimforth - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 20:30:44 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396613 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396612
>They also don't pay for healthcare

Same for every first world nation. A tourist going to the UK will be treated by the NHS free of charge in the event of needing to go to the hospital.

Your anger should be centered around insurance companies and the politicians that prevent us from adapting single-payer.
>>
Archie Bigglelock - Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:29:39 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396618 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396613
>A tourist going to the UK will be treated by the NHS free of charge in the event of needing to go to the hospital.

Been there, done that. Excellent care. And surprise! No death panels!
>>
Betsy Cezzletuck - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 09:59:26 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396640 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>the construction industry heavily relies on illegal labor.
>Whom, they now need in massive numbers.
>>
Isabella Sunnertig - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 10:44:34 EST ID:pK6OXYXQ No.396643 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1504277074172.png -(46963B / 45.86KB, 754x481) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>396640
>a significant portion of laborers in the construction industry are illegal immigrants?
>wow, what a crazy notion haha!
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/03/26/chapter-2-industries-of-unauthorized-immigrant-workers/
https://www.markupandprofit.com/blog/undocumented-illegal-workers-construction

lol, cmon dude.
>>
Archie Bigglelock - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 12:59:44 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396645 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396640
See above.

I also have a feeling that regional variations can make that number higher or lower. And after Katrina...well, this happened...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5446965
>>
Nigel Nicklewater - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 17:32:30 EST ID:kMHRWa3R No.396678 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396549

You don't understand how this works do you?

They're gonna look the other way as long as it's necessary.

American labor is too expensive and the politicians are completely aware of this.
>>
Emma Bunridge - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 19:23:50 EST ID:EY6mIEOj No.396682 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The question is, are they sending their best?
>>
Archie Bigglelock - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 19:52:00 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396688 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396678
The problem is will the workers show?

There was already talk of various "dragnets" that were rumored to be setup by ICE to snag people fleeing Harvey. These appeared to all be rumors, but when you are living on the edge like that, caution is a big part of your life. Now that Texas is openly hostile to illegals as is Trump, will they come? Especially in large enough numbers.

This is big. As in, projects in Minnesota and other states may now have trouble finding workers and supplies, because everything is gonna flow into Texas and the rebuilding. Crazy, but that is the reality of things. This could quash building booms in other areas. Or, illegals may flock to those states and avoid Texas because of that "nab all illegals," bill they signed.
>>
Cornelius Drubblehood - Fri, 01 Sep 2017 19:56:07 EST ID:JWTOaxpN No.396689 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396688
Pretty much this.

If they hire locals, half the shit would probably get done and the whole thing would probably one big waste of money. I can see this happening a year two years later.
>>
Betsy Murdwater - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 11:01:16 EST ID:NEFFIYTz No.396721 Ignore Report Quick Reply
They'll probably create contract bids for out of state agencies. Because that makes sense, and that's what will happen.

What the fuck does construction have to do with illegals?
>>
Betsy Pushwuck - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 12:05:02 EST ID:B9sfGnG/ No.396723 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396721
>What the fuck does construction have to do with illegals?
What rock do you live under? Seriously. I want to get into the mind of someone with their head as far up their ass as you. Do you have to go out of your way to be this stupid?
>>
Thomas Geckleman - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 12:38:00 EST ID:nppI2w1T No.396724 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396721
Construction, especially debris or tree removal employ a shitton of illegals as it doesn't have the license requirements other types of construction use.

For public roads yes, but for the people they'll almost certainly leave it to the free market.
Which means said out-of-state agencies can prey upon and gouge freely, charging thousands to remove a couple fallen trees, that are just dumped illegally on public land.
>>
Isabella Ginderbirk - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 12:51:48 EST ID:LRcBRT+U No.396726 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396721
>>396640
Since when did the idea that "a lot of illegals work in construction" become a controversial statement? That has just been a known thing for as long as I can remember.

Like, have you guys never been to a Home Depot before? Have you never gone outside? Do you all just happen to live in Maine or something?
>>
Eugene Nenderhood - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 14:36:48 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396727 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396726
I live in MA and the home depot in my small city has illegal workers looking for a job all the time. Just the reality of the situation.
>>
Albert Droffingset - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 15:12:37 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396728 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396721

People want to save money and hide their money so they go with illegals for labor. This is a fact at the moment. Have you been keeping up with the illegal immigration debate at all? Their would tremendous effects on our economy if corporations suddenly had to rely on citizen labor. In a serious way, our economy is interconnected to illegal labor.

