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G933 Giveaway     Discussion Thread
Stirner on labor by Hamilton Grandway - Wed, 02 May 2018 09:41:48 EST ID:EQAAY6X6 No.209163 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Stirner knows literally nothing about labor or laborers. His ideas are juvenile. He thinks laborers are more powerful than businessmen/entrepreneurs. He’s wrong. The two are essentially equal in power, because the one cannot exist without the other. People like Stirner grossly under-estimate the intelligence of the entrepreneur and grossly over-estimate the simplicity of the laborer. I been in labor my entire life; seen tons of guys spend even 25 years straight happily laboring for good pay, because they’re simple and conservative and are much more focused on getting paid and going home to their families than becoming some sort of businessman or critical-thinker. These conservative family-oriented laborers are literally our backbone, and they always require leaders to guide them.
>>
Hamilton Grandway - Wed, 02 May 2018 09:42:49 EST ID:EQAAY6X6 No.209164 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Under-estimate the simplicity of the laborer*
>>
Reuben Hanningman - Wed, 02 May 2018 12:30:01 EST ID:dSEu+vTS No.209165 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Where you see simple people needing the guidance of a compassionate leader, I see the average person getting exploited by those who know specific rules and social rituals to extract every free drop of capital from thousands of workers so that they can themselves live like kings, all under the guise of doing them a favor.

In short, 'I'm a laborer and we actually WANT exploitation by the ownership class' is a very lazy (and cliche) kind of concern trolling.
>>
Martha Clebberworth - Sun, 06 May 2018 06:23:22 EST ID:SGCbMw+u No.209176 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209165
You know what the difference is between you and I, friend?
Unlike you I actually know laborers. And yes, people like myself, employers and entrepreneurs, are very much so doing them all a huge favor by giving them jobs. They’re simple folk, they need leadership and guidance, they need people like me making the big important decisions while they do the labor, because they don’t have the capability to properly make the important decisions. If they did, they wouldn’t be laborers. You, my friend, in no way represent the opinions of laborers nor respect their life choices, clearly.
>>
Fanny Picklock - Sun, 06 May 2018 15:24:29 EST ID:zP+9vJ6Y No.209177 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209163
>>equal in power
I think it doesn't have to be about power, more like mutual benefit. the employer offers the employee economy of scale and consistency, employees offer employers value, like refined skills and shit.
>>
William Tillingwater - Mon, 07 May 2018 17:44:56 EST ID:DVb5cen5 No.209178 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209176
>>Unlike you I actually know laborers.
How can you possibly know who I do and don't know? You don't even know who I am?
>> They’re simple folk, they need leadership and guidance
How can you know that? Maybe they are simply people who weren't given the advantages you have? For all you know they might be a lot better in your position if they had been given the same opportunities as you. You seem to think that 'capability' is the only thing that determines where someone falls within the social order, but that's manifestly false. Social mobility in the west is lower than it has been in centuries.

If, as you claim, your role as 'leader' is purely egalitarian, out of desire to properly guide your laborers who are incapable of guiding themselves, I assume you take a salary equal to your lowest paid worker and redistribute all profits back to the laborers as bonuses or dividends, yes? Otherwise, how are you not stealing part of the value they create and using it to benefit yourself over them?
>>
Nicholas Duckwell - Tue, 08 May 2018 12:28:52 EST ID:/tjfruPD No.209179 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209178
Seems if the general laborer were shown how to use the computer applications and such they would make better decisions concerning what was more efficient and smarter. They have hands-on experience that a manager or supervisor drastically lacks from their perspective almost exclusively in the office looking at numbers. What good work does an owner do? They don't even manage anymore.
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Lydia Drublingfudging - Thu, 10 May 2018 06:04:43 EST ID:K9K8Pnvb No.209194 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209178
>How can you know who I do and don't know?
your replies. If you actually knew the minds of laborers, you'd reply with more wisdom and less assumptions. It's clear to me you're not in touch with laborers, and this is because I've been a blue-collar worker my entire life.

>Maybe they weren't given your advantages?
Life ain't fair. But, mind you, my men are all from Mexico, where their labor would go for peanuts where as working with me some of them earn well over $1500 weekly and they can't even speak English. Do you earn $1500 weekly for your labor?

>You assume capability is the only thing determining social position.
You're deflecting. Nothing we talked about was focused on social positioning. We're talking about the minds of the laborers. Don't change the subject.
>Social mobility in the west is lower than it has been in centuries.
That statement is the literal proof that you have essentially no wisdom on the subject. Lol or do you think that a Mexican who can't speak English earning over $1500 a week is 'a lack of social mobility'? My man's Saul has 4 kids and literally all of them are in/going to college without ever taking out a student loan. And you thought I'd agree with your statement that social mobility is just 'so low'.

