420chan now has a web-based IRC client available, right here
Leave these fields empty (spam trap):
Name
You can leave this blank to post anonymously, or you can create a Tripcode by using the float Name#Password
Comment
[*]Italic Text[/*]
[**]Bold Text[/**]
[~]Taimapedia Article[/~]
[%]Spoiler Text[/%]
>Highlight/Quote Text
[pre]Preformatted & Monospace text[/pre]
1. Numbered lists become ordered lists
* Bulleted lists become unordered lists
File

Sandwich


Community Updates

420chan now supports HTTPS! If you find any issues, you may report them in this thread
Compassion by Alice Pimmledale - Wed, 29 Nov 2017 19:54:41 EST ID:f7VKYGuq No.208552 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1512003281885.jpg -(157533B / 153.84KB, 780x800) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 157533
Rejecting any and all forms of transgenderism is an act of compassion.

If a person announces they are going to kill themselves, the compassionate action is NOT to allow them to continue. The compassionate action is to prevent them and help them no longer humor that idea. The same for trans individuals. Hormones are a direct assault on one's genetics. That is a slow form a suicide.
Mental illness is to be treated and compassionately guided.
>>
Charles Tillingwill - Wed, 29 Nov 2017 20:53:23 EST ID:1kfT+DW9 No.208553 Ignore Report Quick Reply
You know what usually happens to trans people who they aren't allowed to transition? They kill themselves.

Get fucked.
>>
Alice Pimmledale - Wed, 29 Nov 2017 22:19:49 EST ID:f7VKYGuq No.208554 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1512011989885.jpg -(94399B / 92.19KB, 960x696) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>208553
Factually incorrect.

Transgenderism is more often than not a scapegoat for depression. 84% of those that transition end up transitioning back to their birth-gender. Our society is enabling an illness that should be treated and over-come. Saying 'It's who they are' is allowing them to slip deeper down the slope of depression. How much do you know about Transgenderism?
Do you know that Men who transition must twice a day 're-open' their 'vagina' wound so that it does not heal over? In what world is that considered healthy?
>>
George Chanderwell - Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:30:48 EST ID:HpcBEgjP No.208555 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208552
Why should transgenderism be treated in a manner analogous to suicide? Why are hormones an assault on one's genetics? Why do you think it's a slow form of suicide? Why do you think it's a mental illness?

Asserting things don't make them true. You might try making a rational argument and giving evidence for your beliefs.

I was suicidal a long time ago, and humoring the idea was an important step in my recovery. At first, I got through each day by saying "I can kill myself tomorrow". It allowed me to ignore the medium and long term concerns that made me depressed, I could focus on my immediate needs. Then, it became a safety net giving me confidence to try things, thinking "I can kill myself if this turns into a shitfest". I wasn't joking either, I owned a .357 Magnum and carried it with me for that purpose. Fortunately, I found I could cope on a day-to-day basis, then I became confident enough that I could handle the next week, the next month, and so on until I barely even thought about killing myself anymore.

My point is that you're full of shit and know nothing about psychological treatment. You're not helping anyone by shitposting about their problems. I suspect that's all you're here for, though.
>>
Esther Sesslebury - Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:43:15 EST ID:58/sdkIQ No.208556 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208554

>>Transgenderism is more often than not a scapegoat for depression
Factually incorrect. That's like saying that the fact they are on death row is a scapegoat for the depression death row inmates feel. Everything else you're saying is trolling hogwash with no evidence and can be discarded by simply saying 'wrong.' Maybe people who make declarations about what other people should and shouldn't be allowed to do are the ones who should NOT be allowed to continue, did you ever think of that? It's a slow form of social suicide, and believing you can order people around like that is indeed a mental illness that should be treated with compassion.
So, please, friend, turn away from the bigotry and hate you are embracing. It's the only way you can stop being plagued by negative emotions when you observe other people living their lives, and the way to free yourself from compulsive shitposting behavior. Alternatively, you can get fucked, there's already one worthless trans hate bait thread on the front page, which your drivel isn't even as intelligent as. You aren't even a good moronic troll.
>>
Molly Blerrydark - Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:24:56 EST ID:8gq7GAVV No.208557 Ignore Report Quick Reply
What does this have to do with philosophy or social sciences?

