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Rape is an equivalent crime to adultery by George Brepperdock - Mon, 02 Jul 2018 20:02:42 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209306 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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On a primal psychological and biological level, rape takes away a woman's right to choose the genes of her mate while adultery takes away a man's right to choose who he provides resources for. Most women (and men for that matter) consider raping a woman to be a crime more heinous than murder. Most men consider getting stallioned as their biggest fear. In both cases, these are crimes of an evolutionary nature. It explains why women get so traumatized when they're raped, while it's just standard operating procedure for men in prison. It also explains why men typically seem to care far more about their woman cheating than vice-versa.

Rape has the added element of verbal or physical coercion, that's true. But we already have laws for that: assault and battery. We don't have a separate law for, say, coercing someone to eat a bunch of eggs. The only case in which we do this is when physical threats/violence are used to gain access to a woman's holes because deep down, we all know that is their most valuable possession. Moreover, for all intents and purposes (and in some countries in the actual letter of the law) rape is a crime that can only be perpetrated on women.

Yet look at how adultery is treated in America. It's legal in all 50 states, while rape carries not just legal punishments, but can effectively destroy your entire life if you so much as get accused of this. Consider if the roles were reverse. How would you feel if women got imprisoned for committing rape while a guy who sleeps around just has slightly more streamlined divorce proceedings? Seems silly right?

I'm not saying rape is in any way a good thing. But we need to either bring back the criminal penalties for divorce or remove the penalties for rape (while solidifying the penalties for coercion) because the way it is now simply isn't just.
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Jack Smalllock - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 00:29:44 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209307 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This is all a bunch of bait. So you're saying divorce should be illegal or rape should be legal, what a false dichotomy. You're equivocating adultery and rape because they are both 'crimes of an evolutionary nature.' You ignore that the element of coercion is totally different between them, the only thing they have in common is sex.

You've made a bunch of bullshit justifications to feel vindicated in doing something that you clearly know is wrong (or else you wouldn't feel the need to spin this web of contradictions to explain your actions.) I don't think you even believe any of this.
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George Brepperdock - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:58:00 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209308 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209307
>You ignore that the element of coercion is totally different between them, the only thing they have in common is sex.
Got too triggered to read the second paragraph I wrote, huh?
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Lillian Pigglewell - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 13:07:27 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209309 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Jack's got a point George and you are ignoring it.

Its generally not by coercion though, its by force. (Semantics?) There's physical and psychological harm from rape. While adultery may cause psychological harm its really not on the same extreme level as forcing someone to have sex against their will.

I don't know how you can say most men's greatest fear is adultery or being cheated on. There are greater fears.

Rape isn't exclusive to women, men get raped too.

Criminal penalties for divorce would make it that much harder to leave an unhealthy relationship, or even abusive one. Already the coercive social pressure from religious beliefs against divorce encourages (mostly) women to remain in relationships that are bad. Same thing about having kids out of wedlock. If their getting married because they feel like they have to (because their pregnant and that's what's expected of them,) that relationship probably isn't going to last. Nah, people should be with who they please. Relationship issues are a matter of the individuals involved, not the state and its laws. Rape is another matter, its violence, and the rapist should be punished, be it by law enforcement or vigilant justice.
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George Brepperdock - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 13:31:46 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209310 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209309
>There's physical and psychological harm from rape.
If there's physical harm, we already have laws for that. Why change it when it becomes sexual? That's as silly as the concept of "hate" crimes. If there's psychological harm, I'd argue that it's equally bad for men getting cheated on. In addition to what I mentioned earlier, in both cases the act causes a deep distrust of the opposite sex. Women become afraid that all men will rape them, men become afraid that all women will stallion them. In both cases, it's trivially easy for the person to actually commit the act. Virtually any man his capable of raping any woman. Virtually any woman is capable of stallioning any man. The vice-versa is not true. And it's ridiculous to claim that forcing someone to have sex against their will is an intrinsically bad thing unless you also want to admit that even in 2018 a woman's chastity is still their most valuable trait. Sex is universally accepted as the best thing and it usually doesn't last more than 30 minutes. Like I said earlier, most raped women even get aroused as a "defense mechanism". While calling it a defense mechanism is obviously a coping tactic to reconcile that they enjoyed something so taboo, but that doesn't change the fact that they enjoy it. Perhaps most importantly, you can't make subjective judgments like "the psychological harm of adultery isn't as bad as rape" without any basis. Besides, even if it did cause psychological harm, it shouldn't be a criminal charge, only civil.

>I don't know how you can say most men's greatest fear is adultery or being cheated on. There are greater fears.
Okay, fine: men's fear of being cheated on is generally equivalent to women's fear of being raped in frequency and intensity.

>Rape isn't exclusive to women, men get raped too.
I already covered that in the OP. If you go to the police station and try to report that your girlfriend raped you, they'd laugh at you. Gay guys can get away with it a little bit more, but not by much. Take the #metoo movement for instance. I guarantee that there are as many gay guys getting raped in Hollywood as there are women, but no one gives a shit and no one speaks up. Rape is, for all intents and purposes, a crime that can only be done by a man to a woman.

>Criminal penalties for divorce
Nice strawman. All I'm saying is that women should be punished for committing adultery. It should be a crime that carries time, as a deterrent. If the couple wants to divorce or if the guy doesn't want to press charges, that's a separate issue. I definitely do not want there to be criminal penalties for divorce, that doesn't make any sense. I do think that women shouldn't still get alimony, half your stuff, and your dog, but that's a whole other can of worms I don't want to get into.
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Lillian Pigglewell - Tue, 03 Jul 2018 15:06:49 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209313 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209310
You're making generalizations based off of gender that don't seem true. Men cheat on women too. Nonetheless I highly doubt the psychological harm from being cheated on is comparable to being raped. It'd be interesting explore the studies about psychological harm, but i don't have the time to right now. Perhaps since the burden of proof is first on you, you'd do the initial legwork?

In a relationship trusting your partner to be faithful is a personal issue, if their partner isn't faithful and betrays that trust, maybe they shouldn't be together. If the person had been cheated on before in the past, it makes sense they'd have the fear of the same thing happening again in a different relationship, but again, that's something they need to work on in realizing that its not the same person. I guess that logic could be carried over to rape, in that the majority of men aren't terrible people who would rape someone, and the fear of such is an irrational fear from the trauma of their experience.

Why is the concept of a hate crime silly? Its a specific classification of a violent act against someone because of their identity and/or belief. Rape is a specific act that violates the individual's body autonomy, forcing them into a sexual act against their will. Its a unique violation that warrants its own classification and harsher punishment because of how heinous rape is. The same reason why there's even harsher punishment for child molestation, which is unforgivable in my eyes.

Going on about the defense mechanism of feeling some pleasure while being raped, its kinda creepy what you're implying. You make it seem like rape is a good thing when the harm from such has long lasting affect. I know a few individuals who have been raped and they occasionally have flashbacks of the incident which really ruins their positive state of mind before the flashback.

That an accusation of rape by a man is laughable by law enforcement or whoever is an indication of fault in our society. Men do get raped and i imagine its similarly traumatizing for them as it is for women. Perhaps its because women are raped alot more, but that doesn't excuse the dismissiveness of law enforcement or people in general.