>Commie bullshit about my salary and stealing their labor.
You know what you commies don't understand? Not that you're a commie lol, just busting your balls. But seriously, you people don't understand the role of 'manager' and 'owner'.

It's EASY to own a company! All you have to do is take out a significant loan in your name, go into debt, risk your own financial future, create an entire business from the ground up which requires not only knowing your market intimately but also knowing how to create and run a business whether its selling a product or service, and then you have to constantly risk your financial future as you endure the failures you inevitably face while your laborers literally risk nothing and get paid a heft sum to do some of the work you, yourself, put together.

>>209179
Do you know how hard it is to teach a laborer to use technology that isn't a phone?
>What good work does an owner do?
Well, we make decisions that are far above the level of knowlege our laborers have. Or do you ACTUALLY believe that my laborers know how to write legally-binding contracts, make lucrative deals, market successfully, and comply with all necessary paperwork and legal standards?
No, they don't know how to do any of that and they don't want to know. They've got kids and wives/husbands, and that's where their mind is when it's not on labor.
>>
Lydia Drublingfudging - Thu, 10 May 2018 06:08:26 EST ID:K9K8Pnvb No.209195 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Tl;Dr
honestly if you don't have kids or a spouse, or own a home, or have debts form investments such as mortgages, you can't understand how the common laborer thinks, literally.

If you don't have any stake in the game, you will never, ever, understand the game.
>>
Fucking Barringsedging - Thu, 10 May 2018 10:53:33 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209196 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209194
Your entire argument is based on the idea that you know the minds of these people so well you would know what they would think and do even if their life circumstances were totally different. Did you ever stop to think that what you imagine to be their minds is a self serving fantasy that YOUR mind created?

You're also really blustery and vitriolic. Why are you so agitated by the suggestion that your laborers might be just as capable as you and merely have different luck? Is it because that suggestion undermines your entire world view where you are justified in behaving this way? (I think it might!)

>>your replies. If you actually knew the minds of laborers, you'd reply with more wisdom and less assumptions.
It's you who are full of assumptions. You're basically assuming that your individual case applies to all cases and that your perception of the 'goodness' of what you do for your laborers is shared equally by your laborers and all laborers. This is how I know you are full of shit, or either very bad at detecting people lying to your face. Again, you don't know me, or what I have done, you don't know my relation to labor at all, and the fact that you IMMEDIATELY go to an ad hominem route shows me what kind of intellectual level you are at. (read: I can tell you are just as dumb as about 50% of the laborers I know, which is why I know you didn't ascend to your position because you are simply smarter than them.)

>>Life ain't fair
I say you are unfairly advantaging yourself over your workers, and your immediate reply is 'life ain't fair?' So you're saying 'because other people take advantage of my workers, I am also at liberty to take advantage of my workers, but this isn't really taking advantage of them because 'life ain't fair.'' I can't believe you actually have so simplistic a thought process.

>>You're deflecting. Nothing we talked about was focused on social positioning.
It's not deflecting at all mate. Whether or not you end up being a laborer or an owner of the means of production is 100% related to social positioning. Your claim is that everyone who is a laborer is a laborer because they have a mind of a laborer. I claim that's false because social mobility is low (which is apparently a concept you don't understand the meaning of, I will explain after the next yellowtext) most people who are laborers are laborers because their parents were laborers, because they come from regions where labor is the only viable form of work, or were unable to afford the educational opportunities that would move them out of their position and into your position of being an owner. Except for rich people who think going and picking berries in the scorching sun is like a vacation, any sensible laborer should want a desk job over a manual job. So there must be some explanation for how they ended up where they are, and it's not 'they all just want to be laborers so it's ok to do whatever you want to them!'
In short if your argument rests solely on 'I know the minds of laborers and so anything I say is right and what everyone else says is wrong' you aren't really having a philosophical debate, you aren't even forming a cogent argument, you're just reiterating an anecdotal story.

