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420chan is Getting Overhauled - Changelog/Bug Report/Request Thread (Updated March 20)

Now Playing on /1701/tube -

Happy Arbour Day. by Groundskeeper Boothby - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 00:15:44 EST ID:e2Juqy0R No.65279 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1532232944039.jpg -(112466B / 109.83KB, 1920x1080) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 112466
Epic first thread stopped bumping so...

The Comic-con trailer for season 2 is up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavy7qZ1aoo

>The Orville season 2 kicks off with a two hour season premiere on December 30 at 8pm EDT on Fox.

This post was edited by C_Higgy on 22-07-2018 16:49:24
>>
David Marcus - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:48:05 EST ID:G20BPQrf No.65281 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Holy shit I'm hyped. The first contact with a new star system should be interesting, plus I'm curious on what they'll do with the Krill this season.
>>
Groundskeeper Boothby - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 13:55:30 EST ID:e2Juqy0R No.65283 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65281
Probably make pewpew at them.
>>
M'ret - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 14:16:21 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.65284 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65279
I watched this and then Discovery season 2 trailer. I couldn't finish the trailer for Discovery, it still has Burnham so I am completely uninterested.
At least we get one good Trek this year
>>
C-Higgy !lfsExjBfzE - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 16:48:37 EST ID:dfep+Fqt No.65285 Report Quick Reply
Added the info for season 2 so this can be the season 2 thread now. Looking forward to it.
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Lt. Talas - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 20:34:29 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.65287 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Looks awesome. Really stoked to see how they handle the first contact scenario.
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Guinan - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:40:35 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.65288 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65284
Discovery seems threatened by Orville, as the preview in question shows a bunch of really cringey attempts at jokes
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G'Quan - Sun, 22 Jul 2018 23:35:46 EST ID:PKki+GTG No.65289 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65279
Damn, I wish it was a little sooner. Surprised it took them a year and a half to get the second season ready to air. Looking forward to it though.
>>
Lt. Talas - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:25:48 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.65291 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65288
As they should be considering that there is no thread here for the Discovery preview, lol.

I hope they're airing concurrently. It can really make some trekkies appreciate The Orville so much more.
>>
Ranjen Solbor - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:53:18 EST ID:wgvpSeCN No.65292 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65288
Why steal the alien elevator gag though? That was one of the things Orville didn't steal.

Why is this fucking trailer using Fly by Lenny Kravitz? In what world was this appropriate. Star Trek isn't a CW superhero show.
>>
Noah Lessing - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:47:15 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65293 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65288
I think this is a correct assessment. The Star Trek subcirclejerk showed some real hostility towards The Orville when both aired. They didn't even want people talking about it. I get that the "real Trek" argument can get tiresome, but that's no excuse when you do it right back. And it takes some real wilful ignorance to deny that The Orville is Trek related.
>>
Noah Lessing - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 06:05:10 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65294 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65293
And if you'll excuse the double post, I've watched the Discovery trailer. Yeah, it isn't very impressive. Literally half the trailer was taken from one episode, with them flying around in those bubble ships. The other half is explosions and people running through them. And of course dragging Spock into it all again for an audience who doesn't care who he is.

That stuff makes me the most cynical. Everyone who has seen TOS and actually gives two fucks about Spock knows the character is more than a name and a set of traits. And everyone who hasn't, and doesn't, has no reason to care. So my view is immediately that the show tries to legitimize itself by rolling in a big name. Just as they did with the Mirror Universe. But Discovery had as many Mirror Universe episodes as the rest of Trek combined. And that's mostly down to DS9 actually making a point about the original episode, and Sisko basically having to clean up Kirk's mess. In short, it used the subject matter to make a point.

But that's the thing with Discovery. It aggressively avoids making any sort of point, and even its trailer hints at nothing truly exciting. Oh, there are these "red bursts", but what does that mean? Are the Reapers coming? All we know is that it requires Burnham to get into an impractical spaceship and fly past a bunch of asteroids. Oh, and she must help Spork. There's no hook in this trailer. Nothing that makes me think "that's an exciting concept".

Also, I fucking hate the way Discovery is trying to make me care about its characters. I'll just come out and say it. I don't like any character on Discovery, and it all feels so superficial. Saru is OK, but he's barely even in the trailer. Come on, you have Doug Jones do the make-up thing on your show, and you give all these dead fish precedence over him? And you're still not developing cute cyborg girl? No, just what I needed, more Tilly being annoying at the camera. God, I fucking hate Tilly. I don't understand how anyone can look at that character and not immediately see through the paper thin characterization and see the writing committee sitting behind her. At least Burnham is so numb that you can imagine her to actually be a real person.

Rant out. I hate that this is being done under a name I love. I hate that there are people who don't give two shits about the entire series telling me I have to like this because of that name,
>>
Donik - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:57:31 EST ID:hFH53wxi No.65295 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65293
Like what I've seen of the Orville so far I don't dig the humour very much but having flawed comedy characters does make it more relatable ironically, fuck ups making the "better humanity" thing work by sheer effort and persistance and just trying to be better rather than "humanity has evolved" but it feels like a genuine attempt to do what Trek should be doing by people who actually love Trek. Not the notion of Trek, not actually Star Wars but this will do, not the idea of being in a big name show, but they love exploring humanity with the twist being that it's humanity as it could be compared to as it is (with the later ironically not normally being human, or being outsiders) all through the medium of sci fi, a very different world. And this trailer looks like they might have iterated and improved on it the bits I actually liked.

Discovery may also yet settle, most trek takes a while to find its feet. But it looks like it has to work that much harder. Until it can surpass a comedy show made on a moderate budget it doesn't deserve more than indifference. The best scenario we can hope for is that Orville continues to improve and continues to cast shade on Discovery and forces them to get good.
>>
Subcommander Almak - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:25:53 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.65297 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65295
Kirk made it abundantly clear that's exactly how humanity is "better", like that speech about "I won't kill. Today."
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:34:48 EST ID:7hZAtms2 No.65303 Report Quick Reply
>>65295
Yesssss, S E R I O U S L Y.
My biggest problem is that I don't give the slightest FUCK about any of the characters. At least with VOY there were characters that I could hate, but the STD crew just has me totally blank on emotions.
>>
Subcommander Velal - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:18:41 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.65309 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65295
Yeah pretty much all the shows took a little while to settle but no series made me hate so many characters so much. There was tons of bad writing in Voy but I never just despised the writing committees this much. And the whole concept of totally ignoring the bridge crew really grinds my gears. Not to mention that pretty much all of the character development that didn't involve Burnham was done only for one specific plot device later on. Like the doctors short development with Stametz; it was all just so that when he died it would elicit a response. It felt extremely cheap and kinda insulting. Well it would have felt insulting if I had gotten into the character at all. But pretty much all the development that happened was really cheap and superficial. Like Tilly as well, it seemed like it was all for the gimmick of seeing her mirror universe self.
>>
Subcommander Velal - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:21:30 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.65310 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I know someone else said this recently in some other thread, but it is nice that people here are mostly on the same page and not in a circlejerk kinda way.
It seems that in all the other trek outlets that I have found, you are accosted and flamed for having the opinions that I have. There are brainless shills everywhere. I had no clue that so many trekkies are straight up brand whores and husks. It's saddening. But not here.
>>
Sarpek the Fearless - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:27:43 EST ID:e2Juqy0R No.65311 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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The Orville 2018 Comic-con Panel

Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ-MMfaMeMQ

Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JkVscAlEOs
>>
Tuvok - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:28:53 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65312 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65295
I don't think we can assume Discovery will follow Trek rules. The thing is, pretty much every series takes time to find its feet, because the team is still learning to work together, relationships between cast members are developing, etc. This will also count for The Orville. And in the realm of Trek, the only Trek show that had a really significant development that pulled it back from the brink, was TNG. TNG went through a serious change of vision, and the right people were fired from the project. TOS never went through it, DS9 followed its vision from the start, VOY lost a few habits but nothing really noteworthy until they added a new character. ENT did go through a big change and became a lot better than it had been, but was then cancelled. And the people responsible for that change are working on The Orville, not DSC.

I expect DSC to get better, but I don't expect it to change its vision. The trailer for the second season was obnoxious, seemingly intent on adding more of the shit I absolutely loathed about the second season. The annoying characters, the complete lack of any decent science fiction themes, the focus on explosions and shit, pointlessly inserting callbacks to TOS for no other reason than that they have the rights to it.

I think this is why so many people legit consider The Orville to be Star Trek. It's trying, there's no doubt about that. But when I look at the show that's carrying the Trek title, I can't see Star Trek in it. That's why I put little stock in the notion of it somehow becoming something I'd watch to get my Trek fix. Your dog may lose its habit of trying to bite people's noses, but it's never going to become a cat.

>>65310
Tin foil hat alert: I genuinely wonder how many of those people are actually into Trek. I hung out on the Trek subcirclejerk a bit, and when DSC (and The Orville) dropped, the board was suddenly flooded by people who loved it. And then they disappeared again a while later. For a few weeks, DSC fanboyism was the majority opinion, and now it's 50/50, if that. And a lot of DSC fans like going for the standby argument that previous Trek shows were secretly kind of bad. That's something I just find off. I mean, if you thought it was bad, then how did you get into it in the first place?

I met one person IRL who liked it. And he likes it exactly why you'd think he'd like it. It's more action-packed, faster paced, and not about people talking to each other in beige rooms. He had neither seen nor cared to see previous Trek shows.
>>
Subcommander Velal - Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:43:41 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.65313 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65312
>And a lot of DSC fans like going for the standby argument that previous Trek shows were secretly kind of bad.

I noticed a lot of that as well. My theory is that it's just a lot of "wannabe nerds" bandwagoning that never were huge into trek to begin with. They're probably the kinds that were absolutely thrilled when the dude at CBS said they're gonna draw a lot of inspiration from Game of Thrones and likely aren't aware that making Trek derivative of current trendy shit will just totally devalue it in the long run. They don't realize that Trek has always been about breaking new ground not retreading something that broke new ground 8 years ago and is long since stale by now, not to mention it has been emulated into oblivion long before CBS got this terrible idea in their skulls.
They can't appreciate all of the amazing quotes in Trek. What deep shit has Burnham said that is timeless? The show isn't even fucking quotable for Christ's sake!
>>
Pax - Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:08:22 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65319 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65313
>>The show isn't even fucking quotable for Christ's sake!
What do you mean? Discovery has some of the most poignant, thought-provoking dialogue of the franchise...
>>
Subcommander Almak - Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:08:36 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65320 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65313
>>65319
The show is just replete with bad writing. I don't understand how they ended up with such shitty writers as they did. Speaking of the "fuck" moment, everyone seems to forget DS9 dropped "jolly african-americans". And that's because that line felt natural in the episode, in the context it was given in. While DSC just did "fuck" so they could go all "not your daddy's Trek" and preen with their first swearword in Trek. Except it isn't. Because DS9 dropped one of the most offensive words in the English language, it did it 20 years ago, and nobody batted an eyelid. Then again, the DS9 crew didn't slap their own dick all over the media. All in all it had this air of a Woodstock hippy telling his beach-storming dad that he doesn't know what it's like to be part of a historical event.
>>
Legate Turrel - Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:28:51 EST ID:rKny2vPg No.65322 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65320
>everyone seems to forget DS9 dropped "jolly african-americans"

Anybody who's seen and forgotten that episode should not be here.
>>
Subcommander Almak - Tue, 24 Jul 2018 22:29:57 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65323 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65322
No. That's why they're all on Plebbit, in the media, or on the DSC writing staff.
>>
Admiral Hayes - Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:15:48 EST ID:+4UFuvKN No.65324 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65320
Do you want a fucking medal of honor for wasting your life watching a silly scifi show, you massive crybaby?
>>
Krax - Wed, 25 Jul 2018 03:01:25 EST ID:l5TvN503 No.65325 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65324
>Triggered
>>
Guinan - Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:58:24 EST ID:e2Juqy0R No.65326 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65324
>>
Morn - Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:10:40 EST ID:1GGvWnSD No.65327 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65320
>The show is just replete with bad writing. I don't understand how they ended up with such shitty writers as they did

That's not what happened. They tried to pivot a project halfway through development. There are various ways to do this, but the worst by far is to just throw everything out and start over with no fucking time. That's how you get Hobbit movies.

Discovery is better than the Hobbit movies. They didn't fail utterly. Studios have deadlines and they got it done. The result is probably not as good as the original plan or if the original were scrapped and completely re-developed from scratch.
But if that were the case, Discovery would have made no money until about now.

Also as a serialized narrative they really didn't have much room to correct until the first season was over. So we can expect the tone and everything to change finally.
My prediction is still that it doesn't really become good until Season 3. That's just how Trek spinoffs work. Unless it's Voyager, which is always a crapshoot every season. All the great episodes are just mixed in with the terrible ones throughout.
Discovery doesn't need much more organic character development to pull ahead of Voyager in that regard. (TOM PARIS LIKES TRUCKS BECAUSE IT'S RELEVANT IN THIS PLOT OF THE WEEK) (CHAKOTAY LIKES BOXING BECAUSE WE GOT THE ROCK AS A GUEST STAR AND WE FOIGHTIN) (HARRY KIM LIKES NOTHING EVER BECAUSE WE DON'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT HIM TO WRITE HIM INTO A PLOT CONTRIVANCE) (JANEWAY LIKES HOLO ROMANCE NOVELS BECAUSE we're actually just gonna lean on Kate Mulgrew's acting background the same way we did Patrick Stewart's) Okay that one gets a pass.
Anyway you can be pretty terrible and still not be far off from surpassing Voyager. Enterprise is better than Voyager IMO because the shit episodes are concentrated in seasons you can just ignore. Enterprise just doesn't have the same contempt for your time that Voyager does.
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Kayron - Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:58:20 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65328 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65320
>>A serious reply to my post.
>>
Grand Nagus Smeet - Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:37:11 EST ID:pGW9AzVT No.65337 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65328
Lol
>>
The Doctor - Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:40:47 EST ID:e2Juqy0R No.65353 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Hopefully she isn't driving the ship.

https://trekmovie.com/2018/07/27/marina-sirtis-to-guest-star-in-the-orville-in-episode-directed-by-star-trek-tngs-jonathan-frakes/
>Yesterday his TNG co-star Marina Sirtis tweeted a picture of herself on set with Frakes and The Orville creator Seth MacFarlane. Frakes followed this up with the message “Cat’s out of the bag now.”

