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GUINAN'S HEADCANON GENERAL by Guinan - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 00:45:40 EST ID:RHNGWoY0 No.57642 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Hi there. This is Guinan. I spend a lot of time listening to people talk about all kinds of shit, and also I make some pretty great drinks. But today, and hopefully every day until I get sick of it, I'm going to do something else.

First off, I'd like to explain. When I think about what really makes this place special is that the way memes blossom is in headcanons. I've been listening and over my years here I've heard some interesting headcanon, I'd like to share some. For many, these headcanon(s) will be familiar, mostly

For those who have not yet trekk'd all of the Star trek there is to Trek beware, for spoilers abound:

1In Star Trek Generations, Picard enters the Nexus. We are made to think that he leaves, but as I imply in my (Guinan's) dialog in the movie, no one really leaves the Nexus.. that is of course how I get (at least some) of my temporal powers which helped in episodes such as Yesterday's Enterprise. The truth is that any thought of leaving the Nexus could lead to a complex hallucinatory fantasy of leaving it, only coming to realize it was all an illusion.

Therefore all the TNG movies are hallucinations in the edge of reality in the planes of existence where man becomes Q and action picard was just jean luc's way of coping with the death of his family line now that his brother and nephew were dead and he was without child

2Unless Wesley was actually Picard's bastard child and he 'accidentally' put Beverly's be-stallion'd husband into harm's way to get rid of him

3Also in regards to the Nexus, someone in another thread once revealed to me the most glorious of truths, that Kirk's exploits against 'God' in Star Trek V at the center of the galaxy were actually a nexus fantasy

4Whenever there's a captain's log entry that's only a voiceover while the ship flies past the camera, the captain is actually taking a shit, that's why they changed it from the more formal 'blog' that had been used for several centuries to the archaic word-form 'log', as an immature joke allowed due to its history in earthen naval tradition

5Data and Lore were switched during the episode Datalore. At the end Data uses a contraction; earlier in the episode, Lore reveals he can use contractions whereas Data 'cannot'.

This is why 'Data" was able to lie to Riker in 'All the Best Toys' and why he was also able to attempt to kill that douchey collector guy, when we see 'Lore" again, he's been floating in space a few years and then gets picked up the crew of the Mondor. Yes, Pakleds. The crafty retards that look for things to make them go. Naturally after all this time, the original Data goes mad, while the original Lore is able to settle into Data's life in such a way that he's able to commit to turning over a new leaf. Meanwhile OG Data goes apeshit and dreams of a hypertechnocyberpunk future in a Borg/Android alliance


V'ger's machine planet is the race that became the Borg after their encounter with the Voyager probe rocked their worldview, forcing them to realize they were artificially created autonomatons.. they had always believed themselves to be a product of evolution... they began to assimilate organic races in a desperate search for their creator.

All of Star Trek Enterprise is a holonovel modified by Riker to be more exciting. He only uses this program when he doesn't feel like having sex with something and he plays as the chef, which is why you never really see him until the last episode. The characters in ENT and some of the events were a historical part of 'Trek, but probably the whole Xindi thing came right outta Riker's ass

While we're on the matter of headcanon I've always thought of a few other things as well: any movie with Whoopi Goldberg in it is actually (technically) a part of the Star Trek universe because Guinan was on earth in the 1880's and may have stayed for centuries.. she isn't seen again until Generations, and when that happens she's near Earth. If Guinan is in the new series, the math doesn't make sense for her to have been able to travel back to Delta quadrant, she musta met up with that refugee ship or something. Therefore any movie with Whoopi Goldberg in it is actually Guinan in disguise as long as it takes place between 1880-2276

Finally, I'd like you all to add any common, uncommon, or previously unspoken headcanon here in this thread for all the soon to be coming newfags so that they may conform to our ways
>>
William T Riker - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:12:37 EST ID:KikjBBjU No.57644 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>All of Star Trek Enterprise is a holonovel modified by Riker to be more exciting.

Then he sucks at modding holonovels.
>>
Weyoun 4 - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:45:12 EST ID:dV0i2NZn No.57645 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57642

  1. Yes.

2. Yeah.

3. That was me. Really.

4. haha

5. I dig this. I also heard once that Lore floated in space for 50000 years, then went back in time when able, and became data, or lore, or b4.

6. Historical fiction holonovels make a lot of sense. My dad is super into WWII crap, sometimes with extra bad guys, like the Peruvians or something.

7. Jumpin Jack Flash and Burglar are now Star Trek films. Got it.


Additions:

France was destroyed in WWIII, the France/Paris we see is a complete re-creation.

Picard is speaking French the whole time, we hear the UT.

Paris and Locarno are the same dude.

Reed and Mayweather are secret lovers (thanks 1701)

Valeris was fucking Kirk and Spock. Think about it.
>>
Helena Rozhenko - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:39:43 EST ID:UKKS3Tki No.57646 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Most people don't buy this one but Spot has died at least once. Spot was a male initially but had kittens later. Maybe that cat died in an accident, maybe it was a of Mice and Men type affair. Maybe O'Brien teleported one or more Spot's into space. Regardless the original cat died. Data doesn't feel emotions and so to fill the gap left by the loss of someone familiar he simply replace the dead cat(s).

Harry Kim gets promoted to Lieutenant Commander on arrival back to earth. Or at least fast tracked through all the box checking he needs to do to get to Commander. Tom Paris remains Lt JG until he dies.

Someone else's explanation: "But Humans are Doc Brown". I have a feeling it's tumblr but it makes perfect sense. You can google various reposts of it. We have REMOVE HASPERAT and they have that. But yeah that one's a good one.


>>57642
I don't believe the holonovel one for a lot of reasons. I know you said "when he doesn't want to have sex" but that's like "when he doesn't breathe" with Riker. If Riker was doing it, he'd have fucked EVERYONE twice. Even Reed would be cheerier. Then again while Riker has many talents, he's a mediocre musician and I suspect not much of a writer. He doesn't image, he does. So maybe his holonovels just suck. I think this one has quite a few flaws but also quite a few very strong points.

However the captain's log one is amazing and that is now how I will interpret such scenes in every instance in future. Thanks based Guinan.
>>
Lt. JG Ayala - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:29:40 EST ID:OikXj97p No.57647 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I always do wonder when the captains make their supplemental entries. especially during times when the ship is under attack or something. Doing it while they're taking a piss makes the most sense. Except for Data.

...Does Data even know what a bathroom is?
>>
Lysia Arlin - Fri, 13 Jan 2017 00:41:56 EST ID:NUbxvEoE No.57649 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57646
>Most people don't buy this one but Spot has died at least once
I always assumed there were multiple Spots not only because the first Spot was a completely different type of cat than the orange tabby he/she usually was. I mean I think the joke is that there were a lot of Spots due to experimentation and/or retard strength.
>>
Ishka Moogie - Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:49:17 EST ID:n8McU5oH No.57654 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57649
Spot's a timelord, duh.
>>
Guinan - Sat, 14 Jan 2017 23:47:39 EST ID:RHNGWoY0 No.57661 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57645
>France was destroyed in WWIII, the France/Paris we see is a complete re-creation.
This is a great explanation for Jean Luc Picard's apparent cultural mismatch

>Picard is speaking French the whole time, we hear the UT.
This is another competing great explanation for Jean Luc Picard's apparent cultural mismatch

>Paris and Locarno are the same dude.
This is like the most essential of all headcanon I don't know how I forgot to include it, thank you!

