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How to broach the topic of basic income with Americans by Emma Dinningway - Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:02:46 EST ID:D3IZqUk/ No.398589 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Just call it a tithe. Have everyone pay in 10% of their income and have the total amount collected be split by the number of adult American citizens and be distributed evenly to each citizen. Since the top 10% have 75% of the money and the bottom 50% have 1% of the money, if you take 10% of their income it's going to fund this setup so that most people are getting back more than they pay in so everyone will love it. Since the percentages and amounts everyone pays in and receives are the same, everyone will think it's fair and since it's in the bible everyone will love it.

Explain to the republicans that you don't have to declare people incapable of working in order to have them get this money so it will not discourage them from working and it will give them the capital they need to make business investments for themselves and help increase self sufficiency. It will also cut out government waste since there are no agencies staffed by people who don't care and do a bad job taking large pay cuts for making the process harder and more annoying for everyone. If you just cut everyone a check, everyone is free to make their own decisions for how to spend it. This is something that will give people opportunities in life and help in case they fall on hard times immediately when they need it without having to jump through hoops to get it.
Fucking Dartford - Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:20:54 EST ID:HXgdbKNP No.398590 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Even though it would benefit nearly every person in the US, it will NEVER happen because 9 out 10 Americans are bottom the barrel, rock fuckin stupid political illiterates.
Eugene Nollyfuck - Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:02:04 EST ID:NU4kDAu+ No.398595 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The problem with universal income is that it does nothing to address poverty and class structure.

If you're on the poor your money doesn't have equal value, you're more likely to exploited and even something as simple as buying in bulk is out of your reach.

Food and housing just need to be a basic human right.
Molly Gunningdock - Sat, 11 Nov 2017 21:04:25 EST ID:KiRExxDZ No.398596 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It all looks great on paper but if anyone is not gonna love it its big businesses who are gonna convince conservatives "free money for people who dont deserve it, lazy hippies, progressive coastal liberals hurr durr, big government, disincentivisation".
Sorry but good ideas dont change policy, power does. Maybe itll be considered credible after another great depression and a new new deal and china is actually the global hegemon. Maybe.
Hedda Mendlelut - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:46:20 EST ID:FZwyp5B6 No.398599 Report Quick Reply

Not even. It's more along the lines of big business telling the GOP to do their bidding or kiss those fat donations they get goodbye. If the tax deal fails, expect a lot more GOP goons to drop out of office and a lot of their funding to suddenly dry up.

That's the price of doing business with devils. You sell your soul and in the end, you get everything stripped away.
the flicker !FwnV7hV52I - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 02:30:28 EST ID:QiGBcKwL No.398601 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The US should continue waging neocolonial wars, it should continue crushing the independence of any country that resists integration into the global market, it should continue to be the most vicious and powerful enemy of the global working class that has ever existed — but among its citizens it should divy up the imperial plunder a little more equally.
Hedda Mendlelut - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 02:59:48 EST ID:FZwyp5B6 No.398602 Report Quick Reply

Aside from being completely idiotic; That will never happen. The plunder goes to those who don't need it and forcefully taken from the cold, dead hands of those who do.
Fucking Lightcocke - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:30:38 EST ID:D3IZqUk/ No.398603 Ignore Report Quick Reply
No, it might happen if the economy needs more consumer spending for the rich to keep playing their games. They might be persuaded to believe it's a good thing because it will give people money to buy what they're selling. If you make it known that this will allow competent business owners to increase their wealth even more and only incompetent business owners will lose, you can make supporting the issue a matter of ego and pride. They will want to look like a winner so they will support it because to fight it would be to admit that you're scared you won't be able to compete if consumers have more money.
Hedda Mendlelut - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:15:06 EST ID:FZwyp5B6 No.398604 Report Quick Reply

I'm not going to bother explaining how wrong your idea is, simply from a psychological standpoint. But I don't blame you. You're probably young, incredibly naive and haven't had the harsh realities of the world savagely beaten into you.

Don't worry. You'll learn.
James Mittingshaw - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 06:14:27 EST ID:5IdieRNJ No.398605 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That was shittiest cop out I've ever seen. You might as well have said "I'm too busy to prove you wrong"
Hedda Mendlelut - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:02:51 EST ID:FZwyp5B6 No.398606 Report Quick Reply

Look, I can't help it if they think people are so easily persuaded so as to reject their core, ingrained (and often inbred) beliefs. Trying to explain to them that the people with all the wealth and power see those without as vermin squirming at their feet and stinking up the place is more effort than it's worth.