>>Lol or do you think that a Mexican who can't speak English earning over $1500 a week is 'a lack of social mobility'?
Uh, yeah man. Do you know what social mobility is? You seem to think that social mobility means just being able to survive at your current level (he can send his kids to school! What a plutocrat!) it means being able to ascend from one social class to another, and it's a myth that's propagated by capitalist ideologues ever since Horatio Alger, and we can measure for how few people it actually works (spoiler: almost no one can ascend class barriers. That's how the 1% became the one percent, if the bootstraps to big time myth was true they wouldn't remain so.) The fact that you know one dude who did one thing is in no way evidence against massive society wide changes that we can measure statistically. Is all your evidence purely anecdotal?
Ok, think about it this way. Let's say we found all the jerks like you who are employing a bunch of laborers, and wrote down how much money they make. Then we keep checking up on them every couple of decades, we notice how big of raises they have gotten over the years. We average these numbers across how many people we talked to, and compare them to the government defined numbers for different socioeconomic classes. When we do that and find, lo and behold, most people stay in the same economic class their whole life (and for generations) that's what we mean when we say 'low social mobility.' Do you understand now?

>>It's EASY to own a company!
Oh man, this section is rich. You're so full of self-ignorance it is coming out of all the holes in your face.
>>All you have to do is take out a significant loan in your name
Do you think the bank would give you a significant loan if you're a Mexican laborer who no speaka english? Did you ever think that maybe the reason the bank was willing to give you a loan is because you are educated, had some capital to secure the loan with, and...let me guess...are white?
>>risk your own financial future
Which means you had a financial future to risk to begin with. You clearly started from a position of greater advantage than your Mexican laborer. If not, why didn't he just walk into the bank and hire his own buddies? Oh right, because he has 'the mind of a laborer' which somehow isn't a self serving doublespeak for 'everyone assumed he had the mind of a laborer and so that's all he could make a living as.'
>>
Fucking Barringsedging - Thu, 10 May 2018 10:54:12 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209197 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209196
>>create an entire business from the ground up which requires not only knowing your market intimately but also knowing how to create and run a business whether its selling a product or service
And how did you know all that stuff, friend? Were you maybe educated at some kind of institution? Did you maybe have some friends and social networks that were able to clue you in to this information? Can you not see how that kind of social capital directly translates to financial capital, and that you didn't get it because you are somehow better, purer, or smarter, but simply more lucky?
>>then you have to constantly risk your financial future as you endure the failures you inevitably face while your laborers literally risk nothing
Again, how could they risk anything? They have no financial assets, no capital power, in the first place, no capital power. (They of course are risking the lives of their dependent family and themselves by living hand to mouth, dependent on gracious owners like you to let the crumbs fall from their table, but let's ignore that for now.) The very fact that you did have something to risk over them, and could continue to risk things in the ups and downs of owning a business demonstrates that your position as their gentle leader came about not because of your guile and gumption but because you happened to win the social lottery.
>>get paid a heft sum to do some of the work you, yourself, put together.
And you get paid more. You are literally whining about your workers doing the work you assign them to do. I guess in your mind they should work for nothing and you should get all the money because, after all, they have the 'mind of a laborer' and couldn't even if tell you were shafting them, right?

>>Do you know how hard it is to teach a laborer to use technology that isn't a phone?
This is where I think you don't actually know any laborers at all and what you really mean is 'do you know how hard it is to teach an undocumented immigrant who doesn't speak english how to use technology?' A lot of labor today uses very advanced technology. Much of the labor that's done world wide is in the service of creating advanced technology, and I guarantee many of those laborers know intimately how to use technical systems that you would be baffled by at first. Let me try to get this through your skull: you aren't inherently smarter than the people who are lower than you in the social order. We have measured the IQ of people across all classes, and when you correct for socioeconomic factors, it's the same. A laborer has just as high of a chance of being a genius as you (actually, a lot better, cause I would say your chance of being a genius is 0%) and an 1%er, medically speaking, has an equal chance of being a babbling retard as the lowest shudra.
>>believe that my laborers know how to write legally-binding contracts, make lucrative deals, market successfully, and comply with all necessary paperwork and legal standards?
No they don't know how numbnuts. That's the point! But it's not that they don't know because they can't or are some kind of mental defectives. They don't know because they were never taught, because they were never given the social conditions that would have enabled them to learn. That's the difference. You're trying to push this essentialist narrative where you have the right to rule because you are naturally smarter, and that's why you have to do everything to discredit the evidence that your position in the order was created not by your mind and what you think, but by what you already had and who you know.
>>They've got kids and wives/husbands, and that's where their mind is when it's not on labor.
Zuckstallion has a wife and kids, and I bet he thinks about them when he's not working. Are you saying you are some kind of machine with no need or desire for human interaction? Are you saying the fact that laborers have families means they are undeserving of fair treatment? (cause what else could you be saying, really?)