There's also a darker version where you listen carefully to Paris' backstory & realize that he killed all the other members of his squad in a flight accident, not one. That means that the Nick Locarno mismatch was a Picard Nexus fantasy existing only to hide his grief of seeing Wesley and all the other members of that flight squad die in Starfleet Academy. The Nemesis wedding scene and the episode where Wesley goes off with the Traveler to explore time, space, and homosexuality seem at first very mismatched, until you realize that these too must have been the result of Picard's dreamlike Nexus trance, these were only fantasy.

>Reed and Mayweather are secret lovers
Makes a lot of sense tbh fam.. maybe they were planning a season 5 reveal

>Valeris was fucking Kirk and Spock. Think about it.
This made me lose my shit.. I think I might never see that movie the same way again

>>57646
>>57649
>>57654
>Most people don't buy this one but Spot has died at least once. Spot was a male initially but had kittens later.
>I always assumed there were multiple Spots not only because the first Spot was a completely different type of cat than the orange tabby he/she usually was. I mean I think the joke is that there were a lot of Spots due to experimentation and/or retard strength
> Maybe that cat died in an accident, maybe it was a of Mice and Men type affair. Maybe O'Brien teleported one or more Spot's into space. Regardless the original cat died. Data doesn't feel emotions and so to fill the gap left by the loss of someone familiar he simply replace the dead cat(s).
>Spot's a timelord, duh.
I always just assumed Data kept accidentally snapping their necks when he was petting them or kept crushing them when he was trying to run a tenderness simulation.. or maybe it's just when he picks the cat up, if it squirms at all he can't help himself, he just keeps tightening and tightening his grip, snarling back his android teeth, yelling "Stop. Stop! Stop‼ STOP‼!" until suddenly tearing the cat in half laterally with mechanical precision in a single gory instant. I figure something like this happens every few weeks.

>>57646
>Harry Kim gets promoted to Lieutenant Commander on arrival back to earth. Or at least fast tracked through all the box checking he needs to do to get to Commander. Tom Paris remains Lt JG until he dies.

Even in the future of Voyager when he's captain, he's only running a ship that's slightly larger than a runabout...

>However the captain's log one is amazing and that is now how I will interpret such scenes in every instance in future. Thanks based Guinan.However the captain's log one is amazing and that is now how I will interpret such scenes in every instance in future. Thanks based Guinan.
lol good

>...Does Data even know what a bathroom is?
He's probably been told he's not allowed in there because he keeps loudly exclaiming the exact dimensions of everyone's genitals when he lays eyes on them
>>
Jonathan Archer - Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:06:25 EST ID:2CjFaDB+ No.57664 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Shit, I've been contemplating making a thread like this.

The Viidians are not one race, but a collection of different races who have all contracted the same disease. This is why we see them as being spread out over a giant part of space, and why they have all this advanced technology. They are a reluctant Federation formed by people who have been shunned by the rest of the universe. Most likely the early reactions to the Phage were wholesale quarantines of planets, so the Viidians don't really give two fucks about harvesting the people who spurned them for organs. Once they have contracted the Phage themselves, they are taken into the fold.

I feel this makes a lot more sense than them being one race, because we've seen multiple times that the disease can jump between species. Hell, that Trek diseases in general jump the species barrier. And they're all so disfigured that we can't tell their original species. So when we see Denara Pell's hologram, we're not seeing "a Viidian without the Phage". We're seeing someone who isn't a Viidian at all. Furthermore, I think this being jolted out of the common consciousness made her the kindhearted person who saved Janeway and Chakotay, and that previously she would have harvested the crew for organs without thinking twice about it.
>>
Jonathan Archer - Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:12:07 EST ID:2CjFaDB+ No.57665 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57645
>Picard is speaking French the whole time, we hear the UT.

And O'Brien gave him an English accent in order to fuck with him.
>>
Gaila - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 00:15:46 EST ID:suZL5IcY No.57666 Ignore Report Quick Reply
For as long as I can remember, I've pretended that whenever RHNGWoY0 posts, 420chan affixes the name Guinan and a picture, and that she is actually Guinan. It's a warm feeling.
>>
Gor - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:17:40 EST ID:N1v2Vs8N No.57675 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57661
>>57665
with regards to France, I am of the opinion that Britain never gave it back to the French after rescuing it after the Germans invaded it during ww3
>>
Chairman Koval - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 21:24:01 EST ID:gSDiiXnb No.57676 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57646
>Most people don't buy this one but Spot has died at least once. Spot was a male initially but had kittens later. Maybe that cat died in an accident, maybe it was a of Mice and Men type affair. Maybe O'Brien teleported one or more Spot's into space. Regardless the original cat died. Data doesn't feel emotions and so to fill the gap left by the loss of someone familiar he simply replace the dead cat(s).

This happens in the TNG Recuts by Grin, spot ends up dying and then data is shown ordering "Spot 74" from the replicator.
>>
Guinan - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 00:34:28 EST ID:RHNGWoY0 No.57678 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57666
If you keep it on the down-low, I'll let you into my cargo canister in cargo bay 3, that's where I keep all the good shit
>>
Third of Five - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:06:16 EST ID:MUJ4M6tq No.57679 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57678
I guess that explains how a barrel broke Worf's back
>>
Guinan - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:21:29 EST ID:ef2hX2Yo No.57687 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57679
It's some section 31 level classification but I heard that happened because we were transporting an alien diplomat who had a bad history with Klingons and he threw the barrel

..His name was Donkey Kong
>>
Ardon Broht - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 16:46:36 EST ID:rEWOPOwx No.57688 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57678
My silence for space heroin? DEAL
>>
Lt. Joseph Carey - Thu, 19 Jan 2017 20:28:42 EST ID:L3E9v1HE No.57716 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57642
Holy shit so much good in there op. But I'm not gonna lie, I disagree with a lot of it. But I love that you've got me thinking about it. As far as it goes I think a lot of the trek universe could be a dream in the nexus. Things diverge in a weird way from that point onward, so its far from outside the realm of possibility.
>captains log
Never gonna see that the same way again though. lol

Do love the idea that the borg are looking for their creator. That makes the whole thing make a lot more sense. The borgs motivation always seems so limited. But if they where looking for their creator it all adds up. God bless you guinan you've given me a lot to fucking chew on here.
>>
Kes - Mon, 23 Jan 2017 21:56:20 EST ID:ZpwdGY74 No.57743 Ignore Report Quick Reply
People sometimes wonder how we as a species somehow evolved beyond our differences in culture and biodiversity to become a western-themed unified people that collectively joined into one nation with one goal, and dream that we as a species will do so with the natural progression of time.

And yet, every other species we've encountered in the stars is mostly unicultural and uniracial, barring extreme exceptions like Remans and Romulans built on millenia of control. We have 'black' Vulcans, sure, but the odd Tuvok does not a subspecies make. So why is it that we, Federation supreme we are, able to accomadate humans of vastly different racial and cultural makeups, AND unify with hundreds of other species across the galaxy, who in turn are mostly genetically similar to one another? Can we simply not see THEIR racial differences? Are we really just destined to find commonality and overcome our petty racial lines?