That wasn't a strawman, it must have been a typo by you in the OP. Okay, instead you're saying women should be punished for adultery. (What about men, why the focus on only women?) Again, relationship issues are a matter of the individuals involved, not the state and its laws. It'd be ridiculous if the court system were involved in every petty relationship dispute.

As Jack said >>209307
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Henry Debblenure - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 19:52:08 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209317 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209313
There isn't much data with regards to psychological harm of rape and cheating, because you can't really study that without raping or cheating on someone. The only data we have are subjective surveys. But what I do know is that all the men in my life fear cheating more than rape, and all the women in my life fear rape more than cheating. There's something to this. I'm sure you have enough friends of both genders to realize this pattern yourself.

Hate crime is silly because if we truly want an egalitarian society, we need to stop making laws that draw distinction between races. If I beat up someone because they like a different football team than me, it's silly to call that a "hate crime" right? Why would it be different because someone is black or transexual? It's just trying to legislate humanity's primal need for tribalism. Violence is violence and we already have separate laws that deal with that. I think we should treat rape like this to. The issue isn't the sex, it's the violence and the coercion. We already have laws for that. If someone beats the shit out of a woman, then has sex with her, that man should absolutely be punished. But not because he had sex. If a man talks to a woman, then has sex with her, then she feels uncomfortable, that man should absolutely not be punished. Like it or not, women actually do have agency. Think about it: pretty much any time someone gets charged with rape they also get charged with assault and/or battery. If they don't, it's a bullshit charge.

>Rape is heinous
Why? Because some chick said so? Physically, it's not anything they haven't done voluntarily hundreds of times. I say getting cheated on is equally heinous. I cried my little eyes out more than any woman could and it gave me clinically diagnosed PTSD. I get flashbacks and it hinders my functioning in society, just like some (but not many) women claim rape does to them. This isn't actually true because I've never been cheated on but it very well could happen so don't attempt an ad hominem please.

>it's kinda creepy what you're implying
Not an argument. Exactly as I predicted, the crux of your argument is "it makes me feel icky". Well, it makes me feel icky too. Do you know why? Because it's a crime of an evolutionary nature. That's why we have this primal revulsion to women getting raped, but not so much men, and why we have this primal revulsion to women cheating, but not so much men. I just think our laws should at the very least be equal for both sexes. Also exactly as I predicted, you're succumbing to the "women are wonderful" effect. Women aren't these delicate flowers that need to be protected. It doesn't matter that they're weaker physically because they can carry guns. Also rapist homosexual exist, so that's not an argument in the first place.

>the harm from rape has such a long lasting effect
What is the effect? That they feel bad later in life? Whenever someone gets cheated on they feel bad later in life too. Sure, men are told to suppress our emotions and "man up" but that doesn't mean we don't actually suffer equally or even more than women. Isn't the statistic something like 1 in 4 girls have been raped? If that's true, they seem to be functioning pretty fucking well despite that.

>it was a typo
No, you misunderstood, but I'll grant it was a somewhat complex analogy. The way it works now in real life is that if you get caught raping a woman, your life is effectively over. Like, almost worse than death itself. If a woman gets caught cheating on her husband, the only "repercussion" she faces is that divorce proceedings are slightly more streamlined. Although divorce actually benefits woman way more than men, so she really only gets rewarded for adultery. Not to mention all the "you go girl" positive reinforcement she gets from internet feminists. My earlier analogy flipped genders but it also works if you flip the punishments. Would it be fair if you only harshly punished women for committing adultery but not punish men at all for committing rape? Of course not.

Rather than saying only women should be punished for adultery, we should have an equivalent system to how rape law works in this country, ie basically turn a blind eye to men committing adultery just like we turn a blind eye to women raping men. Actually, my true stance is that all this stuff should be wiped out of the legal system and just leave assault and battery as a catch-all for physically or verbally coercive acts. We only have silly stuff like "hate crime" and "sex laws" because it's good politics to appeal to puritan bullshit.

>Again, relationship issues are a matter of the individuals involved, not the state and its laws.
Laws change. Homosexuality was illegal til a few years ago. Adultery was illegal a few decades ago. And do you know how clogged up the court system is these days with bullshit rape accusations from vindictive ex-lovers trying to hurt their former partner? Not to mention all women embellishing the truth to get a piece of the #metoo pie. I don't have a source for the exact number, but surely you've heard the feminist quote "only a small percentage of rape charges go to trial". That's because the prosecutor can't find enough evidence, not cause the "ebil patriarchy" wants girls to get raped. Thanks for bringing up another great reason why we should get rid of rape law.
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Beatrice Hudgebury - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:08:58 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209318 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>rape takes away a woman's right to choose the genes of her mate
>In both cases, these are crimes of an evolutionary nature.
>Most women (and men for that matter) consider raping a woman to be a crime more heinous than murder.

Crimes of an evolutionary nature are intrinsically crimes against reproduction and survival. As sentient biological entities, we use emotions to guide our survival. As such, anything that could compromise these things causes a massive negative emotional reaction, as incentive to avoid things that jeopardize survival.

>It explains why women get so traumatized when they're raped, while it's just standard operating procedure for men in prison.

Here's an idea for you to think about: Rape is a reproductive strategy. Rape defense is a SURVIVAL strategy.

The victim and the perpetrator are not operating on the same level of evolutionary instinct. The trauma is not simply the trauma of having your reproductive rights taken away from you, as bad as that is by itself. It's that your brain and body know how close you were to dying. That's the basis of the trauma, that rape is itself a near-death experience.

So when you bring this back to biology as if that makes rape less of a crime, you're just getting closer to the very basis of it being a crime in the first place.

>we all know that is their most valuable possession

Ignoring the not-at-all-suppressed misogyny for a second, how do you define a valuable possession?

Is it defined by how much the person who owns it values it, or by how much others envy it? Moreover, why would we not want to protect the valuable possessions of others in society, as we would want our own valuable possessions protected in turn?
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Beatrice Hudgebury - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:29:48 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209319 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209317
>I cried my little eyes out more than any woman could and it gave me clinically diagnosed PTSD. I get flashbacks and it hinders my functioning in society

You do know that individuals have different levels of tolerance for trauma? It's called "resilience".

Your using your own experience of trauma as a prop to discount other people's trauma, rather than as the bridge between their struggle and yours.

If fact, judging from the angle of your rhetoric here:
>try to report that your girlfriend raped you, they'd laugh at you
>Like it or not, women actually do have agency.
>Because some chick said so?
>Well, it makes me feel icky too
>Whenever someone gets cheated on they feel bad later in life too.
>men are told to suppress our emotions
...your entire argument is based on either jealousy of how little you perceive women having to deal with, or misplaced anger at the failures of the justice system (which is completely justifiable to be angry at).

Again, my problem with you saying this isn't so much that it's wrong, it's that it's impractical. You're not going to persuade anyone, and I'll tell you why:
Because of the way in which you feel slighted by the unfairness of the world, you've categorized all the trauma of women that would normally cause empathy to hear about, as being more and more examples of fake, attention grabbing narratives.

