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New Age bullshit and gullibility in psychedelic users by Beatrice Sosslestone - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 05:15:58 EST ID:hGg7tQjw No.877112 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Why are psychedelic users so susceptible to pseudoscience and New Age bullshittery? Out of every community of people in the world, the psychedelic community seems to be the largest factory of exactly this sort of bullshit. Is there something fundamentally deluding about the nature of the psychedelic experience, or are these people bringing severe misinformation to their experiences and then having them amplified by the substances?

I find it infuriating just how many times I've read complete misrepresentations of scientific phenomena (quantum mechanics in particular) that are made just so people's insanely stupid theories could have a fake basis in reality. The alarming part is the total lack of skepticism towards these alternate sources of information, but extreme skepticism towards anything that has actual data supporting it. These people are completely backwards but they don't even know it. I swear, when someone starts talking to me about chakras, auras and star signs I want to punch them in the face so fucking bad.

Are psychedelic users gullible to begin with and are psychedelics deepening their gullibility?
Isabella Gammlenadging - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 05:33:47 EST ID:evAJAJSO No.877113 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Maybe you should look within and find out why it makes you so angry.
Beatrice Sosslestone - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 05:47:32 EST ID:hGg7tQjw No.877114 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I know exactly why it makes me angry, that's not what this thread is about.
Priscilla Sommerwuck - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 06:02:35 EST ID:H5YHVkw4 No.877115 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Psychedelics ramp up pattern recognition. This makes them very useful for logical or artistic type stuff, for example, in high school when I took some and went to stats class, I could see the interactions between the numbers in imaginary gelatinous masses, I understood a premise no one else could, and I immediately knew the answer to a question even the teacher didn't (though I explained it to the class by trying to form my arms into the shape of stairs)
This pattern recognition can be very positive, but sometimes, you see patterns that aren't real, and you can fall for them. For example, you might think that license plates are talking to you because the high incidence of the letter Q is too insane to be a coincidence. New age bullshit is based on stuff like this, stuff that SOUNDS right but retarded. If you're tripping hard enough, though, it makes sense that since energy can't be created or destroyed, you're the reincarnation of your dad, dude!
Emma Gingerforth - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 06:34:56 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877116 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Don't forget that this pattern recognition coupled with the feeling of enlightenment you get from psychedelics can quickly pump up the ego of people to such an extent they think they're the next Leonardo Da Vinci.

When that happens, clearly everyone else is wrong, and only you are right.
Graham Gattinghall - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 12:42:26 EST ID:+eQpIe0V No.877124 Ignore Report Quick Reply
But the machine elves are real, man. They told me so. They also told me to hurry up and grab my magic rocks out of the trash because those work too.

God, I was such a fool for believing the force isn't real.

On a more serious note, yes this is a problem. I personally have seen it several times. While not causing immediate harm, it's definitely not doing anything good. The kind of shit that I've heard people say is ridiculous. One of my friend thinks that there are demons or entities and that you contact them through drugs. He said he did DMT and the entity was malicious and he's never going to do DMT again because there's an evil entity on the other side.

No problem with him never doing "X" thing again, but that nigga is crazy for believing that it was anything other than a hallucination born from his own thoughts and emotions. He hallucinated being terrorized by a malicious force because the dude has some issues he needs to deal with.

That was just an example. A true one.
Wesley Turveyshaw - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 16:31:17 EST ID:uPtm9TnY No.877130 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I guess I'm lucky because I've basically purged all New Age tendencies from my body with enough Altizer and Hegel, but I can definitely see why psychs can cause people to adopt these sorts of beliefs. I don't think it's grounded or anything but I can understand why people without much background in philosophy or religion will fall for quasi-Buddhist New Age woo.
Nell Fosslebug - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:29:20 EST ID:RIVvmLkt No.877135 Ignore Report Quick Reply
> hallucination born from his own thoughts and emotions
how can you confidently say so?
maybe it seems to be the most possible thing,
but in the end: you don't know shit.
nobody knows shit.
so stay open and flexible for any possiblities.
don't accept any blind belief.
everything is dream-like.
be happy.
Beatrice Tootwell - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 22:53:19 EST ID:AabimafB No.877140 Ignore Report Quick Reply
is the myth about OJ/Vitamin C and mushrooms real?
Esther Diblingsatch - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 23:07:48 EST ID:Ax2o0lyO No.877142 Ignore Report Quick Reply
What myth?

If you're talking about orange juice making you trip harder.

The theory behind this is the acid is breaking down the mushroom faster, so you "trip harder"
I don't think the acid could break it down fast enough to really make much difference.
Orange juice is delicious, so you might as well drink it when you trip.
Doris Negglehood - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 23:08:59 EST ID:uPKNxs6Z No.877143 Ignore Report Quick Reply

That's the gospel right there
Edward Blythelock - Sat, 29 Apr 2017 23:19:46 EST ID:qxdMu6ei No.877145 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Whenever I drink fresh orange-juice, I feel refreshed and vitalized.
So in that sense I can imagine, that it has an certain refreshing effect to the trip.
If the orange-juice brings you into an more aware and awake state, then it will certainly make you trip 'harder'.
Albert Braddlelin - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 01:36:13 EST ID:/XrCLknb No.877148 Ignore Report Quick Reply
A good psychedelic experience should make the user question what they believe and more importantly why they believe it. Hopefully this can lead to some kind of self improvement. As to whether auras and chakras and astrology and machine elves etc have any basis in "reality", the answer after a psy trip should be "I don't know". Doing otherwise is as blind as saying god is real or god isn't real when there's no evidence either way. If you think current science has all the answers, you're fairly gullible yourself.
Hedda Haffingforth - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 02:07:11 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877149 Ignore Report Quick Reply
As someone who works with spirits and practices the occult, I love science, but I think it's silly to try to use science to quantify that which can't be quantified by science. Science is useful when dealing with the physical world. The spirit world, which is accessed more easily with the help of psychedelics, by its nature, is of the occult and unscientific, and yet they both exist in my reality.

As with other people's thoughts, just because you can't see them, doesn't mean that they do not exist.
the flicker !FwnV7hV52I - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 03:00:47 EST ID:fn/+DtMJ No.877150 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Requesting more stories like this from other posters, I find them very interesting. Once when I was much younger I took LSD and rode the bus — hearing it groan a certain way as it climbed a hill, I immediately understood intuitively how the gear train provides mechanical advantage.
Fuck Mondleshaw - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:42:39 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877152 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Occam's razor, if you don't need a weird explanation to explain a situation, forget that weird explanation.

And Occam's razor even predates science so don't give me that shit.
Fuck Mondleshaw - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:43:41 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877153 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Look up interviews with the DNA guys, or that chemist that discovered some new plastic molecule on LSD.
Henry Derryhall - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:58:13 EST ID:NRpoYtlK No.877155 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I never get any thoughts on chakras and reincarnation on LSD trips. I usually think of stuff like cause and effect, infinity and the nature of free choice. Might be because I'm a mathematician by trade. It's not like people who are analytical by nature are suddenly going to go all new agey while tripping.
Graham Fonkinwell - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 11:10:26 EST ID:W489fCRk No.877157 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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thats not occam's razor. occam's razor says that the explanation with the fewest assumptions is most likely the correct one. big difference.
Thomas Huzzlebock - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 11:45:41 EST ID:hl5MhjAa No.877158 Ignore Report Quick Reply
New Age-y nonsense and conspiratorial ideas are just really attractive to the psychedelic mind for whatever reason. The problem arises when a person has sobered up but still believes it holds up to scrutiny.
!GOACID/XyA - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 15:13:17 EST ID:f37JQ+W7 No.877170 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Lol this. Other people's beliefs are none of your business, let them be. Getting angry about what other people think is some peasant-status shit, son.
Cornelius Huvingstuck - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 15:51:32 EST ID:JqIW1pne No.877171 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I think one reason why a lot of psychedelic users end up believing a lot of outlandish fantasy ideas is because I think that people who were into strange things to begin with are more likely to be drawn to psychedelics if they hear about the side effects.

I had no intention of ever taking psychedelics until I was smoking weed with a friend at age 19 and he told me that he heard a story about two guys who did DMT and then communicated telepathically. I was like, dude what, no way? And then I started researching psychedelics and reading trip reports and we just BLOWN away by some of the shit that people were describing.

Now it's nine years later and I've tripped over 300 times and I have been there and (not quite) back again far more than I care to remember. It's a wild ride, but there's a clearly visible line between reason and wishful thinking.

People lose their reason when they allow their wishes to get in the way of logic. People wish there were spirits floating around, and magical abilities. I've yet to see any evidence that there's any substance to shamanism and religious spirituality other than the things you feel during rituals. It's all about the sensations.
Cornelius Huvingstuck - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 15:57:08 EST ID:JqIW1pne No.877172 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Other people's beliefs become your business when they come around you bringing up their beliefs. If people don't want to be judged then they shouldn't be in a position to receive judgement. How would those of us who aren't into various belief systems have even heard of those belief systems if other people didn't bring them up?