Yes, it's a cop out. If you'd like to explain it then go on ahead. Explain the difference in perception of reality between those who are wealthy and well-connected and those without.
Cedric Nickleshit - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 10:43:15 EST ID:Jiqlms20 No.398607 Ignore Report Quick Reply
If you think people are so easily persuaded that’s even more reason to not do these bullshit cop outs.
Hedda Mendlelut - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 12:45:50 EST ID:FZwyp5B6 No.398608 Report Quick Reply

That is the opposite of what I said. Read again.
Albert Fanhood - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:56:23 EST ID:fCix33ZT No.398609 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>i'm not articulate enough to put together a cogent argument so here's a bunch of ad-homs instead.
you've lost the debate here. all these posts show are that you're not as smart as those you're responding to.
lumpen !rGOAfuB3jA - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:40:13 EST ID:F1D167dV No.398610 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The vast majority of wealth held by the hautes isn't represented in their incomes though. Their wealth is concentrated in their means to produce. And that's what you have to seize from them. For instance we don't need farmers, we just need their land. We can just import Mexicans and distribute the land to them. Same for manufacturing, executives are useless. It's the technicians, assemblers, etc that keep production moving. Hautes are parasitic, you don't lose anything by disappearing them.

Basic income is just capitalist apologetics tbh.
James Mittingshaw - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:23:53 EST ID:5IdieRNJ No.398611 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Oh look, a tankie treating people like they are machine parts. What the fuck else is new?
lumpen !rGOAfuB3jA - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:04:23 EST ID:F1D167dV No.398614 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Fuck off with that 4shill tankie shit. The Stalinists have been dead for decades. It's just a slur reactionaries throw out when can't argue against the truths of historical materialism.
Nigel Brucklegold - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:51:36 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.398615 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I agree that UBI doesn't directly address the problems that cause poverty in the first place, but it'll certainly be a step in the right direction. You don't do the common man any favors by stating that UBI is just apologetic for capitalism.

Little known fact. Shortly before MLK Jr. died, he was rallying in support for a universal income. He believed that it would have taken many in the black community out of poverty.
Nigel Brucklegold - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:57:12 EST ID:ocfgTAf6 No.398616 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In the same way, the right-wing policy that is Obamacare doesn't address the problems of the US Healthcare system; That being our system is based on a for-profit system, and running healthcare in this way doesn't work. However, it has improved the system some by expanding the number of people that are insured.

The only way to solve our healthcare system is to move to a single-payer. Obamacare is a step closer rather than further to that goal, and we should support anything that helps get us there.

Apply the same for UBI.
Caroline Dreshchut - Sun, 12 Nov 2017 20:49:14 EST ID:5IdieRNJ No.398618 Ignore Report Quick Reply
aww, sad you can't have uncle joe throw me in the Gulags you genocidal loving sack of shit?
the flicker !FwnV7hV52I - Mon, 13 Nov 2017 04:10:40 EST ID:QiGBcKwL No.398624 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The "common man" is a Bengali woman sewing your underwear for 30c an hour, Congolese children mining cobalt at gunpoint, etc. The surplus value they generate is funneled to the imperial core, and it is just this accumulated wealth that universal Yankee income would redistribute.
Dr. King was correct in observing that such an arrangement would lift huge swathes of the Black nation out of lumpenhood, which is why I believe capital would never make such a drastic strategic concession unless the settler state was in existential danger.
Nicholas Poshlit - Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:38:45 EST ID:D3IZqUk/ No.398625 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It addresses one of the problems which is that economic calamity can befall a community much the same way a natural disaster would. Local economies have always been closely dependent upon the land they live on for natural resources which they can turn into wealth. When the nature of the global economy changes and certain industries are no longer profitable, for no fault of the people living in one location their lives can suddenly get much worse and yet our society shames them into silence by calling them lazy and beggars and blaming them for their fate.

What the hell happened to blaming fate for fate? Unfortunate just means you're not fortunate, AKA you're unlucky. Yes, competency plays a big role too, but that doesn't mean it's the only factor and that society is perfectly fair and rewards people based on merit. That is a damn dirty lie that the leaders of this pyramid scheme tell people to get shame to work in their advantage. Everyone shames the losers and worship the winners but that's fucked up man. That's literally a product of brainwashing mind control, which is not science fiction btw, it's a mult-trillion dollar industry that uses advanced science including actively brain imaging and focus groups and advanced and highly stratified statistical sampling. They track everything you do online, they listen to the words you say and read the words you write and they control the things you see and hear specifically tailored to suit you.