This is just some fucking the future circlejerk Cripplechan immigrant standing on a soapbox shouting "I HATE FAGS BECAUSE DICKS MAKE MY PEEPEE HARD!"
>>
Emma Huvingkun - Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:57:17 EST ID:KVMLOWd9 No.208559 Ignore Report Quick Reply
What makes you think you know what's best for anyone besides yourself, op? Are you them? Have you gone through what they have? Are you a scientist or a doctor who works with transgendered people?

I think you're oversimplifying this as a way to justify your confusion about the subject and then trivialize it.
>>
Simon Blovingbick - Fri, 15 Dec 2017 19:44:39 EST ID:t3P68jOA No.208566 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Being myself rather mistrustful of people and what they do to other people, i have had the same doubts as OP. However I am convinced that people really are born in the wrong body, that there is something which is gendered in the brain. Because everyone knows that if they were forced to behave as the opposite gender, they would kill themselves. It's far more than a question of mere preferences.

However, that is exactly the reason I worry about boys being confused and then mistakenly diagnosed as transgendered. But people for some reason react with hostility towards this fear of mine and so all I can do is take solace in knowing that at least boys in girl bodies have a chance to get corrected. For some reason, when it comes to girls in boy bodies, I can only sympathize via comparing it to a boy in a girl body. It's really quite strange.
>>
Hannah Grimson - Fri, 15 Dec 2017 20:22:32 EST ID:4+oWREai No.208567 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208552
This thread can end with one simple question.

>Mental illness

Is it a mental illness? What does international psychiatric associations have to say about it. Do the experts define it as a mental illness? What course of action do experts recommend for these ones with transgenderism?

The conversation rests entirely on this. Everything else is a what if scenario. Either that, or we get into conspiracy theory territory, and no one really takes that seriously.
>>
Ian Gogglechudge - Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:56:25 EST ID:eRDq/7qa No.208569 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208567
you realise that designating something a mental illness is kind of arbitrary?
>>
Clara Drummerbad - Sat, 23 Dec 2017 22:31:57 EST ID:8gq7GAVV No.208570 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208569
>muh psychiatry doesn't exist
>muh creationism is a viable alternative to evolution
>muh flat earth
Fuck off luddite cancer, kill yourself. End your existence, you pathetic waste of flesh.
>>
David Durryfuck - Mon, 25 Dec 2017 13:42:26 EST ID:4+oWREai No.208573 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208569
Not at all. And if true, it's better than not using the extent of our academic tools to learn about human behavior. What else would you use? Might as well call it magic and call it a day. Some of the greatest minds in human behavior and the study of the human brain get together to tackle exceptionally convoluted problems. You're just being incredulous.
>>
David Durryfuck - Mon, 25 Dec 2017 13:47:35 EST ID:4+oWREai No.208574 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208569
And if it was arbitrary, so are people calling transgenderism a mental disorder. That goes out the window once you deny the existence of the objectivity of mental illness.

ADD is the most studied mental disorder; More than any other mental illness. That's including: Dementia, Schizophrenia, Bipolar disorder, depression, autism, etc. It's also passed down genetically with a high rate. If your child has ADD, chances are that you have ADD and never known it, and vice versa.
>>
Wesley Congernig - Thu, 28 Dec 2017 01:57:30 EST ID:JL+Vu9Py No.208575 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208567
This.

What constitutes "mental illness" mostly seem to be diseases with primarily psychiatric symptoms, where the only treatment is also symptomatic, usually because of a poor understanding of underlying causes.

"Depression" is a symptom of a shitload of well-documented diseases, none of which are considered mental illnesses, as well as a common language term for very low spirits, and a "disease" in and of itself with unknown cause, which as far as we know could be caused by an undiscovered virus, a protein synthesis abnormality, etc. etc.

It's a bit rich to suggest that a condition with psychological manifestations should not be treated in the only way we know how to treat it, because of... I don't even know what you mean by "assault on ones genetics". Is it assault on ones genetics to treat heritable autoimmune disorders? Where do you draw the line?

I don't personally have a horse in this race, but if you are compassionate and want to help you'd do well to leave your ideas in the oven for a few more hours.
>>
Hannah Suzzleladge - Sat, 30 Dec 2017 22:10:44 EST ID:ieWqoSun No.208578 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Everyone ITT beating their chest about what psychology is and isn't viz. the definition of 'mental illness' clearly knows dick about psychology. If you did, you would know that the most fundamental aspect of the definition of a mental illness is that it is a mental condition that either impairs the individual's functioning in society, or they themselves wish to be different.