It's like people are upset at the fact that existence is based on relativity.
Cornelius Huvingstuck - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 16:05:25 EST ID:JqIW1pne No.877173 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Also that's not to say people deserve to be shit talked for their beliefs but if somebody comes up to me talking about fairies and magic crystals I'm going to challenge their beliefs. You can believe whatever you want about reality, but that doesn't change the way the universe operates.

There's a rhythm and a thump to the structure of existence and it's present in every aspect of this bitch. Mathematics, gravity, the flow of electricity. That shit is paramount.
Hedda Haffingforth - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 18:47:05 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877176 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Science and the occult are like yin and yang. They coexist, and what cannot be explained by one can be explained by the other.
Duality is present everywhere and in everything.
Reuben Brookfoot - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 20:30:47 EST ID:Rrfh3LCt No.877177 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Reading this makes my eyes hurt from rolling too hard.

Read some Hegel dude, seriously.
Fuck Hurringbadge - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 20:52:00 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877180 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I thought the occult was like invisible unicorns. I better get in on that occult shit, make the angels and demons pay my fucking bills and do my laundry.

Thanks mate.
Nicholas Fonningdere - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:00:01 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877181 Ignore Report Quick Reply
You're not going to be able to convince me that the spirit world and the occult doesn't exist. I didn't believe in magic or the occult or spirits either until they were right in 'front' of me.
I'm saying the occult has its place in the world, and science has its place in the world. Maybe the occult doesn't have a place in your world, and that's okay, but your way is not the only way.
I practice the occult, but I also use science for things pertaining to the real world.
Nicholas Fonningdere - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:05:02 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877182 Ignore Report Quick Reply
As I've said, the occult is useful for the spiritual. Science is useful for the material.
The word "occult" means exactly that, hidden, elusive, intangible. You aren't going to be able to use magic to make a pile of gold appear in front of you so that you can pay your bills, because the physical world is bound by physical laws which are determined using science. But science is not useful when doing spirit work. As the spirit world is not physical, the laws of science do not apply.
Nicholas Fonningdere - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:09:14 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877183 Ignore Report Quick Reply
There are certainly numerous casualties of the dominant materialistic, capitalistic society who hold material values above all else.
Alice Sullywotch - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:20:08 EST ID:5xFg624U No.877184 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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It's probably to do with the open-mindedness that psychedelics tend to promote, so you can see how the venn diagram of psychedelic users & pseudoscience believers has a lot of overlap. Both groups have this idea that the authorities can't be trusted -> their info is false -> there's a hidden truth out there.
Eliza Drucklefoot - Sun, 30 Apr 2017 22:03:31 EST ID:JqIW1pne No.877187 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I used to believe in ghosts and such when I was younger. Then I started hanging out with some people who were into the occult, then I stopped hanging out with them and tripped balls hundreds of times and now I'm staunchly against that kind of thinking because I've witnessed first hand in other individuals how debilitating faith based beliefs can be for personal growth.

I saw the truth in the clouds and the stars, and I heard it in the babble of the brook and the swaying of the branches. The trees growled their odd speak from their torsos and I knew the truth. The spiritual aspect of existence is the matter itself. Conscious perception is the neverending sunset.
Thomas Blummleshit - Mon, 01 May 2017 00:40:27 EST ID:Vh98vdWF No.877191 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I like some of it because its just fun, even though its all horseshit.
Crystals are good decoration.
Telling people that their chakras are misaligned drives them crazy.
Nicholas Fonningdere - Mon, 01 May 2017 01:11:44 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877192 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I agree, if one always hides behind the safety of one's faith it can cause them to stagnate.
I don't believe in ghosts from the afterlife or that stuff. Just spirit. The universe is spirit, and we are spirit too, as are the trees and stars. I do spirit work in the world of my spirit, which is experiential and subjective.

Crystals are pretty, I don't have any though.
I don't know anything about chakras, that's a system I haven't looked at yet.
>Telling people that their chakras are misaligned drives them crazy.
Fuck Hurringbadge - Mon, 01 May 2017 05:51:59 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877198 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Spirituality found it the matter. The sum greater yet also only being the parts. I lime your style mate.
Walter Bonnerfack - Mon, 01 May 2017 09:24:36 EST ID:GnMp2Pae No.877202 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This, plus I think a lot of people have suppressed desires and pseudo-beliefs that help structure their psyche but are compartmentalized into a "not real" category. When you trip, these desires and pseudo-beliefs appear real and if you trip enough, you experience the "realization" of these desires and pseudo-beliefs so much that they no longer appear to be an anomaly or a helpful but obviously false or hypothetical thought construct that you can continue to categorize into the "not real" box- instead you have experienced them so often that they become a part of your every day reality, creating a tendency in those less cognizant to reassign them to the "real" category.

Plus once you experience fiction as truth enough your senses in general become less reliable. In someone who's never done psychedelics and is mostly sane, imaginary thoughts and beliefs are obviously imaginary because their sensory manifestations are either nonexistent or very faint, whereas to a heavy psychedelic user they might have the same or similar sensory manifestations as things that actually are real. The lines between the purely subjective and subjective-perception-of-something-obviously-objective becomes very blurry- and if you can see entirely fictional things as though they were real, how do you know what is fictional and what isn't anymore?

I'm pretty deluded myself and I noticed that almost all of my delusions are just blown up versions of thoughts I would entertain when I was like 6.

Religion and new age stuff takes advantage of this confused mental state, or any kind of uncertainty, really, and it confirms the desires of those who want for everything to be capital O Okay in the end and right now (when it may or may not be, in reality). Personally as a pessimist by nature I've never had any of those "one with the universe all is light and love" trips, instead I see the world as a place of existential insecurity and a cycle of predation and prey-ness, and that makes sense because these are notions that I have entertained and do believe in. But the kinds of people who do have those kinds of trips probably have a deep seated desire for it to be true.

The belief system itself is not a property of psychedelics imo, and it's not what psychedelics "do", it's a property of the people who do them, but establishing belief systems in general could be a property in people that psychedelics often amplify.
Walter Bonnerfack - Mon, 01 May 2017 09:52:42 EST ID:GnMp2Pae No.877205 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>how debilitating faith based beliefs can be for personal growth
Yeah it's actually incredibly shitty to witness or be a part of. You're so hooked on your own confirmation biases (feeling certain the face of fear provoked by uncertainty, instead of feeling a positive sense of curiosity when confronted with an uncertainty as a more thoughtful person would) and the pavlovian conditioning that comes with them that you stop bothering to see reality objectively or to invite changes to your perspective (personal growth), because when your perspective changes the carrot and stick disappear- and what will you live for when they're gone?

Also a lot of religions have "self-sustaining" mechanisms that include perspective shifts in the "stick" part of the conditioning. New thoughts are the devil, feeling bad or questioning something means you're not living "in the moment", empathizing with the institution's enemies is a product of "possession", bad things that happen to you are automatically justified because it's "god's will and he acts in mysterious ways" or because of your "karma" from a past life that probably doesn't exist. So people get trapped.
Hedda Nenderville - Mon, 01 May 2017 13:07:07 EST ID:wBV6/+Mo No.877209 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I see a few clashes of ideas here.

>Scientific community approved ideas vs current human accumulated wealth of information vs actual physics (which nobody knows and we can only have a subjective interpretation of)
Scientific community is mostly composed of the average person and it's logical that their beliefs are on the level of the vast majority(which is to say rather retarded) and just hugely lagging behind even the very guys they think they base their beliefs upon like einstein or tesla)
>Physical physics vs Consciousness physics
which eventually turns out to hold no dichotomy, but most people's understanding of those is so naive and primitive that they are nowhere close to connecting the dots. Physical world is the same consciousness world. The idea of which is some basic shit, but still quite elusive to most. Magic(pardon my french) is physics
>"truth" (as in observation) vs fantasy(including faith based beliefs)
Claiming that observation is the only pragmatic approach to creating the wanted in life is a grave mistake that will lead to much frustration IMO. It's the trying to control everything in order to feel something in response to it mentality. Instead of letting it flow to you (aka letting go of resistance). Tesla said something along the lines that he received all his inventions from his imagination, plus I don't think that observation is what creates masterpieces of art for example. Evolution exists, but I think it;s something beyond the observable that facilitates that evolution. realism is just regurgitation and a digging into what already is. fantasy serves to create new things. Focus in on the fantasy and in time it will intensify and probably eventually flesh out, crystallize(pardon my french) in one way or another, because that's what happens when you think that;s the intensification, your reality becomes more and more of what you think about, you zoom into the thoughts that you think. If you've tripped enough at high enough doses you will know what i mean by this zooming.