The answer is of course: No. Not just no, but hell no. EVERY race besides ours has had, in some point of their history, a planetary racial purge of all but one dominant ethnic group, and it is through this planetary unity that they were able to achieve FTL travel. All species are destined to compete racially before they achieve the unity of race needed to devote their cultures inwardly to star travel. Those that avoid this racial extermination often destroy themselves first by acheiving the technology to destroy each other and not the technology to unify themselves. Except we got lucky.

2. The events of World War III and the Eugenics War gave the species the tools to perfect genetic engineering through technology similar to our modern-day CRISPR. Khan Noonien Singh and his merry band of misfits were a prototype for the true perfection of the process, and 31 NGOs and thinktanks came together in the wake of the war with the now-banned technology, and decided that the divides of the human condition required genetic tampering to force out of the species through long-game engineering. These groups merged into many of the world recovery efforts, and injected drugs that altered the brain chemistry and physical inclinations of civilizations worldwide towards western ideals and basic white IQ levels. Not just cultures, but the biodiversity of humans were altered so that all humans held the mental intelligence and lack of racial mistrust that built most interplanetary species up to what they become. Genetic engineering for supermen came to be transformed into a superculture shift, so as to better allow interplanetary cooperation, at the expense of non-western cultural norms, and non-white mental identity. Over the course of 100 years, doubled with the arrival of Vulcans, Section 31 remade humanity and explicitly turned the human species into white western europeans in all but major physical appearances. The grand glorious dawn of human cooperation in the wake of total war was constructed by Section 31 (the collective name of this force) in a way that any modern SJW would revile in horror at, but it worked.

3. Since the federation has existed, member species too have been altered to fit the Federation existence over time, albeit with some cultural differences and the obvious genetic templates in check. The ban on genetic engineering as an explicit thing humans can do publicly and individually is to prevent the revelations of their collective genetic tampering, and also to avoid individualist movements in the greater collective. Genetic tampering on the black market is mostly filled with monkey on typewriter level hack work based on the perfected formula, and leads to Bashirs or basketcases. The latter is left as warnings to the collective, the former are usually scooped up quickly by Section 31.

tl;dr The Federation is based on ethno-nationalism and CRISPR technology taken to logical conclusions, with long-game Borg-style undertones, and for all our platitudes and dreams of Star Trek, humans aren't going to be able to cooperate like the Federation does unless we brainwash the species or we kill everyone until only one group remains. Jared Taylor was right.
>>
Guinan - Tue, 24 Jan 2017 00:28:56 EST ID:wvFGPKIO No.57746 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57743
>Kes

Heh heh

Seriously though this kinda hit me in the feels because in a lot of ways it resonates with the current zeitgeist of racial/cultural tension in the West and makes me worry that we as a species will never achieve the kind of future we see in Trek because we simply won't make it through the "great filter". That's what Trek is all about, after all, dreaming of a better future, of mankind after it started to grow up, but there's still a good chance we might be snuffed out in the cradle. I hope not,but looking at the modern day, most of the social and political structures that exist on a global scale aren't about the betterment of mankind but rather power, resources, and dominance, even if on the surface they resemble the ideals of the Federation, they are almost exclusively rotten to the core with a level of corporate greed and hunger for wealth that would give most Ferengi pause.

Here's hoping we can make it to sipping root beer on Terok Nor
>>
Kes - Tue, 24 Jan 2017 10:49:16 EST ID:ZpwdGY74 No.57755 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57746
Well honestly I've stopped seeing Star Trek humans as an ideal to achieve, but rather the sum of the fears of the 60s being drawn out to a larger conclusion based on what we've revealed of our own timeline. They feared eugenics and nuclear power, they saw socialism as inevitable, they saw the racial tensions and wanted it all to be sorted out. But what has come about? Nuclear war has not only been avoided on all sides, we're almost at a point where anyone who would pull that shit could be countered. We've discovered there is some Lamarckian elements to genetics that Darwinian Evolution doesn't wholly cover, and we've discovered CRISPR and none of us are looking at making humans into superhumans but rather 'hey can we use this to fight cancer'. And while I've submitted to the idea that some cultures and paradigms need to be glassed off the planet for all of us to be better off (*cough cough*Islam*cough cough*) and our racial tensions are more than simply context but a genetic code of self-division to define our own cultural tendencies and accepting human biodiversity for what it is, most nationalists (including myself) when pressed just want their own states and to have better relations with their neighbors, not to crusade and kill and rule the planet, that's too much drama and larping, meritocracy is what we always wanted but everyone wants to put their damn hand on the lever. The human condition as we are is still shades of all-sorts, but on the whole, self-preservation and cooperation in the best paradigm is our core. For the world of Star Trek, humans got to depths I don't think we would let ourselves get to. Nations destroyed each other, humans devolved to using their principles as games for pleasure, and in this newer revelation, so did every other species in the galaxy.

If I were in charge of Star Trek this revelation wouldn't be framed in the despair you might think, but into the context that Section 31 feels that the radical inclusion it forced on humanity is the only way galactic conflict can be avoided in the future. In a future where the gap between 'we've explored the galaxy' and 'we have the technology to bridge other galaxies and keep exploring' has hit a wall in warp travel, and the only means of surviving this paradigm is to either dominate the galactic species pool (Read: eliminate ALL the other big players in the Milky Way) or expand the inclusion to the radically xenophobic and dangerous races like the Dominion or the Borg, and since the latter is 'impossible' (read; no it's not) preparing the Federation for a new Crusading paradigm is a better step. I'd have it be sort of a ten-year revelation to a series that, facing some bigger threat, had to radicalize and weaponize, and find that the threat has been built in a long game to turn the Federation into what it is, and have the Captain of the Enterprise, for his convictions, turn away from total extermination despite being aware and accepting of the consequences. That he understands what Section 31 warns him, of that inevitable decay to follow, to follow in the decline of the T'kon and Iconians before them, to be replaced and forgotten.

BUT in a series tied to Romulans, fate luck and suffering are also elements of the story. Section 31 built a planet that was going to be more cooperative but still isolated and egotistical, what really expanded its horizons was that cosmic luck that we encountered the Vulcans on that first fateful FTL jump. When you think about it, it really is a deus ex machina resolution to humanity's problems, even with the context of being set up to work together. But the Romans our Romulan enemies were based on had a belief that all of life is predetermined to suffer, as that suffering is an inevitability, and all the fates can do is provide repsites of luck and favor amongst the grip of reality's tragedy. And given that religious interpretation, cosmic luck dealt us a Royal Flush. So then it'll happen again, and despite all this fear of the unknown, at the end of everything, the fragmented unity the Star Trek world is left with gets opened up to pan-galactic travel with a new means of connection. Some advanced Iconian gateway, Wormhole technology is perfected by seemingly unconnected advances, the Q decide to do the Federation a favor, who knows. Even when it seems hopeless, and fate is consigning us to decay, we'll go on somehow because there's no better hope to believe in than that we'll all make it to tomorrow somehow, regardless of the sum of all our fears.
>>
Alexander Rozhenko - Tue, 24 Jan 2017 13:23:35 EST ID:TJx6CT+d No.57756 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57755
On the topic on biodiversity and racial tensions, I wonder if there is some sort of "gene" out there that determines whether or not someone can easily relate to someone who is different from them. Maybe there's some genetic factor that can cause people to be able to relate or communicate to people who are different from them. Like you have one person who can relate to the ingroup more, and you have one person who is able to relate to the outgroup more. The former can be useful for controlling their respective groups while the latter can be useful for cross group communication vital for the survival of said group.

