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Fish hook theory by Samuel Claybanks - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 16:12:57 EST ID:Ln/AmOJE No.396913 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1504815177988.png -(160174B / 156.42KB, 1045x621) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 160174
What are your thoughts on the fish hook theory?
It states that people who label themselves 'centrist' or 'classical liberals' almost always end up apologizing for, sympathizing with, and supporting the far right.

I think there's a lot of truth to that, just look at any 'objective'/rational/skeptic youtubefag. Their mortal enemy is always "THE LEFTISTS", not 'all authoritarianism' that they claim to oppose.

Libertarians are a perfect example of this too. They used to hate the left and right equally but have now entirely sided with the far right (just look at ex-libertarians like Stefan Molyneux).
>>
George Horringhadge - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 16:30:18 EST ID:BviTmPmk No.396914 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>google "fish hook theory"
>bunch of circlejerk may may pages
eeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhh...

to sort of answer your question though, yes, the recent spate "centrists" emerging do all just tend to be conservatives/rightists who just don't wanna call themselves as such. i don't think they were ever actually genuinely centrist, it's just that the shaming of the far-right made them not wanna identify with them, even if they were always ideologically aligned.

basically, they were always just rightists in denial.
>>
Lillian Buzzfield - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 18:37:48 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.396932 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396914
This! I know "centrists," who sound like Kekistanis 97% of the time....
>>
Edward Turveygold - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 20:28:00 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396944 Ignore Report Quick Reply
can we stop having flame wars about how central or non central the centrists may or may not be?
>>
Cornelius Cebberwetch - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 20:36:05 EST ID:FvS7gpUy No.396946 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396944
>dont criticize my ideology that's flaming!
This board is about disagreement and debate, not a safe space
>>
Alice Dartshaw - Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:01:39 EST ID:Vwoc9qnJ No.396952 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396944
defining terms and identifying ideologies/dissecting positions is like half of any political discussion you have with people who don't already share your beliefs.

so, no.
>>
Edward Turveygold - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 01:00:55 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.396962 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396946

i dont identify with centrism homie its not "my ideology" just a topic im tired of seeing beaten to death over multiple threads
>>
Phineas Blibberdock - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 01:44:24 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.396964 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's a parody of horseshoe theory and shouldn't be taken seriously beyond that.

I've thought for a while now that any political spectrum is overly reductive and political positions need to be judged on the basis of what the political organizations that represent them actually stand for - in theory and in practice. There's always overlap in beliefs that can't be represented by political compasses. To the extent that it's useful in describing certain positions, e.g., the real differences between left-libertarians and right-libertarians, it still shouldn't be used to reduce these political philosophies to a set of principles supposedly unique to the right and left.
>>
Jenny Mavingsetch - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 09:44:15 EST ID:rSCOCuPW No.396975 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396962
then use the "hide thread" button fam.
>>
Charles Naggleletch - Fri, 08 Sep 2017 10:51:09 EST ID:/xEbt2bm No.396978 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396962
if there's more than one centrist thread on the front page, report it and it'll get dealt with.

if there's only one, boo fucking hoo, too fucking bad. you don't get to dictate what topics people discuss.

>WEH WEH WEH WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST DISCUSS THE THINGS AND ONLY THE THINGS THAT I WANT TO DISCUSS WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH THS SHOULD BE MY PERSONAL PLAYGROUND

you can always hide the thread, leave the website, or just plain kill yourself.
>>
Sophie Mindledale - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 12:22:20 EST ID:NEFFIYTz No.397013 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Guys those damn fucking jolly african-american lefties and boot licking faggot centrists and pig fucking jolly african-american dick righties are all pieces of shit.

But you know who I hate the most?

THOSE GREEN PARTY QUEERS

fuck them greenies and their vegan solar panel bullshit.
>>
James Devingtot - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 12:32:31 EST ID:7vXpw3uu No.397014 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396978

>caps lock
>suggesting suicide

who hurt you?
>>
Priscilla Mimmerfield - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 19:00:59 EST ID:VgsxDFSB No.397018 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1504998059013.jpg -(92089B / 89.93KB, 960x540) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
DICKS EVERYWHERE
>>
Hedda Dunkinford - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 19:36:47 EST ID:Vwoc9qnJ No.397019 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397014
i'm sorry i hurt your feelings so badly that you weren't even able to make a proper retort, i'll be more considerate of your emotional fragility in the future.