The same can be said if we suddenly didn't allow any Chinese products to be sold in the USA. The average citizen would be seriously affected as most things would cost many times more.

I don't think you realize how much our economy relies on cheap labor/products.
>>
Eugene Nenderhood - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 16:16:23 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396729 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396728
And keep in mind the labor shortages we WILL see, and the supply issues we WILL see. After Katrina, a lot of places found it hard to get laborers because they all were down in NOLA. Same for supplies. All the wood, dry wall, and concrete were flowing down there. Houston is looking to dwarf Katrina for sheer damage. While the death toll is thankfully low (although it could use Ted Cruz in that stat...shit stain that he is...) the property damage make Katrina look like a mere blip.

Oh, and Trump just promised that "Texans can rebuild in 6 months."

LOL!
>>
Jenny Binningchedge - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 17:53:21 EST ID:AY1VHICZ No.396734 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396729
>In 6 months

That's overly ambitious. Im willing to bet 6 years.
>>
Lydia Blindleteg - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 18:37:44 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396737 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1504391864698.gif -(3867926B / 3.69MB, 415x272) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>396728

okay i see and acknowledge the validity of your points. i wish to raise a theoretical counterpoint without lighting the flames of rage from those who respond to me. i simply ask, genuinely: if corporations were forced to exclusively hire from the citizenry, wouldn't the benefits of that outweigh the burdens brought by illegal workers? higher literacy/fluency of english, higher education on average, and money going to the tax paying citizens and their economic consumption boosting the country, rather than tax-fleeing illegals who send their money back to their homeland and generally bring down the value of wherever they live and congregate. so the corporations would lose money in terms of wages, but that "lost" money would be going into the actual citizens, businesses, and government of the country, instead of random third world piggy banks. im not just trying to say "daterkajerbs fuck the brown peepul" im honestly asking if this is not a valid economic consideration.
>>
Molly Tillingwill - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 22:05:04 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396745 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396734
Actually, more like 10-15 according to SOME experts. Not sure what their metrics are, but apparently they take a long time to return to after a disaster like this.
>>
Ernest Sarrywack - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 22:10:29 EST ID:NEFFIYTz No.396747 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396723

And nothing of value was said.

>>396724

If the law requires several licenses and a large amount of capital to remove debris or repair damages, then the government is at fault and they will pay for it. Personally I'd rather see tax dollars spent on this than a lavish political social event or overpriced coffee machine.

As far as private citizens, well it sounds like their shit out of luck if they don't have insurance. Insurance companies should be paying out the ass for legitimate construction contracts. If there are not illegals to circumvent the current system and pick up the slack, then the only place to go is government sanctioned contractors. Texas asked for it.

>>396726

There are alot of illegals in construction, there are many more american citizens in construction.

>>396728

Cheap goods and labor build the foundation of the United States, I agree with that. Many Americans are employed doing cheap labor. I just don't see where the issue is here. They wanted to give American jobs to American workers regardless of the monetary cost. Now there is a perfect opportunity to put their money where their mouth is. There are plenty of Americans with the ability and skill to perform these repairs.
>>
Nell Blatherman - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 22:44:14 EST ID:x3W+SdVC No.396748 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396737
ideally yes, there shouldn't be illegal labor. i don't think anyone at all is saying the labor needs to be illegal.

but in order to make your dream situation happen, construction companies would have to pay significantly higher wages. this in turns mean significant push back from the industry. what's your plan in beating them back?

your average american just is not willing to work hard manual labor for $10/hr.

to answer your question though, yes, if there was a magic wand you could flick to make companies comply with all labor laws all the time at no cost to do so, that would be fantastic. that's just unrealistic, is all.
>>
Cornelius Dringernatch - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 23:07:48 EST ID:B9sfGnG/ No.396749 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396737
You're looking at this from a viewpoint that companies don't do what's best for their bottom line. They wouldn't be doing something illegal if they didn't get a benefit from it.

Also, illegal immigrants pay taxes and boost the local economy whether you believe that or not, and generally don't see anything for their contributions.