I'd imagine that basically all of the Captains lean towards having the "outgroup" gene due to the nature of their work. That doesn't mean that people with the "ingroup" gene are super duper racists or anything, just that they're more or less doing work assisting their own group/species in the Star Trek universe than out exploring the galaxy and interacting with groups different from their own.

It does get really tricky when you try to define what qualifies as a group. In Star Trek, the group indicator is what species they belong to like human, Vulcan, etc. The real world is much more complicated as the lines are so blurry to the point where it's outright paralyzing.

I'm pretty sure I'm wrong seeing how I'm a college dropout NEET with no actual academic knowledge on anything at all.
>>
Commander Morag - Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:14:46 EST ID:syC+oe3F No.57762 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57755
Why would a Nazi even like Star Trek in the first place? Here's an idea; instead of re-writing the motivations of every single character and organization in the setting to fit your twisted world-view, maybe just watch a different show? Tolerance and diversity has been a basic theme of the show back to the very first episode.

Why do other planets seem to have racially homogenous cultures? Because the writers were lazy, and also we don't know what cultural divisions we are glossing over. The Vulcans, Andorians, Romulans and Klingons all have significant divergent subcultures or ethnic minorities that are brought up at some point or another. Also, we see enough visual diversity to assume they must have genetic sub-groups.

To assume that this must mean the only logical course for an advanced civilization to follow is to engage in massive racial purges is your own twisted fantasy and has nothing to do with either reality or Trek. That in order to move into space a people must put beside basic prejudices and learn to work together is repeated so often as to become trite, but apparently you hear that and assume it must mean the exact opposite thing.

Seriously, there's a difference between a headcanon and doing your damnedest to believe something is saying the opposite of what it's actually saying. But you're probably one of those people who watches Star Wars and comes away with the message that the Sith were right all along.

In reference to sensible, interesting headcanons mentioned in this thread:

>>V'Ger was made by the Borg in some fashion
Shatner actually wrote a novel with this as a plot element, mainly so Kirk could worm his way into TNG-era shenanigans.

>>Picard is actually speaking French
Can't be, since Data makes a comment when Picard uses a French phrase to the effect that French is an ancient language no longer in wide use. My assumption has always been that thanks to the internet, English becomes the dominant and eventually only commonly spoken global language, and since France would be heavily influenced by UK culture, French people eventually learn to speak English with British accents. When other 'French' people show up with fake Frenchy accents, this kind of fucks up that idea, but also contradicts Data's statement (why would they have an accent from a language they don't actually speak?) but fuck it, it's more important to explain Picard than bit parts.

Here's some of mine, I looked for these and didn't see them but sorry if they actually were already mentioned:
>>Along the line of Paris being Locarno, Kira is really Ensign Ro. (i.e. a character from TNG whose personality and personal history were mostly cloned to be a main character in a spin-off but changed as to avoid paying royalties to the writer from the TNG episode.)
>>The Borg are humans from the future who traveled back in time (supported in some non-canon sources)
>>The Q are humans from even farther in the future keeping a close eye on their history (us) purely out of desire to preserve themselves (i.e. Q gave Picard the All Good Things riddle as a kind of tongue in cheek joke to himself, because keeping Picard and the humans alive and on course without doing something that destroys the timeline is exactly the same kind of pre-destination riddle the Q themselves are trapped in.)
>The Metrons, the Day of the Dove-spirit, 'Jack the Ripper' and all the other 'light-bulb' beings we see in TOS are Q or entities on a similar path of evolution as the Q (like we see occur in 'Transfigurations.')
>>The people from 'The Chase', Sargon's people, the Dyson sphere builders, the Progenitors, and the Iconians are all the same dudes. One all power primeval race is enough for me, k thnx. Hey, while we're at it, maybe these dudes are humans from the future, too, creating themselves and all life by reaching backwards at the end of time as the Q in a pre-destination paradox that spans all of galactic history.
>>The Travelers and the El-Aurians aren't part of this plan and are travelers from a genuinely different universe, which is why the latter distrust the Q and why the former are so concerned with helping humans see beyond the limitations of the universe -- an attempt to free them from their own self-created eternal prison.
>>
Admiral Maxwell Forrest - Wed, 25 Jan 2017 20:44:49 EST ID:2CjFaDB+ No.57766 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57762
I don't know, you're not selling me on the idea that people like the Klingons achieved some sort of enlightened unity. Those guys definitely committed a couple of genocides, and in TOS they're openly talking about mass executions.

Of course, you could also take a page from your own book and see that Kes' attitude in context with the world, and the different context in which Star Trek was made. Frankly, I don't think it's that weird that Trek's future seems more impossible today. The spirit of progressiveness that runs through Trek seems to have been gradually washed out of progressive politics. Or maybe it wasn't ever there to begin with. After all, there have always been unironic communists, and they have always been terrible people, which is why I fucking hate it when people say Trek is communist and try to drag it into their ideological camp. When the TOS Klingons ordered those mass executions, they were channeling communism, and that was exactly the point.

There's no shortage of space Nazis in Trek, and the show itself cautions against dismissing them without question. That message is also at the core of Trek.

And Kes isn't wrong about one thing: Humanity we see in Trek, and by extension the Federation, is not multicultural. They are, essentially, Western. We see mostly Western people, who expouse Western values, and it's only gotten worse over the years. In TOS, there were only two Americans, a Scotsman, and Japanese man, a Russian man, and an African woman (I don't know where Uhura is from, but she speaks Swahili). In TNG, most of the crew is American and expresses American culture. DS9 is a little more diverse, also because they have a lot of aliens with strong cultures on the crew. We have an American Captain, an Irishman (with a Japanese wife), and a Brit. But Voyager and Enterprise basically forgot other cultures exist. Sure, Hoshi is supposed to Japanese, but honestly it's not visible.

As I've noted in another post, whenever the TNG crew runs into people they consider to be part of the Federation, they are immediately held to high standards. This is part of their monocultural nature, and it's a far cry from the understanding attitude they take with outsiders. They basically dictate an entire people how they ought to reproduce in Up The Long Ladder, though it's a terrible, and terribly offensive episode.
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Guinan - Wed, 25 Jan 2017 21:42:45 EST ID:RHNGWoY0 No.57770 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57762
Actually the actress who played Ro turned down the DS9 role so this one is legit, they created Kira out of the ashes of what Ro could have been

And the internet-making-everyone-speak-english idea is badass, good catch with the occasional French words, also Picard gets all his kiddos to sing Frere Jacques or however you spell that in the episode Disaster
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Groundskeeper Boothby - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 08:02:26 EST ID:UKKS3Tki No.57776 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57766
In TNG of the major characters there's only a few earthlings. Admittedly though you've basically got a bunch of westerners and one Japanese bitch, oh and of course Worf's family is Russian. But I think some of this is down to Western writers writing what they know. Sometimes you just have limits to what you can portray. I think you're putting a lot of writer weakness down to the setting. ENT has the weakest writers of course but that does have a unique culture in it, it has the spacers, ensign whassisface has spent most of his life traveling around at warp 2.5 or whatever and has the unique culture and experiences of a dude who has been on ships in motion most of his life. Because FTL is faster later on the culture ceases to exist. But for a while there are spacers and that culture is expressed.