I'm just saying things to bring in more clarity since many here are arguing about one dichotomy and giving arguments about that while the person responding is arguing about another dichotomy and giving completely unrelated arguments and this whole miscommunication just spirals out of control until eventually everyone is just too sick and tired of it to bring it anywhere further. Plus my 2 cents on it just for kicks.
Fuck Hurringbadge - Mon, 01 May 2017 16:19:37 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877214 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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What? What are you talking about? Is your post even in English? What the fuck? Please reformat or rewrite it because NOTHING in it makes any sense.
Doris Grandfield - Mon, 01 May 2017 17:31:44 EST ID:tGc3y3TE No.877215 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Science is still science regardless of how retarded the scientists might be. If something doesn't deal in observing the truth of reality then it is not science.

Science means observing the universe for what it is. I'm having a little trouble following some of your ideas, but I see where you talk about the imagination and Tesla's ideas. Yeah, the imagination is amazingly intuitive and catalysts to myriad novel ideas, but that very imagination exists of the literal physical structure of the universe and the laws under which it operates.

Your thoughts and feelings and figments of your imagination are not only directly related to and born of the physical universe (aka all of reality), they are literally physical. Your thoughts don't exist in some kind of hyper dimension (just for the record I'm not saying that you claimed that they do, I just want to clarify my standpoint), your thoughts are the culmination of interconnected neurons firing in complex succession.

The imagination is both physical and completely relevant to the physical world. That's not to lessen the significance and magnificence of the imagination, just to clarify that the magic is happening right here and now. No extra dimensions necessary. Souls are redundant. Etc.
George Duzzledod - Mon, 01 May 2017 18:16:00 EST ID:lIHxra3i No.877216 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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The sheer amount of incomprehensible New Age-y filmflammery in this thread totally proves OPs point
Doris Grandfield - Mon, 01 May 2017 19:15:41 EST ID:tGc3y3TE No.877218 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Huh, I thought it was the crazos that were losing this thread.
Phyllis Nicklefuck - Mon, 01 May 2017 19:26:17 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877219 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Coming from the dude with some of the most bat shit crazy theories on all of /psy/. Sorry man, if you post your theories on a public imageboard then you've opened your ideas up for discussion. Why even share if it's none of anyone else's business or you don't want to discuss them?

By the way, did it ever occur to you that the opening post was just OPs belief, and according to your own moral decree, it's none of your business and you should just let him be? Are you knowingly a hypocrite or are you just that lacking in self-awareness?
Nell Povingforth - Tue, 02 May 2017 02:54:50 EST ID:65772z+H No.877225 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I'm saying that what the scientific community approves as truth or our best current understanding is very lagging behind what actual current scientific best understaning of humans IMO. Mainstream science vs the cutting edge of science is where people clash sometimes, but when they don't articulate it well, it may appear as if they are disagreeing on one thing all the while they are disagreeing about two different dichotomies all together thinking they are on the same page.

I see your point about imagination being part of the physical, but in such a case it becomes the same objective reality as the reality you are observing through the senses. So the argument that only what you observe is useful looses meaning since there is nothing other than what you observe.
Sidney Bimmerhore - Tue, 02 May 2017 04:01:08 EST ID:2ASPviJg No.877227 Ignore Report Quick Reply
when people can't come up with a reasonable explanation for something they often substitute a superstition. very often their "reasonable explanation for something" amounts to little more that superstition. i'm about to post this now, i click the post button and then my words are on the internet! its magic!
Rebecca Brepperfuck - Tue, 02 May 2017 04:53:21 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877230 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Nope. You are full of bullshit. Or you are confusing what most un(der)educated people understand as science with actual science.
Jarvis Hunderhan - Tue, 02 May 2017 09:13:47 EST ID:LRbaWAF2 No.877238 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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The psychedelic experience is real. Our puny little brains can hardly comprehend reality and psychedelics allow our brain show us possibilities it could not otherwise. DMT is especially mysterious and that experience only inspires more questions than answers.

I really do not trust anyone that says they know anything for sure about reality and the nature of consciousness.
Albert Penningway - Tue, 02 May 2017 10:19:53 EST ID:plBVzlyh No.877239 Ignore Report Quick Reply

The day that naive antirealism dies will be a great day
Rebecca Brepperfuck - Tue, 02 May 2017 10:33:56 EST ID:z5rvLAcb No.877241 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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How can you know the psychedelic experience is real when you can't even comprehend reality?
Reuben Grandfuck - Tue, 02 May 2017 13:24:26 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877242 Ignore Report Quick Reply
This, hit the nail on the head.

Jesus Christ I hope this is bait. How much have you actually studied about neuroscience and the multiple theories of consciousness out there? Usually when someone says this kind of shit, they've neglected to research a thing and then defend their ignorance by saying if anybody pretends to even have the slightest clue about what's going on, that they're full of shit and their knowledge and opinions are worthless.

The fact you say "puny little brains" is both what makes me question if this is bait or, assuming you're serious, that you've completely foregone educating yourself because ignorance must be bliss when it comes to the psychedelic experience and altered states of consciousness. You desperately want or even need there to be a spiritual/mystical or weird fuckin astral element to what you're experiencing, by the sounds of it.

If you prefer mysticism to collecting and interpreting empirical data and formulating hypotheses based on that data and other relevant knowledge, then you're not in a position to condemn anybody's ideas. It's cool to discuss people's ideas, but trying to invalidate people's ideas when you've made no attempt to investigate what they've proposed or educate yourself on the subject matter beforehand is retarded. Telling people that if they pretend to know anything for sure about reality or the nature of consciousness that their opinion means fuck all to you is a tacit admission of your willful ignorance.
Thomas Gollerded - Tue, 02 May 2017 13:25:15 EST ID:tGc3y3TE No.877243 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I... No. Please no. Just... Use your noggin for five seconds, m80.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Tue, 02 May 2017 15:45:12 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877250 Ignore Report Quick Reply
lol you guys.

Honest to god these threads serve the only purpuse of cracking you up. Miscomunication rampage with a dash of emotion and you have yourself a hilarity.

ITT: people thinking they are talking with each other all the while just toiling uselessly.
Nathaniel Connerket - Tue, 02 May 2017 21:20:52 EST ID:tGc3y3TE No.877256 Ignore Report Quick Reply

What is anybody doing anywhere ever? Checkmate, atheists.
Martin Shittinghall - Tue, 02 May 2017 23:35:14 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877268 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>people thinking they are talking with each other all the while just toiling uselessly
I'm pretty sure you could describe your choice to continue living exactly the same way.

In this post: tripfag does stuff while still alive when in reality just toiling and struggling uselessly against his inevitable death.

Anything sound stupid when you put it that way, doesn't it?
Betsy Trotford - Wed, 03 May 2017 02:00:15 EST ID:RfkEO3z1 No.877274 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Oh yeah, but seriously though >>877242 was right about >>877238.

Sure, they might have given out a pretty big, borderline too harsh judgement of the person but honestly I'm getting tired of this idea that, "we don't know anything." Obviously it's incredibly likely that anybody now, or ever will know why anything exists, or what the ultimate nature or purpose of existence might, if there ever were, possibly be.

To claim one knows, "THE TRUTH," about existence is rampant butt-fuckery, BUT, that's not to say there isn't a grasp into likely concepts of the significance of this experience. Yes, it's ultimately personal. A person believes what they believe based upon their own experience, but the universe persists nigh wholly independent their beliefs.

Whatever the true nature of reality is IS the true nature of reality and is present in the structure of reality and can be observed and quantified. The point at which defining this reality through scientific and empirical methods is no longer observed irrefutably the most logical course is the point where we need to find some common ground so we can make global, objective goals for our species.

I guess. There be some dumb people out there.
Betsy Trotford - Wed, 03 May 2017 02:01:21 EST ID:RfkEO3z1 No.877275 Ignore Report Quick Reply

NB double post

>incredibly UN*-likely that anybody now, or ever will know
Shit Criffingspear - Wed, 03 May 2017 07:13:11 EST ID:hGg7tQjw No.877277 Ignore Report Quick Reply
"You can't prove it one way or the other" is an invalid way of arguing. We're trying to prove shit, ok? Give it time, we're getting there. But in the meantime, that doesn't give anyone an excuse to think up outlandish ideas with no facts supporting them and claim they're true. The starting point when considering anything that is unproven should be that it is FALSE, not the other way around. Out of all possible ideas that can be created by the human mind, the vast majority of them will be complete nonsense. The only theories that should ever be considered even remotely valid are ones based on observation and fact.

Current science doesn't hold the ultimate answers but it doesn't pretend to either. Scientists know best where the current limits of science are but it's an ever-changing, evolving discipline and it's the most reliable way humans have ever come up with to find out truths about existence. When science disagrees with something, you shouldn't immediately dismiss it but it should definitely raise a red flag considering all those times when science was right and brought goodness and prosperity to mankind.