>It was reported earlier this week by IMDB News that Star Trek: Enterprise star John Billingsley had a guest role in the first episode of The Orville’s second season, filmed earlier this year. TrekMovie has also independently verified it.

>And Russ’s Voyager co-star Robert Picardo did a guest spot in March, which was tweeted by executive producer/director John Cassar, pictured below with Picardo and MacFarlane. This is actually Picardo’s second time on the series, as he is reprising his role as the Xelayan father of Halston Sage’s Alara Kitan.

It also looks like The Orville may have poached a TNG vet from Discovery.
>The second season of The Orville also has more Trek vets behind the camera. Acclaimed Star Trek: The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Discovery writer Joe Menosky has joined the series as an executive producer and member of the writers’ room. At San Diego Comic-Con, former Star Trek: Enterprise writer/executive producer and current The Orville writer/executive producer Brannon Braga told TrekMovie that he wanted Menosky for the first season, but he wasn’t available as he’d already signed on to Discovery.
>>
Rionoj - Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:41:53 EST ID:hFH53wxi No.65354 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65353
Frakes and Sirtis really love working together. I guess Riker and Troi's complicated but very close friendship probably isn't far off the reality with the stars.

I googled Joe Menosky. None of his work is bad and some of it absolute top trek like Darmok, Year of Hell, The Chase in TNG and Year of Hell and Living Witness for Voyager. I guess they really are doubling down on the Trek.
>>
Donik - Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:08:05 EST ID:v1sa2TVS No.65355 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65353
RIP Star Trek. Long live The Orville.
>>
C-Higgy !lfsExjBfzE - Sat, 28 Jul 2018 23:57:33 EST ID:ZrugFMJZ No.65361 Report Quick Reply
>>65353
Well I'm not surprised. The Orville is more faithful to Star Trek than Discovery is to Star Trek.
>>
Dr. Reyga - Sun, 29 Jul 2018 00:52:19 EST ID:M7BsLhFB No.65363 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65355
I still think there's hope for Discovery turning out decent after two awkward as fuck seasons.

It's only exactly how Enterprise, DS9 and TNG worked out. The difference is the non-serialized episodes getting a chance to stand out on their own, self-contained. The good episodes of Discovery just don't get to stand out as much when they're forced to serve the season's plot.

I think the Mirror Universe and Klingon homeworld stuff was fun AF. Always brought down by something or another (ship with giant vulnerable exposed core, actually letting the asshole with her finger on the trigger of a planetary self destruct rule the Klingons, fucking what?) but still.
If they develop Discovery around its strongest elements it could really become something respectable.

But given the very real possibility that they keep fucking it up, at least we have the Orville.
>>
Lt. Cmdr. Dexter Remmick - Sun, 29 Jul 2018 03:00:39 EST ID:5uU+DoWU No.65364 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65363
>But given the very real possibility that they keep fucking it up, at least we have the Orville.
I doubt it. The problem is the people who the execs gave the franchise to really want to do their own thing instead of trek. So much so that they actively avoid common trek tropes.
To blame is the hollywood snafu where execs hire people who "have made a name in X" instead of consulting with the fanbase.
>>
Subcommander T'Rul - Sun, 29 Jul 2018 15:11:38 EST ID:lyzhC1TF No.65368 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65363
>Discovery

RIP Star Trek. Long live The Orville.
>>
Lorian - Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:49:38 EST ID:uVB+tMG3 No.65369 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65368
There's no way the franchise won't survive. Unless of course, the nine new shows fall victim to nine separate misfortunes and are shitty. But that will never happen. Three misfortunes, that's possible. Seven misfortunes, there's an outside chance; but nine misfortunes-- I'd like to see that!
>>
Penk - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 07:34:54 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65372 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65363
Discovery isn't beholden to the same rules as old Trek, though. It's got different people working on it, with different goals, in a different tradition. Pretty much any show is bound to get better as time passes because the people working on it get more experience. But Discovery has this very obvious sense of trying to please target groups. Take that The Orville-esque joke in the trailer. That just screams the fact that someone saw that The Orville is popular, so they wanted to move more closely in its direction.

I don't see a possibility where I'll start liking Discovery. I'm constantly seeing shows that do Trek-like things better than Discovery because they are character-driven and treat moral issues with their characters. Even something like Killjoys does what Discovery is doing, but I'm enjoying it far more.
>>
Belongo - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:45:53 EST ID:3h3rpy1X No.65374 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65372
Discovery isn’t canon so I’ll never watch it.
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Penk - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:40:23 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65375 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65374
It's canon, because the people in charge want it to be. But it's also a trashy modern sci-fi show that doesn't really have anything to do with Star Trek other than that dusty, dry fact that someone owns a piece of paper that says they have the right to make something called "Star Trek".

But everyone can decide for themselves what they consider part of the universe. It's a seperate show, with its own look, cast, etc. and it's never been referenced in any of the other Treks for obvious reasons. Someone saying "it's canon" has relatively little impact. Relatively, because I do dislike seeing JJTrek and DSC crap in that Trek mod for Stellaris, and wish I could turn it off.
>>
Leskit - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:30:24 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.65376 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65375
>Someone saying "it's canon" has relatively little impact.
it does wonders in robot cartoon circles for starting shit
>>
Ulani Belor - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:31:45 EST ID:cVeP57wQ No.65377 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65372
The thing is Discovery does need to have its own identity and a find a new take on Star Trek.
The problem is it's too wannabe Game of Thrones at this point and vastly over-influenced by the Trek movies which have been hot garbage for decades.
It sort of has the right idea with season-long arcs and such. I think the problem might be that they didn't commit enough to that style.
It's also in a weird spot where it's not nearly as thoroughly planned out as something like GoT, Breaking Bad, Babylon 5 or whatever else they're trying to be like.

I still think a lot of the hate follows the same pattern as DS9 hate. DS9 wasn't that well planned out either. They really just had the concept of Star Trek at an outpost, and developed from there.
They definitely have the right idea going with more of a mystery arc if the trailer is any indication but it can't be as stupid as the whole spore drive thing and the Klingon war.
I kind of love the Discovery Klingons, but that's mostly because they got MORE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT THAN THE MAIN CHARACTERS. L'rell is more interesting than the whole goddamn Discovery crew. I can't expect the bridge crew to be highly developed characters but as it is they just feel like props, we get absolutely nothing from them in Discovery season 1.