Why do you think this? For the simple reason that that's how your traumas are (or how you assume they would be) taken by others. Why not be the change you want in the world, Henry?
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Augustus Drupperdark - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:37:59 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209320 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209318
>It's that your brain and body know how close you were to dying. That's the basis of the trauma, that rape is itself a near-death experience.
Wrong. Just because feminists started the "rape survivors" meme doesn't make it real. The goal of a rapist is not to murder people. If it was, then he'd be a murderer which is a separate thing that we have separate laws for. The goal of a rapist is to cum in a woman. Nothing more.

>Ignoring the not-at-all-suppressed misogyny for a second, how do you define a valuable possession?
Uh, I'm implying that a woman's chastity is NOT particularly valuable, therefore rape isn't a big deal. Guess I should have used facetious quotes.

Man, this debate was easier than I thought it'd be.
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Beatrice Hudgebury - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:47:19 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209322 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209320
>Wrong.
>The goal of a rapist is to cum in a woman.

That doesn't make what I said wrong. Whatever the goal of the rapist (and, you know, Ted Bundy existed so murder isn't always off the cards), what that produces is a near-death experience.

>I'm implying that a woman's chastity is NOT particularly valuable, therefore rape isn't a big deal.

Why do you think what's at stake during a rape is only chastity?

How about this.
Describe for me, from the perspective of both victim and rapist, a genuine rape.
Then describe for me a typical "rape". Ie, the sort of rape you would skeptically put in air quotes.
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Augustus Drupperdark - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:49:14 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209323 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209319
>using your own experience to discount others trauma
No, I am trying to bridge their struggle and mine. That's why I think that rape and adultery should be treated equally under the law. A victim of adultery suffers equally as much as a victim of rape. Interesting that you think comparing my own suffering to that of a woman somehow "discounts" the woman's suffering. Are you perchance implying that a woman's suffering is intrinsically more "important"? Yes. Yes you are.

>u r jelous n angry little man
M-my feelings were hurt...truly a devastating argument. I'm not jealous and I'm not angry. I realized that the law doesn't treat these two equivalent crimes fairly and I'm explaining why. I don't really expect to persuade anyone. There's no way in hell any one of you guys would ever concede an argument, let alone one that you find "misogynistic". It's just an interesting thought I had recently and I wanted to see how it held up. Judging from y'all's responses in this thread, pretty damn well.

>Why not be the change you want in the world, Henry?
lol I would intentionally wreck my life by saying anything positive about rape in public. I guess "fear of being a pariah" would be the most accurate answer to your comment. Maybe if I become a completely celibate billionaire I'll become a rape advocate.
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Beatrice Hudgebury - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 20:59:06 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209324 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209323
>Are you perchance implying that a woman's suffering is intrinsically more "important"?

No, because you're the one who took me saying "others" as me saying "women", because that's the argument you're obviously primed to respond to.

What I'm saying is about rape victims in general. Men or women. I could tell you all the ways in which men are fucked over, no pun intended, in terms of both rape accusations and as rape victims themselves. You comparing your not-even-personally-experienced cheating trauma devalues the trauma of every male rape victim as well as every female one.

That's why your argument is offensive, and offensive in a way you should nominally care about given what you've said about male trauma being ignored.

>let alone one that you find "misogynistic"

I don't care that your argument is misogynistic. I care that it's stupid and unpersuasive on an important issue that deserves much better argumentation in its favour than what you've provided.
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Augustus Drupperdark - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:08:49 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209325 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209322
>rape is always a near-death experience
That's a pretty extraordinary claim you got there. Prove it. Also prove that adultery does not cause similar trauma. Also prove that near-death experiences are inherently a bad thing. I regularly do dissociatives and parkour because they give me near-death experiences.

>Why do you think what's at stake during a rape is only chastity?
I'm wracking my brain to think of something other than sex that happens during rape. Yes she might get scared or injured, but that's covered by assault and battery. So what specially makes it "sexual assault"? Could it be...sex?

Real rape
Victim:
>Oh shit, what's that guy doing behind me? Why is he walking faster? Fuck. Fuck! Oof!
>Fuck! Shit! He has me on the ground!. FUCK! Okay deep breaths. AIIIIEEEE. He's got a knife! Okay okay.
>"Take whatever you want! Please just don't hurt me!"
>Scream cry cry cry sob sob etc
>He's done. I feel so dirty. Fuck. What should I do? What will I tell my boyfriend? Am I pregnant? FUCK! Okay I need to go to the hospital. I need to call someone.
>Cry cry sob sob sob etc

Rapist::
>Okay, just did some meth, gonna get my fuck on by any means necessary. Oh shit there's a bitch. No witnesses, check. No cameras, check. Got my knife, check. Let's do this.
>"Scream and I'll kill you bitch. Let's not turn this rape into a murder"
>Oh man this is the hottest thing
>Cum
>Shit. I better get the fuck outta here. Man that wasn't worth it

Fake rape This actually happened to one of my close friends with an important distinction HE WAS DATING THE GIRL FOR A FEW WEEKS
Victim:
>That guy is pretty ugly, but he sure is tall
>Whoa why's he coming over here? Uh yeah sure I'll accept a drink from you
>Ehhhh now he'll feel awkward if I don't go home with him. well, might as well I guess "yeah lets hook up big boy ;)"
>Ugh that sex was gross
>(Next morning talking with friends) What? You mean that counts as rape? Oh my god, I had no idea!

Rapist:
>That girl sure is pretty. If I just be confident maybe I can get laid tonight!
>Golly! It's working! This is awesome!
>I didn't last too long, but hopefully we'll do this again sometime, right?
>Turns out she gave me a fake number. Can't win them all I guess
>(A month later) What? A rape accusation? What the fuck? Goddamnit! She even gave explicit consent earlier in the night! Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck... Ooh this bad
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Augustus Drupperdark - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:10:34 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209326 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209324
I'm not the one devaluing anything. You're devaluing the trauma of all the men and women who get cheated on by saying "rape is automatically worse". People who get cheated on would disagree with you.
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Beatrice Hudgebury - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:26:28 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209327 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209325
>I regularly do dissociatives and parkour because they give me near-death experiences.

You mean you voluntarily put yourself in a somewhat risky situation and therefor find it enjoyable and not traumatic?

>Prove it

Well, one way I could prove it is by comparing descriptions of disassociation during rape with disassociation commonly experienced in other life-threatening, intensely stressful situations. However, that would require you to be willing to accept such narratives as honest emotional descriptions, which I don't get the feeling you would.

>There isn't much data with regards to psychological harm of rape and cheating, because you can't really study that without raping or cheating on someone. The only data we have are subjective surveys.
>A victim of adultery suffers equally as much as a victim of rape.

So how are you making the statements you have about the intensity trauma of rape and adultery when you don't believe there exists objective data on these things? Can you prove that the trauma of adultery is equal to the trauma of rape? Can you even prove that trauma has distinct levels, or how to identify "true" trauma from "fake" trauma?

By the same token, what exactly are you basing your rape vignettes on? I mean, you're sourcing one from your friend. Are you sourcing it from his direct telling of the story? From observation of the entire course of events? From your own extrapolation of events you didn't see from your perception of the events you did?
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Beatrice Hudgebury - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:28:48 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209328 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209326
>People who get cheated on would disagree with you.