I disagree. I think science is moving in a direction of explaining everything. It will probably never fully get there and we're a long, long way from even having a considerable knowledge of the universe, but that doesn't mean that what remains outside the reach of science can automatically be explained through the occult. I wonder how magic and spirits manifested themselves right in front of you. Were you by any chance going through a drug experience at the time?

When materialism is discussed, there are 2 main ways of interpreting the meaning of the word and you seem to be basing your post on the wrong one for the purposes of this thread. Capitalism has nothing to do with the kind of materialism people refer to when debates like this pop up.

Is this b8?
Martin Shittinghall - Wed, 03 May 2017 09:43:53 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877284 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Have to agree with:

You're basically describing "the God of the gaps" but replacing God as an explanation with the occult. The gaps are always receding and God and the occult become less and less relevant the more we learn.

Yeah, strictly speaking both "coexist", but you're stating it like they interact or have some kind of functional relationship to one another or something. You could make the same statement about any two things. Science and Brazilian Fart Porn are like Yin and Yang. They coexist, and what can't be explained by one can be explained by the other.

Obviously that shit sounds ridiculous, but that's exactly my point. Considering what the occult can actually accurately and effectively explain, you might as well make up some pseudo-intellectual rationalization for how Brazilian Fart Porn explains what science can't and it wouldn't make a difference.

The rest of your post about duality seems like you randomly through that bit in there to sound enlightened or something. Ever heard of the (legitimate) scientific study where researchers made a system for measuring the pseudo-profound bullshit statements Deepak Chopra makes? They defined pseudo-profound bullshit as a statement constructed mainly of buzzwords and that appears to be making a profound statement of truth, but in actuality nothing is really being said. Your statement seems to fit the bill.

Duality exists everywhere and in everything because our mind functions by categorizing and compartmentalizing concepts and information. Duality isn't usually divided into being one thing or being another so much as it is about something being or not being something. If it is not one thing it can be something else, but the duality exists strictly in the quality of something being or not being a thing. If you want to call science and the occult a duality, I suppose I could agree if you boil these things down to knowledge and the lack of knowledge (in other words, ignorance). So yeah, if you're admitting the occult is just supersitious nonsense born from ignorance, I guess I can agree with you on this point.
Fiend !!1C9jE+w+ - Wed, 03 May 2017 14:30:19 EST ID:zemaskId No.877290 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Woah. I was looking at this thread for days wondering how the hell to respond, or if it was a thread I should just not participate in, and you basically said everything I wanted to. Like I agree with a lot of the other people here too, but as an answer to OPs question, you thoroughly nailed it. I can't even yellow text because the whole first two paragraphs are spot on.
> I'm pretty deluded myself and I noticed that almost all of my delusions are just blown up versions of thoughts I would entertain when I was like 6
Even that. Like that is so my own experience with my own psychedelic fantasies that I like to entertain. I see what my brain was already looking for, or at least what it had a predisposition to see. This goes back to the pattern recognition thing the other poster said.

> The belief system itself is not a property of psychedelics imo, and it's not what psychedelics "do", it's a property of the people who do them, but establishing belief systems in general could be a property in people that psychedelics often amplify.
This. I could not have said it better myself.
Martin Shittinghall - Wed, 03 May 2017 16:07:37 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877291 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Fuck, idk how I missed that post. Definitely pretty insightful.

The way I see it is more based on expectation and (auto)suggestion. By comparing dream states (both lucid and non-lucid), hypnagogia, sleep paralysis/maintain awareness through REM Atonia, trance states/hypnosis, and altered states of conscious mediated by hallucinogenic drugs, a lot of commonalities surface and a more nuanced and intuitive understanding how perceptions, feelings/sensations, beliefs, and higher-consciousness thoughts function, arise, and interact with each other.

Hypnosis, hypnagogia (the state of being on the threshold of sleep), sleep paralysis, and dream states are all characterized as states of consciousness in which one is more open to suggestion (I mean the psychological process by which one person guides the thoughts, feelings, or behavior of another person... or themselves in the case of autosuggestion). This openness to (auto)suggestion allows for one's unconscious expectations to be guided/influenced. In states like these (especially all the rest besides hypnosis), expectation can be utilized to profoundly alter your sense of reality and can have you experiencing utterly convincing and at times, bizarre, sensory perceptions.

Altered states mediated by drugs are no different. The reason the brain is open to suggestion in those other states to begin with has to do with patterns of neural activity that are otherwise highly abnormal compared to waking consciousness. In the case of all the sleep related altered states, it's because certain structures in the brain go dormant while a few others have increased activity. When it comes to drugs, same deal.

Any beliefs you have or concepts you regularly think about (even just to scoff at) have potential to influence your sense of reality as a result of the susceptibility to suggestion. Normally the forebrain is capable of providing rational judgements and semantic context to thoughts, perceptions, and beliefs you have. On psychedelics, disinhibition and runaway excitation in sensory binding pathways and feedback loops that form in the two way networks between those pathways and the corresponding cortical areas (responsible for analyzing and interpreting various kinds of sensory input) leads to a variety of psychedelic phenomena. This includes a perceived increase in the significance, novelty, and profundity of one's thoughts, realizations, and perceptual experiences. It also produces feelings of interconnectedness, feels of wholeness and oneness, among all the other effects.

Given that, it's not to hard to imagine that conscious thoughts could cause cascades of runaway excitation that result in delusions. That's why, unless you're just inexperienced, gullible, ignornat, or otherwise just stupid, you can't take the shit you experience on psychedelics seriously, especially not if they feel like revelations about the nature of reality. Maybe it can be illuminating in regards to how the mind works or help you overcome a personal problem, but that's about it.

I mean, just think about it. Most people wouldn't consider the way you perceive reality on alcohol, or the hallucinations/experience you get from deliriants like diphenhydramine as granting one insight into the true nature of reality, and for good reason. You're taking something that alters your brain chemistry, that's it. Rather have you escape all your sorrows or experience dysphoria and primal terror, the drug makes you think random bullshit is profound and true. It's literally just one of the effects of the drug, nothing special is actually happening, lol.
John Fodgechud - Wed, 03 May 2017 16:59:05 EST ID:frt8rQ1A No.877292 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Which basically has the same result.
Betsy Trotford - Wed, 03 May 2017 18:07:03 EST ID:RfkEO3z1 No.877293 Ignore Report Quick Reply

>the argument that only what you observe is useful looses meaning since there is nothing other than what you observe.

Th re is literally nothing but perception. Whether you're seeing the light entering through your pupils or dreaming at night it is all nothing but what you are observing, and the dreams are based upon your waking observation. Everything ever is based on observation.

If perception did not exist then reality would be redundant.
Wesley Gubblestock - Wed, 03 May 2017 20:00:17 EST ID:oTnL97DC No.877295 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>The rest of your post about duality seems like you randomly through that bit in there to sound enlightened or something. Ever heard of the (legitimate) scientific study where researchers made a system for measuring the pseudo-profound bullshit statements Deepak Chopra makes? They defined pseudo-profound bullshit as a statement constructed mainly of buzzwords and that appears to be making a profound statement of truth, but in actuality nothing is really being said. Your statement seems to fit the bill.
Well, duality is in everything if you look for it. There's existence, and then nonexistence. Matter, and antimatter. Your opinion/ridicule of the things I have already observed doesn't concern me, for if you observed that 'world' with your own 'eyes' you would find it impossible not to believe that you've seen it. But you seem to have not, and that's fine as well. I don't find it necessary to convince you to do things the way I do them. But know that I have 'seen' that 'world', and before I 'saw' it myself, I would have ridiculed the very idea also, so I don't blame you for trying to make me doubt that I have seen what I've seen. I am not deceiving anybody. My statements are based off of that which I observed. And it's quite well known that one can enter the world of spirit through the use of psychedelics, as indigenous peoples have done for thousands of years. But what one will find there is experiential, the memories of which can't be carried back to this world so easily as time only allows for a certain amount of what you experience to be encoded to memory.

>Deepak Chopra
I don't know who that is, but if they're spouting bullshit so prominently, they're probably trying to sell you something.

As far as "enlightenment" is concerned, that's a bit of a buzzword, but also a very real concept. It refers to seeing the light, which can refer to literally seeing the Divine which is an 'entity' made up of pure 'light', which I have seen myself. Or it could refer to a sudden revelation of one's Way, or the answers to one's questions during meditation, both of which I have caught glimpses of. Enlightenment means nothing if you do nothing with it. But, again, your opinion of who you believe is or isn't enlightened doesn't concern me.
Rebecca Famblefan - Wed, 03 May 2017 20:12:57 EST ID:RfkEO3z1 No.877296 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Yeah, Deepak Chopra is like an Eastern version of Terence McKenna minus the drugs or something. It's pretty much just a bunch of hokey, overly wordy buddha-esque spirit mumbo jumbo about being enlightened.