So, no, it's not a valid consideration.
>>
Molly Tillingwill - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 23:13:27 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396750 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396748
This. The greed inherent in the current system is infinite. You would have to literally start hanging CEOs before they would change their crooked ways.
>>
Edward Girryhadge - Sat, 02 Sep 2017 23:25:43 EST ID:nppI2w1T No.396752 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396747
>If the law requires several licenses and a large amount of capital to remove debris or repair damages, then the government is at fault and they will pay for it
A license system does not necessarily represent a significant barrier to entry.
A license system is necessary to allow local municipalities to regulate the marketplace and protect their people against unethical predatory tactics, by standardizing prices, disposal requirements, banning and bringing collective legal action against companies that fail to complete their contract rather than requiring every person sue them, requiring employees are E-Verified, etc.

I've personally seen your unregulated "free market" result in vultures descending on a town, charging extortionate prices for substandard, often incomplete work and illegal practices, vanishing/reforming as they get sued.
Regulations are necessary if you want to pressure companies to compete to increase efficiency over exploiting anti-competitive practices.
>>
Edwin Barrylock - Sun, 03 Sep 2017 05:30:02 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396755 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396749

i think it's pretty laughable to compare meager sales tax to income tax
>>
Molly Tillingwill - Sun, 03 Sep 2017 08:39:33 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396761 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396755
Hey, at least rich people PAY sales tax....
>>
Cornelius Dringernatch - Sun, 03 Sep 2017 10:19:04 EST ID:B9sfGnG/ No.396763 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396755
Income tax is the most lucrative, but you're being disingenuous to call sales tax meager and continue to ignore the other taxes paid by illegal immigrants, including excise taxes.

>>396737
Also, you're operating under the assumption that construction crews don't pay even legal workers under the table, as I was paid until my first job out of college.
>>
Molly Tillingwill - Sun, 03 Sep 2017 12:12:17 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396765 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396763
The under the table thing is very common. Same in the restaurant industry where, hey guess what? A lot of illegals work.

Basically, illegals provide a big chunk of our food and shelter.
>>
Henry Nenkinstudging - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 09:17:33 EST ID:N9uEEY8x No.396808 Ignore Report Quick Reply
You centrists neolibs make me sick. Theres a ton of black and white poor out of work and turning to drugs out of misery and you want corporations to make a buck by underpaying economic migrants? Fuck you, don't​ you dare call yourselves Leftists you classcucked lib bastards
>Restaurants and the construction industry = illegals
thats urban dwellers bias, right there. You just want poor people to suffer dont you? So you can make hispanics into your indentured servant class.
As for you right and alt-right: fuck you no one cares what you think
Anyway, the moral solution is to hire the unemployed of the South/Midwest to fix up Houston, while simultaneously enrolling them in programs to get off the hard drugs
>>
the flicker !FwnV7hV52I - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 11:31:24 EST ID:iFsdrSSG No.396814 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396808
>leftist
There is absolutely nothing held in common between, say, Marxist-Leninist, and a left-liberal who rejects materialism (i.e. a social democrat). The word "leftist" is used almost exclusively by left-liberals who wish to distance themselves from both liberalism (hopeless) and revolutionary socialism (equally hopeless, but only because reactionaries will always lump them in with the pinkos). As a result, "leftist" is a meaningless word. There is no such thing.
>centrist
This is both a term of insult and proud self-identification. Some liberals call themselves "centrists" because of the mistaken belief that their ideology is rationalized and extrapolitical. Left-liberals use it as a term of abuse out of a sort of Protestant liberalism, that is, they believe the earthly representatives of liberalism are fallen, and the Word must be rescued by good liberals — excuse me, "leftists".
>>
Eugene Collerbudge - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:46:03 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396840 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396763

sales tax is definitely meager compared to income tax, and excise tax is even less, lol you think booze and gasoline taxes will cover the food stamps and healthcare and shit the illegals steal?
>>
Basil Shakecocke - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 18:13:37 EST ID:WQQ+NOb5 No.396842 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396840
Please enumerate all the shit illegals steal. Especially compared to legal citizens getting paid under the table.