Dude I don't know if you're just a troll or what but you need to step up your game if you actually want to have a debate on these topics like you claimed to in the OP. All this ad hominem shit and endlessly repeating 'I know their minds because I know them so I'm right because I know I'm right' is just fucking useless.
>>
Fucking Woffingmare - Fri, 11 May 2018 18:58:07 EST ID:/tjfruPD No.209206 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209194 >>209196
I think the capability to do managerial tasks and to do general labor is within most people's reach if they have the opportunity to learn. Coworkers point out bad decisions by management amidst comments about their life and their other interests. At my current job there are younger coworkers who are more capable at using technology than the older supervisors and managers, and faster at it. For awhile a fellow coworker was helping with scheduling before he got fired for not being serious enough, and he was better at scheduling than any of the supervisors currently (after he learned how). We got a new manager recently who was hired from outside the company and they've made tons of mistakes concerning scheduling. Because of their inexperience (but better credentials and a degree) they've made it much more difficult for us laborers, who have to work harder because there are fewer people to work the line on a busy day, and by scheduling too many people on slow days they lose money for the company, or keep the place open when we should have closed (or vice-versa).

There's alot of small changes that could be done to improve how things work.. at work, but since the supervisors and managers rarely step in and do the actual work, they're not aware of the potential changes, and often aren't open to input from the laborers who do have the direct experience. No, all they know is what they see when they are around for a short-while, and what the numbers on spreadsheets and pie-charts say. That kind of information could easily be made available to the general worker, many of whom would draw similar or better conclusions about the correct course of actions. Its like abstract theory versus practical action, when instead the process should be reciprocally informing each other, theory informing action and action informing theory. As is there is a division of labor along pretty much class lines when managerial and laborer tasks could be shared.

There's probably a different level of involvement by owners of small-businesses compared to corporations and such. It seems owners of larger-businesses are left to speculation on the stock market and hire someone else to manage the business for them.

With that said, some anecdotal stuff from me here: my family's social mobility is downwards. We went from solid middle class to poor and somewhat getting by. There's one exception, my grandmother came from poverty, wearing broken shoes as a child, and ended her life comfortably in a historical home. We went from my Great Great Grandfather owning a candy store, to influential engineer and advertising positions held by my Grandfather and Grandma, shitty labor jobs held by my Dad (even with a degree) and Uncle, until getting laid off en masse with his coworkers (because their wages were high and alot were about to retire), to all of us "kids" working construction, social work, the service industry, and retail work. Only one of my little sisters makes lots of money in advertising, working at home. She does alot of computer work, networking and analysis, but its really not that intensive, albeit it is time-consuming and she has to be reachable even when she's off work.

Most people I know are worse off financially, not better. Few people are financially secure and many are in debt. Perhaps this is due to a huge increase in cost-of-living in relation to a low increase in wages. So I think Barringsedging has a point about the position you're born into and the capital you have available to be able to start a business, to get a Bachelors or Masters degree. By the time my siblings and I were born my family was unable to afford to put us through college unless we performed well enough to get scholarships, but we made just barely too much to qualify for affordable loans through FAFSA.

Talking about risk, most wealthy owners aren't risking their financial future, they have plenty of cushion to fall back on in case things go wrong. That may not be the case for you Drublingfudging, but it seems you're the exception and not the rule. A laborer living from paycheck to paycheck (or close to it) on the other hand, risks losing their home and many things they own, becoming houseless, if they lose their job. There's no room for taking risks, its survival mode.

Oddly there is a trend of rich people working more hours than poor people. That's due to the job market in which employers have moved away from full-time positions with benefits and incentives to remain a part of that company for a long time (like it was for our grandparents) to part-time and seasonal positions without benefits, so laborers have to get multiple jobs, and have little job security. There's fewer protections for "temporary" workers. The trend was already going this way, but the shift was dramatic right after the Great Recession of '08. It was at this same time that tons of people lost ownership of their homes and now depend on rich landlords (individuals or companies) who are raising rents according to demand and sometimes kicking whole complexes of people out to renovate and raise rent.

This precarious position that many poor people are in right now obviously doesn't encourage innovation and they have significantly more at stake than a rich person. I'm curious where this will lead us as a society as the division of wealth and labor becomes more extreme. Its from leisure that innovation originated.
>>
Walter Peddledudge - Tue, 15 May 2018 17:37:12 EST ID:Q0mLuuoM No.209212 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209163
Op can i see dtudies on how the laborer is literally our backbone. Nb gor shitpost i vould not resist.
>>
Sidney Toothall - Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:07:14 EST ID:t87tpTXY No.209290 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209176
I work with tons of laborers in park systems. Of the dozens of laborers I know, all of them seek out or at least wish for better pay, benefits, and/or promotion. Such sweeping generalizations as yours are bound to unfairly label a group. I'd go on to call you a twat and explain how laughably misguided your arrogant and incoherent views are, but >>209196 already took care of that, so I'll just leave this golden nugget of humor for you to reflect on.