It would be fine that Burnham sucks and is a big blank slate if we just got that character stuff somewhere else. I had literally no hope for Discovery until we got some scenes of Mudd and Lorca talking shit in prison. The show desperately needs more of that. So much of the best stuff in Star Trek is just characters talking about ideas and shit. Just think of all the O'Brien Bashir scenes or Bashir and Garak, Data and anybody, Worf and anybody, TNG poker scenes. That's the good shit that builds up value in character development over time. Discovery completely neglects that aspect of things and because of that, it even fails as a BSG Game of Thrones wannabe.

It made the same mistake as Voyager, only ever developing characters in direct service of the plot. I also think it's what makes Enterprise weak. If they can turn that around, then whatever the fuck Discovery wants to be will probably turn out a lot better.
There is a little bit of seriously good Trek development in Discovery. Saru evaluating his command performance is a good example.
>>
Ulani Belor - Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:34:46 EST ID:cVeP57wQ No.65378 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65377
The number 1 thing they need to realize is that despite them being relatively successful mass market action films, Trek fans kind of hate the movies. Stop following in their footsteps.

Jettison Kurtzman into the sun.
>>
Admiral Chekote - Tue, 31 Jul 2018 07:46:17 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65386 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65377
Well, that's what I said. Discovery isn't character-driven, while the core of Trek is that it's a character-driven show. L'rell works because she's a character who has consistent interaction with other characters and bases her actions off that. We don't get that with Burnham, who just does what the plot demands she does. Despite the new Klingon edgelordery, I do kind of like L'rell. I think she's pretty compelling. She also showed her ridged boobies, so that's a plus.

But I got no such feeling from Lorca and Mudd in prison. I thought that shit was horrible. In fact, I thought that entire episode was horrible. It's emblematic of Discovery's problem: It's so fucking edgy. It just doesn't let up. So everything is super important all the time, all the characters are constantly either growling at the camera or having their designated Tilly moments where they can act faux giddy. They just don't seem like real people. When you look at the other crews, you can imagine yourself interacting with them, even if it is just as the local yokel on the planet of the week. But with Discovery, I'd shut myself in the holo.... sorry, training simulator, and just run the Klingon Interrogation Program 24/7.

And that's why I have no hope for it. The series started out deliberately doing the opposite of core Trek values. I've always hated that type of "renewal". Doing the exact opposite of something isn't smart. It doesn't take any creativity. And they'd have to do a complete 180 for it to even have a chance of becoming a good show.

Also, the lack of an ensemble cast makes it difficult for people to latch onto. Burnham just exists in a vacuum, and I fucking loathe her. There's no reason for me to watch the show, because it's all about her. I also don't like most of VOY's cast, or most of ENT's cast, but for those few characters I DO like, it's worth to keep watching it.
>>
Maihar'du - Tue, 31 Jul 2018 09:25:24 EST ID:cVeP57wQ No.65388 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65386
Yeah it's not that good, but it's literally the first time the show took a minute and sat the fuck down. After 3 episodes where I thought there was no hope at all.

The episode titles are offensively pretentious and stupid too.

Burnham is just tofu, she's just nothing. That might be fine if we weren't fixated on this nothingburger character at the expense of the more interesting ones.
And I don't care what feminists say, Burnham is a quintessential Mary Sue. So much time talking up her abilities instead of showing and she's barely a character. She's at least as much of a Mary Sue as Wesley was.

>I also don't like most of VOY's cast, or most of ENT's cast
Voyager also slaved its character development into the needs of the plot. A lot more than even Enterprise did. I don't think Enterprise really has the same problem but its characters are really lame. And once again the Doctor steals the show.
>>
Admiral Chekote - Tue, 31 Jul 2018 09:57:54 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.65389 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65388
Yeah, Burnham is one of those hypercompetent characters with writer fiat behind her. I thought it was annoying with Janeway, but she was at least still a character in her own right. I'm hard-pressed to describe Burnham's personality in terms that don't explain her skills or what she does.
>>
Penk - Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:18:41 EST ID:JEAoMO6F No.65393 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65389
I don't think Janeway is the prime example from Voyager. It's Tom Paris, who is framed as a big fuck-up because he made one mistake and then went on to do everything perfectly forever (with a little help from his girl Torres)
>>
Species 8472 - Wed, 01 Aug 2018 03:48:37 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.65395 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65388
pretty much this, the docs were the only really good characters from both those crews
>>
Greer - Thu, 02 Aug 2018 17:42:49 EST ID:sBlKNQlx No.65414 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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So my thoughts were wandering while I was making breakfast and I thought... since Trek built some of itself by chewing on contemporary issues and Discotrash can only hump imagined culture wars, what distinctly 2010 issues might they take up in season 2? They took a swipe at social media mob mentality in the first season. What would it be interesting to see in Orville season 2?

I would love to see something about civil forfeiture. I'm not in the US and don't know anyone who's been hit by it but every time I see it in the news and how it fucks over innocent people and funnels money into police coffers I'm amazed there isn't a civil war down there spawned just by outrage over it.

Net neutrality seems like an easy one but I'll thrown it in.

Regulatory capture. Not a uniquely American problem but they seem to have it the worst.

Backlash against nuclear power generation in the wake of Fukushima.

What would you like to see?
>>
Krax - Thu, 02 Aug 2018 20:47:42 EST ID:yUxLOWTW No.65415 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65389
Yeah all of that but they added the tragic plot driving backstory. It would be redeeming if it wasn't so stupid.
>>
Weyoun 8 - Fri, 03 Aug 2018 13:58:01 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65419 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65414
>>what distinctly 2010 issues might they take up in season 2
I mean why ignore the elephant in the room? Do the loss of jobs and middle class to automation and big tech, and how that feeds into social collapse and authoritarian and antinomian revival, and do it big and loud and with the tools to address it that only a Trek/Trek-clone has. Trek was literally engineered to respond to this question, which is to me why it's so baffling that it's the one thing that seems too hot a potato for Trek or even Orville to go after.
>>
Prinadora - Sun, 05 Aug 2018 16:44:01 EST ID:Mm/mlHEe No.65441 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65414
All of those issues are substantial. I see more shit about Russia. The first season was about wahabism, nationalism and (supporting) imperialism. I see some cold war esque fear mongering in season 2. It's cbs though so they won't make the enemy straight up communists, they will have to be more subtle somehow.
>>
Leck - Sun, 05 Aug 2018 16:50:28 EST ID:sBlKNQlx No.65443 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65441
>It's cbs though so they won't make the enemy straight up communists