Also you don't have to be illegal to "steal" healthcare. The fact that uninsured people exist in this country at all is raising the cost for the rest of us, but that's a topic for another thread.
>>
Phyllis Tillingwater - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 18:14:34 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.396843 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396840
Illegals don't "steal" food stamps given that most states don't allow them to draw it in the first place, and the states that do (e.g., California) explicitly allow them to. And plenty of American citizens don't pay income taxes at all, hence Romney's shtick in 2012 about being part of the "48%" that pays them.

Since we still have a more or less progressive income tax, the majority of tax revenues come from the upper class, who don't draw welfare at all (although they benefit from the upward redistribution of wealth in other forms). I would doubt that most illegal immigrants make enough to be taxed much in the first place. The libertarian Cato Institute has this to say about the fiscal "cost" of illegal immigration (italics mine):
>Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during the start of their working years —between the ages of 18 and 35 — they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/cutting-immigration-myths-down-size

Forgive me if someone's already linked to this page.

>>396808
I'm a socialist, and I believe in international working class solidarity. Capitalism has the industrial reserve army built straight into it. If you really care about poor working class whites and blacks, you'd fight for putting wealth into their hands through the formation of workers' cooperatives (which have long been part of black socialist praxis) and the repeal of right-to-work laws which hamper union organizing in the states with the highest concentrations of black workers; stoking racial resentment and division divides the working class and eliminates the collective bargaining power of all workers. It's the same reason white workers in the south, where white supremacy is most entrenched, have lower wages and lower standards of living than white workers in the north. Dividing and conquering, building resentment, they're the tools of capitalist power.
>>
Lillian Blackstone - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 20:05:36 EST ID:acJATAov No.396845 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>earn less than minimum wage
>no 401k
>no maternity leave
>no health insurance
>no osha compliance
>no child labor laws
illegal labor is borderline indentured servitude and this "corporations are above the law cause muh jobs" bullshit needs to end.
>>
William Fenkinwell - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 23:00:16 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396852 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396843

how is there a payroll tax if the wages are under the table cash, nigga
>>
Edwin Gosslewell - Tue, 05 Sep 2017 23:01:52 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.396853 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396852
Not all illegal immigrants work for under the table cash. E-Verify and the like aren't in use in the vast majority of workplaces either.
>>
John Wuzzleson - Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:51:38 EST ID:9S2mXkIq No.396870 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396845
Exactly, I always love the liberal defense of illegal immigrant workers of "They do the jobs you won't" but not realizing it's almost slavery because of that fact.
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Lydia Brookspear - Wed, 06 Sep 2017 16:38:02 EST ID:ixqOA5lP No.396874 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396870
that's the capitalist defense.
the liberal defense is "you can't, like, own mother earth, man".
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Augustus Fanforth - Wed, 06 Sep 2017 18:02:55 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396875 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396870
And the right's fix is: "Let's not go after the people that hire them in the first place. Going against min wage laws and treating them to an insufficient income. Let's go after those people that come here looking for an opportunity, and let's do this in the most inhumane ways possible." Your moral defense doesn't work.

It's not a moral rationalization that we say this. It's a statement of fact of why they come here and who is responsible for encouraging it in the first place. All because you guys are terrified of regulations and making businesses accountable for their actions.

It's already almost slavery the way it is. Redistribution of wealth by the wealthy through various means. One of which is paying employees such a low wage that they are forced to take on subsidies that the average American pays for, in which all that money goes into the Waltons pockets.

It's misplaced anger. It usually is.
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Henry Greenforth - Wed, 06 Sep 2017 21:56:16 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396886 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396853

but the vast majority of them do. which means all these arguments in their favor regarding payroll tax is hilarious bullshit. no income tax, no payroll tax, only meager sales tax. cost of illegals > profit from illegals
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Sidney Wackleford - Wed, 06 Sep 2017 22:52:01 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.396891 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396886
>but the vast majority of them do

Citation needed.
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Jenny Shittingfield - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 07:23:55 EST ID:6tYnT5h8 No.396900 Report Quick Reply
>>396886

Illegal immigrants cannot collect welfare. They cannot collect social security. They cannot get insurance. They pay in through sales tax far more than they get out.
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Henry Greenforth - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 12:37:59 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396904 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396900

In contrast to lawful immigrants, unlawful immigrants at present do not have access to means-tested welfare, Social Security, or Medicare. This does not mean, however, that they do not receive government benefits and services. Children in unlawful immigrant households receive heavily subsidized public education. Many unlawful immigrants have U.S.-born children; these children are currently eligible for the full range of government welfare and medical benefits. And, of course, when unlawful immigrants live in a community, they use roads, parks, sewers, police, and fire protection; these services must expand to cover the added population or there will be “congestion” effects that lead to a decline in service quality.