>They’re simple folk, they need leadership and guidance, they need people like me making the big important decisions while they do the labor, because they don’t have the capability to properly make the important decisions. If they did, they wouldn’t be laborers.
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Phoebe Dishcocke - Tue, 12 Jun 2018 23:31:39 EST ID:SGCbMw+u No.209295 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209290
Well, let’s just say it’s quite obvious both of you are not managers and while at least 1 of you are not laborers both of you are far too optimistic about the ‘potential’ capability of the people you’re defending, of which you are not even one of. It must be nice hiding all your ideologies behind countless ‘what if’s, but you know, you’ll make more money investing your thoughts into reality, not ideology, my friend.
>>
Barnaby Nuckleforth - Wed, 13 Jun 2018 14:55:47 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209296 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209295
If you are OP, you have countless arguments to respond to. If you are OP, you once again reiterated the only thing you have said this whole time 'you are wrong because I know the minds of these other people better than you, I am right because what I know of them is right.' Nothing has changed about the state of your inability to defend your own arguments.

If you are not OP, you can't piggyback on his arguments. Make your own claims about why what everyone else is saying in this thread is false, or shut up. Reiterating the same anecdotal justification as OP with no further evidence does not constitute having a discussion and is disruptive.
>>
Simon Dandleman - Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:54:59 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209297 Ignore Report Quick Reply
So I'm going to take that as nolo contendere and try to rehabilitate this dead thread.
Let's analyze why this thread exists. What was the instrumental utility of OP's post; what do you think he was hoping to gain through this argument? In general, do you think people who make arguments against their own class interests are acting because they don't understand class dynamics, or because they really do and are hoping to move from the class of exploited to the exploiters?

Does anyone think there is some solution to get people to re-identify with their class? Basically is there some silver bullet to dismantle the Horatio Alger myth, or is it intractable (in which case we should expect this problem to continually get worse?)
>>
Beatrice Socklefet - Sat, 23 Jun 2018 01:36:21 EST ID:VhdWon+z No.209298 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209163
>They’re simple folk, they need leadership and guidance, they need people like me making the big important decisions while they do the labor, because they don’t have the capability to properly make the important decisions

This is SO on the nose it has to be a joke.

This right here IS the Leftist Impulse. "I know what's best for you"
>>
Fanny Greenlock - Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:02:51 EST ID:jCCQcP9W No.209305 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209298
>leftist impulse

p. sure that's just called authoritarianism and it comes in more than one flavour
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Lillian Pigglewell - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:14:54 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209311 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209298
That's coming from a capitalist perspective though, one of the justifications for the need for management in general, arguing that business owners know best. From the other end there's worker control of the means of production, which is syndicalist political theory. Anti-authoritarian politics then, believes that workers would be plenty capable of making management decisions (with access to all information) and there's really no need for capitalists at all. The system is geared in such a way that it seems there is a need for rich managers to make decisions and for laborers to just do what they're told.
>>
Lillian Pigglewell - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:29:32 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209312 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209297
the latter:
>they really do and are hoping to move from the class of exploited to the exploiters
We see this on television shows that have cash prizes, in the lottery, and by people's idolization of wealthy celebrities. I think there is a slow-going solution that has been practiced, but unfortunately hasn't caught on as much as it coulda shoulda. That is solidarity networks, tenants & transit unions, free stores, regular free food servings, popular neighborhood assemblies, prison solidarity, houseless support, emergency-response networks, Working Class Acupuncture, ... practices like that.