>>397018
even their memes are ripoffs...
>>
Fanny Honeybanks - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 20:08:43 EST ID:kdeXld5j No.397022 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>OP Here
>I think that all non-liberals support and sympathize with the radical right
>Fuck skeptics and rationals amirite?

Just because someone isn't on your side doesn't make them your enemy, nor does it make them sympathetic to your enemies.
This whole 'if you're not with me then you're against me' mentality liberals have is extraordinarily toxic and based solely in paranoia, not rationality nor democracy.
>>
Albert Blommletot - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 20:14:49 EST ID:WyHz/CRt No.397025 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397022
have you seen the "centrists" that have been posting here lately? they actively hate the left and support thenroght, but then just say "haha but i'm a centrist."

i mean, okay, fuck definitions i guess. i really want more funding for education and free universal healthcare. i'm a laissez faire libertarian though, and if you disagree with me you're playing the with or against fallacy, mmmkay?
>>
Fanny Honeybanks - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 20:27:11 EST ID:kdeXld5j No.397026 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397025
I don't come here too often anymore, /pol/ just ain't a great place man lol.

Well, I haven't seen what they're saying, but I mean I have seen the centrists take an anti-far-left stance, and the far-left seems to be a bigger group than the far-right. Like when centrists see left-wingers preaching violence or Marxism they draw a hard line on it and say 'this is never OK'.

I think more funding to education would fix almost all of our current social issues, man. And god knows we could get that money from the military budget EASY.
But idk man, universal health care? I think our healthcare is, or at least was, way better than universal health care, but that being said, we have one massive flaw; our federal government constantly supports monarchical pharmaceuticals who control the price of drugs and the like and make them ridiculously expensive. And the issue is that competition has been utterly killed in the pharmaceutical industry. You wonder how people like Martin Shkreli exist, when in reality it's this fucked up system that allows them to exist, he's just one of the only ones thrust into the limelight. I'm sure there are plenty of other Shkreli-types out there currently fucking all of us for huge profits and that's what's fucking up our medical system. Same thing with the war industry; we're constantly thrust into war just so people like Boeing can keep getting jet contracts and other BS we truly don't need.
Capitalism could solve this, but you can't have capitalism when the government is killing competition to appease rich supporters.
>>
Eliza Croddlenotch - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 20:36:20 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397027 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397026
>I think our healthcare is, or at least was, way better than universal health care,

I know both the US and the UK health care systems. Used both.

UK > USA.

Hands fucking down. The myth that "we have the best," is a fucking Capitalist lie.
>>
Fanny Honeybanks - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 20:46:40 EST ID:kdeXld5j No.397030 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397027
>a fucking capitalist lie.
Like I JUST said, the USA's health care system isn't capitalist, and that's a big part of the problem.
>>
Caroline Buzzleville - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 20:59:17 EST ID:FZwyp5B6 No.397031 Report Quick Reply
>>397026

>Capitalism could solve this, but you can't have capitalism when the government is killing competition to appease rich supporters.

Capitalism is what allowed all of this shit to build up to it's current point. Capitalism breeds greed, has been the source of the majority of conflict in the past 100 years, allows for corruption and the vile psychopaths to attain power that they absolutely should not have.
>>
Eliza Croddlenotch - Sat, 09 Sep 2017 21:51:15 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397032 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397031
This guy gets it.

The Big Lie is that England and Canada have fucking death panels everywhere and everything in the US is super efficient and top notch.

It isn't. I have been trying to get a new MD...and I HAVE FUCKING INSURANCE BTW, for over a year. Nobody will get me on the fucking list, because they are all full up. And this is good insurance.

Meanwhile, if I wanted to pay cash, I could get an appointment tomorrow.

Shit, we let kids die from treatable diseases DAILY in the US. DAILY.

Every single day kids die in the US because their parents are broke.