Enlightenment is definitely a real thing, but I think it's a combination of a constant feeling associated with a slightly shifted pattern of thoughts.
Ernest Sicklewill - Wed, 03 May 2017 21:30:51 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877298 Ignore Report Quick Reply
First of all, I respect the fact you didn't get all emotional in response to me, good on you. I've been up for a day and pretty amped up on, well, amps. I've been being a dick.

Anyway, I've had a few experiences like the one you're describing, at least based on the vibe you're putting out. I've even had a few dreams that rival some of my most intense trips. They're qualitatively pretty different, but the experiences were rather spiritually/psychedelically themed and pretty transcendental. I just don't put any stock in the perceptions that I have that arise from altered states of consciousness because of what I know about how the brain and consciousness work.

Believe me, at the time I experienced these things I was utterly convinced in the reality of what I was experiencing. Even when sober I entertain the notion of some random mystic hoodoo bullshit because being open to stuff like that makes for a richer experience when tripping. That all goes out the window when I talk about concrete beliefs I have about the nature of reality, especially when discussing it with others.

You can't trust what you experience on a drug that functions by interrupting regular brain function, leads to profoundly abnormal neural patterns, and causes you to lose your mind. The very nature of what you're taking part in is to feel and experience things like these, it doesn't make them real. If you can't keep yourself from falling down the rabbit hole it's questionable whether you should really be using these types of drugs.

I mean, you realize your mind is constructing your entire reality, right? You're taking part in a simulated version of the actual reality you inhabit that your mind struggles to interpret accurately even when sober. The construction of your model of reality relies on a complex interplay of multiple networks of regular, synchronized neural oscillations that depend on regular feedback and proper inhibition, modulation, and potentiation of excitation signals to keep the regular synchronous oscillations from going out of control and completely corrupting your model of reality.

When you disrupt the regular function of a system, it follows that shit's gonna fuck up. When we're talking about a system responsible for forming your entire reality along with all of your perceptual experiences, you wind up experiencing crazy ass shit.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 05 May 2017 11:39:02 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877322 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The ultimate truth, at least the only thing that could be described as such IMO is just the existence itself and that simply means that everything that exists shares that quality, but it's extremely basic and wouldn't tell you anything IMO. All the other truths are just one of the infinite perspectives and as such they are equally true. Then there are perspectives with more momentum (in the physical world) and they are just hard to deviate from since we are so grounded in the physical world through our body. Like gravity it might be almost inescapable, but there are truths that aren't as fleshed out even if they may seem so and that's where observation serves less than imagination, because attention is intention and intention creates reality, where you focus is where your reality zoomes into.

I'm a simple guy, it's all about pleasure for me. I don't need goals for others as everyone has a unique set of desires and they are the only ones in power to fullfill them as they are the only ones in power of their attention IMO IME IMO.

BTW empirical methods of approaching life deal only with getting grounded in the physical(all this foreign being/energy which is not you) and that's not where your desires are fullfilled IMO it only serves to give you new desires and to reflect to you your current state by the law of resonance. Take away your attention from the physical and suddenly all that's left is you (which is the state that is equavalent to everything you desire). Now if you can be yourself and look at the physical world at the same time(it's only possible to a degree, because every moment you vibrate/be something other than yourself a new idea of what is wanted from that and what is unwanted from that is born thus you feel the unwanted also), it is reflected at you with all the delicious delicious details and intricacies..
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 05 May 2017 11:46:54 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877323 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Then how is empiricism better than fantasy in pragmatic terms as some folks seem to claim here?
Lillian Shakewater - Fri, 05 May 2017 12:52:09 EST ID:Tnfua633 No.877326 Ignore Report Quick Reply

You keep saying "physical" as if there is anything anywhere that is not physical.
!GOACID/XyA - Fri, 05 May 2017 14:15:09 EST ID:f37JQ+W7 No.877330 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Sometimes I visit /psy/ just to see how upset everyone is. It's like going over to a daycare and watching the same toddlers get into a tussle over who's Lego battleship is superior.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 05 May 2017 15:00:53 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877332 Ignore Report Quick Reply
let me put it this way. It's all non-physical except that the only non physical energy you are able to tap into is you (your source) and it's almost like the only way for you to tap into other non physical energies is by focusing on this body - everything that's going on inside it because through the senses your body is a medium to other non physical energies.

It's all just energy. physical or not it's the same, but if you withdraw from the body all you get is your nonphysical source and while every other physical thing also has a source energy which is non physical you cannot experience it unless you focus on your body. So what I call physical energies is the same non physical energy(call it all physical if you want makes no diff), but your only chance of getting a whiff of it is through your physical body which is a fleshed out zoomed in version of your non physical energy which is exposed to this big playground for the evolution and expansion of your desire aka source energy.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 05 May 2017 15:16:13 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877336 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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If that;s what you see sire.

I actually feel quite enlivened and amused by this. Good stuff it you ask me. And I was not really all that honest, I think this serves more than just giving kicks and laughs, you also get to examine your own beliefs and potentially share some new ideas if there;s smbd who's close enough to them to even let them inside their head / compare with what they believe.

It just appears that nothing of value is being produced because everyone is on very different pages on very different stages of the evolution of their understanding. But that's what breeds all the hilarity. And then every once in a loomg while someone comes who's on the same page and you get to learn and share with each other. Just win win win in every situation.
Hedda Fullydidge - Fri, 05 May 2017 16:02:43 EST ID:TzwKY8t4 No.877339 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I've been pretty shielded of the "new age bullshit" pretty well, because such culture seems very small / non-existing in this small country and my buddies have been usually very scientifically minded, non-believers to religions and some hippy stuff. It's kind of mind blowing to then read some books where someone tells about different kind of rocks and crystals and how they transform some energy into you and heal and all kinds of thinks that make you laugh. But I guess there are people who want to believe to that stuff just as there are people who want to believe to religions. Beliefes and placebo can have a huge impact on peoples lives though, so in a way those beliefs might "heal" them and make them feel better about themselves even if it bases on nothing that can be proven.

I met once a WoW player IRL and to my supprise he begun talking about god and vibrations coming from people as there were some real states and frequencies there that make up our moods and he had some power to control it. It was becoming annoying and some people overhearing didn't like him and begun to keep distance. I think he talked more crazy sober than most people deep in psychedelic trips. Was an interesting experience though.

I think it might be fun to collect some colorful crystal and rocks and talk supernatural stuff about it all, but when people take it seriously it really seems weird and extremely misleaded to me. Psychedelics can make people more subjectible to spiritual concepts and they might make their subconscious imagination as something real "more than in their head" going on. Some people just seem to have that trait so maybe psychedelics can make it bloom a bit like psychosis can occur if you have the trait. So maybe that's why some people seem to notice there is more bullshit in some psychedelic community than in some other community.

In my experiments I've felt very interconnected to the nature, animals and people, having some moments of feeling a perfect point where all is one, but, it's just that. I'm not religious so I don't see and feel gods when tripping. I'm also not a god myself but just another animal having fun in this cosmos with the ablities that I grew up with. If anything, my interest to science, psychology and neurochemistry has only deepened as in I spend more time studying about it and discarding the supernatural.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 05 May 2017 16:12:58 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877340 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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you know how people tend to wonder whether there actually are ferries and goblins and lepricons? Well I don't think those could all be just coincidences and that people just invented them out of thin air, there actually is something physical to it and I think I know what it is. The quantum physicists at the large hadron colider keep finding smaller and smaller particles to atoms and neutrinos etc and I think that they can be divided adinfinitum and that's what all those leptons electrons electricons and and high energy protons are - they are just some of those particles.

I hear they already found the God particle. Who knows, maybe the elves particle is gonna be next.
Cyril Clecklewater - Fri, 05 May 2017 16:41:12 EST ID:pwudOP8x No.877341 Ignore Report Quick Reply

did you legit just suggest that goblins are subatomic particles?

I mean I could tell from your recent posts that you're probably tripping right now so I'm just going to assume that.
William Clullerspear - Fri, 05 May 2017 16:54:38 EST ID:GEghrLao No.877343 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I'm on the same boat with you OP. I stopped talking these topics with them long time ago. I think it's about beliefs getting enhanced. I mean if you have a belief and you use any psychedelic drug, it becomes more grounded/solid. At least the person thinks it that way lol


and this multiply by more experience.
noko - Fri, 05 May 2017 20:46:47 EST ID:MmADteCh No.877345 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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which is actually quite contradicting considering psychedelic hallucinogens lower your ego and activity in the prefrontal cortex
Henry Bunridge - Sat, 06 May 2017 03:30:23 EST ID:pwudOP8x No.877349 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I think people construct realities based upon possibilities, and that anything which is not immediately made aware in plain understanding to the viewer as demonstrably false is instead considerably potentially true.