The overall idea is to demonstrate the effectiveness of alternative means of organizing and getting shit done while building infrastructure and social networks (off of social media, in-real-life networks). Each victory won for an individual's grievances by a solidarity network wins over an individual to a more direct approach at problem solving that doesn't rely on the corrupt government and private institutions of our capitalist society. Having a penpal is really important to a prisoner. Someone who cares and sees you as a human being is really important for a houseless person who deals with the apathy of most of the city. The Village Building Convergence is a fun activity that brings people together who otherwise wouldn't, and includes kids too. Every time they pass that place they planted trees, or painted the intersection, or built a cob alcove seating area, there'll be a slight affinity with it and memory of gathering with others to accomplish something practical. Tenants and transit unions are empowering, with enough participants they can pressure the powers that be to change policies that improve their well-being. In Portland one of the tenants unions successfully pushed for 90-day notice instead of 30-day notice for evictions, and later got policy that landlords have to provide some relocation assistance. The transit union hasn't gained much steam, but maybe eventually they'll be able to advocate for the lower class against raising fares, armed security, or reduced frequency of bus service. At the free store you bring what you want to donate and take what you want. It demonstrates another way of exchanging commodities that doesn't use money or bartering. Emergency response networks vary in purpose, it could be people with first-aid or more advanced medical experience who are first-responders, or a neighborhood with a few volunteers who will respond to a threat or medical emergency, or a network prepared for a disaster and ready to respond, help people, and provide material aid (https://mutualaiddisasterreliefsite.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/the-resilient-social-network.pdf), or a non-profit non-hierarchical organization like CAHOOTS that responds to mental health crises (instead of the police or paramedics, who we know often escalate the situation rather than solve it) and are actually a part of the Eugene-Springfield cities' Emergency Medical System (http://www.rosehipmedics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Alt2EMS-Anthology-FINAL-PRINT-VERSION.pdf). Last but not least, Working Class Acupuncture is an example of a non-profit that provides cheap preventative healthcare.

A solidarity network takes on a specific grievance of an individual against an employer or landlord and does a bad publicity campaign. It begins by a bunch of people dramatically delivering a list of demands followed by bad reviews on the internet, phone-jams, picketing, flyering, and boycott. All within the law. Eventually (months later generally) the target capitulates and gives in to the demands. The person with the grievance is required to participate on the solidarity network council which practices horizontal decision-making so they are exposed to libertarian means of organizing.

Another way is the reclamation of public space to utilize as a place of gathering and discussion. I recommend the book The Anarchist Roots of Geography and this essay: Public Space as Emancipation: Meditations on Anarchism, Radical Democracy, Neoliberalism and Violence https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229473623_Public_Space_as_Emancipation_Meditations_on_Anarchism_Radical_Democracy_Neoliberalism_and_Violence

Here's a paper connecting the use of public space with free food via "Food Not Bombs". https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3397&context=open_access_etds FnB is a bit outdated now i think, but there's more popular networks in place (locally here called Free Hot Soup, that has largely lost the activist flavor of FnB, but do the same thing) of people who have connections with small businesses and other places and redistribute to cooks who give it to servers who serve food weekly. There's different groups that do different days and coordinate between each other on social media.

Popular assemblies is a similar idea as solidarity networks, but on the next level, with neighborhood action councils that work on whatever they deem important who gather occasionally with other NACs to coordinate. ROAR mag had an informative issue about popular assemblies: https://roarmag.org/magazine/new-municipal-movements/ and i recommend Portland Assembly's resource section for more info about such: https://portlandassembly.com/resources/lit/

Anyways, all these practical actions and networks focused on specific issues or dangers solidify an idea of being in it together. The houseless probably don't harbor any dreams of making it big, but because of their precarious position in our society, and the fact that more and more people are becoming houseless in a housing market that is increasingly expensive and a job market that is barely increasing wages and moving towards temporary labor, they could use all the support people can give. Its interesting that participants of Free Hot Soup are mostly middle class but share an affinity with houseless folks. Government aid is being rolled back and no doubt more austerity is on the horizon, there really needs to be grassroots systems in place that fill the void. I think people will share more affinity with each other through their similar struggles as conditions continue to deteriorate, but also as these libertarian institutions and networks demonstrate the validity of their existence.
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James Cledgestit - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 22:38:02 EST ID:UJRdOSuh No.209314 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209312
I admire all the anarcho-syndicalism buddy, even if it does come as a bit of a tl;dr at the end of a thread started by some idiot bigot.