In 2010, the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes. This generated an average annual fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of around $14,387 per household. This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.

http://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer


>>396891

Federal government data shows that while roughly half of illegal immigrants file federal tax returns, the vast majority of them don’t pay any federal income taxes. Instead, they use these returns to claim refundable tax credits, which are a form of cash welfare. In other words, illegal immigrants mainly use the federal income tax code to collect money from U.S. citizens.

http://www.justfactsdaily.com/illegal-immigrants-and-federal-income-taxes/


How is this hard to comprehend? People secretly and illegally enter a country, drain it of any resources they can leech, and people point to the few unavoidable taxes (lmao sales tax) as some sort of remittance that makes them critical bastions of the economy instead of leechers.
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Cyril Tillingville - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 14:36:50 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396906 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396904
>n. Many unlawful immigrants have U.S.-born children; these children are currently eligible for the full range of government welfare and medical benefits.

Obviously, seeing as how they are Americans. These ones end up getting jobs and put money back into the economy. The "resource drain" thing isn't black and white. US born children by unlawful immigrants put billions back into the economy over a span of a couple decades.
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Edward Turveygold - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 20:29:58 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396945 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396906

where your sources at? lets see some data on anchor baby payroll taxes being equivalent to federal assistance consumed by their household in same timeframe? i went and got a little data, now you
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Shitting Dallydudge - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:19:56 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396954 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396945
Much of the information comes from https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration The right often cherry picks from this data and leaves out any positives that the data also reveals.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/opinion/campaign-stops/what-does-immigration-actually-cost-us.html?_r=0 An analysis on the discussion.
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Shitting Dallydudge - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:23:19 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396955 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396954
"For the 2011-2013 period, the net cost to state and local budgets of first generation adults is, on average, about $1,600 each. In contrast, second and third-plus generation adults create a net positive of about $1,700 and $1,300 each, respectively, to state and local budgets. These estimates imply that the total annual fiscal impact of first generation adults and their dependents, averaged across 2011-13, is a cost of $57.4 billion, while second and third-plus generation adults create a benefit of $30.5 billion and $223.8 billion, respectively."
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Shitting Dallydudge - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:38:55 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.396956 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Another article on how much taxes illegals put into the system, especially social security.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/
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Edward Turveygold - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 23:30:22 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396957 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396954

What a great read, thank you genuinely for sharing. It seems I am being a little short-sighted in my views. In the short term illegals are a net cost, but by generation 3 they have brought in a net profit. It seems both sides are correct on some details but ignoring the grand scheme. As they say in the article,

>These opposing views demonstrate the complexity of the core findings in the academy’s report, which is multifaceted enough to allow for competing interpretations. The report suggests that immigration is not a clear-cut issue in which one side is right and the other wrong, but that there are both costs and benefits.
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Hamilton Pittfield - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 00:00:44 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396959 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396957
This is a fair take.

OK, so let us say it is a wash on those arguments. We then end up with the ethical dilemma. Is it ethical to deny DACA?
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Edward Turveygold - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 01:04:24 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396963 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396959

How far does America's ethical obligation extend, particularly pertaining to illegal immigrants?
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Hamilton Hungerbick - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 05:20:03 EST ID:9k6SLa8o No.396968 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396957
Hold the fucking phone, did someone just change their political views as a result of sincere and honest debate on 420chan /pol/?
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James Dozzlebury - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 07:38:12 EST ID:LH6gXCFK No.396972 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396968
It happens more often than you'd think, and we'd probably have more mea villa posts if the rhetoric was so vitriolic. Id like to think that a lot of the people who come here are trying to learn and shape their ideas by bouncing them off of other people. In practice it devolved into a shouting match of "if you believe that fuck you" or "I don't have to take the argument of an (insert group here) seriously."