It's Fox... I can see New Cold War shit being a season-long arc, which might explain at least some of the Krill pewpew in the new trailer.
>>
Christopher Brynner - Fri, 21 Sep 2018 21:39:16 EST ID:URhcRB2x No.65811 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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IT'S HAPPENING
>>
Tavek - Sat, 22 Sep 2018 02:25:43 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.65813 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65811
What the DVD? How is that even close to interesting? The fuck?!
>>
Christopher Brynner - Sat, 22 Sep 2018 12:32:20 EST ID:URhcRB2x No.65821 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65813
Are you okay?
It's finally getting a home media release. There should be a blu-ray alongside it. It was home video that launched Family Guy (love it or hate it) after a middling first season. Strong home media sales for The Orville will make it easier for Fox to decide to keep making it beyond their current commitment.
>>
C-Higgy !lfsExjBfzE - Sat, 22 Sep 2018 16:30:26 EST ID:ZrugFMJZ No.65823 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65821
It was DVD sales of its original seasons and solid rerun ratings on Adult Swim after it got canceled that got Family Guy back on the air. I don’t think home media sales mean as much now as much as Live+7 and streaming ratings do.
>>
David Marcus - Sat, 22 Sep 2018 18:08:28 EST ID:aFR+vwAW No.65828 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65811
Awesome! Here's to hoping they have good sales!
>>
Krem - Sun, 23 Sep 2018 07:58:41 EST ID:UjQcX3hV No.65831 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65821
What century are you from?
>>
Iliana Ghemor - Sun, 23 Sep 2018 19:04:26 EST ID:egSVvJnM No.65834 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65821
Who the hell buys DVDs anymore?!
>>
Dr. Telek R'Mor - Sun, 23 Sep 2018 20:58:55 EST ID:b2kjICL7 No.65837 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Aren't DVD's worse than HD? Order online the DVD?
>>
T'Pol - Sun, 23 Sep 2018 23:35:00 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.65839 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Look Brynner clearly just forgot what decade it was. Cut him some slack.
>>
Minister Kuvak - Wed, 26 Sep 2018 04:34:26 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.65864 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65834
>>65831
>>65828
DVDs are still purchased by those over the age of ~35 who don't know any better. That's actually a pretty key demographic for TNG/DS9 nostalgia.
>>
Nyota Uhura - Sat, 29 Sep 2018 23:22:42 EST ID:51jDRXZx No.65876 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZFol2qY8wc
>>
M'Ress - Mon, 01 Oct 2018 16:36:25 EST ID:zgAwn5Av No.65886 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65834
my 63 year old dad
>>
Nanpart Malor - Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:11:13 EST ID:51jDRXZx No.65925 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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DICKS EVERYWHERE
>>
DaiMon Torrot - Fri, 05 Oct 2018 01:12:13 EST ID:RUqIb+hP No.65935 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65876

ugh that was horrendous. the lyrics need such a massive tune up. music was fine, voice was fine, but the rhyming then not rhyming and syllables not being in sync with each verse.. sorry it was just hell to my ears.

here is a picture of my dog's turd. she ate a ribbon out of the garbage and she shat it out on the tip of this turd so it was like a nice little present
>>
Thy'lek Shran - Mon, 08 Oct 2018 19:02:37 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.65963 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Also I finally got around to watching this. Series is great but Episode 3 is fucking dumb. Unless it was intended to be an outright parody of Trek's courtroom episodes the utter retardism of all of the arguments presented alone sinks what was a good concept.
>>
Data - Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:28:05 EST ID:SDGPvg5y No.65986 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65935
It's a filk, you grump. It's supposed to be bad.
>>
G'Quan - Fri, 12 Oct 2018 21:30:31 EST ID:PKki+GTG No.65989 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65986
>Discovery makes its epic return to CBS All Access on January 17, 2019!
>January 17, 2019

Man, they're doing it again. They should have learned from the first season not to run STD at the same time as STRV because it makes STD look even worse.
>>
Belongo - Sat, 13 Oct 2018 03:16:15 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.65992 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65935
yeah it was bad but I'd say it's still better than the ENT theme song (which is till somehow better than the show)
>>
Commander Morag - Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:30:33 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.65993 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65992
>it's still better than the ENT theme song
>>
Bird Keeper Dane - Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:44:18 EST ID:KGL1tgWI No.65994 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>65992
It's been a long time since I heard anyone hate that song you filthy bajoran REMOVE HASPERAT
>>
Nevala - Mon, 15 Oct 2018 17:41:08 EST ID:DQPN6n13 No.66001 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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They had their season 2 wrap party on the weekend.

Captain Ed sings: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo669Nnh0kJ/
And then sings more: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo6HYalgmDR/

Pics or it didn't happen:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo6xtZzFyKk/?taken-by=onlyobi
https://twitter.com/Toni_sweetheart/status/1051638986068779008/photo/1
https://mobile.twitter.com/Toni_sweetheart/status/1051639042863853568/photo/1
https://mobile.twitter.com/stjerome610/status/1051522104024342529/photo/1
>>
Admiral Nechayev - Tue, 16 Oct 2018 19:28:44 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66007 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>65994
I think if you don't like the ENT theme song that should be considered scientific proof that you are dead inside and have no soul.
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Tue, 16 Oct 2018 21:07:02 EST ID:7hZAtms2 No.66009 Report Quick Reply
>>66007
The ENT theme song is a bannable offense.
That's an order.
>>
Amanda Grayson - Tue, 16 Oct 2018 22:40:34 EST ID:KGL1tgWI No.66011 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66009
You can't stop love Therm0ptic!

>It's been a long road. Gettin from there to here. It's been a long time, but my time is finally here. And I will see my dreams come alive at night. I will touch the sky, and they're not gonna hold me down no more, No they're not gonna change my mind. 'CAUSE I'VE GOT FAITH OF THE HEART. I'M GOING WHERE MY HEART WILL TAKE ME I'VE GOT FAITH TO BELIEVE, I CAN DO ANYTHING. I'VE GOT STRENGTH OF THE SOUL. NO ONE'S GONNA BEND NOR BREAK ME I CAN REACH, ANY STAR. I'VE GOT FAITH. I'VE GOT FAITH... FAITH OF THE HEAAART
>>
Dr. T'Pan - Tue, 16 Oct 2018 23:36:22 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66012 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66009
I don't get it Therms, first you're all about how ENT is so much greater than VOY, but the things people actually like about the show are bad? What gives?
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 01:55:00 EST ID:7hZAtms2 No.66013 Report Quick Reply
>>66012
Back in my day it was universally accepted that the ENT theme is garbage.
Sometimes I feel like I don't even know you guys anymore.
>>
T'Pau - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:05:31 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66014 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66013
dude seriously!

I stayed away from DIS after like episode 4 but was the rest really so bad that you guys somehow started unrionically liking everything about ENT just because it isn't discotrash?

man trek just keeps getting worse and worse
>>
Dr. T'Pan - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 17:11:13 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66015 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66013
Back when the show first came out I had a knee jerk reaction to it like everyone else...'oh, it's not the same kind of symphonic score the other ones had, so it must be garbage.'

Then I grew up and learned to stop evaluating things based on my preconceived notions, and realized that a.) they were trying to do something new and b.) it's just a genuinely heartfelt piece of feel-good in an otherwise bleary sea of grimdark. It captures the essence of Trek in a way that, sure, if you've been a trekkie for decades is like 'yeah, space exploration is cool, we're already on board my dude' but if you took someone who knew nothing about Trek and wanted to convey the feeling of what Trek is about to them in 30 seconds, what better way is there to do it?