I would love to see FEMA take a more active role in treating economic calamity. I would like to see them roll into local communities and work with the local community leaders and people there to make communities fully self sufficient with all the businesses they would ever need producing and selling all the things they would ever need without the need for much shipments from outside. When you rely on the global economy, if the global economy changes, you're left suckling on a teet that won't give any more milk. There's no reason advanced technology and vast wealth can't be applied to make communities self sufficient again. UBI is just a stop gap measure for much larger economic and social change that needs to happen.
Nicholas Poshlit - Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:52:17 EST ID:D3IZqUk/ No.398626 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Oh btw, before any of this happens, we need real campaign finance and election reform in general, hopefully lobbying reform too. We need a constitutional amendment which means we need a 2 part pledge. One for voters/constituents and one for elected officials/candidates. The one for voters would read basically, I pledge never to vote for a candidate who hasn't taken the pledge. The politicians pledge would be a binding agreement to support an actionable legislative change to the way campaign finance is done, the way elections are handled and secured and the way lobbying is handled. Maybe not all those things, but at least the first one and hopefully also the second one to get rid of first past the post voting and possibly some other helpful reforms like changes to laws on political advertising during the run up to elections. We could just give every eligible voter 50 "donor dollars" which are the only legal tender that can be spent in the election by anyone. Anyone who wants to run ads would have to get donor dollars to pay for any and every part of that process. The campaigns would be the main beneficiaries naturally which would stop outside shadow groups from controlling people's minds with billions of dollars of advertising. We have campaign websites now. Let's make that the primary place people go to access information about candidates, not TV or radio or twitter.
Graham Chandleridge - Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:38:19 EST ID:NmweLP+h No.398628 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>yet our society shames them into silence by calling them lazy and beggars
People getting money without doing menial labor for it?! I wish there would be the same outrage over the imminent repealing the estate tax. Lazy rich fucks...
Molly Bussleridge - Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:26:30 EST ID:HE2yFY7p No.398632 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Best argument I can think of is that it would make some types of labor unions obsolete. Basic income means (for healthy, rational people) a basic level of savings, so you aren't wiped out if you quit, strike or even change careers. All Republicans hate all unions apparently, and nobody wants to pay fucking dues for a union that doesn't do anything for them when we have that level of power.

What else? It would probably increase entrepreneurship a great deal, since there would be less involved in bankruptcy. Also, household investing would explode and in general, consumers would be buying more and fancier shit, distributed more evenly across the calendar.

Another big one is the effect it would have on the public health. It would pretty much improve every aspect of health care overnight. Less likely for households to be wiped out from a health crisis or disaster, more competition in the market, fewer crazy homeless people in public to deal with, basically zero sane/sober homeless people.

Personal favorite reason: probably a big reduction in gigantic diabetic fat people, since they aren't raised eating EBT food desert shit. I once lived in a densely populated suburb surrounded by the fattest people you could ever imagine and I can say that is a huge part why so many Americans have gigantic fat asses. Broke families will always buy the absolute cheapest food available, which is pretty much always the worst for you at the corner store.
Augustus Pabblestock - Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:09:52 EST ID:rSCOCuPW No.398633 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>All Republicans hate all unions apparently, and nobody wants to pay fucking dues for a union that doesn't do anything for them when we have that level of power.
>It would probably increase entrepreneurship a great deal
>It would pretty much improve every aspect of health care overnight.
For all this to happen, we still need to decouple health insurance from full time employment. Health insurance is the reason people work shitty jobs for as long as they do & is a huge bargaining chip for union negotiations.
Molly Bussleridge - Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:30:52 EST ID:HE2yFY7p No.398634 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Figure out how to sell it then.
Jesus was a well known practitioner of free healthcare or something... idk

IMO, there is just some critical mass of people traveling to public care and single payer countries that we will eventually reach and then it will happen in the US. I've never met a single American who had anything bad to say about the UK's system, no matter how conservative. Rich Englishmen bitch a lot about it until they come here.

Thanks for reminding me I lose my insurance next month. Fuck.
lumpen !rGOAfuB3jA - Tue, 14 Nov 2017 23:15:40 EST ID:hEFIx0MO No.398637 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Even if Trump's tax bill doesn't crash in the Senate the estate tax will be brought back as soon as dems take back control which will likely be 2020. Dems will run on a platform of disassembling Trump's legislation and taxes will be near top of the list.