The klingons absolutely never did achieve a unity I agree. But look at them. Within 100 years of the humans being in space they'd been leapfrogged, by 2500 they had begged to join the federation. Their infighting was a weakness.

The theme of the federation is unity but when you have open acceptance and communication it's natural cultures homogenise. No purge needs to happen. I spent a lot of time playing MMOs and regret it but I learned one thing. People are the same. Be you white, black, British, Lebenese, American, Norweigian, Turkish, Danish, Swedish, Spanish, Argentinian, when you get into a situation that removes culture effects people are the same. Not as individuals but any given group that's big enough has that same mix of useless retards and good players, of team players, of social players, of people who are good but fun, of ones who suck and make no effort outside raids either. And being on MMOs the biggest thing was most of them were ill adjusted weirdos regardless of race. Anyway those people developed their own culture based on gaming and the groups they played with. The future of culture is a single memetic hublander culture with small pockets of micro cultures, groups that have a few variations or whatever based on aesthetic or value choice rather than background. ie you join them rather than are born into them. Eventually we will all be beige. It doesn't require nazis for this. It just requires enough generations and the passage of time with free intermingling.

A different Sci Fi but Niven nailed it. You make everyone have rapid transport across their world cheaply and everyone will homogenise. Culture probably before genetics because information travels and is connected more easily than DNA. The federation in star trek TNG is approaching a memetic hublander state, it's going to be a bit longer before it's genetic as well.

Also Up the Long Ladder has an entire race trying to force members of their crew to reproduce against their will by cloning. The federation says "No you can't" "if you care that much about survival there's this option". If the cloned race had refused to fuck they'd have let them go extinct but they knew that they put their survival above human rights so they'd take it. That's not forcing. It's like saying "do you want to have this cake or die?" you're not forcing people to choose cake, it's just clearly the better choice for most people.
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Kessick - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 11:39:16 EST ID:syC+oe3F No.57777 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57766
Well the thing about the TOS era Klingons is that if we look at all the canon sources in detail (ok, most of this comes from the ENT Augment storyline) is that they are clearly a divergent culture from the Klingons we see in the rest of the franchise. In the non-canon material we learn about how, after the augment virus took hold and those superhuman conquering genes wormed their way in to the Klingon culture, the Klingon empire stopped caring about honorable war and conquest and instead decided to become full blown expansionistic fascists...kinda like the original superhumans in the Eugenics Wars. Sometime between S3 TOS and TMP the augment virus is cured, and that's when the path to peace begins between the UFP and Empire. Worf even talks fearfully at one point that his people will again return to these old ways.

So really, the ultra-fascist Klingons of TOS era are really just a dark mirror of human impulses, and have little to do with Klingon society. There is also nothing communistic about their depicted society -- they have poverty, so they aren't post-scarcity ('we are poor systems in the Klingon worlds, and must expand...') and rather than government decided jobs, they have a caste system (another case of divergent subcultures, as also in ENT we learn how the warrior caste has been progressively trying to take control over and drown out the influence of the other castes -- which is presumably what has happened by TNG era) all of which makes them totalitarian for sure, but not communist. You need to deprogram that totalitarianism = communism lesson that was drilled into your head in school.

I do, in fact, see Kes' attitude in context with the world very clearly, which is why I so strongly oppose it and any attempt by the very present real-world modern day fascists to colonize Star Trek, one of the few media franchises which is specifically inoculated against such an ideology.

So yes, there are a ton of space Nazis, and they are an important part of the franchise, (in fact, you could say that they exclusively face different flavors of space Nazis, as you could characterize the Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Cardassians, and Dominion that way) but only because they serve as a perfect foil to what the Federation is, not an example of what it should become. And even as totalitarian as those cultures are, there is still evidence within each of them of enough diversity to suggest they never had any kind of racial purges -- and if they did, why were they never mentioned?

As to Earth humans being mostly Western... well, yeah, of course. Western culture has already conquered the world, in case you haven't noticed. Western culture has only done so though because it is a kind of meta-culture; it has at it's base the concept of learning about other cultures and integrating them into a stronger whole. Notice we don't say British or French or Greek or Italian culture...from the very beginning the cultural movement which might be identified as 'the West' was created by combining different cultures (originally, the Hellenistic combination of Greek, Egyptian and Near-Eastern cultures, which were absorbed by the Roman, and then spread and absorbed all the Gallic/Germanic) and again in the real world I think the internet provides a useful example of how over time culture just saturates everywhere it can get to as long as that culture has multi-culturalism as a part of it's root and can integrate with the cultures that it absorbs (>>57776 also touches on this well.) That's a perfectly natural process and we see it happen in the Fed even as they induct new worlds. It's a far cry from mass genocide to enforce a concept of racial purity across centuries.

As to the TNG crew holding up Federation members to Federation standards...I don't see what else you would expect them to do? Rogue human colonies aren't covered by the Prime Directive, but they are also Earth's responsibility, meaning not just that they can clean up their messes, but that they HAVE to clean up their messes.
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Lysia Arlin - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:55:48 EST ID:2CjFaDB+ No.57778 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57777
You're putting the cart before the horse. The ENT explanation for the Klingons came up 40 years after those Klingons were first introduced. It's part of the same narrative structure, but not of the vision that spurred it on. The original Klingons weren't a people tragically waylaid by genetic engineering. They were Klingons, as klingons were intended to be. Cruel, scheming, and totalitarian. Yes, they were a mirror of humanity, but that's because humanity made Star Trek to reflect on itself. All aliens in Star Trek are mirrors of humanity. But in context, their behaviour has everything to do with Klingon society.

Klingons are also a standin for communism not because their political structure resembles communism (we see very little of it, in fact), but because their behaviour does. TOS is absolutely filled with episodes that are thinly veiled allegories for the typical jousting between the US and the USSR. A Private Little War, Friday's Child, The Omega Glory. And every time, there are the Klingons in the role of the USSR. Though, that's not to be said that something like the presence of poverty excludes a society from being communist. Most of the time communist nations are exceedingly poor. Whatever ENT had to say about them 40 years later doesn't influence the reflection of the times they were when TOS was made. If you want to discuss the message of Star Trek, you can't warp through time like Kirk looking for a whale to hump.

>You need to deprogram that totalitarianism = communism lesson that was drilled into your head in school.

Are you a true believer? I do appreciate the irony of you denouncing that it's a totalitarian system while plainly telling me what to think. No, I do quite associate communism with totalitarianism, and given that I'm from a cozy, left wing, European welfare state, I can assure you there was no imperialistic propaganda in my school. No, I arrived to the conclusion myself, through simple observation. Though, the fact that my family was chased on three different continents by communists intent on murdering them also has something to do with it, I suspect. I consider that to be quite an adequate sample size. But honestly, I think it's quite a open and shut case that communism is totalitarian. It's a system that desires total control over the state and the individual. In fact, you yourself just said that one identifier is the government assigning one's job.