Anyway, I'm just getting my jabs in cause of all the VOY bashing earlier, but really, you do realize you're saying 'like ENT, it's good, but only the parts I like. otherwise, ban.' I think you just need Faith of the Heart my man. No one's gonna bend or break you.
>>
T'Pau - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:02:26 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66016 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66015
the enterprise theme song is fucking garbage and not just because it's not symphonic

it's a shitty fucking song like the ones you'd hear on early 00's pop country radio stations
>>
Seven of Nine - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:16:04 EST ID:PKki+GTG No.66017 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66015
At first I thought you were talking about the STD theme and didn't understand your post but, yeah, I kind of agree that it isn't as horrible as its made out to be. Plus you can just skip through it and its no where near as bad as the STD theme.

I've talked about this a little bit in the past. This is pre-UFP, we're just getting out there. We're still in our infancy. I think it makes sense to have a less classical and well composed feeling song in that context. We're kids listening to shitty music. As we age and mature as a species we start getting into a more classical score.

>but if you took someone who knew nothing about Trek and wanted to convey the feeling of what Trek is about to them in 30 seconds, what better way is there to do it?

I do disagree that a theme song is the best 30s to get someone into Trek. I can't really think of any 30s that really embodies Trek and would get people on board. Possibly The Sisko's monologue at the end of In the Pale Moonlight.
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:33:06 EST ID:7hZAtms2 No.66018 Report Quick Reply
>>66015
I think... you and I are destined to do this forever.
But no it tortures me, man, because the lyrics fit the show so well. But it's a fucking garbage song to use as the theme for Trek. I'm torn. It doesn't have to be symphonic, it just should not be shit. it should be more atmospheric imo and feel less like "we need an opening theme cuz it's the formula."
>>
Dejar - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:55:29 EST ID:Y8Ov7Xzc No.66019 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66018
>>66016
the generic country melody is what makes it so soulful and unique, in my opinion
>>
Hadley - Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:19:16 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.66020 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Faith In The Heart is a dumb song, but it grew on me
also that Space Bat video with it helped me grow to like it too
>>
Going Where My Heart Will Take Me - Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:24:35 EST ID:KGL1tgWI No.66021 Ignore Report Quick Reply
It's a shitty song for a shitty show, and in that way it's the perfect meme.
>>
Hadley - Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:51:20 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.66024 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66021
that's like how I argue in favor of the Voyager series finale.
It's an ugly stupid mess of time travel and asspulls and Janeway doing everything, but in the end wasn't that what Voyage was all about?
>>
Benny Russell - Thu, 18 Oct 2018 20:28:59 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66025 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66017
>>near as bad as the STD theme
I want to die when I see the STD theme. It can't even be called a 'theme' in the musical sense, it has absolutely no structure and basically sounds like nothing.

>>As we age and mature as a species we start getting into a more classical score.
>>Awesome headcanon, was better than my headcanon, using your headcanon now

>>66018
>>I think... you and I are destined to do this forever.
Sorry friend. If it makes you feel better, I'm the person who always backs you up on /wc/. We can keep arguing about VOY and ENT when we're post-human intelligences ;)

>> "we need an opening theme cuz it's the formula."
To be fair, having a cheesy theme song was requisite in early-00s TV. They weren't really breaking the trek formula so much as bending to a larger trend.
>>
Chakotay - Fri, 19 Oct 2018 22:07:13 EST ID:DQPN6n13 No.66044 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66025
>To be fair, having a cheesy theme song was requisite in early-00s TV. They weren't really breaking the trek formula so much as bending to a larger trend.

I think it's more the case that they wanted to distinguish themselves from the other series by not having a orchestral main title and they also wanted something that reflected the ambition and pride of the American flight and space programs of the 1940s thru 1960s.
>>
Chakotay - Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:44:52 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66045 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66044
I'm pretty sure it was a last second decision to jump on the patriotic american country music bandwagon that everybody was riding after good ol ninerleven
>>
Kirayoshi O'Brien - Sat, 20 Oct 2018 10:14:38 EST ID:LCfgD/e0 No.66046 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66044
The sad thing is that music aside it's a good title sequence.
>>
Grand Nagus Smeet - Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:43:39 EST ID:b2kjICL7 No.66047 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66045
Now they have Michael Angelo gestures of men touching themselves with classical music with a solute to Gene.
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Greskrendtregk - Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:17:43 EST ID:aTOANb1E No.66048 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66046
Oh yeah. The music is muddled and confused as fuck.

With a little trimming it'd be a lot better. Its got a lot of good elements in there but it doesn't know when to stop. I really like the first minute of it. I think that part is perfect.

It could end at a minute 15 and be perfect. But then it goes and plays the whole classic TOS thing followed by the deep horns.
My solution for this is just cut the da-ding from the end and replace it with the horns. Those last notes are there to punctuate the conclusion in the original theme, and Discovery's theme just does it twice and I fucking hate that. It's unnecessary.
>>
Commander Donatra - Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:56:38 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66049 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66046
I'd disagree: too much in the way of American achievements and too little of anyone else.
>>
Kiri-kin-tha - Sat, 20 Oct 2018 22:48:29 EST ID:PKki+GTG No.66050 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66049
It was an American Show with an American captain and was created for the American audience.
>>
Homn - Sun, 21 Oct 2018 05:07:38 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66051 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66050
no other star trek is so straight up American though

ENT was a cash grab riding the wave of maniacal patriotism that followed 9/11

that's the biggest reason it sucked so hard, the show itself is basically a Toby Keith song in space
>>
Rebi - Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:07:35 EST ID:UgmK2ffD No.66053 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66051
>straight up American though

E plan eesta wants your attention.
>>
Etana Jol - Sun, 21 Oct 2018 13:58:10 EST ID:2UPhFisy No.66054 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66053
Making Abe Lincoln on par with the savior of a planet was also a bit much, but I'd give TOS the "for its time..." defense. International affairs and social tensions being what they were, it was a beacon of cooperation, progress, inclusion, etc. Enterprise, in premise and execution, felt like a step back. It was more of a product of its times than a dream of better times ahead.
>>
Kiri-kin-tha - Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:24:53 EST ID:PKki+GTG No.66056 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66051
I really hate it for all of you that let something as stupid as a theme song ruin 98 episodes of Trek.
>>
Lt. Cmdr. Jack Crusher - Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:56:48 EST ID:b2kjICL7 No.66057 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66051 More crew were from America. The engineer talking Huckleberry Fin with a straw in the mouth. Struggle for technological understanding in relation to America 1950-1960's.
>>
Vash - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 00:08:57 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66058 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66054
> It was more of a product of its times than a dream of better times ahead.

that is what I have been trying to say but put much more eloquently than I had put it

same with DIS, that's why I put them in the same camp
>>
Gregory Quinn - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 00:39:05 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66059 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66048
The guy you were responding to was talking about the ENT theme, not the STD one, which has happened like three times since we started talking about it. Specify your themes crewmen!