This kind of thinking can be exemplified I think when on probability over possibility. The likelihood of an event to occur is rendered moot point when the mere chance of possibility exists. Especially when compounded by hallucinogen use. A person becomes susceptible to derealization when they get stuck in thought loops or they trip too heavily too often. I've suffered from varying degrees of depersonalization/derealization on and off for a three year period related to heavy and chronic abuse of hallucinogens.

I know that this territory is heavily dependent on the individual, but I've personally experienced altered states where I felt susceptible to ideas created in my head based on spiraling thought patterns during trips. I've broken through, and been borderline breakthrough several dozen times and can attest to how very real thoughts or sensations can be at times. You have to be consciously skeptical. People always say to go with the flow, but that is not always the case, or even a possibility sometimes.

I know some people, mostly one in particular, who believe some nutty things based upon tripping. It's not healthy to actively perpetuate these beliefs which are based on unverifiable evidence, in fact all evidence points towards those beliefs being very obviously wrong, yet there seems to be either some level of delusion or wishful thinking which constitutes this desire to rely so heavily on faith and denial of various logical sentiments.
Nathaniel Handermet - Sat, 06 May 2017 04:44:58 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877352 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Well the way we imagine goblins are just a humanized version of what they really are. A certain quality of being that once you view through the human prism looks like a goblin. How else could they be recurring throughout the ages in all those cultures like that?

I dunno man, yesterday it sounded funnier than it does today.
Fuck Hinkinfat - Sat, 06 May 2017 07:50:10 EST ID:eDdaRyot No.877355 Ignore Report Quick Reply
they lower it in the duration of the trip though. So many people talk about "rebuilding" themselves after an ego death. this is my personal theory so obv no scientific backing, but I believe that's when your brain is in it's most moldable shape. You lose your ego, you lose all sense of who you are, but you have these thoughts, revelations, delusions that go rushing through your head while you are completely disconnected from who you are. You often discover a "truth" or big revelation.
If you were spiritually minded before, piecing yourself back together, focusing solely on the personal thoughts and feelings you might have, all that will do is strengthen these thoughts, especially as psychedelics are truly described as "spiritual experiences", even by some of the most atheist of people.

(excuse me as I'm not a psychology buff), but the mind has a certain plasticity to it. Call it muscle memory for the brain. You repeat certain actions, you repeat certain thought patterns, and you get used to it. It takes more effort to get out of these thoughts than to carry on with them. It's part of how chronic depression arises and why if people have been depressed through childhood often they will never fully recover. Spending years thinking certain thoughts will only strengthen your belief. Psychedelics kinda compress that. They also (again my opinion) throw your head into a more childlike state. Everything is fascinating, or terrifying. Emotions are wildly swinging about your head and you're often confused, but often in awe and wonderment. Everything seems novel.

By lowering that activity, it both allows new information to be accepted more readily (in the form of your crusty hippy friend talking about crystal healing) as well as reinforce existing beliefs when the activity is raised again. Especially as these drugs create thought loops (where the current theory is literally the synapses looping around in patterns that wouldn't usually be possible sober), having something repeated hundreds of times is a psychology technique to reinforce ideas, usually as a way of positive reinforcement (you can do this you can do this you can do this etc)

man I'm analysing this too much. 4th disclaimer that this is my personal opinion, I've never studied psychology deeply. What I'm saying could all be bullshit.
Hugh Tootridge - Mon, 08 May 2017 19:33:23 EST ID:/Ba+uHCB No.877406 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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There are a few interesting and insightful posts made here.
Of course getting all high and mighty LOL U GUISE JELLYMAD ME ALL GROWNUP BABBIES isn't good content. It's just shitposting

I'm pretty sure you would be the king of shitposting if we ever had a contest.

No bumping because i'm shitposting about a shitposter shitposting.
Hedda Nicklefield - Tue, 09 May 2017 08:28:22 EST ID:cysqQ//2 No.877412 Ignore Report Quick Reply

When I had my headphones on at my computer on LSD a few weeks ago, I realized that the electromagnetic interference from my phone sitting near the sound card was easy to hear. The sounds are impossible to decipher of course, but It's a little bit like listening to the ticking of a digital brain. The bleeps and bloops all correspond to some data in the phone's processor or memory somehow.
Thomas Grimgold - Tue, 09 May 2017 14:00:42 EST ID:5xFg624U No.877423 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I agree with this.
Graham Gugglemock - Tue, 09 May 2017 15:23:35 EST ID:8DJHycqb No.877424 Ignore Report Quick Reply
that's not...even remotely accurate
Martin Cinderfat - Tue, 09 May 2017 15:46:23 EST ID:iR+EyNZK No.877425 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Is this thread still going?

So, did we come to a consensus? Is the occult a bunch of malarkey? Is science just a useless bandage on the gaping existential wound? Will Superman reach the burning building in time to save Granny Bess and her three cats, Charlie, Kalo, and Jessup?
Augustus Blathershit - Tue, 09 May 2017 18:06:33 EST ID:5JhOVMMo No.877426 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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> i'm shitposting about a shitposter shitposting.
Shit Dreffingwill - Tue, 09 May 2017 18:09:16 EST ID:iz3L0b/z No.877427 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Can you please NOT shitpost about my shitposting that is directed at the usual shitposting of the great shitposter goacid?

God this chan has gotten so awfull with all of this shitposting... fucking the future

Fiend !!1C9jE+w+ - Tue, 09 May 2017 18:16:44 EST ID:j09k46bC No.877428 Ignore Report Quick Reply
To answer your questions in order: No.
Fiend !!1C9jE+w+ - Tue, 09 May 2017 18:18:29 EST ID:j09k46bC No.877429 Ignore Report Quick Reply
To answer your questions in order: also no.
Beatrice Nidgehall - Tue, 09 May 2017 19:59:00 EST ID:Di6ov95+ No.877432 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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You are a water bag full of chemicals that work together. There is a fuzzy global construct on how the chemicals interact, but nothing is perfect. When you add chemicals to the bag that mimic chemicals normally in the bag, the bag acts differently.

Drugs. That's about it.

The rest is 'culture' which is contrived and baseless and affected by drugs.
Matilda Brunkinsetch - Wed, 10 May 2017 14:29:37 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877450 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>Is science just a useless bandage on the gaping existential wound
this made me laugh

In all honesty I don't think that there is a wound even though I know what you mean. Existence is perfect the way it is.

The overwhelming consensus here seems to be that even though science cannot explain almost anything it the best way to arrive at truth.

MFW most people here don't even know what they themselves mean by science OR truth.
Fanny Cullerfon - Wed, 10 May 2017 21:18:33 EST ID:e4brKshK No.877458 Ignore Report Quick Reply
so you qualitatively understand, now give me predictions.
I like to play the game that I say I don't understand something until I can accurately predict its future state based upon its current state. math is usually necessary. you can start by looking up 'reaction diffusion model' and 'morphogenesis'.
Simon Humblehore - Wed, 10 May 2017 21:45:21 EST ID:uxKurzMM No.877459 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I'm not the guy you were responding to, but predictions about what? The end of the universe? The weather in three hours? What shirt I might choose to wear tomorrow?

The universe is practically made of math, as in mathematics can be used to describe it. That's how math even came about. Math is based off the structure of reality. If you knew "the equation," then you could in theory predict anything and everything. The universe is essentially a math equation. It operates like a set of dominos, cause and effect. The universe is however incredibly complex. A single strand of human hair is on average two million atoms in thickness. That is quite a lot of complexity to attempt to understand.
Priscilla Honeygold - Wed, 10 May 2017 22:03:16 EST ID:XWFrlpSx No.877460 Ignore Report Quick Reply

4/pol/ stormfags pls go to your home
Simon Humblehore - Wed, 10 May 2017 22:25:34 EST ID:uxKurzMM No.877462 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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U wot m8
Nell Gecklebut - Thu, 11 May 2017 06:53:14 EST ID:ufuw7LO5 No.877466 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Sure is a lot of low-level consciousness in here. Science has proven that black holes orbit protons, proving that the universe is just a hologram. I truly feel sorry for those un-awakened, but hope the best for peace and harmony amoungst your souls. Meanwhile I will be enjoying life and matter to the fullest extent, and letting the universe bring me what I ask for :)
Nell Grimhood - Thu, 11 May 2017 07:06:52 EST ID:zkaIgnv+ No.877468 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>no source
Sophie Smallwell - Thu, 11 May 2017 10:55:44 EST ID:vf6MdH8K No.877471 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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The universe brings you... THIS.
Hedda Bovingnitch - Thu, 11 May 2017 10:58:48 EST ID:/+gexCUG No.877472 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Literally anyone who thinks they figured out an objective meaning to th universe and think that their knowledge is complete is a retard
Dr. Katz - Thu, 11 May 2017 13:50:55 EST ID:ljoXF9ov No.877474 Ignore Report Quick Reply
the best we can do is have some abstract *idea* of what is out there and acknowledge our own inherent ignorances.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Thu, 11 May 2017 18:13:17 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.877483 Ignore Report Quick Reply
out there is within. know your reality well and you will know all reality well since you are all reality. By reality I mean what YOU experience. People categorize it to internal and external while all the external shit is actually made out of them they just separate themselves from it. Does a tree make a sound when it falls and there's no hearer near by? NO as far as I can reason.