The TOS Klingons weren't very fascist, though. As you said, totalitarian. But there was no real presence of fascism. They followed a nebulous political ideology that simply resulted in totalitarian behaviour. Kind of like how the Federation's inner workings are also hidden, but we are shown what they result in. In fact, the TNG Klingons are much closer to fascism, with their open warrior culture, the emphasis on (external, group-driven) honour, their strongman type leadership. And in fact, they follow a very similar path, with the vicious infighting and backstabbing seen in fascist power structures. You caution me about the use of communism, but I'm very much getting the impression that you're just calling things you don't like "fascism".

But my point wasn't that there is some grand struggle against fascism "colonizing" Star Trek (really? that term? how about communists, then? I've heard more than one claim that "Star Trek is communist"). My point is that people voice certain viewpoints -even if they are objectively wrong or awful- they typically come from a well-reasoned standpoint. And quite clearly Kes has thought a lot about this. Star Trek itself constantly speaks out in favour of understanding those standpoints, even if they are impossible to reconcile with.

Look, you don't have to come at me with the purge theory. I don't buy it, and it's only interesting as a deconstructing thought exercise, because I buy into the TV show theory: Star Trek is a TV show, with limited resources, and preserving those resources means glossing over certain obvious things. Nobody expected the show to go on for as long as it did, so suddenly you have fans pouring over the details for 50+ years. Though, that said, the Vulcans and Romulans *do* mention their racial purge. How many proto-Romulans could they even fit onto those early warp vessels? What happened to the rest? The difference in phenotype is easily explained by the Romulans belonging to a typical ethnic group, and it's obvious they are no longer extant among the Vulcans. See, this is why it's interesting food for thought. Obviously never intended by the writers, but the again, neither were Data as a model for autism, or Worf as one for second generation immigrants.

I wouldn't be so quick to state that Western culture has conquered the world. Western technology has, yes. But cultures remain wildly different, and probably *will* remain wildly different. I don't think the Niven global culture is very likely, personally. We've already seen a remarkable unification of culture thanks to technology, but it's a far cry from what you propose. The dialect in my own village might have died out (also thanks to state meddling, as modern logistics also made that easier), but the culture has not. In villages around here you can still get glassed at a party if they hear you're from the city. Or so I've heard. I've never been to those villages. National and regional cultures in Europe are still very idiosyncratic, and that goes double for anything outside the Western world. just because an African tribesman (and that includes more than just the people in reed huts) speaks English and uses a smartphone doesn't mean he actually thinks along Western lines. And these people certainly do not dabble in multiculturalism. Hell, that's controversial topic in the West, and more political ideology than broad cultural trait. Point is, the high degree of Westernism in Star Trek is beginning to seem unattainable. And compared to TOS, it's even regressive. Uhura was the last African in Star Trek, which is honestly kind of weird when she was also one of the first proper black characters on TV.

Amd sure, I understand that the Federation needs to police its territory. But the point is more esoteric than that. What I'm talking about is an expectation, for the crew, that this sacrifice should come naturally to these people. The Federation seems kind of surprised that their citizens would not act according to the Federation ideal.
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Guinan - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 20:51:04 EST ID:Vx4bkDMe No.57779 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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I just wanted to tell you all I love this thread.. arguing and all, it's just great to see what an amazing fractal magic mirror roscharch blot star trek is.. we all see so many different things I'm it and for me it's great listening to all of them

But it also doesn't hurt that the more listening an ElAurian does the more powerful we become
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Third of Five - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 21:37:53 EST ID:5vKDPBZM No.57780 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57779
Use that space kung fu on Q in the next series please.
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Molly O'Brien - Fri, 27 Jan 2017 16:49:48 EST ID:syC+oe3F No.57784 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57780
Seconding an appearance of Guinan in a near future Trek production. If Star Wars can make bajillions of gold pressed latinums by churning out nothing but complete fan service garbage, why can't Trek just give us what we want, plz?

So many of the actors from the TNG-era are still alive but won't be for long, just put aaaallll of them back in front of a screen and we will give you our latinums for ever CBS, plz. That's my favorite headcanon for the day.
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Belongo - Fri, 27 Jan 2017 18:28:18 EST ID:dV0i2NZn No.57785 Ignore Report Quick Reply
enterprise is a cooking sim
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Guinan - Fri, 27 Jan 2017 18:36:16 EST ID:RHNGWoY0 No.57786 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57785
>enterprise is a cooking sim

you really can;t put it any better than that


>>57780
>>57784

I will be making an appearance in Discovery. Screencap this post.
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Turanj - Fri, 27 Jan 2017 21:05:20 EST ID:NUbxvEoE No.57787 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57784
>So many of the actors from the TNG-era are still alive
They really should make a TNG/DS9/VOY era animated series with some or many recurring main characters. It would be a better way to make a clean break from Abramsverse while making the fans VERY happy while also giving the studio something they have proven to be successful (original cast involvement).
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Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Sat, 28 Jan 2017 06:52:35 EST ID:7HWy+zYr No.57792 Report Quick Reply
>>57787
Yeah maybe they can have animation as uninspired as the original animated series, too.
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Jossen - Sat, 28 Jan 2017 08:37:54 EST ID:2CjFaDB+ No.57793 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57792
Well, they had to shop around for someone willing to take on a cartoon version of a cancelled series, that was also cheap, and also didn't want to turn it into your typical saturday morning cartoon. If you think TAS is bad, just take a look at the RoboCop cartoon, and imagine that with a Trek twist.
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Harry Kim - Sat, 28 Jan 2017 12:44:16 EST ID:zsuUhNCG No.57794 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I don't know if this qualifies as headcanon or not but I think that Troi actually outclasses most pureblood betazoids in terms of her empathic ability. A lot of the other betazoids featured in the show don't show any apparent skill in telepathy/empathy, but Troi can read peoples feelings from orbit or the feelings of people who are in ships however many kilometers away.

I've always had this notion that she was deliberately handicapped so that she was strictly empathic just so that she wouldn't break every plot, but her actual skill level is very high and she is perhaps a prodigy.
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Mordoc - Sun, 29 Jan 2017 16:21:41 EST ID:2CjFaDB+ No.57807 Ignore Report Quick Reply
The Ocampa are not a naturally occurring species. Maybe they were, once, but the Caretakers twisted and moulded them like the Founders did the Vorta and presumably the Jem'Hadar. This is what accounts for the short lifespan and unnatural breeding cycle. The Caretakers are obviously highly skilled, given that they abduct people from across the galaxy to turn into viable mates. And they obviously don't understand breeding, because they can't even do it themselves. The Ocampa and their weird culture are probably influenced by the Caretakers just not understanding humanoids in general. Their short lifespan might just be the result of the Caretakers using them like guinea pigs. Maybe building the perfect Ocampa society means they just need a short lifespan now, so the Caretaker can experiment.
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Phlox - Sun, 29 Jan 2017 18:48:08 EST ID:ZpwdGY74 No.57809 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57762
>Here's an idea; instead of re-writing the motivations of every single character and organization in the setting to fit your twisted world-view, maybe just watch a different show? Tolerance and diversity has been a basic theme of the show back to the very first episode.
Maybe if 'tolerance and diversity' weren't so duplicitious and run by people gleeful at the consequences of a race's dispossession I'd consider the proselytizers as NOT scummy people. I'd call you a Stalinist but I'm sure you wouldn't get the irony, so I'll just say I can watch enjoy and speculate on whatever I goddamn want.