>>66046
Sorry, but Trek really is an American show, ENT is the most international of them all and its still not very. Also, what aerospace exploration accomplishments of other nations (besides the ISS) could they show without it just being Russians and Americans? I agree they should have thrown in frames of Sputnik and Gagarin, a Soyuz or two, but that's about it.
>>
Vash - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 00:58:39 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66060 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66059
>ENT is the most international of them all

absolutely not true
>>
Liquidator Brunt - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:46:06 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66065 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66050
TNG and TOS were also American shows designed for American audiences but they actively tried to be as international as possible. They undeniably come out as American products but the effort is clear and that's what matters. ENT's intro takes a giant shit all over that throwing a few off-hand references to the achievements of other nations and then going full American as if nobody else has achieved anything since the age of sail. For god's sake it doesn't have a single image of the Soviet space achievements. Not even Gagarin which is the bare minimum you'd expect.

If anything I find the this more offensive than the music. Even if you watch the introduction with Archer's Theme as was originally planned this sinks it.
>>
Liquidator Brunt - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:39:18 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66067 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66056
Hatred for the introduction aside I've actually come to rather like early ENT. S1 and the first few episodes of S2 have a higher good:bad ratio than any part of VOY and a lot of early TNG. Obviously the later bits of S2 and '9/11 but in space' S3 are shite but it evens out again at S4.

The autists at Memory Alpha have got a list of every image used in the opening title for ENT here http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Enterprise_opening_title_sequences and I find it hard to believe one of those images couldn't be cut to stick Sputnik or whatever in or even have it included as a superimposed blueprint over something else. Why it bothers me is not that they only chose American achievements but that they clearly didn't even notice they were doing it which gives away that they never really understood Roddenberry's outlook. While I'm on the subject even as early as mid-TNG trek also started losing its classic naval/submarine feeling turning instead into an ensemble cast that happen to be in a spaceship, to be fair Stewart was never a good fit for gruff captain but the attempt to go for a classic First Officer - Captain arrangement wasn't bad.

>>66059
>Sorry, but Trek really is an American show, ENT is the most international of them all and its still not very.
Trek is an American produced-show that has always tried to avoid being blatantly American-only and has instead at its heart an ideal which is not internationalist as much as humanist. Culturally it's deeply American from its production to its acting style etc but its 'message' or 'theme' is not. It's maybe best described as an American take on the universal message of humanity being the best it can be etc, maybe there's an alternative universe where Trek was made in the UK and only came out in three x 6 episode series with slapstick comedy or it was French and full of adultery but the message of both of those would be the same even if the rest was different. Think of it like how The Orville is still fundamentally Trek at its core and how other American SF that should be Trek (DIS, Andromeda) is not and would not be even if the visual and acting styles were duplicated.

There's the core Trek ideal that can come apart from a show that explores it with that exploration being the bit rooted in the culture of whoever made the show.

>Also, what aerospace exploration accomplishments of other nations (besides the ISS) could they show without it just being Russians and Americans? I agree they should have thrown in frames of Sputnik and Gagarin, a Soyuz or two, but that's about it.
Plenty if you're willing to step outside of the handful of obvious examples ENT picked, off the top of my head:
Sir George Cayley would be obvious for all but founding the concept of aviation as a science.
Alcock and Brown had the first non-stop transatlantic flight in 1919, fully 8 years before Lindbergh, though granted it was a two-man flight and the distance somewhat shorter. They're broadly forgotten now for whatever reason.
Santos-Dumont would also be a good call since that gives you a South American involved with a lot of shit, the fact he offed himself in depression about aircraft being used for warfare rather than human advancement works too.
Perhaps another one of the French lads with their balloons or gliders though Dumont covers that more neatly and I wouldn't want to push it.

For a non-aerospace example what about some of the Arctic explorers? Amundsen was first to successfully explore the Northwest Passage (and not die in the attempt) and to reach the South Pole (also without dying, man was a fucking pro at that). On the subject of Scandinavians wouldn't the Norse were great explorers and reached North America long before anyone else did, roughly 1,000 years ago.

If you stick only to the last century of advances it is a bit of an issue since a great many of the European developments in terms of aircraft and rocketry took place during the World Wars or for military reasons and that doesn't fit so much with the themes of either Trek or what ENT's intro is trying to do in sticking to exploration. I don't think you can really put launching a V2 in there for example even if the German influence on rocketry was obviously rather important. Even if it was only Russians and Americans after 1920 that'd be a major improvement over American only though I'd probably also advocate for a bit more pre-20th Century (i.e. non-aerospace) achievements as well. Some of the less goofy early Greek maps wouldn't hurt, something from the Middle East/Mesopotamia (Babylonians and their astronomers at least). It seems very strange to have only five images for the 1000s of years of exploration and groundwork by every nation before 1900 and 26 all from one nation (many of which are essentially repeats of each other) for the ~250 years after it.



I am angry.
ANGRY ABOUT OPENING SEQUENCES
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Liquidator Brunt - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:59:39 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66068 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66067
>On the subject of Scandinavians wouldn't the Norse
Ignore the word wouldn't, don't know how that got in there.

>I don't think you can really put launching a V2 in there for example even if the German influence on rocketry was obviously rather important.
Wernher von Braun or someone else with potentially a little bit less of a NSDAP link would work here actually. Goddard got in so having another scientist wouldn't hurt at all. Also I know it's another Russian but Tsiolkovsky would make sense along these lines. It's not as flashy as people flying around in planes but we aren't Klingons so a few scientists wouldn't hurt.


Another thing that bothers me is that focussing so much on recent history to the exclusion of everything before it comes with the implicit assumption that it matters more or is better and that's pretty arrogant when the 20th and 21st centuries are considered just as backwards and savage as what came before in Trek's universe (perhaps moreso since we should have known better). Everyone always thinks their day, their generation and their civilisation/nation is the most advanced and knows so much better than the backwards savages who came before which is something ENT's intro reinforces and something that TOS and particularly TNG go to great pains to argue against.

At least I got a Ferengi name. I also have complaints about how S7 of DS9 handled them as a species but one rant at a time.
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Miles O'Brien - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:13:41 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.66069 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66067
>Roddenberry's outlook
only outlook he had was what would snow Lucy and Desi and score him blowjobs while he sold effects shot footage he stole from the studio to nerds
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Gregory Quinn - Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:58:05 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66070 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66060
Ok, it's the one with the most ACTUAL internationality, in that it is the only one to even acknowledge the existence of other nations besides the US and talk about their frustration with the American-ness of Starfleet.
The only other contender is TOS, but you have to remember that Doohan, Koenig and Nichols are all actually American, despite having characters that aren't (before you say I left out Takei, Sulu was born in San Francisco.)

>>66067
>> Culturally it's deeply American from its production to its acting style etc but its 'message' or 'theme' is not.
I know, and I mean, I'm mostly ok with it because it serves the end goal of boosting interest in space in general, however, if we were making these shows again today, we wouldn't be able to get away with it. Consider how Quark goes off talking about how root beer is so emblematic of the Federation. I didn't think anything about that until years later I learned that Americans are the only people in the world who like root beer. So this kinda implies that American culture goes on to become human culture, which is kinda fucked up, don't you think?