We are shitty people with a shitty system.
>>
Phineas Sicklehug - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 01:07:54 EST ID:dLSgzthc No.397035 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>396913
it sounds like basic Stalinist propaganda, really. "if you're not with us, you're supporting fascists!".

never forget the Berlin Wall was officially known as the anti-fascist protective barrier. marxists have been playing the definition game for a long time; it's common to all hegelians, including fascists (who are right-hegelians). hegel was the one who believed you could control society with language after all.

as a result pretending that anyone who isn't a leftist is a fascists supports the leftist narrative in two ways: it asserts that hegelianism is inevitable and it makes the opposition look unpalatable. leftists reinforce this illusion by making drummed-up claims about the right (e.g. that the CIA was responsible for the coup in Chile) and when non-leftists correct them ( http://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/news/20000919/01-01.htm ) they're accused of "supporting" the right, when in reality we're just rejecting false information. for a leftist, though, even the idea that negative information about fascists ought to be subject to, y'know, verification, is defending fascists.

historically, the people who actually end up fighting against fascists are generally not really leftists. stalin, for example, had basically given up on ideological purity; he reversed most of lenin's leftist social agenda and implemented a nationalist command economy to support the war effort. pinochet was ultimately thrown out by objections from a: corporations, b: religious institutions and c: his economic allies (that's America), not by a communist revolution. in iran, the shah was not thrown out by communists, but by theocrats; in spain, francisco franco defeated the left and was ultimately overthrown by parkinson's disease, which seems to be common among fascists. leftism succeeded only where it allied with nationalism explicitly (russia, china, argentina), or implicitly by framing the conflict as a war against foreigners (cuba, vietnam, somalia). peron, castro, ho-chi, mao, were all nationalist to some extent; it's the left's dirty little secret.

for similar manipulative nonsense, see horseshoe theory, where centrists and libertarians argue that leftism leads to fascism. this is also false, but now it's a falsehood that comes from my side, which makes it even more revolting.

no side is really above this bullshit, but you can be individually above it by refusing to let anyone poison the well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

which is really the goal of anyone who tells you that X-leads-to-fascism: they're scared that X is right, and they are wrong, so this is their defense.
>>
Phineas Sicklehug - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 01:11:25 EST ID:dLSgzthc No.397036 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397035
ps: the reason leftists win wars by allying with nationalists isn't because horseshoe theory is right, it's because military conflicts have a naturally conservative bias. affective empathy is racist, tribalist, nationalist, sexist, and also extremely effective at making people kill each other. not exactly a big surprise that people who think that history is going to end in some happily-ever-after Communist Disney movie tend to be bad at fighting.
>>
Basil Donderditch - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 07:30:02 EST ID:D3IZqUk/ No.397041 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think part of it is some of those guys really are far right apologists in disguise/denial. These probably are the majority by far of people identifying like this.

The other part of it is some people taking things an actual centrist says and misconstruing them to be something else. You say one thing and people make all sorts of leaps and bounds and erroneous assumptions. For the most part people are incapable of approaching any situation with even a sliver of the nuance needed to fully understand it. They break it down into easier to understand chunks, things are either good or their bad, their either this or they're that. Things that happen have one reason or cause and you just have to find THE reason.

Centrists very often hold nuanced views which you can't easily explain because in reality nothing has one reason, one cause, the explanations are chains of events and flows of information from one topic to another across a wide spectrum of topics which may seem unconnected at first. Things are always shades of grey and the future is constantly in motion, changing from moment to moment, development to development and attempting to explain anything always ends up in a gross oversimplification because of the restraints of language and when they do attempt to explain them, it sounds to people a lot like apologizing for "the other side" but really they're just trying to explain how all the various facets of a much larger picture fit together, which most people can only see one part of from one viewpoint. Few people have the patience to hear someone out to entirety. Most people get gut reactions to something someone says and basically stop listening for anything they're saying except for things they can use to attack or feed their rage ball. They end up hearing something they don't like and labeling someone alt right and becoming an attack dog and projecting and putting words in their mouth.

Overall there's always a lot of individual variation, so while we can make observations about the group as a whole we shouldn't judge or try to assume what anyone believes based on the ideological label they choose to assume. Labels are the worst example of obliteration of nuance and I hate them and try to avoid them as much as possible.
>>
Isabella Grandfuck - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:29:39 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.397048 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397035
>hegel was the one who believed you could control society with language after all.