But we aren't even talking about me, so let me help you dissect the alternate interpretation of what I was talking about; Star Trek future is not an ideal any more, because we surpassed it. We WERE better than them, we DIDN'T go to World War 3 and Eugenics purity spirals, we developed technology the Trekiverse never dreamed of. The humans of Star Trek, before Star Trek was Star Trek, were a more violent emotional beast than we ever became, and it took what sanity they had to collectively mentally wash themselves to avoid the fate of their brethren.

My headcanon is a deconstruction of the megamyth that Star Trek IS an ideal paradise, (it's dogmatically devoted to nihilist neutrality, it instructs cultural control of emotion and ambition for the good of the government, it provides a world without wants, but no purpose for being beyond to explore on their terms) and the darker forces that would have to prop such a thing up. But it is not to make these men devils, but to make gods men again. The worst scene in all of Star Trek, to me, was the prideful Riker standing mightily above his Ferengi foes and a 'supernatural being' finding him good. The ultimate propaganda of some cosmic decision 'THIS GOOD, THIS BAD'. The peak of Star Trek arrogance. And the best was the one where Sisko stirred his glass and thought 'I can live with it'. That for all the fluff and decorum, all the pompity and splendor, the Federation was made of men who made choices to do the right thing no matter the cost. And when the right thing needed the wrong thing to happen, the Federation human was not so arrogant as to will the planet to change for him. You don't need a cult to be a few good men at the right moment in time. He was no God, he was no Evolved Human. He was average homo sapiens.

And average homo sapiens, despite wars, and famines and plagues and trials, conquered itself, and the stars. And what is the context of us? We have no magic unity, and I don't want some fantasy space collective either. But space is still our final frontier, and we only need grasp it now and grasp it hard. Because if the 'humans' of Star Trek did it, we can do it even better. And we don't even need your socialist shit to do it, we're that fucking awesome.
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Guinan - Fri, 03 Feb 2017 05:30:18 EST ID:RBrhM1cO No.57871 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57645
>Picard's speaking French

in season one of tng, there's a moment where data inadvertantly insults the French language in front of Picard and doesn't understand why it's offensive.

further, in the episode featuring the bynars from the same season, Picard actually switches to French.

there are also interspersed moments of Picard using French canned phrases and profanity here and there.

if he's speaking translated French, these moments are senseless.
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Dr. Lewis Zimmerman - Fri, 03 Feb 2017 10:18:43 EST ID:ixgYIBpK No.57872 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57756
>I wonder if there is some sort of "gene" out there that determines whether or not someone can easily relate to someone who is different from them.

There's tons of things in human genetic code that relate to that. The capability for empathy has evolved for this purpose and others. The theory of mind is a more general topic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

>It does get really tricky when you try to define what qualifies as a group.
Groups are really just abstractions to make thinking about other people easier. Working with people requires a common goal and enough trust to believe the benefits of working together outweigh the chance of getting fucked over by working with them. So you have abstractions like close family, extended family, tribe, friends, and citizens of the same city, state, country, etc.

From an evolutionary, and therefore genetic, perspective the "purpose" of every piece of genetic code is to cause that genetic code to be replicated. This leads to a shared goal and trust when it comes to relatedness. Half of my genetic code is contained within my sibling and my parent. Any energy I expend to benefit their survival pays off at a half rate of doing the same thing for myself, everything else being equal. Since they have the same relatedness to me I can make certain generalizations on this group and assign trust. It would not make sense for them to hurt me unless it benefited them more than half of what they hurt me(assuming rationality and accurate calculation on their part of course). You can extend this out to tribe in a straightforward manner. I'll call tribe a group of people who commonly interbreed. Bigger group less interelatedness less common goals(shared genes) less trust as you extend. These tribes tend to look different and it is a genetically programmed survival skill to determine what the characteristics of your tribe are and how to determine who isn't one of your people. This is the evolutionary basis for racism and the genetic code has been shaped by this force so genes must exist that perform this function.

As you get in to citizens you have mutual interests and non-zero sum games where cooperation is rewarded. Survival of your country in a war for example will probably benefit all those groups which share more closer genetic similarities and cooperation will lead to more copies of your genes. There is an evolutionary incentive to cooperate in these matters and the genes follow. This is the genetic basis for intertribe cooperation.

You can also imagine that people from the same country are more likely to be genetically similar than people outside of it due to common ancestry and interbreeding. On a trek related note interplanetary conflict puts you ag ainst a very genetically dissimilar group and given the panspermia episode where it is discovered some ancient aliens went around spraying dna everywhere so that most galactic species share a common dna source you can see another genetically related group.

So you can see a lot of conflicting forces come in to play. Genes aren't simple though. They only encode proteins and those proteins and the presence of the environment act to influence many behaviors. For example sickle cell is considered a disease but may be a defense against malaria. I think I remember reading blue eyed people are more likely to be alcoholic. White people are more likely to get sunburned and therefore get skin cancer but are able to better use sunlight to produce vitamin D. It may not be possible to modify the genes related to intergroup cooperation without changing something else and even if it could turning someone in to a PLUR machine would make them gullible just as the other side of the spectrum would lead to someone paralyzed by paranoia.
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Jannar - Fri, 03 Feb 2017 10:20:15 EST ID:dV0i2NZn No.57873 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57871

Explain why some Klingon words and terms are not translated by the UT.

K'Plah
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Jannar - Fri, 03 Feb 2017 10:24:17 EST ID:dV0i2NZn No.57874 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57809

This is a great fucking rant, btw.

nb.
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Chulak - Sat, 04 Feb 2017 08:01:47 EST ID:ZYIEvzVd No.57876 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57809
I take issue with your first statement.

Tolerance and diversity are concepts. They are not run by people. You are confusing people who claim to be acting for those concepts with the concepts themselves. I can claim to be whatever I want but my actions only really tarnish that group if they have anything to do with it. Tolerance and diversity should be about putting up with people being different if it doesn't hurt anyone who isn't giving informed consent (and yes I know there's nuance but lets keep this relatively brief) a lot of the people you are taking issue with do not do this. And no even the majority or their opinions doesn't matter. If you change the definitions of tolerance and diversity then when most people here idealise the federation they are using the old definitions which don't suck. No one can do everything they want without impinging on others and utter freedom is an illusion of course, but the idea of seeking to find as decent and fair a compromise as you can for a many people as possible.

Season 1 TNG is clunky as hell and prideful riker and Sun Tsu is a bit silly. I like the deconstruction of the way the ferenghi are portrayed throughout DS9. Most of them are decent people. Their culture had some idiosyncracies and this is why it changes at the end of DS9 but I don't doubt for a moment that it will still have it's own flavour. The craziest thing about the ferengi is not it's assimilation into the federation way but that they were successful traders at all. Why the fuck would people keep trading with merchants who rip the customer off? The model of mutually beneficial trade creates the most value to an economy but as a customer if you're not winning from trades you have no incentive to participate. Yes I'm a lefty but yes I'm also an accountant and economist.
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Lt. Reginald Barclay - Sat, 04 Feb 2017 12:33:40 EST ID:dV0i2NZn No.57880 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57876

You don't get it.

Dude is talking about an ideology/epistemology that claims to be altruistic, but is in reality fascist in the form that altruism takes.

With love.
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Chulak - Sat, 04 Feb 2017 14:17:00 EST ID:ZYIEvzVd No.57881 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57880
No I don't get it, but that's because he starts with such a disorientating statement. I followed some of his rant and some of it made sense but some of it didn't.