Sometimes when people are acting like civil adults, admitting that you didn't know something and your view has changed because of the new information, is a lot easier to do.
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James Dozzlebury - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 07:38:44 EST ID:LH6gXCFK No.396973 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396972
*mea culpa
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Jenny Mavingsetch - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 09:38:27 EST ID:rSCOCuPW No.396974 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396963
>Is it ethical to deport people with a high school education/honorable discharge from the military and a clean criminal record who are living and working here?
I don't see how it is. These are people just living their lives. Why does it matter where they were born?
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James Devingtot - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 21:43:08 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.397001 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396974

u responded to wrong post homie

>>396972
thats the only reason i come here. the blanket of anonymity allows people to express their true views, regardless of social norms, so i come on here and just toss out ideas or questions and see who says what. i am willing to listen to any side, if they have legit sources. i have learned some interesting things on here and /n/. Hell even on /b/ you can learn great shit, have you heard of the bird behavior called Anting? many species of bird will literally sit on a pile of ants so they will clean their feathers and shit. i would never know that if not for 420ch
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Archie Brobblesit - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 06:02:02 EST ID:nppI2w1T No.397004 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396972
>mea villa
my... town?
mea culpa? That usually means my fuckup.
Lets just speak English. You mean people acknowledging flaws in their argument or nuances their perspective didn't account for.

I feel like a lot of people grow from these discussions (the ones between the proselytizers who come here with talking points and assumptions responding to some fiction of what his opposition is, or the rote talking points/literature references that try to get people on the same page), but don't necessarily say they fucked up or learned something.
I've found I was wrong about shit or if I didn't make some polemic shift, realized the issue was a lot more complicated and various aspects of my stance were confounded.

One's philosophy and experience aren't hard things shattered by a single logical argument or datum, they're formed of many subtle, unstated assumptions and axioms and observations.

Fuck, ten years ago, I was right-libertarian, believing that capitalism maximized freedom (also prosperity, usually)
I didn't have some revelation where I said "My God, capitalism is inherently immoral, historically inefficient, and exclusive to a free market, thanks for giving me that red pill!", the contradictions just became more apparent and various assumptions that I hadn't realized I'd made were eroded.
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Fucking Blackbanks - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 07:32:46 EST ID:E0iKQ/s8 No.397006 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397004
That tends to happen when you analyze society and aren't at least a millionaire.
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Albert Soffingbanks - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 09:01:46 EST ID:9k6SLa8o No.397043 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397038
>They'll use domestic labor instead, yeah it will cost more, so what?

So do you really think they'll eat those costs themselves? They'll just charge more for products and increase automation.
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Name - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 11:24:52 EST ID:mOBqRwNR No.397045 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397038
>our government can just print some more money to cover the expense

Idk how they didn't think of it. Just print enough money to make us all rich, just don't give any to brown poeple. Fool proof.
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Isabella Grandfuck - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:19:40 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.397047 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397045
There's probably limits to how much the government can print without triggering hyperinflation but according to modern monetary theory we haven't reached those limits and there's not much empirical evidence for us that it's really going to be the case. We're not Zimbabwe, and we aren't facing the conditions Weimar Germany faced under the Treaty of Versailles. The US can't just print so much money everyone gets rich, but it has, as far as we know, an unlimited ability to create money to pay off its debts.

Granted I know jack shit about MMT and I get the feeling, since it's part of ~orthodox economics~, that it's probably largely bullshit. But it seems to have a decent enough track record so far.
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Cyril Herringsirk - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 18:19:50 EST ID:8cv2jdtQ No.397055 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396875
man, this so hard.

why are you rightists so unwilling to actually go after the businesses that hire illegals, rather than the illegals in the first place? if the problem is really "dey derk are jerbs" and not "we don't like brown people muddying up our country/culture," that seems like a way more efficient way to solve the problem, first and foremost because THOSE BUSINESSES ARE ENTIRELY WITHIN OUR JURISDICTION, whereas there's little more we can do with illegal immigration other than just send them back once they're here, after which of course they just come right back.

you can also focus your efforts on a lot fewer targets that are easier to hit (ie because businesses normally have fixed addresses that are on public records). but no, the solution is always to go after the illegals.