That's not what Hegel actually believed. And calling fascists "right-hegelians" is only true in the case of a handful of theorists, like Giovanni Gentile in particular, whose influence over Il Duce is much overstated. Il Duce ruled on a whim, he wasn't really motivated by a coherent set of principles, and fascism in Italy never cohered around a set of common principles beyond "action for action's sake" and things like that. It was blatantly anti-intellectual.

I have no idea why right-wingers are so scared of Hegel all of a sudden. Hegel believed Prussian liberal democracy was the final stage of government, and the most consistent expression of that principle would be the neoconservative Francis Fukuyama who said, after the Cold War, that history was over and we've reached the final form of human government.

>which is really the goal of anyone who tells you that X-leads-to-fascism: they're scared that X is right, and they are wrong, so this is their defense.

I agree with this so I don't know why you singled out Hegelians.
>>
Isabella Grandfuck - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:36:37 EST ID:kZUMXybj No.397049 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397041
>Overall there's always a lot of individual variation, so while we can make observations about the group as a whole we shouldn't judge or try to assume what anyone believes based on the ideological label they choose to assume

This. People need to avoid thinking so abstractly, and focus more on what concrete individuals and organizations believe, promote, and act upon. If you take the anti-communist definition of "communism" seriously, you'd never understand why communists like Paul Mattick or Anton Pannekoek were critics of the USSR and the Bolsheviks, or why Trotsky was exiled from the USSR and later assassinated by the NKVD. Reducing communism to its Stalinist expression was good for the State Department and FBI when it tried to limit the appeal of the communist movement, but it doesn't give way to an accurate understanding of the movement. Likewise for any other label. Reductionism necessarily leads to a loss of clarity.
>>
Charlotte Drummernere - Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:32:35 EST ID:xQbV1JEs No.397054 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397048
Right-wingers are scared of Hegel because Hegel is all about synthesis. Progression. Change. Combining two juxtaposed ideas that for lesser minds appear to be worlds apart into something better, with none of the previous faults and all of the benefits.
>>
Phyllis Goodman - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 01:05:25 EST ID:cB61Xg61 No.397064 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397035
>peron, castro, ho-chi, mao, were all nationalist to some extent; it's the left's dirty little secret.

Nationalism wasn't invented by Donald Trump and UKIP in 2014, you gigantic flaming retard. Virtually all national liberation movements have had some element of a proletarian character, including the Iranian Revolution of 1979 before it was fully co-opted by the clerics. Imperialism being the highest stage of capitalism, anti-imperialism is the highest stage of people's liberation. The CIA actively worked to create the conditions of instability to facilitate coups in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, the Congo, Grenada, and many other nations. The fact that the overgrown, hydra-like bureaucracy that is your intelligence service engendered many independent harebrained schemes working often at cross-purposes, does not exonerate the agency or its sponsor for its occasional "success."
>>
Hannah Bemmleworth - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 04:40:17 EST ID:7ddgkA/3 No.397067 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397013
ok.
>>
Shitting Coffinghood - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 05:49:50 EST ID:PtoOvt6P No.397068 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In my experience "centrist" is just a strawman insult that those drinking ideological kool aid use for everyone who hasn't "picked a team". Funnily enough its often people that claim to read Stirner & Zizek that do this. Fucking fakes
90% of the time centrist is not correlated with "classical liberal" in everyday use of the word
What im trying to say is, fuck you. Dont assume im fucking Sargon just because Im not participating in your pointless spectacle.
>>
Shitting Coffinghood - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 05:55:29 EST ID:PtoOvt6P No.397069 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Hell even normiea are catching onto the meme. The other day on social media I got dogpiled with "lel centrist" replies after saying Dems and the GOP were both shit
THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT. FUCK.
>>
Emma Drennerville - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 09:12:52 EST ID:NEFFIYTz No.397071 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397067