So, by definition being transgender isn't a mental illness (it's important to note that even when it was listed as such in the DSM, the criteria for it were in contradiction with the above, which was still the fundamental theory, which was why that idea was thrown out in the latest edition as being inconsistent.) Having gender dysphoria is a mental illness --
because it is a psychological state which the patient wishes were different (and may additionally hamper social functioning.) Thus the recommended treatment is to transition -- this is considered an evidence based therapy because statistically, this decreases both the amount of subjective dysphoria and social impairment.

Thus, by strict psychiatric definitions, being transgender is a treatment, the opposite of a disease. Rekt, people-talking-about-psychology-with-absolutely-no-knowledge-of-it.
>>
Cedric Cruddleham - Sun, 31 Dec 2017 23:53:31 EST ID:4+oWREai No.208585 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208578
We already knew, but thanks for being more detailed for those that don't get it.

The point raised earlier was that, even if it were a mental disorder, as in the case for gender dysphoria, the mode of treatment still recommends that they transition. By all points of contention made by OP, he is wrong. That was the original point being driven across.

That doesn't take into account that not everyone transgenered suffers dysphoria.
>>
Nicholas Murddale - Fri, 05 Jan 2018 15:50:22 EST ID:7NjO80n6 No.208586 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208578

But with that logic, if someones wants to be king of the world, wouldn't the recommended treatment be that we make him king of the world? Why is that that in this case we try to dissuade him from what he wants? Is it because it's less logical than wanting to be another gender, or because it's just more inconvenient than giving chemicals and an operation to a single individual? Seems to me like the desired end result is for the patient to just shut up. It's just that they try to achieve that by the most economical/socially acceptable means.
>>
James Sonnershit - Fri, 05 Jan 2018 23:36:46 EST ID:8gq7GAVV No.208587 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208586
Wanting to be a king isn't a mental illness you fucking retarded cocksucking piece of smegma eating creationist cancer the future immigrant shit. Fuck off. We don't want your fucking kind here.
>>
Ebenezer Dunningmurk - Sat, 06 Jan 2018 03:54:25 EST ID:7NjO80n6 No.208588 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208587

Convinced to already be king is what I meant. Thanks for pointing it out, irrationally angry flat-earth hating oddball.
>>
John Cremmerville - Sat, 06 Jan 2018 19:19:05 EST ID:8gq7GAVV No.208589 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208588
It doesn't matter you fucking the future immigrant. Your analogue makes no sense and is a prime example why laymen should stay the fuck away from academic subjects.
>>
Nathaniel Wimmlelat - Tue, 09 Jan 2018 14:07:29 EST ID:ZS66X4xy No.208595 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208588
It's really simple, it's so simple that you can't comprehend it because you're looking for a complex solution.

Being a king is a real thing. It means you have a royal bloodline, subject, lordship over your realms, etc. Because of the depth of involvement with being king, the thought that you are king with none of that other stuff represents a deep gulf between your internal reality, external reality, and the reality of those around you. This is because being king is a distinct thing with lots of very meaningful external features.

However, the very basic definition of what it means to be a gender is 'the way in which people treat you and you wish to be treated.' That's it, that's the most fundamental origin of the term and concept for gender as far back as you want to look historically. If you want to be treated one way, and everyone else treats you another way, then there is no gulf between your reality and an external particular -- there is only people who treat you the way you want to be treated, and those who don't.

If we minimally accept the idea that everyone has the right to be treated the way they want, as long as it doesn't violate other's own rights, or at least remove themselves from those who treat them negatively, then the 'problem' is on the people who treat people against the way they wish to be treated. Especially since it is a personal matter, relevant only to that one individual. In order to fulfill their requirement, you just have to treat them the way that feels good for them, which should fall under the basic heading of common human decency and costs you nothing. Fulfilling the requirement of the person believing they are king requires you to hurt whole scads of other people, just for the sake of this one person. Moreover, being king when you're not is not a personal issue, and by definition involves the idea of coercing other people against their will. In short, you're making an unfounded comparison. Believing you are the gender you feel you are is almost necessary under the very concept of what gender means, while being king is a very concrete external reality that has nothing to do with what you feel (unless you're the type who has the capacity to conquer a nation and make yourself king, in which case, more power to you.)