I've know plenty of people, male and female, who have been both raped and cheated on.

I know for a fact which they found more traumatic, and which was harder to get support for from friends and family.
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Augustus Drupperdark - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 21:56:35 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209329 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209327
Most people find dissociative experiences terrifying. Regardless, rape isn't a life or death situation. It's a "have sex or not" situation.

>So how are you making the statements you have about the intensity trauma of rape and adultery when you don't believe there exists objective data on these things?
The point I'm making is that it's all subjective so it's most fair to just give everything the same rating ie rape and adultery. And besides, the solution I'm giving is to only punish people for assault and battery. There could be sexual component or a racial component or even a furry component, but that should remain as minutia of the case. It shouldn't be codified in the letter of the law. So if trauma was inflicted, the perpetrator would still get punished via our assault and battery laws. We don't need the extra "rape law". Every single time the government tries to legislate sexuality it ends badly in hindsight. I guarantee this is merely another case of that.

>By the same token, what exactly are you basing your rape vignettes on?
The real rape, the one where no one actually got hurt, remember is still assault. The person would get an assault charge in my personal utopia. That vignette is just from media and pop culture. The fake rape, the one where my friend got hurt is from a real incident that happened when I was at college in UNC Chapel Hill. You probably don't know this, but that school is like feminist capital of the East Coast and this sort of bullshit is very very common. Anyway, when he got the call from police we worked feverishly within our social network to get any details we could about what the fuck she talking about. From mutual friends and some first hand covertly sourced info, that's the gist of what we learned. Now, my friend never even got charged with rape, only accused, and certainly not convicted, but that didn't matter to the school who put him on probation. It didn't matter to all the people who only knew of him through the rumor that he raped a girl. All because she wanted to abuse her power. For the record, my friend is something of a "beta" so really the opposite of the type who would be an actual rapist. And this incident permanently damaged his relationships with women. All that shit is definitely on par with the damage most real rapes cause people.
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Augustus Drupperdark - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 22:01:43 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209330 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209328
I know for a fact that one of most common "crimes of passion" is killing someone who cheats on you and/or the third party. I know for a fact that women (and men for that matter) rarely kill their rapists. Sure your friends and can say things that validate your beliefs, but can facts? If people were really so traumatized by rape, there'd likely be a lot more dead rapists. There is something to this, whether you want to admit it or not.

Women accuse men of rape for a myriad of reasons. I implore you to read this pic.
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Caroline Breshhood - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 22:50:08 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209331 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209317
>There isn't much data with regards to psychological harm of rape and cheating
Yes there is. Psychologists and other researchers can study the affects of rape by observing victims afterwards. One example is this paper: Rape-related psychotraumatic syndromes, that looked at victims of rape at the "Center for Victims of Sexual Abuse located in the department of gynecology within the University Hospital in Tours, France" which assessed 83 victims over 6-months. 10% were men. The study traced four major criteria that caused PTSD to remain after 6-months.
>intrafamily rape, first rape aged under 15, repeated rapes by one aggressor over several months, poor quality of environment after rape,
https://www.academia.edu/30627886/Rape-related_psychotraumatic_syndromes

Take a look at the pic of the table of "Psycho-behavioral features following rape, assessed over the 6-month period". The affects from rape is long-lasting and if the victim was under fifteen there's a notable increase of learning difficulties. The paper goes on to note five frequent dissociative disorders:

"psychogenic amnesia (which affects 44% of the cohort) mainly concerns the memory of rape but can also affect the memory of other events; depersonalization (25%) often gives the impression of being outside one's body, as if one were observing oneself from without; dissocia- tire fugue (8%) involves running away whilst in a special state of mind where the sense of identity is disturbed; multiple personality (10%) involves several personalities functioning alternately in the subject; a remaining category of not otherwise specified dissociative disorders (20%) groups together other dissociative states in which the fragmentation of identity lacks sufficient fixity for it to be diagnosed as multiple personality. The somatoform disorders sometimes included gynecological symptoms such as pelvic pain or amenorrhea."

The next table lists more mental disorders from rape documented by the cohort studied. Check it out. Rape clearly causes severe psychological harm. Besides the obvious physical harm from being forced, there's getting STDs from the rapist.

The creepy comment is because you were insinuating rape could actually be a good thing. There's plenty of other papers that explores the harm from rape, i hope you inform yourself. I don't know where you get all that straw about "women are wonderful". I don't make generalizations about an individual based off of their gender, or really any other aspect of their identity.

Looking for harm from adultery i found a few interesting papers. This essay The Wrongness of Adultery posits that their partner finding another lover may diminish the betrayed partner's own erotic self-worth.
>Betrayed partners frequently assume that the partner will leave them to make a new life with the new lover. When this happens, he will no longer know himself to be someone who can inspire and sustain a mutual disposition to be drawn on the basis of sexual feelings.
https://www.academia.edu/13437310/The_Wrongness_of_Adultery

I couldn't find something about psychological harm from adultery, but I imagine that's real too. Not only the affects upon the betrayed partner's self-worth, but also ability to trust others, or have a new healthy relationship without fear of betrayal from their partner. Nonetheless the betrayed partner wasn't forced against their will to do something. It was an action by their partner with another.

Here's a paper about the history of law concerning rape: TRIANGULATING RAPE https://www.academia.edu/4274605/TRIANGULATING_RAPE

>Sure, men are told to suppress our emotions and "man up" but that doesn't mean we don't actually suffer equally or even more than women.
The expectation of men suppressing their emotions is a fault of our society. Regardless of gender, we're humans that experience emotions, and its healthy to allow ourselves to feel whatever it may be.

>The way it works now in real life is that if you get caught raping a woman, your life is effectively over.
The consequences are worse for rape because the harm from rape is worse than the harm from adultery.

>Although divorce actually benefits woman way more than men, so she really only gets rewarded for adultery.
Why & how does divorce benefit women more than men? Prove it.

>And do you know how clogged up the court system is these days with bullshit rape accusations from vindictive ex-lovers trying to hurt their former partner?
How do you know that the accusation of rape isn't true?

>Not to mention all women embellishing the truth to get a piece of the #metoo pie.
What pie? If anything its encouraged people to speak out about their experiences and shined light on sectors of our society that have real problems about discrimination based off of gender. Such as in the forestry department that the Newshour highlighted a few months back.

>"only a small percentage of rape charges go to trial"
One of the articles covers that: Rape Victims' Attitudes to Rape Myth Acceptance https://www.academia.edu/12263858/Rape_Victims_Attitudes_to_Rape_Myth_Acceptance Its actually only a small percentage of rape is reported because the victim is afraid they wont be believed, or fear reprisal, or shame from their peers or family. So its not a lack of evidence in trial.

>Rather than saying only women should be punished for adultery, we should have an equivalent system to how rape law works in this country, ie basically turn a blind eye to men committing adultery just like we turn a blind eye to women raping men.
That's a problem of our society, the blind eye, and the solution would be to take allegations of rape by men seriously as well. According to the first paper i'd quoted at the start of this post: "We confirmed that rape victims are likely to be women, but the number of male victims was not negligible. Rape affects all socio-professional groups and mainly teenagers. The results suggest that non-disrupted attachment in childhood protects against rape, but not against PTSD if the subject does become the victim of rape."