throw in the "rapists and murderers" type side-arguments and it's no wonder why no sane person buys your "it's not that we hate foreigners/aren't racist, we just want what's best for our economy/society!" bullshit. at least the far-right is being honest about that now, explicitly stating it's about ethno-nationalism.
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Emma Berringchare - Mon, 11 Sep 2017 15:55:02 EST ID:uW9KWJtY No.397060 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397055
>why are you rightists so unwilling to actually go after the businesses that hire illegals
  1. in the USA, being a rightist, if we're using the simplified 2D political spectrum, means you're a republican
  2. generally, republicans favor businesses over workers' rights
  3. therefore, rightists don't care about this angle because it would hurt businesses

All this talk about immigration is just saber rattling, and the common republican voter eats it up while the people they vote for make sure they don't make too strong of a push towards enforcing immigration laws or making tougher laws. why not? because it'll piss off the people who write their checks.

it is truly political theater, and not the entertaining kind. it's the kind you hate-watch, like vanderpump rules or whatever "reality" show. i don't know if the average republican voter is too stupid to realize the wool has been pulled over their eyes, or if they're in on it and just use it as a rallying cry.
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David Brallerhall - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 19:25:03 EST ID:GmdgEHro No.397089 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397060
Many Democrats are pro-business, anti-worker as well. Yet more supportive of immigrants?
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Ian Cleffingson - Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:51:32 EST ID:9k6SLa8o No.397099 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397089
Now you're getting it! Democrats make a lot of noise in support of immigrant workers while doing pretty much the same things the Republicans do; meanwhile, the Republicans make a lot of noise in support of American workers while doing basically the same thing as the Democrats. Both parties are, in practice, pro-corporate and anti-worker; they just rattle their sabres in different directions.

It's also important to keep in mind that pro-business and pro-corporate are not the same thing. Most leftists have no problem with small businesses, but the multi-nationals that have corrupted politics and stagnated workers wages for decades absolutely must be opposed.
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Phyllis Smalllock - Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:27:03 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397103 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397099
You have a keen political eye.
Thanks for that post.
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Martin Brogglehood - Thu, 14 Sep 2017 15:59:28 EST ID:vrI8ZFKT No.397108 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397099
>emocrats make a lot of noise in support of immigrant workers while doing pretty >much the same things the Republicans do; meanwhile, the Republicans make
>a lot of noise in support of American workers while doing basically the same
>thing as the Democrats.

Hmm, interesting. Wondering which direction is better. I would go with the smaller businesses interests. politically, the right generally favors the big interests, low oversight.
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Caroline Wushdere - Thu, 14 Sep 2017 21:02:59 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397113 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397108
One huge problem is that the Ds love globalization unconditionally now, and that means you sort of need shit-tier wage jobs. The kind only illegals will take because, well, who will they complain to about their abusive work environment and starvation wages? The Ds have bought into the "all in or all out," mentality when it comes to globalism. Instead we need to walk a moderate line. One that protects wages discourages profiteering while encouraging profiting.
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Augustus Nazzlestock - Fri, 15 Sep 2017 09:14:48 EST ID:qM9Zeovx No.397117 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397113
>One that protects wages discourages profiteering while encouraging profiting.
this has nothing to do with globalism or democrats specifically, though. it's really a feature of capitalism. Republicans (both the globalist and the white nationalist kind) have been dismantling labor protections and opposing wage increases. at least some D's are fighting for a higher minimum wage. Some higher than others...
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Nathaniel Bendleson - Fri, 15 Sep 2017 10:55:10 EST ID:Vwoc9qnJ No.397118 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397113
since when did Rs not like globalism? even trump is a neolib globalist.
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Caroline Wushdere - Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:51:17 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397122 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397118
Not saying Rs don't. Just that so do Ds. To the point where they look like Rs.
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Martha Chebbershaw - Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:29:06 EST ID:HYNIIWh0 No.397127 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397122
>To the point where they look like Rs.
well, amen to that.

i think a lot of people have started to come to this realization, that the Rs and Ds are really one and the same. what still baffles me though is how people thought trump was the solution to this... a rich new york real estate tycoon with political connections to both sides...
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Martha Pullywill - Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:59:32 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.397128 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397127

R2-D2 was the secret message all along. the dash is actually an equals sign.

R2=D2

divide both sides by 2

R = D
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Hugh Hibblestock - Sat, 16 Sep 2017 18:46:10 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397146 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397127
And one who wants to fuck his own daughter....


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