However, from my perspective I'm still on the fence about how your tactics really work and what the appeal is or to whom they appeal.
It seems important that there is already a natural community of sorts before any anarchist organisation can take root. In a society where people move alot, are generally leading relatively isolated lives, your tactics have little fertile ground. You need to already have whole (extended) families living in close proximity to one another and in the same sort of employment to get such organising underway.
For people like me, young men who can move cities or countries and will generally think along the lines of "what can and should I do for myself and what's best for myself?" - the point where anarchist organisation becomes a viable option is never reached. What I'm trying to say is there is a huge cultural gap between my lived experience and what youre talking about. I think that gap can only really be breached by long and sustained activism and the creation of the community-infrastructure by anarchist volunteers, activists, squatters and 'vanguards'. And that community of anarchists also needs to grow so it's a very long process. Essentially you are talking about creating an alternative 'ghost' state in the cracks of an existing capitalist state.
To be clear I'm very supportive of anarchism in theory and I don't think there is anything unrealistic in what youre proposing, however when you mention examples like Portland I think there must have been very specific conditions for emerging anarchist organisation in those places. The same has been said of Anarchist Catalonia during the civil war.
It shouldn't be contraversial to state that the mainstream left has lost their appeal because they cannot offer the things you are talking about, they can't offer a good alternative to capitalism, they have become managers themselves rather than liberators. But it's also true that with the development of (globalised, neo-liberal) capitalism social conditions have changed, communities have been destroyed, people are more isolated, the forms of consumption and production have changed too creating new and huge challenges.
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Martin Claybanks - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 02:25:55 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209315 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209314
Thanks for reading my post and taking the time to respond. You have some very interesting insights. Its very much an updated version of dual power, or in your words "an alternative 'ghost' state. The temporary nature of communities that exist for a time then fall apart is certainly a major obstacle to long term networks and meaningful, radical change. Crimethinc had an interesting segment in the book Days of War, Nights of Love. I vaguely recall a campaign to unionize workers at a small college or something that brought alot of different sorts of people together in common cause. After a few minor upheavals and a liberating experience that led to getting their demands met, people moved on, and the connections that were made during that short campaign were lost. That was mid 2000s. So yeah, same problem.

The campaigns themselves form communities. The ability of Occupy Sandy to respond to the hurricane disaster was because of the networks in place right after Occupy.

Perhaps anarchists, or anti-authoritarians in general, shouldn't act in isolated groups separate from the general populace in the first place. If they truly want to act for the interest of those who suffer, they should know what needs to address. If they act for their selves that's cool too, just be honest about it, y'know? Outreach is really important though, to connect to the many communities that do exist, churches, hobby groups, longtime neighbors, and student groups for examples.

Popular assemblies could begin with core groups of dedicated individuals who do outreach to plug more people into the network while also doing practical actions that win small victories to demonstrate the effectiveness of such organizing.

A way around the self-centered thinking of what's best for myself, at least philosophically, is to see actions that benefit other people as also benefiting oneself, or even vice-versa sometimes, if self-improvement leads to greater ability to help others. For example, the tenants union getting city policy changed to require 90-day eviction notice instead of 30-days. That benefits the people who were a part of that campaign, a part of the tenants union, as well as every other renter.

These actions, institutions, and networks are totally going on in the background, but widely unnoticed. I guess that's a problem of outreach again. Although alot of people are constantly moving around from place to place, there's alot of people who remain where they are. The networks could continue on with regular gatherings or practical actions that reaffirm the networks, even though the individuals composed of the networks have changed over time. The Village Building Convergence is a great example of this. This could work if there was public exposure to a network and a simple way of plugging-in for new arrivals or those recently interested. An orientation to that specific cities' dynamic local politics per say.

The ROAR mag article tries to answer the problem of gentrification and moving populations:
>“Gentrification” comes nowhere close to describing the mass internal displacement taking place throughout the US. In San Francisco, a small, modest home costs about $3.5 to 4 million; simple one-bedroom apartments range from $3,500 to $15,000 per month to rent. Beneath the shimmering towers of tech billionaires, tent villages wedge precariously between the concrete pillars of highway underpasses. Meanwhile, the working poor are banished to isolated suburbs, where there is little street life and often no viable public transportation.

>While European movements call for preserving urban residents’ “right to the city,” in the US we are in the position of figuring out how to simply insert ordinary people back within the urban landscape.

>A municipalist agenda would ultimately seek to reclaim urban areas as places where people actually live, not simply go shopping. In rural and suburban contexts, municipalists can offer a vision of decentralization and independence from the state that is void of bigotry and abuse. Rural allegiances to extractive industries can be broken by offering ecological ways of life tied to local, civic decision-making. These are not easy tasks, but they are essential to the holistic social change we so direly need.

Portland is certainly a unique city, but from my travels I noticed that there are similar cities to Portland throughout the States. The municapalist movement of popular assemblies has taken root in Jackson, Mississippi; Olympia & Seattle, Washington; and Burlington, Vermont for examples.