Except adultery shouldn't be punished by the state because of the personal aspect of relationship issues. If i change a few words in the following sentence maybe then you'd understand what i mean? Relationship issues are a matter of the individuals involved, and shouldn't be the concern of the state and its laws.

Here's another paper that argues against the criminalization of adultery, if you care to read their arguments: BE CAREFUL CRIMINALIZING ADULTERY 1 Nurrohman https://www.academia.edu/28378380/BE_CAREFUL_CRIMINALIZING_ADULTERY_1_Nurrohman
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Caroline Breshhood - Wed, 04 Jul 2018 23:04:46 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209332 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209330
From the first article cited in this post >>209331, in the first paragraph of 2. Method
>one was a man who had just killed the person who had abused him as a child
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Augustus Drupperdark - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:22:24 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209334 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209331
>There's data saying rape is traumatic
There's data saying assault and battery are traumatic. Read the actual paper. "All subjects were victims had undergone sexual penetration after a *violent assault*". Thanks for providing yet more evidence to support my point. I'm not saying rape is good or even adultery is bad. I'm saying that we need to get the government out of the bedroom, period. Giving someone an STD, is already classified as assault, an in cases of HIV, attempted murder: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/transmitting-std-north-carolina.htm

>I'm egalitarian!
The "women are wonderful" effect isn't a slur, it's phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_are_wonderful_effect

>Infidelity isn't so bad guys
"Disclosure or discovery of infidelity triggers a broad range of adverse relationship and individual consequences, including increased risk of major depression and suicidality in either one or both partners." http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-25937-004
"In this qualitative study each participant describes their spouses infidelity and its aftermath as the most or one of the most traumatic and difficult events of their lifetime" https://surface.syr.edu/cfs_etd/15/
Remember, unlike with rape, there is no violent act to conflate the results with.

>The consequences are worse for rape because the harm from rape is worse than the harm from adultery.
I guess this bears yet more repetition because you're still not getting it: the reason why rape is bad is the violence, not the sex. Therefore, we shouldn't have special laws to handle sex based violence. That's like having sodomy laws on the books.

>Women benefit from divorce
Women get child custody 80% of the time. https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-237.pdf That means, in addition to actually getting custody of the kids, they get free money from the ex-husband. That's not even getting into alimony, although I will admit that aspect has gotten slightly fairer in recent years. There's a reason why women initiate 70% of divorces, because they are intelligent people who do things in their own self-interest. As for *why* divorce benefits women more than men? That's a result of the Women are Wonderful effect.

>HoW dO yOu KnOw ThE aCcUsAtIoNs Of RaPe ArEnT tRuE?
How do you know that they are? Again, I refer you to this picture.

>#metoo
You're telling me the woman who ruined Aziz Ansari's and Louis CK's career weren't lying to get attention and money? We'll just have to agree to disagree there.

>rape evidence
The victims are likely afraid they won't be believes because, brace yourself, some women have self-awareness. They know that what happened to them doesn't deserve the punishment convicted or even accused rapists get, and they retract their statement after they become less emotional. Stop assuming that women are mindless feminist automatons.

>That's a problem of our society, the blind eye
lol I guess you didn't read the last bit of my former post. When I say that rape is an equivalent crime to adultery, I mean that they both should not be crimes. Assault, yes. Battery, yes. Please try describing to me a case where a "rape" occurs, but there is no assault and no battery.

>this 1 guy I know killed his rapist once
Women kill for money, men kill for jealousy: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-05/female-murderers-more-likely-motivated-by-love-financial-gain/9378404 Interesting...maybe I'm, right?

tl;dr the only thing I want you to respond to is Please try describing to me a case where a "rape" occurs, but there is no assault and no battery.
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Caroline Breshhood - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 12:59:01 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209335 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209334
Way to misrepresent (or maybe misunderstand) some of the points made.

From the first paper, it defines rape victims as "subjects who had undergone sexual penetration after a violent assault, the use of force, or being taken unawares." So rape generally involves violence. Rape becomes rape when the perpetrator sexually penetrates the victim. Its violence in addition to sexual penetration. The trauma from the experience often reappears during consensual sexual acts.

As quoted in >>209331 PTSD is significantly linked to the cohort studied when two of the four factors occurs: intrafamily rape, first rape aged under 15, repeated rapes by one aggressor over several months, poor quality of environment after rape. The psychological harm from rape occurs due to other factors besides the violent aspect of most rape, since some cases are of the victim being "taken unawares".

Its cool you're looking into harm from adultery and cheating except it doesn't seem like you read past the abstracts. Its never been a dispute that being cheated on is psychologically harmful. The question was which is more severe.

From the second link The impact of infidelity on the offended spouse: A study of gender differences and coping strategies in a religious population:
>Both men and women perceived the infidelity as an abandonment of them as a marital partner. [...]

>However, women with children living at home at the time of the infidelity experienced didn't enter new relationships as did men in the same situation. Men also commented that though traumatic they looked back on the experience as a growth experience. Women saw themselves growing as a result of the infidelity, but wouldn't ever wish this on anyone. This study, though small and preliminary, points out the traumatic, life changing impact of the discovery of infidelity on the offended partner, with more prolonged effects on women.

I don't know about those cases about the celebrities. The metoo thing spanned all sectors of our society and wasn't limited to only high-profile cases. It came to light that there were longterm patterns of sexual harassment of women within the Forest Service since at least 1972: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/they-reported-sexual-harassment-then-the-retaliation-began

The example of the guy who killed his rapist is from the first article i cited. Maybe he's an outlier.

Women get custody during divorce more often because the court determines they are the primary care provider, are the most stable option for the kid(s), and are most capable. I don't know why more women initiate divorce than men (if that's true, source needed), neither do you.

In previous posts you were trying to say rape doesn't cause psychological harm, it clearly causes immense harm for long periods of time. Legally rape is a legit classification because it is a unique violation that causes harm differently than assault or battery would. The same reason why there are different degrees of assault or what-have-you. The point that the sexual act was non-consensual and against the victims' will is why that sexual act is bad. There's no excuse for a rapist forcing someone against their will, taking them by surprise, or coercing them.
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Jenny Brunkinkudge - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 21:17:03 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209337 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209335
I explicitly requested you do one thing, and that was describe a rape situation where no assault and no battery happens.The fact that you were incapable of doing that (if you were capable you surely would given all that you wrote) proves that you're not actually interested in a debate. Flail away as much as you want, but the records of our debate will remain. I know my argument triggers you. I used to hold 420chan to higher standard, but I will no longer.
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Phoebe Siddlestock - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 21:34:55 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209338 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209329
>Most people find dissociative experiences terrifying.

Most people find rollercoasters terrifying, but people are not as regularly traumatized by going on a rollercoaster than they are, say, in a car accident. Superficially similar experiences, very different contexts.

You like parkour. Would you like it if someone broke into your house at night and threw you out the window? Probably not. Something you enjoy when you deliberately engage with it becomes extremely scary when you're forced to engage with it.

>the one where no one actually got hurt
That's because you stopped the narrative in the immediate aftermath. You don't look at the effects that happen over the next month, or six months, or year, because you simply don't believe, in the face of the entirety of human history, that rape is a traumatic experience.