All our beliefs are 100 % certain, you cannot be half pregnant when it comes to believing something.
Molly Febberfare - Thu, 11 May 2017 18:41:17 EST ID:vto361Il No.877485 Ignore Report Quick Reply

You said it backwards. We're made out of the external stuff, not the other way around.
Fiend !!1C9jE+w+ - Fri, 12 May 2017 00:07:09 EST ID:zemaskId No.877489 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Both. Either. Whatever.
Molly Buzzson - Fri, 12 May 2017 00:53:39 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877491 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Despite being made of the same basic things, your entire perceptual experience of reality is internally constructed. Discovering things about your external reality will always teach you something about your internal reality, but your internal reality can only teach you so much about your external reality. That's why there's a rigorous and methodical approach of discovery needed to make any kind of reliable assumptions about one's external reality.

Also, you're allowed to have beliefs about beliefs. In that way you can only half-believe in something that you choose to. I'm not stuck in believing something all the way or none of the way, lol. Use come common sense nigga
David Wunningshaw - Fri, 12 May 2017 01:42:07 EST ID:vto361Il No.877495 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Our perception of reality is based off of our brains perception. We're seeing reality with our brain, and our brain is made of this reality. We are reality observing itself. The things outside of us are not us, but we are made of the things that are outside of us. All hoodoo mystical faith based nonsense aside we are matter aware. Something about the structure of the matter in our bodies, and the bodies of other life forms, causes the bodies to become aware and able to observe and interact with other matter with the appearance of choice.

I think the important thing is that we appear to have choices. The choice seems to be an illusion considering every thing that will ever happen happens directly as a result of the arrangement of matter before it. The universe operates exactly like dominos. Someone might say, well I'm sitting at my computer, I can choose to continue sitting here, or I can CHOOSE to get up and run head first into the wall.

Wrong. It isn't a choice. You can only sit there or run into the wall because that is where you're currently located. If you decide to continue sitting there it's because you've concluded based on your previous experiences that you would rather not run head first into the wall. If you did decide to run head first into the wall it is because your past experiences led you to "choose" to do so. Even flipping a coin or picking one completely at random in your head outside of personal preference would be because your past experiences led to the reality in which you would like to what you end up picking.

That is to say that choice is purely man illusion. And me sitting here typing this out occured as a direct result of every thing that has occured prior to this moment in time and could not have happened any other way.
Albert Pockway - Sat, 13 May 2017 01:43:11 EST ID:1Xni6jah No.877533 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Yup, back when i tripped this hit me hard and its like being one of those asshats who consider themselves "enlightened" and took me a good year to actually break out of the trend without realizing i was in it.

Still think dropping psychedelics is good (even though i haven't done it since) but people really should talk about the dangers of ego ramp that can happen from it, of which this new age bullshit profiteers off of heavily. I ended up losing my best friend from it who's ego went out of control to the point he pushed everybody away from him.
Wesley Bunridge - Wed, 17 May 2017 16:19:54 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877715 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That was one hell of an inefficient way of saying "there is no such thing as free will, the ability to choose how to act is an illusion". Brain function is a lot more complicated and dynamic than that. It's still possible the universe is entirely deterministic in the way you're describing, but there is a real possibility that we're able to exercise some level of control over ourselves too.
Wesley Bunridge - Wed, 17 May 2017 16:21:45 EST ID:7OBsp/5q No.877716 Ignore Report Quick Reply
That aside, what did that have to do with what I said in that post of mine you quoted anyway? I was addressing how someone could, in fact, not fully believe in something that they believed in.
Hedda Shittinglock - Thu, 18 May 2017 03:29:52 EST ID:1d44m7uA No.877740 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I like you.
Henry Pibblepack - Thu, 18 May 2017 10:09:12 EST ID:+A8iDHxR No.877748 Ignore Report Quick Reply
What exactly is the "you" that's "able to exercise control over itself"?
Starting off broadly, all phenomena in this world, including you thoughts and actions, fit somewhere on this spectrum:

completely causally determined <--------> partially causally determined/partially non-causally determined <--------> completely non-causally determined

Causally determined means that things are exactly the way they are there are for a reason. In other words, something caused them to be the way they are.

Non-causally determined means that things are either randomly determined, with no cause, or that they are determined by "free will"

The middle of the spectrum is, of course, a combination of these two extremes.

Causally-determined and randomly non-causally determined are easy enough to understand. But then what about "free will" non-causally determined. If free will is not subject to causality, meaning the will generates thoughts and intentions without prior cause, then there is nothing that determines the thoughts of a free will. In other words that's like saying the free will has no influence from anything else, and generates thoughts at random. Clearly it isn't fully random, because the "free will" appears to respond to the world around it, and generate thoughts related to the world around it. So there is some causal component. The extent of random component is up for debate, but regardless you can see that the thoughts and intentions of the "free will" are either subject at least in part to causality, or completely separate from causality. To the extent that it is subject to causality, it is not "free" from causality. To the extent that it it is separate from causality, there is no cause to its changes and developments, and therefore it is random.

There really is nothing besides "causally determined" and "random". A causally determined free will isn't "free" and a randomly determined free will isn't a will.
As to whether or not randomness even truly exists, that's a different discussion.

tl;dr free will is a logically invalid concept because things without casual determination are necessarily randomly determined (because random is the opposite of causal) and there's no room for free will to find any ontological validity in that paradigm
Edwin Gammlefuck - Fri, 19 May 2017 17:21:11 EST ID:hGg7tQjw No.877778 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>but there is a real possibility that we're able to exercise some level of control over ourselves too

I don't think so. That would imply the brain has the ability to bend the laws of physics, which is a pretty huge claim. For free will to be real in the sense that we imagine it to be real, the brain would quite literally have to directly affect the fundamental forces of the universe. The brain is an amazing and complex organ in some ways, but in others it's really primitive and not very impressive at all. I mean, it's not even smart enough to understand itself, let alone change the laws of physics.
Rebecca Suttingkack - Sat, 20 May 2017 01:19:54 EST ID:XlefAAn+ No.877792 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Give em a strong dose of /dis/. That'll throw the whole hippie BS for a loop, at least it did for me.
Don't get me wrong, I love psychs (and hallucinogens in general), but their powers extend only as far as your own brain.
Alice Hammerfoot - Sat, 20 May 2017 06:31:05 EST ID:oX/tsb+u No.877797 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Tbh I think its people taking their own imaginations too seriously, they experience something amazing and think its got to be some magical chakra shit.

Dont get me wrong, I fucking love my imagination and the stuff you experience in your own mind has no less meaning without all the mystical BS that you might hear.

Using spiritual terms can be a good way to describe your experiences and the art, music or whatever else comes with this stuff can be really awesome too but its important to know the difference between reality and fantasy.
Fucking Pittforth - Sat, 20 May 2017 07:33:59 EST ID:+A8iDHxR No.877800 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>its important to know the difference between reality and fantasy.
And what is that difference?
Isabella Billingford - Tue, 23 May 2017 16:47:34 EST ID:97QlBc20 No.877909 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I think this very question is one of the central things psychedelics force most people to examine. What is the difference between the waking moment and sleep? What's the difference between sobriety and tripping? If you look closely, you can see aspects of tripping which are very present in everyday life. At the same time, I think many of us have experienced "ultra-reality" or that weird nagging feeling when you're tripping that what you're seeing is the ultimate REALITY, or the true truth, whatever you want to call it - as if you're more sober while tripping than you ever were while sober. It's a very strange thing, tripping, and I think all of us benefit from asking that very question - what IS the difference between fantasy and reality? Can we ever know that our reality is truly "real"? In all honesty, our eyes perceive a very slim range of light frequencies, our ears perceive a fairly slim range of sound frequencies, our sense of smell is extremely weak compared to even most other mammals, and our sense of touch... well, actually, i don't have any data comparing our sense of touch to that of other creatures, but I do know that we fail to perceive a number of tactile sensations which we come into contact with daily (think microscopic particles landing on you, or all the Staphylococcus crawling around on your skin, bacterial movement within our gut) and hell, I remember doing an experiment in my anatomy lab showing the limits of human ability to discern two different tactile sensations at once (something about being poked on the upper arm and then touched with a marker somewhere fairly close by - when one area is stimulated via touch, the brain tends to ignore smaller touch-stimuli around it). My point is, we're open to a very slim perception of the world, and where our perceptions start to get blurry, our brain usually makes shit up, quite literally. Sometimes when I'm extremely tired and I stop paying attention to a song I'm listening to, I'll actually hallucinate lyrics that I know 100% aren't a part of the song. Or think of how you might see movement in the corner of your eye and turn around and absolutely nothing is there. It's really interesting to look at the limits of human perception, and the way our brain tends to fill in the blanks. In a way, psychedelics put you in a state where your brain is very free to distort your perceptions or send you information that isn't necessarily real - anyone ever sit in a room super fucked on acid, and other people are watching TV or youtube or something and all the sudden you hear one of the cartoon voices distinctly refer to you by name? Or people are talking and you stop paying attention and all the sudden they're talking about you? I'm talking super high doses here, where the line between fantasy and reality is pretty much imperceptible. These sorts of experiences give psychedelic users the chance to really explore that line, and change the way they see themselves, others, and the world around them.
Molly Fupperham - Tue, 23 May 2017 21:04:06 EST ID:aPEl4ahG No.877929 Ignore Report Quick Reply

The difference is that fantasy subsists out of reality. Reality is the penultimate. You would not even know the dream world existed were it not for reality.