What's funny is they might not even get tax reform through at this point. Senate gop seems adamant about keeping the individual mandate repeal in the bill. Once the number crunching is done and news outlets start reporting what a repeal is actually going to do to people's premiums, gop senators with a high volume of middle class constituents will find it hard to vote repeal.
Matilda Wablingmare - Wed, 15 Nov 2017 09:19:51 EST ID:RN7zVAgz No.398644 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I wholeheartedly support the measures suggested in this thread. Seriously. As a non-American, this would give rise to an unprecedented rise in r&d in China and Europe as the brain-drain dumps the US back into the stone-age.
Lillian Messlehood - Fri, 17 Nov 2017 00:16:55 EST ID:l0jUbEaV No.398651 Ignore Report Quick Reply

lol, what? if a universal basic income were provided to the citizenry their education and skill levels would rise in direct relationship. it would be more of a brain magnet than a drain. centers of learning would flourish.
James Clushshit - Sun, 26 Nov 2017 21:23:39 EST ID:Nla6yjir No.398741 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm calling bullshit. UBI will just make the populace even more fat and lazy. The video-game obsessed millienials will have less need for money and therefore more desire to waste their days away doing nothing constructive. That's for the short term, at least. For the long term, all of this UBI crap will ultimately cause the system to collapse and we'll all be eating that shit sandwich that we made.

This idea of UBI was invented as a way to convince the United States to kickoff it's own destruction. Luckily the voters aren't that stupid.
Henry Lightlock - Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:12:30 EST ID:k1T4yVqN No.398746 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Dems will run on a platform of disassembling Trump's legislation and taxes will be near top of the list.
Which is convenient for them because it means they just have to take things back to the old status quo and claim success. Undoing Trump gives enough of the illusion of progress while not actually going far enough to make the donors mad.

Trump may end up being a godsend to lazy corporate Democrats by lowering the bar for what could be considered the bare minimum.
Henry Saffingchire - Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:18:26 EST ID:HpJPm84P No.398761 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The only groups that worked less in pilots in Canada were new mothers and teens who had to support their family. How much exactly do you think a basic income covers? It's a "basic" income, in that it covers basic expenses - usually just enough to keep you out of poverty. If you want to play videogames, you're going to have to supplement it.

What you're describing happens under the current welfare system already. Long term, it could pay for itself - according to economist professor Charles M.A. Clark, the US could do it with a 9% effective tax increase, as an example.
Jenny Lightson - Tue, 28 Nov 2017 15:47:39 EST ID:lWCcanUv No.398775 Ignore Report Quick Reply
how does UBI cause brain drain?

i hope the logic isn't along the lines of:
UBI -> higher taxes -> rich people fleeing en masse, rich people = smart people/STEM types -> brain drain

because that would be retarded.
David Puffingtare - Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:31:12 EST ID:l0jUbEaV No.398776 Ignore Report Quick Reply

that's an interesting made up idea you have, unfortunately experts and data do not support your hypothesis
Rebecca Fassleman - Sat, 02 Dec 2017 14:25:10 EST ID:vRgyEasa No.398808 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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The best way I've found to get Americans on board with UBI is suggest that every UBI recipient would be sterilized. Okay, that's not UBI, but the main concern most normalfags have is people having kids and leeching off the state. If you take away the BI recipients' ability to reproduce, it not only solves a practical problem, it soothes the anger that comes from their Puritan mindset. Furthermore, most people who think UBI is a good idea also aren't terribly interested in having kids anyway.

It seems like a win-win, but the biggest opponents to this idea tend to be the UBI proponents who (stupidly) try to associate our movement with communism. It's terrible branding.
Edwin Gondlefuck - Sat, 02 Dec 2017 15:55:54 EST ID:pKKInIdk No.398811 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's a lose-lose actually. Not only are you giving away a ton of money (which I don't necessarily disagree with), but you also keep them from doing some of the most important unpaid work: raising the future workforce. If you want to wreck your nation's economy, this is the way to do it.
Betsy Sunnershaw - Sat, 02 Dec 2017 18:31:50 EST ID:BCqJyOY8 No.398814 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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This is only a concern if you assume that a human workforce of a comparable size to our current one will be necessary for the function of society in the future. This is not a safe assumption to make.
Shit Wivinglad - Sat, 02 Dec 2017 21:07:31 EST ID:l0jUbEaV No.398815 Ignore Report Quick Reply

i dont think you realize just how many potential educators are turned away from the field due to piss-poor pay. particularly at the pre-collegiate level. if they could have their subsistence needs met by UBI and then supplement this with teaching income i am sure we would witness a rise in quality and quantity of educators

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