>but that school is like feminist capital of the East Coast

I couldn't give two shits about your country's fucking culture war. How about you refer to something other than petty college politics to justify your beliefs on a major social problem that has existed with humans since before we were even humans?

If your story is true on face value, that's a bad thing that happened. Why was it bad? Because it affects his future relationships with women on an emotional level. You seem capable of designating this a bad thing when it's your friend. Is there any reason you're incapable of doing this for anyone else?

>one of most common "crimes of passion" is killing someone who cheats on you and/or the third party
Yeah, and another one is killing someone who raped you, or raped your partner. Although that's not really great evidence, since we define "crimes of passion" as these sort of revenge-for-sexual-crimes crimes and so your line of reasoning is tautological.

>including increased risk of major depression and suicidality in either one or both partners
Again, you're able to designate this a bad thing in only one direction.

>Women get child custody 80% of the time.
Again, stop it with your culture war bullshit. American divorce law is a crock of shit. People who don't live in your country laugh at you for it.

Are you trying to get me to defend California? Cause, you know, I've been there, so I'm not going to.

>They know that what happened to them doesn't deserve the punishment convicted or even accused rapists get
Or maybe they don't want to go through a difficult police questioning process for little to no outcome.

Let me guess, the police report system is perfect in America, so you're completely confident to say anyone who doesn't want to engage with it just didn't really have a problem.

>Please try describing to me a case where a "rape" occurs, but there is no assault and no battery.

Any sex where the victim makes their lack of consent clear and the sex does not stop.
Getting drugged and date raped.
Being emotionally blackmailed into sex.
Being actually blackmailed into sex.
Failure to disclose information that materially changes the risk of sex (ie: that someone has aids, or took a condom off halfway through etc)

Now, you may realised that these situations are just as likely to happen to a man than a woman. In fact, you may want to know that if you widen the female focused definition of rape from "penetrated" to "forced to penetrate", just as many men are rape victims as women.
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Samuel Sabberford - Thu, 05 Jul 2018 22:23:52 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209339 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209337 Oh noes! Well, that is pretty lame if you tap out like that. Engage with the content brah.

In the third paragraph down >>209335
>The psychological harm from rape occurs due to other factors besides the violent aspect of most rape, since some cases are of the victim being "taken unawares".
(The quotes taken from their definition of rape.)

>>209338 Siddlestock puts possible non-violent rape scenarios alot better anyways.

Except rape does occurs to women more often than men. According to that one article i keep citing Rape-related psychotraumatic syndromes, about 10% of rape victims in the study were men. This was at a clinic in France, so maybe there's different demographics elsewhere.
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Phoebe Siddlestock - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 03:22:32 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209340 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209339
>Except rape does occurs to women more often than men.

I'm specifically thinking of one study which I can't find right this second, but the general gist of the literature is that women are far more likely to report being raped than men, and women are far more likely to use the word "rape" as a description of the experience.

There was one line in it from a male rape victim who basically said "I never said what happened to me was rape because he didn't specifically stick it in my ass".
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Jenny Brunkinkudge - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:08:35 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209341 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209338
>Any sex where the victim makes their lack of consent clear and the sex does not stop.
That's assault
>Getting drugged and date raped.
That's assault
>Being emotionally blackmailed into sex.
So they could stop at any time, but they don't cause they're afraid of "feeling bad"? This wouldn't hold up in any non-feminist court
>Being actually blackmailed into sex.
That's blackmail
>Failure to disclose information that materially changes the risk of sex (ie: that someone has aids, or took a condom off halfway through etc)
That's assault

I can do this all day.

>The psychological harm from rape occurs due to other factors besides the violent aspect of most rape, since some cases are of the victim being "taken unawares".
If you forced the victims to elaborate, what happened to them would easily fall under the definition of assault.
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Phoebe Siddlestock - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:51:03 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209343 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209341
Wait, taking off a condom halfway through is assault? Not disclosing serious illness is assault?

What is your definition of assault?
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Phoebe Siddlestock - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:55:01 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209344 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209341
Incidentally, we've been talking about "rape" because that's how you've chosen to discuss this topic.

I would point out that the charge (or the umbrella of specific charges) is generally called some variation of "sexual assault" in most places.

So I don't know why you keep harping on about all of it "really" being assault. It's a trivial thing to focus on.
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Phoebe Siddlestock - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:56:29 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209345 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209341
For example, here's the definition where I live:

>Sexual assault includes rape, incest, child abuse, and unwanted sexual behaviour, for example, unwanted kissing and touching.

>It also includes behaviour that does not involve actual touching. For example, forcing someone to watch pornography or masturbation is also sexual assault.
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Phoebe Siddlestock - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 11:01:14 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209346 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209341
>A person rapes if:

>they sexually penetrate you without your consent, either:
>>while being aware that you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>>while not giving any thought to whether you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>after sexual penetration they do not withdraw after becoming aware that you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>they make you sexually penetrate (or not stop penetrating) them or another person. It does not matter if the person being penetrated consents to the act.


>Consent means free agreement of your own free will. Under the law you are not freely agreeing if penetration happens:

>because you were physically forced to do it or you feared someone else would be forced
>because you were scared of what might happen to you or someone else
>because you were unlawfully detained (held), for example, locked in a house or car.

>Under the law you are also not freely agreeing if you:

>are asleep, unconscious or so affected by alcohol or drugs that you cannot freely agree
>are not able to understand the sexual nature of the act
>mistake the sexual nature of the act or think the person is someone else
>believe that the act is for medical or cleanliness purposes.


So do you have any theoretical issues with these?
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Jenny Brunkinkudge - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 11:53:20 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209347 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209343
The legal definition. I'll refer you to the same exact link I used earlier in this thread: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/transmitting-std-north-carolina.htm

>>209344
It's not a trivial difference with regards to the repercussions. Even other prisoners treat you worse when they learn that you're a rapist. Most business are willing to overlook mere assault charges. Chalk it up to a male-dominated world or whatever, but that's how it is.

>>209345
>watching porn involuntarily is literally rape
That's bullshit. That's the exact kind of shit that needs to be wiped from the lawbooks. Like nigga just close your eyes. The same goes for kissing and touching. No one is getting hurt. Everyone has to live with uncomfortable situations sometimes. Reminder: if the person is threatening you with a knife in order to get you to kiss them, that's assault.

>>209346
I think the following are unreasonable if you assume that there is nothing occurring that could not also be classified as assault or battery:
>while being aware that you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>while not giving any thought to whether you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>after sexual penetration they do not withdraw after becoming aware that you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>are asleep, unconscious or so affected by alcohol or drugs that you cannot freely agree
>are not able to understand the sexual nature of the act
>mistake the sexual nature of the act or think the person is someone else
>believe that the act is for medical or cleanliness purposes

The other ones all involve some degree of assault, but even the last few of the ones I find unreasonable you could classify under fraud anyway.
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Samuel Sabberford - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 15:26:11 EST ID:yG540JtQ No.209348 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209340
It'd be interesting to learn more about unreported rape because of a stigma (or what, emasculation?) for men who are raped. I wonder if they took into account that women under-report rape as well, for probably different reasons.