My second paragraph is tangential. I agree with him on the best and worst star trek moments. DS9 is at it's best when it deconstructs but also reconstructs the TNG ideals. Sisko compromises but while it's a character defining moment he didn't change to get there. It isn't some tangent, it's just showing how far he'll go.
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Guinan - Sat, 04 Feb 2017 15:51:33 EST ID:+qOX2Mz3 No.57882 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57881
I suppose a good way to reframe it would be to pose the question, is there such a thing as an unselfish act?

There's a Freinds episode exploring this very subject you could consult. That seems to be a core component of human philosophy in this era, the 90s sitcom. But what do I know I'm a fucking offworlder.

Anyways following that line of reasoning you gotta ask yourself, when you do eventually come to conclusion that there are no selfless acts, that everything you do for anyone else is either because it makes you feel good to do so or because you feel like you should, it all comes back to the self. And realizing this you have to analyze how that perspective will skew your perception of reality, how can you think that concepts as nebulous as diversity or tolerance would be unaffected?

In short the world is never as simple as propogandists are wont to portray it. When you get to be as old as I am you see some shit.
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Third of Five - Sun, 05 Feb 2017 09:38:48 EST ID:ZYIEvzVd No.57888 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57882
Yeah I'm not as old as you or even the age of your persona "actor" but I was comfortable in my answer to this a very long time ago.

You can still look at what people get from an act. Someone gives to charity to make their conscience feel better. Well at least they cared. It's very different from someone who tortures another just to steal their money or even just for the fun of watching another suffer. Those are all selfish acts but they are different.

Additionally mutually beneficial cooperation is usually the best outcome. There's a reason that in a situation where you can essentially take 4 stances, those being "always cooperate" "always fuck the other over" "cooperate by default but fight back" and "fuck over by default but cooperate back" all 4 strategies remain in existence however the most successful if the cooperate but defend yourself one. Unfortunately one must escape the "tragedy of the common" outcome when put in a prisoner's dilemma type situation.

To compound it we tend to do the same things when stuck in a decision matrix with our future selves too. I'll skip the gym and eat this cake because whatever future me does I'm happier now. However there's dozens of future mes and I'll nickle and dime my way into being a lardball. Or you know this could be applied to larger scale more controversial issues than me and my sunday cardio.

Free self interest does not work because we end up incentivised to choose the wrong outcome. If humanity does not impose external pressure we need to change or we will repeatedly end up with empty mud caked common grazing land and 20 year sentences for crimes they had no evidence for. Metaphorically.
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Prophet - Sun, 05 Feb 2017 16:08:34 EST ID:ZjNQrcPu No.57891 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm glad to see philosophy coming from this thread, given trek's use of it. I guess I better get ready to dive in and read the whole thing.
Tea, poppy seed

And damn this is some good reading. Only /1701/ could tackle these kinds of topics with such civility (minus the islam-purge bit perhaps), concision, and well-written prose. You guys are dank.

>>57755
I know it's a pain in the ass when someone asks you to dig up a source that you've since forgotten (not that you have forgotten), but I have to ask for sources on Lamarckism, since I was taught, only two or three years ago in college, that it was entirely debunked. I am interested all the more considering how irrational the whole notion of Lamarckism seems at a passing glance.

>>57882
Idk Guinan, I've lingered at the conclusion that altruism doesn't exist for years too, but it's still a bit arrogant to assert that we'll all come to that conclusion (even assuming you mean to exclude those who just don't get that far). The only reason I'm criticizing you amidst the risk that you'll withhold your space dope is because I recently observed an Alan Watts video that made a more compelling argument for altruism than I had yet seen. The discussion actually focuses on defining virtue (and does so with a somewhat less familiar, archaic definition) and, upon reaching that landmark conclusion that all consciously intended actions must be for selfish purposes, he posits that virtue, and also selfless actions, lie in the portions of our lives where we act unaware of ourselves. Now it doesn't take a Vulcan to see that actions committed while self-unaware could easily and probably should be written off as the result of genetic/environmental influences aiming for survival- a clearly self-interested purpose- but since the action isn't being committed consciously, it is being committed selflessly, defined here as "literally without self." Unfortunately this redefines "selfless" as no longer synonymous "altruistic" so my entire paragraph is just a straw man, but ffs give me a break Guinan- I'm nodding face on space dope

>>57644
Oh Will.
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Guinan - Sun, 05 Feb 2017 17:45:34 EST ID:LDJ+gicL No.57892 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57891
You are not denied space drugs around these parts for disagreement! To be fair, although I can see the argument that there are no selfish acts as reasonable, it never sat perfectly well with me. Disagreeing is how we discover the hidden truth at the heart of things, and I will not fault you for that. Plus I love Alan Watts, and I'm gonna have to try to find that one.

Anyways I just wanna say that this thread so far has been awesome, I don't think I've ever started one quite as good before
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Jennifer Sisko - Mon, 06 Feb 2017 19:39:37 EST ID:dtPsZs0p No.57919 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57891
>source on the lamarckian stuff
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v17/n1/full/nn.3594.html
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/44/17046.short
External environmental phenomena can and do have effects on biomolecular events within the body, translating to distinct genetic differences. Small fleeting events can impact our genes. The 'Giraffes stretch their neck' example is basically the 'where's the Crocoduck' refutation. It's not simply selection by chance in an outside environ, changes to the body are made in consequence of the gene user's experiences. Basically the processes aren't all Darwinian as we thought. Famine, stress, good health, weather, even olfactory experiences and such can ripple through our genetics, and in a population that means genetic differences by experience too.

tl;dr neither of them were totally correct, but neither was wrong.
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Guinan - Tue, 07 Feb 2017 00:00:00 EST ID:cR6S8W8N No.57926 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>57919
E P I G E N E T I C S
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Ishka Moogie - Tue, 07 Feb 2017 05:56:37 EST ID:jLk28Rqz No.57932 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's my head canon that in ENT, Shran doesn't know black people are human. After all, there are no black Andorians, and I don't recall seeing a black Vulcan in ENT, or any other black Vulcan than Tuvok. But Shran calls humans "pinkskins", which seems to indicate that he does not think Mayweather is human. So what does he think? That black people are a client species of mankind? If we take that and run with it, maybe Shran's misunderstanding is partly responsible for the founding of the Federation, because internally he reasoned that mankind had already integrated one species, so maybe they weren't full of shit about peace and tolerance, like the Vulcans.
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Guinan - Tue, 07 Feb 2017 08:26:25 EST ID:cR6S8W8N No.57934 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57932
Hahaha this needs to be integrated into reality and acknowledged on-screen, that's how fucking solid this headcanon is. Definitely going in headcanon thread 2 in 2019 when the first one dies
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Shakaar Edon - Tue, 07 Feb 2017 13:45:32 EST ID:6jFPavA+ No.57935 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57932

thats... brilliant
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Lt. Joseph Carey - Tue, 07 Feb 2017 16:38:37 EST ID:HRHkEC3i No.57936 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57932
that's awesome
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Valkris - Thu, 09 Feb 2017 03:36:45 EST ID:gF0Iv3Uk No.57950 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>57932

Sounds like you applied Occam's Razor and got this result. I approve.


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