What I was trying to say is arguing about this is fucking retarded and that you should feel retarded for arguing about it.
>>
Graham Chegglekit - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 09:56:37 EST ID:nppI2w1T No.397072 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>397068 >>397069
In my experience people who claim they're centrists have views which almost entirely fit on one side or the other, but have unfavorable associations with those categorized on the left or right, such as the perception that someone on the left or right doesn't listen to what the other side says (even if they themselves only get their media from a partisan infosphere) or the various strawmen both sides cherrypick and use to represent the entirety of the other side (I'm not a leftist, I don't believe we should put people in prison for others feelings and the government should control everything, I'm not a rightist, I don't believe we should genocide the blacks and jews).
>>
Priscilla Bloddleford - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:28:39 EST ID:uW9KWJtY No.397075 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>397072
>the various strawmen both sides cherrypick and use to represent the entirety of the other side (I'm not a leftist, I don't believe we should put people in prison for others feelings and the government should control everything, I'm not a rightist, I don't believe we should genocide the blacks and jews).
The difference is no one is actually advocating imprisoning people for hurting someone's feelings. maybe a literal nobody trying to bait people into clicking on their jezebel post, but there certainly aren't organizations rallied around the idea, like the alt-right & kkk are organized around white supremacy, and the alt-right is in the white house.

the other problem is that people don't really understand what they mean when they say "centrist". on an absolute scale, the democratic party is really center right and the republican party is very right, moving towards far right. If you say you're a "centrist", what do you really mean by that? That you're "center" on the absolute scale? That would mean you're left of the mainstream democrats!

Do you mean you're in the "center" of the two mainstream parties? Well, that plants you firmly on the right of the absolute scale, maybe around John Kasich territory, and that's a guy who won't say climate change is human caused, is in favor of for profit prisons, flip flops on legalizing medicinal marijuana, cut the estate tax, restricted collective bargaining power of public employees and holds other stances that I can't see a "centrist" agreeing with.
>>
Wesley Cluddlemun - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:02:45 EST ID:G8IfSLH5 No.397086 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>396913
>fish hook theory

Too simplistic. I'd like to introduce you to the Buckley Model, which i believe illustrates the situation with the proper amount of depth that such a nuanced topic deserves
>>
David Brallerhall - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 19:18:10 EST ID:GmdgEHro No.397088 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397075
I'm on the same page, except this weird development occurring, with the Bush-era neocons allying themselves with the Democratic Party establishment. The neocons probably shouldn't be put next to the Tea Party on the spectrum. https://theintercept.com/2017/07/17/with-new-d-c-policy-group-dems-continue-to-rehabilitate-and-unify-with-bush-era-neocons/
>>
Eugene Wugglenine - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 20:50:01 EST ID:W/5QIxqe No.397090 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>trying to get to the book board
>end up clicking /pol/ by accident
>everybody I disagree with is far right: the thread
I forgot how bad this board was lol. I mean, it's still better than most niche internet political boards since there's no unsourced right wing infographics and pepes being spammed everywhere but god damn is this what we've been reduced to? being so afraid of anyone who might not be as left wing as we are, and just lumping all together as outright fascists, with the only saving grace being "at least we're not them"? seeing shit like this reminds me a little bit of when someone tries to state some basic left wing idea but gets shouted down as a "leftist" or "sjw" by the internet peanut gallery. I guess it's all just the same shit. nobody cares about politics or society really it's just about sides, not so much what they stand for but simply that they are on that side, like some sort of demented overly serious sport fandom. fuck politics god damn.
>>
Phyllis Smalllock - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 21:08:30 EST ID:IIsxRMZh No.397091 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397088
The Dems and the NeoCons were always two sides of the same coin...
>>
Matilda Basslechan - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 21:14:44 EST ID:GmdgEHro No.397092 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>397090
Its more nuanced then that bud. As if there's only two sides, or a couple. Sure there's shit flinging, but there's interesting points made too. Even on the far-left there's disagreement, even though they align closely. Also there's crypto-fascists who are back-pedaling and disguising themselves as centrists, not that all people who describe themselves as centrists are being disingenuous. Besides, what is a centrist position anyway?

Political theory should be a means towards understanding what's going on and how to take effective action to further one's goals. Particularly about how to improve the well-being of people in need.

Anyway, yay books.
>>
Matilda Basslechan - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 21:16:44 EST ID:GmdgEHro No.397093 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397092 ...Such as: >>397072 points.