The article's conclusion also recognizes the danger of cooptation by the mangers of the left, as you had put it:
>While radical leftists lay the groundwork of grassroots political engagement, liberal and “progressive” reform organizations like MoveOn and Indivisible are poised to absorb and divert this energy back into party politics.
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Martin Claybanks - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 02:51:34 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209316 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209314
Sucks there's a huge cultural gap. The only way i know how to address that gap is what i've been arguing, practical action & mutual aid basically. Bridging the divide is probably the most important answer to revitalizing a popular radical anti-authoritarian movement instead of as is, as a niche movement.
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Shitting Donningfuck - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 05:38:22 EST ID:3eTL8f4N No.209333 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209316
Cultural gap may not be the most accurate discription. Its about perspective, needs, priorities and the precarious nature of labor at this point. People need the fundamentals which is basically sustainable income. The ghost state cant really offer this, it seems like the project of volunteers and ultimately will be the product of people who have time and energy to volunteer in the first place. I mean, say you lose your job and dont have much hope in finding a new one, you go looking for the jobs that basically anyone can do so at least you can pay rent and sustain yourself, labouring for example or dishwashing. The impulse is not to think, "ok, lets find some vacant land to plant crops, squat a vacant building, go dumpster diving and work together with my local anarchist network"
If you see what im saying... while this ghost state can exist in the margins there must be some territory won from the capitalist state in order for it to offer a viable alternative and not just a voluntary safety net. I think one of the ideals of anarchism should always be to let people be autonomous materially, that is something capitalist states cannot tolerate.
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Caroline Breshhood - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 13:33:44 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209336 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209333
Well said Donningfuck. Its difficult to be involved in these projects with little time on one's hands. I noticed with Free Hot Soup, which is composed of different coordinating groups that serve food three days a week, and occasionally elsewhere, alot of the volunteers have time to participate because either their retired, get social security, or work part-time and are able to meet their needs by living low-cost.

It doesn't help that cost of living has been increasing ridiculously high. For houseless folks one alternative has been self-governing camps, but most of those have been short-lived after being forcefully dispersed by law enforcement.

The support offered by libertarian institutions and networks would have to be accessible, and in some cases it is, if the person knows about it anyway. With the Free Store for example, a big one goes on each month at a church, but people can access the stuff there each week as well. When someone has material needs the networks and institutions are already in place to provide. Maybe the individual barely getting-by can't give their time to volunteer but they can at least utilize the resources.

>I think one of the ideals of anarchism should always be to let people be autonomous materially, that is something capitalist states cannot tolerate.
Totally. That's why there are incidents of law enforcement arresting people for serving free food, dispersing houseless camps, or raiding squats, among other examples.

You'd probably find the history of the 1980s Autonomen movement in Germany, who built social centers and squatted entire neighborhoods, really interesting. Now that the innercity is hip to live in again squatting really isn't a viable option for low-cost living, at least for many people. I'm not sure what territory so-to-speak could be won to make participation in these networks and institutions more viable. There are organizations pushing for higher wages, unionizing in specific businesses, rights to camp in certain areas, and rent caps, so that people in general are better off and not struggling to survive as bad as many are now. I really think people's belief and awareness in the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the "ghost state" is a primary obstacle.

Fire and Flames: History of the German Autonomist Movement
https://libcom.org/files/Fire_and_Flames.pdf
"THE SUBVERSION OF POLITICS:
EUROPEAN AUTONOMOUS MOVEMENTS AND THE DECOLONIZATION OF
EVERYDAY LIFE"
http://www.eroseffect.com/books/subversion/sop_intro.pdf
Art as Resistance: Placats · Paintings· Actions · Texts
from the Initiative Kunst und Kampf (Art and Struggle)
https://uniteyouthdublin.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/art-as-resistance.pdf
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Hedda Pittway - Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:13:35 EST ID:RidPP7/o No.209418 Ignore Report Quick Reply
In my experience managers, employers, and entrepreneurs are the most deluded dumb ass children I've ever met. They consistently have no knowledge of the systems they own and profit from and so can only reason why they are on top is due to some nebulous character trait that often correlates with their childish nature.

My last CEO got in front of the entire company and literally congratulated himself for "having his head in the clouds". A friend's ex-employer asked if a 2 foot hole in a load bearing wall of a cooler holding product could be "painted over". These were both very successful businesses that were out competing and acquiring other companies despite their owners ignorance. Most if not all privately held companies would operate better if owners heads were removed.

Employers do nothing but demand a meter of how much profit they are making and cry when it's not high enough; leaving employees to figure out how to actually make that happen. When profit is high they feed their delusion lest they realize they injustice of their position.
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Hedda Middlestone - Mon, 20 Aug 2018 21:49:56 EST ID:HEpzpYWB No.209430 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209163
Rofl, slaves cant exist without their masters, sick observation op.
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Cornelius Blackville - Mon, 17 Sep 2018 13:53:39 EST ID:P7YKYyI5 No.209452 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Stirner is bad, Anarchy is bad, read Bordiga you leftoid peasants.
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Beatrice Gavingdadge - Sun, 23 Sep 2018 01:35:06 EST ID:KGYHppHw No.209453 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209452 What's bad about Stirner and while you're at it (please), what's so special about Bordiga eh?


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