>>209347
According to that link:
>In North Carolina, a person commits the crime of assault by physically injuring another. [...] Any injury that requires medical attention could be considered serious injury. Any object or substance that could be used to kill someone, including a virus or bacteria, can be a deadly weapon in North Carolina.

There are different degrees of assault and battery because labeling something simply as assault is too broad of a term and different severity of harm (or intention) warrants different punishment. So NC defines assault and battery, assault, and affray as Class 2 misdemeanors if "the victim has suffered minor injury only (of a type that would not require a doctor's attention)."

A Class A1 misdemeanor offense would then be from inflicting serious injury or involves a deadly weapon that includes multiple different kinds of classifications of assault: -- domestic violence which either involves a deadly weapon or inflicts serious injury that is between people who have a personal relationship, in front of a minor, -- or sexual battery which is any sexual contact or physical contact committed for sexual purposes by force and against the victim’s will, including "any sexual contact with a victim who is mentally disabled, physically helpless, or otherwise incapacitated, where the defendant knows or should know of the victim’s disability", -- or Offenses against particular victims, when the victim is a women or a child under 12 and the man is over 18, or "state employees or officers, public transit operators, and campus or private security officers, but only if the assault occurs while the victims are acting in their official or employment capacity, and a public, private, or charter school employee or volunteer who is on school property, during a school event, or in the course of transporting children to or from school," or assaulting a sports official during a game.

Further, assault with a deadly weapon with either intent to kill or causing serious injury warrants a Class E felony punishment. While assault with a deadly weapon with both intent to kill and serious injury is a Class C felony punishment.

See how saying just "assault" glazes over the particular circumstances and appropriate punishment? There are different degrees of classification of assault for a reason.

Looking at Forms of Sexual Assault from that website:
>Whether a state’s laws call forced sexual intercourse “sexual assault,” “rape,” “sexual battery,” or “criminal sexual penetration,” the criminal conduct usually is designated as sexual penetration or sodomy without consent.

So there are different legal definitions for the same act depending on which state. What it boils down to is consent. Which brings up the question whether someone with mental disabilities can consent and also whether sex between a person in authority "-- such as a teacher, police officer or prison guard -- and someone over whom that person has authority -- a student, a person in police custody, or a prisoner in a correctional facility or jail" is consensual or coerced? Like is the person in authority manipulating the person under them into the act. Seems like a gray area while in other cases probably more black and white.

>Many states have divided the crime of rape into degrees, like rape in the first and second degree. The charge will depend on the type of force used, whether the sexual assault resulted in serious bodily injury, or whether it was committed with a deadly weapon, such as a rape at gun point.

It goes on:
>Criminal sexual contact and sexual battery that do not involve penetration usually are less serious crimes and subject an accused to lighter penalties than rape or criminal sexual penetration. But criminal sexual contact that results in personal injury or is committed with a deadly weapon or by more than one person normally is a felony. Criminal sexual contact without a weapon that involves only force or coercion, however, can be a misdemeanor.

>Aggravated sexual assault or aggravated rape is a more serious form of the crime of rape or sexual assault, because the circumstances or the injury are considered “aggravated” or more serious than the circumstances or injury involved in other rapes or sexual assault.
the more serious circumstances generally involved intent to kill, use of a deadly weapon, severe physical injury, the use of a drug to incapacitate the victim then rape them, or if raped by a step-parent or guardian, or if it occurs during another felony such as robbery.

Hopefuly all of that above clarifies rather than obfuscates.
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Jenny Brunkinkudge - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 15:57:06 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209349 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>209348
Whatever dude. We both know I won this debate and so does everyone lurking. The fact that you've resorted to quoting paragraphs of legalese is sufficient evidence for this claim, although I've also refuted your points time and again, effortlessly. It's not like I ever expected you to explicitly concede defeat or for society to change it's laws from this thread. The most I hoped for was you resorting to copes like this. So feel free to get the last word in kiddo. I know how important it is to guys like you.
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Ernest Cingerwane - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:20:59 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209350 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209347
Fuck you so much man. How is it not painfully obvious to everyone else how much of a shit tier troll this guy is? He never responds to anything in good faith, every time someone brings up a legitimate criticism of what he says he deflects, continuously redefining the words he uses. He's a textbook example of a bad-faith arguer.

Rape is a life threatening circumstance. Do you know how many people are murdered during their rape? Do you actually have any ideas forming this spiel other than your naive intuitions about how the rest of the world must work coupled with faulty reasoning and sophistric trickery? Do you actually have any real world experience, or are you spouting off because the way the world really is and works hurts your fee fees? Have you ever been raped? No? Then I suggest you shut the fuck up.
source: I was raped by someone who was additionally attempting to murder me at the time. It's real, it's nothing like cheating, it's traumatic, it's a crime humans have recognized since the dawn of time that MUST remain a crime forever, and everything you're spinning up is just chasing your own tail within your own mind, you have nothing to refer to but your own circular definitions and legalistic fantasies. You don't know dick.
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Ernest Cingerwane - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:22:27 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209351 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209349
Dude you didn't win shit. You hardly responded to any of his arguments, you're a classic deflector/ mid-debate redefiner/ goal post mover. This board is incredibly slow and most people are probably just hoping you go away. You should not take silence as applause.
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Martin Pushcocke - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:32:53 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209353 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209347
>Like nigga just close your eyes. The same goes for kissing and touching. No one is getting hurt. Everyone has to live with uncomfortable situations sometimes.

So why is the angle of your focus on the victim? It'd be like saying to a victim of robbery "well, if you can live without that stuff then it was a victimless crime".

Doing X is against the law. Someone knowing does X. They knowingly did something against the law. At that point they are culpable for their actions, regardless of the victim's state of mind. Whether that's sex or kissing or putting on porn, there are clear legal boundaries in regards to other people.

>watching porn involuntarily is literally rape

It's literally sexual assault.

I don't get your attitude. It's like, not only are you saying that rape and trauma don't exist, you seem to be implying that the concept of vulnerability itself doesn't exist. That not only do people have perfect levels of agency, they also have 100% ability to act on that agency at all times, and that any time it's compromised they simply aren't trying hard enough.


>I think the following are unreasonable

>while being aware that you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>while not giving any thought to whether you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>after sexual penetration they do not withdraw after becoming aware that you are not consenting or might not be consenting
>are asleep, unconscious or so affected by alcohol or drugs that you cannot freely agree
>>are not able to understand the sexual nature of the act

So, as long as nothing too violent happens, you think that sex should be opt-out rather than opt-in, unable to be stop once initially consented to, and even if you don't consent due to a little thing like being unconscious or mentally deficient, it's still okay if there are no knife marks afterwards?

>>209349
>you've resorted to quoting paragraphs of legalese

We're doing this because you said this:
>Actually, my true stance is that all this stuff should be wiped out of the legal system and just leave assault and battery as a catch-all for physically or verbally coercive acts.

So you know, if you want to talk about your legal reforms go ahead, but you're not going to get very far if you can't even, you know, read the law.
>>
Martin Pushcocke - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 21:25:17 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209354 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209347
>Even other prisoners treat you worse when they learn that you're a rapist.
So wait a minute.