Basically, go stab yourself in the foot with a rusty knife and then try to dream your pain away. Let me know how it goes.
Beatrice Bavingforth - Wed, 24 May 2017 23:06:13 EST ID:QUJt2yQf No.877996 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Psychedelics do break down normative patterns of thinking, leaving people more susceptible to considering alternatives. However, that in itself is not the reason people turn to new age beliefs. I'd say that's due to a combination of ignorance ABOUT science and ignorance IN science.

Ignorance about science is the easy one; if someone doesn't know jack shit about science, they'll believe any bullshit about it that sounds vaguely scientific to actually BE science.

The ignorance IN science is more difficult to deal with.

There is nothing perfect about science as a way to find out about the world. This is not at all controversial - the "elephant in the room" that is the problem of induction is well understood in the philosophy of science. Of course, it doesn't matter because science isn't necessarily interested in epistemological totality (a.k.a the "theory of everything"); all it needs to do is create functional models of empirical phenomena which allow variables to be controlled and predictions to be made, even without any guarantee that these models are "real" (look up Imre Lakatos and his notion of competing scientific programs for more information). The problem of ignorance, then, comes from the overwhelming number of participants in scientific discourse who are completely in the dark about the underlying philosophical assumptions of their trade. These followers of Scientism believe that science IS describing reality, often with a religious zeal and an equal amount of denial when presented with evidence against their "faith".

Adding psychedelics to the equation, you will get people who are ignorant ABOUT science looking at people who are ignorant IN science and rejecting their way of being as a normative cultural science cult, so to speak, as well as other normative expressions of spirituality. They then turn to the salient alternatives, which often happen to be new age tourist traps designed to make money off those seeking existential certainty. This rejection is most often only partial, and a certain acceptance of science remains despite the rejection, leading into the familiar state of cherrypicking those often extremely flawed ideas which fit into how they want the world to work in their head.
Frederick Becklefene - Wed, 24 May 2017 23:58:55 EST ID:hXvTPDGk No.877997 Ignore Report Quick Reply
but pain is an illusion bru, your pain has no physical existence.
Martha Churryson - Thu, 25 May 2017 00:21:57 EST ID:aPEl4ahG No.877999 Ignore Report Quick Reply

I hope you were joking.

Literally everything ever anywhere always for all time and space ever is physical. Your thoughts, your emotions, your pain.

Pain is the firing of nerves. Your thoughts are literally physically existing inside of your brain as patterns of firing neurons. Your emotions are electrochemical reactions in your body.

If something is not physical then it does not exist. For reference, there is not some magical void inside of your head where thoughts occur, there hundreds of millions of interconnected neurons firing in complex patterns which are literally physically your thoughts
Priscilla Sembleman - Thu, 25 May 2017 08:47:36 EST ID:+A8iDHxR No.878009 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>Reality is the penultimate.
Just fyi this means "second-to-ultimate".

But anyway, you can feel pain in your dreams too.

I'm not saying reality doesn't exist, because basically we define reality as what exists. What I am asking is where does reality end and fantasy begin? If fantasy is rooted in reality, as all things that exist must tautologically be and as you expressed yourself, then fantasy is reality, isn't it? What makes something fantasy or not-fantasy?
Edwin Currystetch - Thu, 25 May 2017 12:01:58 EST ID:xeVOOKp5 No.878014 Ignore Report Quick Reply
if im being totally honest, i believe it's because too many stupid people take psychedelics and they cant separate themselves from their experience, so they try to map it to reality vs. mapping their knowledge of reality to their experience in a "psychedelic state". That coupled with a new-found rave-psych culture that fosters these people gathering and meeting in large numbers creates a hive mind of ignorance and a closed loop of the same information/ theory/ political ideology naturally nudges these people closer and closer, to the point that they are friendly outside of these settings and become more and more influential on each others lives creating a vicious cycle of pseudo-intellectual-psyched-out dribble that promotes conspiracy theory and willful ignorance to science, news, right and wrong, and even the nature of reality.
Priscilla Sembleman - Thu, 25 May 2017 12:08:02 EST ID:+A8iDHxR No.878015 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Maybe you just have a deleterious outlook.
Martha Churryson - Thu, 25 May 2017 12:25:00 EST ID:aPEl4ahG No.878017 Ignore Report Quick Reply

If you have to ask somebody what's fantasy and what's real then you might be dumb.
Ebenezer Menkinstock - Thu, 25 May 2017 15:28:04 EST ID:9u60s4B9 No.878024 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Reminder that reality doesn't exist outside of experience and that fantasy vs reality is a false dichotomy
Martha Churryson - Thu, 25 May 2017 16:32:12 EST ID:aPEl4ahG No.878025 Ignore Report Quick Reply

No shit you wouldn't know anything existed if YOU didn't exist. Because you wouldn't exist therefore no reality. That doesn't mean that dragons exist just because you think they do. That doesn't mean you have telekinesis because you take a lot of drugs and deluded yourself into thinking you have magical powers.

I should have figured the dumbasses would come out in troves with this thread.
Martha Churryson - Thu, 25 May 2017 16:53:27 EST ID:aPEl4ahG No.878026 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Reality is defined by your perception, but the universe exists independent of your perception and your beliefs. Imagined things are a subset of reality.
Emma Clirrywore - Thu, 25 May 2017 20:00:07 EST ID:97QlBc20 No.878032 Ignore Report Quick Reply
yes, it's physically caused. but what about the experience of it? you can measure electrical pulses between neurons, so in that way it can be directly observed and proven to exist physically. similarly you can measure someone's brain waves and prove that their is brain activity, and you can test someone's blood for hormone levels. but none of that correlates to the individual experience of those things. you can't measure the experience of thoughts, you cannot directly measure the experience of pain, et cetera. So in that sense, you can call these things illusitory - because you, the individual, can only ever experience them for yourself, and the experience cannot be directly shared from one individual to another.
you'll have to forgive me, i'm mostly arguing semantics but i think it's fair to say that what we are talking about is philosophy and a large aspect of philosophy is semantics.
Phineas Geblingnedge - Thu, 25 May 2017 20:10:01 EST ID:aPEl4ahG No.878033 Ignore Report Quick Reply

Explaining things to people here would be a lot simpler if they had at least a basic understanding of developmental psychology.

If you could build a human from scratch piece by piece using loose cells then they would be no different from a human who was born naturally. Matter operates like dominos. We are biological machines, just like how a computer is a non illogical machine. Our thoughts and feelings are literally completely physical, just how software literally physically exists on a hard drive, ram, and CPU. It is all physical.

There is no evidence to support some kind of ghost in the machine. Zip.
Awe' God !!vVWR8L52 - Fri, 26 May 2017 03:18:03 EST ID:lNZjvjql No.878047 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Jezus lol
Barnaby Drishmit - Fri, 26 May 2017 06:19:34 EST ID:+A8iDHxR No.878050 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I used to take the dichotomy for granted, but now it's not so clear to me.
Well, why don't you try to explain anyway?
Barnaby Drishmit - Fri, 26 May 2017 06:31:02 EST ID:+A8iDHxR No.878051 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>you, the individual, can only ever experience them for yourself
This relies on the idea that there is such a thing. It seems to me that the we're all embedded in/integrated with the rest of reality and the idea of ontologically separate "individuals" is illusory.

That anon wasn't arguing against cause and effect/physical dominoes. And the cause and effect/physical dominoes model doesn't preclude there being an "experience" on top of it, which is what they were saying: that there's a mechanistic physical world that gives rise to an experiential mental world.

Personally though I don't believe in a hard dichotomy between physical and mental. They seem to be made of the same thing. So rather than saying the experience of this world is illusory/not real, I would probably say the experience of the world and the structure of the world are the same thing, or something close to being the same thing, or something like that.
Charlotte Fongerpeck - Wed, 31 May 2017 03:10:23 EST ID:OKYHqAys No.878179 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Basically this.

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