>>397091 Ah, it wasn't clear to me until recently, if that means anything.
>>
Reuben Greenforth - Tue, 12 Sep 2017 22:43:08 EST ID:XqOr0TAj No.397094 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397036
Except leftist only ever ally with nationalists when the nation is under colonial rule because nationalism is acceptable only when all of your nation's shit is owned by some other nation. Otherwise internationalism all the way.
>>
Phyllis Goodman - Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:19:45 EST ID:cB61Xg61 No.397096 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397094
Your privilege is showing: you speak of it as if political conviction is universally a luxury, as if oppressed peoples only "ally with nationalists" when abstract reasoning is overwhelmed by circumstances, and once sovereignty is restored they return to a "baseline" leftism, becoming decent progressive-minded internationalists. Proletarian alienation and (neo)colonialist subjugation are linked phenomena. This is why Marxist movements are successful in the impoverished nations at the global periphery. There isn't a discrete and contradictory nationalist impulse to be made a temporary peace with.
>>
Molly Nunderwell - Sat, 16 Sep 2017 22:35:13 EST ID:XqOr0TAj No.397151 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397096
This is an overly pretense and verbose attempt to say leftist and nationalist immediate goals are indistinguishable when under colonial rule. Which is basically what I said.
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Rebecca Perryville - Sat, 16 Sep 2017 23:31:17 EST ID:6zMbvvFZ No.397153 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I think it's accurate. "Enabler" is an apt term to describe the Centrists who allow and tolerate the far-right to root themselves onto society.
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Wesley Pittham - Wed, 20 Sep 2017 14:37:49 EST ID:Kn19Eg9q No.397202 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397153
Ah yeah because I believe racists have freedom of speech im suddenly an enabler like a mother giving her son drug money.

Wake up dude, far-right ideologies have no power in America and never will again. Do you see these fucking people showing up for nazi rallies? do you see them?

And before you scream ''oh yeah well TRUMP is in office, thats far-right holding power!'' Yeah the mother fucker has all three branches of government and still cant pass a single god damned piece of legislature without forcing it through by exec action and even those are getting rightly challenged by our court system.

You and all the others who think actual far right people KKK, neo-nazis, ect will ever have power or influence in our society again are delusional.
>>
Eliza Handlelick - Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:17:39 EST ID:8JfrPOud No.397204 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397202
they're not in power because of the continuous effort to push them down, retard. that includes the current democratic obstruction/public push back against trump.
>>
Wesley Pittham - Wed, 20 Sep 2017 16:05:42 EST ID:Kn19Eg9q No.397206 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>397204
give me a fucking break dude. ''Continuous effort'' LMAO as if recent antifa/lib protests have any influence to the power actual racist groups hold. Which is none. The same as its been for over 30 years. Go turn over a trash can and bash the fash man. Do you
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Thomas Clayfield - Wed, 20 Sep 2017 18:53:04 EST ID:qIUC5SK3 No.397211 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Ishay Landa's The Apprentice's Sorcerer is a pretty thorough exploration of the historical roots of fascism in classical liberal ideology.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yn15fvn5dnz8zry/landa_apprentice-1.pdf

Its always interesting when people act as though the Nazis were comparable to Marxian socialists given that "national socialism" explicitly referred to a mythical ideal of class collaborationism and the idea that "work makes one free," rather than class struggle as a means to end the contradictions of class society. There's also this ahistorical idea that the Nazis were all about state control of industry, and that their class base was the working class itself, when in fact the most important German industrialists were Hitler's strongest supporters alongside the petit bourgeoisie. This also applied internationally, given that many foreign capitalists, aristocrats, and liberal democratic leaders viewed Nazi Germany favorably. Hitler was, contrary to the received wisdom, a staunch proponent of private ownership of productive property, but like most wartime nations (including liberal capitalist democracies) found it advantageous to put key wartime industries under direct or indirect state control. And despite all the self-righteous denunciations of the infamous "Hitler-Stalin Pact," England and France in fact repeatedly rejected Soviet overtures for an anti-German alliance, up until the invasion of Poland forced their hand.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html

Anyway, yeah, it's essentially accurate. The fascists explicitly took great inspiration from the imperial plunder of the Global South, and expressed their admiration for the US' genocidal colonization of the American west and England's starvation of India and Africa. The original "scientific racists" were liberal whigs. But in the end all of this doesn't matter because of course they opportunistically put "socialist" in the name of their party. Then again, by that logic the West supported theocratic tyrants against the "democratic republican" leaders of Afghanistan following the Saur Revolution. Pretty fucked up that they'd betray their ideals like that.


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