Lastly:
>> the desired end result is for the patient to just shut up
Exactly. When a patient comes into your office and starts talking, it's not about the weather. It's because they have a problem. You do what you can to help them, and usually once you have helped them, they don't have a reason to be talking in your face about that anymore. It's like saying 'all mechanics want to do is do whatever fixes the car fastest and gets the customer out the door' well, what would you expect?:
>>
Emma Chablingnetch - Fri, 12 Jan 2018 13:46:07 EST ID:cuUQCBtm No.208608 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208595

You basically repeated my post in more words. Yes, making someone king would inconvenience more people. That was an absurd proposition meant to illustrate the absurd point that you seem to take seriously, that just because someone says they're convinced they're something, then we fulfill their pretense, as long as it doesn't inconvenience anyone other than themselves.

This is a way of dealing with mental illness that completely ignores cases in which the symptoms have apparently nothing to do with the root cause. Maybe the person believing to be another gender is just uneasy with themselves due to some kind of trauma, and they blame it on their genitals to escape from the trauma, because that's what you do when you have trauma, you point the finger at anything but the truth. If you were able to easily face it, it wouldn't be trauma. Hell, some people would cut their dick off if it meant not having to face it, you get what I mean? And who knows, maybe it works, maybe by becoming transgender and pumping yourself full of hormones forever you have such a radical life experience that you've created a permanent chemically induced buffer to trauma.. But what if you don't? What if one day the root of the unease you had disappears because of some experience and all you're left with is a permanent solution to a problem you thought was permanent but wasn't?

Weren't psychology and psychiatry meant to free yourselves from your past, to give you the means to transcend yourself, rather than making you shut up about your problems?

>It's like saying 'all mechanics want to do is do whatever fixes the car fastest and gets the customer out the door' well, what would you expect?:

Say that a customer goes to the mechanic not because the car isn't working but because there's a flashing red light and they don't know what it's for. I don't know about cars, so let's say it's a sign pointing not to a drastic problem, but to something that will eventually get worse, in a couple months, if you keep ignoring it. The mechanic knows it, the customer knows nothing. In such a situation, the mechanic could easily spout some nonsense to the customer, but repair nothing except the warning red light, so that it doesn't flash anymore. For the customer, problem solved, for the mechanic, they billed for a fix while they actually only shut off a warning sign. And in a couple months, when the real problem presents itself again, the mechanic, if faced with an accusation, can just blame it on something else - it's not like the customer would know any better, anyway. Of course where the analogy breaks down is that this kind of trickery is much easier to discover in the world of cars, because all that you're talking about is visible and tangible..

This is my doubt. Are we fixing these people's problems, or are we just shutting off their flashing lights? And in such a drastic way that if they came back and said it didn't work, they'd lose all credibility. Imagine owning to a fuckup that big, and the repercussions to your reputation (the patient's I mean). At that point "the problem was, I was the wrong gender" remains the true story whether it's real or not. Who would trust you again after that? On that subject, you shut their flashing lights off forever through the means of feared social stigma. I don't think that's what a psychiatrist would mean to happen..
>>
Angus Genderforth - Sat, 13 Jan 2018 08:49:41 EST ID:8gq7GAVV No.208609 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208608
Goddamn it you fucking the future immigrant cunt, if you don't fucking accept you lost the argument fuck off, we don't want your fucking retarded circlejerk cancer here. Fuck off and crawl back to your Trumpian stormfront safespace you fucking cocksucking sissy faggot.
>>
Simon Dindleset - Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:42:12 EST ID:IdF5339U No.208610 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208609

lol wow
>>
Alice Grimville - Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:22:12 EST ID:4+oWREai No.208614 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208609
Be easy on the guy. It seems more likely that he's struggling to understand than being some agitator for the heck of it.
>>
Martha Pocklemat - Fri, 19 Jan 2018 16:02:01 EST ID:Vv1yxGNY No.208615 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>208614
No, I think he's arguing in bad faith, since he just told me my post said the exact opposite of what it was trying to say. He keeps hiding inside ontologically unknowable things like 'well when you heal a trauma what if you're only like, *seeming* to fix the trauma, man?' and so I'm incredulous his argument is serious or in good faith, which is why I stopped answering. This whole thread is garbage though, everyone should die.


Report Post
Reason
Note
Please be descriptive with report notes,
this helps staff resolve issues quicker.