You are aware that even violent male criminals have an instinctual moral disgust about rape? And that doesn't lead you to think that maybe there's a reason for that, that the people who most interact with specific rapists would know?
>>
Reuben Ballybut - Fri, 06 Jul 2018 21:58:52 EST ID:jcTfBHx5 No.209355 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209354
>rape is bad because violent male criminals have an instinctual moral disgust about rape
Damnit, that's some good bait. I couldn't resist replying to this (how dare you violate my posting autonomy by EMOTIONALLY COERCING ME into posting when I tried to leave.
Those same violent male criminals also have an instinctual moral disgust for people of different skin colors. Pretty telling that you had to resort to this.

Every single damn post you guys make proves you still haven't given me the courtesy of reading the second paragraph in the OP. I'll say this one last time: assault is the traumatic part of sexual assault, not the sex. Rape is considered heinous for the same reason as sodomy. It makes people feel icky to know that a woman's reproductive choice was taken away. It also makes people feel icky to know that happens during adultery, but thanks to feminism and the Women are wonderful effect, no one gives a shit when men suffer.
>>
Betsy Huddlebatch - Sat, 07 Jul 2018 01:59:13 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209356 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209355
No, you don't seem to get that everyone has read every paragraph you've posted and you seem unable to respond to anything anyone says and so you keep going on like a broken record.

>> assault is the traumatic part of sexual assault, not the sex.
If I am in a boxing match with someone, and I punch them, it is not assault. If I see the same person on the street and punch them, it is. It's the same act, but because the intention and the consequences are totally different, they are treated as separate crimes with separate punishments. The exact same thing is true for rape. Moreover, the sexual nature of the rape enhances the trauma of the assault, exacerbating both aspects of the crime. Even if there was no physical violence, the violation of one's personal space and sexual autonomy is inherently immoral, unethical, and criminal.

>>Rape is considered heinous for the same reason as sodomy.
No, not at all. In fact, they are more or less considered heinous for opposite reasons. Ancient patriarchical religions tried to introduce mealy-mouthed justifications for rape (just like you're doing now!) while introducing strict punishments for sodomy. However, the continually growing arc of the expansion of the definitions of personal freedom clearly moved them into their respectively opposite categories. In short, the people who are anti-'sodomy' and usually pro-rape, and vice versa. Of course, you already know this and are acting dumb for ???? reasons.

>>It makes people feel icky to know that a woman's reproductive choice was taken away.
No you dumb shit, it doesn't make "people" icky. It makes the woman (or whoever) who was violated feel waaaay worse than icky, and they have a guarantee to equal protection under the law. If you were the one being raped, you would not think it so distant or minor a problem. How would you like it if I took away your reproductive choice by forcibly sterilizing you for being such a mouth-breathing rape apologist? Not much I bet?

>>no one gives a shit when men suffer.
Except it's all anyone ever talks about. We can't even ever talk about women without men complaining constantly how they aren't being talked about for half a second. If you honestly think you have it harder than women, then good luck to you, I suppose ignorance is bliss, but ignorance will never convince a majority to adopt a policy proposal -- which was your stated objective in the OP.
>>
Hedda Snodridge - Sat, 07 Jul 2018 20:48:00 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209357 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209355
>by EMOTIONALLY COERCING ME into posting when I tried to leave
>Pretty telling that you had to resort to this.
Pretty telling that you respond to the sarcastic rhetorical point rather than anything else.

>you still haven't given me the courtesy of reading the second paragraph in the OP

I did read it and I asked you specific questions about it which you ignored. I'll ask them again.

How do you define what is a "valuable possession"?
How do you hold the simultaneous positions that A) it's impossible to gauge trauma objectively, and B) that you know all this rape "trauma" isn't real?

Very basically, how do you say these things.....
>Perhaps most importantly, you can't make subjective judgments like "the psychological harm of adultery isn't as bad as rape" without any basis.
>There isn't much data with regards to psychological harm of rape and cheating, because you can't really study that without raping or cheating on someone.
>The only data we have are subjective surveys.
>Because some chick said so?
>That's a pretty extraordinary claim you got there. Prove it. Also prove that adultery does not cause similar trauma. Also prove that near-death experiences are inherently a bad thing.
>The point I'm making is that it's all subjective
>Sure your friends and can say things that validate your beliefs, but can facts?

...while also saying these things?
>men's fear of being cheated on is generally equivalent to women's fear of being raped in frequency and intensity.
>all the men in my life fear cheating more than rape, and all the women in my life fear rape more than cheating.
>I say getting cheated on is equally heinous.
>What is the effect? That they feel bad later in life? Whenever someone gets cheated on they feel bad later in life too.
>The real rape, the one where no one actually got hurt
>All that shit is definitely on par with the damage most real rapes cause people.
>A victim of adultery suffers equally as much as a victim of rape.

And also this:
>I'm not the one devaluing anything.
>>
Simon Cillernodging - Sun, 08 Jul 2018 11:01:46 EST ID:4+oWREai No.209358 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I can't believe there exists a thread in which people are actually debating that rape isn't harmful. That's pretty low-brow even for this board.
>>
Thomas Hammerwater - Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:32:35 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209359 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209358
Eh, it's just one guy who has no idea what he's talking about but doesn't know when to quit.

I can bring this back to philosophy:
If rape were not inherently traumatic for the victim, would there be more or less rape in the world?
>>
Albert Nicklebanks - Sun, 08 Jul 2018 21:30:27 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209360 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209359
Essentially, are the majority of rapes rape for it's own ends, or rape for the purpose of inflicting trauma?

I'd be inclined to think the former, as people are more likely to be merely greedy and careless about the boundaries of others than truly sociopathic. But there's probably some concrete data on this.
>>
Thomas Hammerwater - Sun, 08 Jul 2018 23:28:44 EST ID:ogjfl7YN No.209361 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209360
>Essentially, are the majority of rapes rape for it's own ends, or rape for the purpose of inflicting trauma?

Well that's one set of questions, but the other is whether trauma itself is what makes rape difficult to report and get justice for.

I heard the point from Zizek that we authenticate guilt by detail, but we authenticate trauma by lack of detail. Ie, if someone calmly walks through the technical description of what happened to them, we emotionally distrust that narrative. However, if they are so overwhelmed by the experience that they can't even say what happened, there is less evidence to go on.
>>
Albert Nicklebanks - Mon, 09 Jul 2018 00:33:41 EST ID:2LwLwSlz No.209362 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>209361
>>whether trauma itself is what makes rape difficult to report and get justice for.
Possibly, and quite probably, but I'm not sure it would be the biggest contributor to the underreporting -- I imagine that would be shame, and fear that one would not be taken seriously (thus sociological rather than psychological reasons.)

Consider for how much of human history (i.e. to this day in parts of the world) the victim of rape is murdered or otherwise ostracized, and even in the west, how quickly (frequently male) police will go to the 'well what were you wearing? did you lead him on? How many drinks did you have?' angle. Women in particular are socialized to minimize the discomfort of others by taking up as little space as possible, which also certainly contributes both to their lack of being taken seriously and the belief that they won't be taken seriously, a vicious cycle.

It would probably take a very carefully designed and complex study to suss out exactly how much of the underreporting each of these factors contributes to, though.


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