>>Plenty if you're willing to step outside of the handful of obvious examples ENT picked
I know dude, I know why you're reaching so hard. I really wish that there were more big tent examples of major aerospace accomplishments we could hand out, but there simply aren't. If it makes you feel better, the fact that all those milestones were reached by (Russians, then Americans) has nothing to do with Americans being superior at anything, but about them just happening to be the biggest bullies in the sandbox at the time that aerospace technology reached maturity.

>>For a non-aerospace example what about some of the Arctic explorers?
They gave us the HMS Enterprise which is about all we could ask for. I love the arctic expeditions and they are really important for the history of real-world exploration, but to put them in the intro is getting pretty far afield of the whole 'space' thing, right?

>> I don't think you can really put launching a V2
On that note, can we all at least agree that the Mirror ENT intro (which does feature the V2) is fucking badass?

>>Everyone always thinks their day, their generation and their civilisation/nation is the most advanced
Yes, Trek is a fallible show made by flawed humans subject to the artistic failings that all human art has been subject to everywhere. Surprised?
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Emperor Sompek - Tue, 23 Oct 2018 06:45:20 EST ID:VNvwTtGl No.66075 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66067
It tried to not be about America but it wasn't successful at all. The Federation has always just been a symbol of what America thinks it is. Especially in Tos.
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Lonzo - Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:01:53 EST ID:LCfgD/e0 No.66077 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66067
>alternative universe where Trek was made in the UK and only came out in three x 6 episode series with slapstick comedy
Quite a few trek episodes happened on Red Dwarf first. Not too much slapstick though. There's a lot of elements which you'd think were based on trek characters and ideas except they were in the UK on a space ship where you could see the "40 Watt" on the lightbulb when the camera panned around the engine.
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Groundskeeper Boothby - Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:49:15 EST ID:QLb0aPr0 No.66078 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66077
I recently thought to myself "Hey, Red Dwarf is a better TOS than TOS, they even shoot vacuum cleaners instead of TV remotes because they probably couldn't afford TVs after Holly". nb
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Wesley Crusher - Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:29:14 EST ID:lkTTz5pz No.66082 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66070
>but you have to remember that Doohan, Koenig and Nichols are all actually American, despite having characters that aren't
Oh dear.
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Gaila - Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:46:34 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66084 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66070
I'm not talking about the actors or the characters backgrounds even

we are talking about the theme and feel of the show itself

ENT plays out as if it is just a bunch of "yee-ha, truck driving, good ol' boys" going to space to "show them smarty pants foreigners how we do it out in the country and get them terrists cuz they killed muh sister! GOD BLESS FEDERATION"

every moment of the show just wreaks of the obsessive uber-patriotism that existed in America post 9/11 and if you are somehow missing that then you probably didn't live through post 9/11 America
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Emperor Reclaw - Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:48:25 EST ID:SfiMcBo4 No.66085 Ignore Report Quick Reply
lol Doohan is Canadian ya goofball
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Eliminator Leck - Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:56:19 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66103 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66070
>Ok, it's the one with the most ACTUAL internationality, in that it is the only one to even acknowledge the existence of other nations besides the US and talk about their frustration with the American-ness of Starfleet.
The other shows do not talk about other nations because nations no longer exist. Picard does bring up France and Frenchness as a cultural concept in early TNG though. Internationalist is the wrong word for Trek because it is proposing a removal of nations entirely.
>The only other contender is TOS, but you have to remember that Doohan, Koenig and Nichols are all actually American, despite having characters that aren't (before you say I left out Takei, Sulu was born in San Francisco.)
The fact that you lack basic knowledge about TOS and just assume you're correct is telling. Doohan was Canadian (with Irish, most likely Ulster Scots, parents), not just 'born in Canada and moved to America' Canadian-by-technicality either.

>know, and I mean, I'm mostly ok with it because it serves the end goal of boosting interest in space in general, however, if we were making these shows again today, we wouldn't be able to get away with it. Consider how Quark goes off talking about how root beer is so emblematic of the Federation. I didn't think anything about that until years later I learned that Americans are the only people in the world who like root beer. So this kinda implies that American culture goes on to become human culture, which is kinda fucked up, don't you think?
Good point, though I can't think of another non-obscure drink that would match up with the analogy. Two points on that though:
  1. It was in DS9, a show that arguably goes out of its way to attack the Roddenberry-style Federation as impractical (I still like the show mind, it's just very different in its fundamentals)
  2. Quark was using it as an analogy and giving his opinion that it was symbolic of the federation, sensible enough for a bartender to use since it's a drink
DS9 also shows both O'Brien and Bashir taking part in excessively British activities and maintaining a distinct culture entirely so it's not like American culture has crushed everyone else. It's also the case that DS9 shows some parts of contemporary American culture dying out: specifically baseball (actually TNG set that precedent of baseball having died out but still).

>I know dude, I know why you're reaching so hard. I really wish that there were more big tent examples of major aerospace accomplishments we could hand out, but there simply aren't.
None of those are reaching from the point of view of actually representing the subject matter, the fact that ENT's creators decided to go for the lowest common denominator with their intro is very much my complaint. TOS and TNG were not content with merely pandering to expectations in any area, they had a message to sell. ENT's intro makes it clear they're not trying to break any new ground and that's a lot of why it bothers me.
>If it makes you feel better, the fact that all those milestones were reached by (Russians, then Americans) has nothing to do with Americans being superior at anything, but about them just happening to be the biggest bullies in the sandbox at the time that aerospace technology reached maturity.
You are misrepresenting my complaints. I do not care who, exactly, shows up in the intro at all just that it fails to represent anything other than 'we want to be a generic TV show'.

>They gave us the HMS Enterprise which is about all we could ask for.
The Enterprise is a pretty terrible example for Arctic exploration though. I mean it had to be included for the name sure but it didn't do much exploration (or they did not, there were many ships with the name).
>I love the arctic expeditions and they are really important for the history of real-world exploration, but to put them in the intro is getting pretty far afield of the whole 'space' thing, right?
The introduction attempts to be more about exploration as a whole that just space travel. Look at the inclusion of underwater exploration for example. It's just that they failed to consider other examples or more likely were not self-aware enough to understand how slanted it was.

>On that note, can we all at least agree that the Mirror ENT intro (which does feature the V2) is fucking badass?
Certainly, though it does not feature the V2 at all.

>Yes, Trek is a fallible show made by flawed humans subject to the artistic failings that all human art has been subject to everywhere. Surprised?
But TNG and ENT did not have this failing. They in fact went out of their way to avoid it, constantly showing that not only was humanity in the 20th and 21st centuries deeply flawed but also that there's plenty of growing left to do. Look at episodes like Home Soil where, after fucking up and assuming life should be similar to them, the Federation/Humanity is told to fuck off for a hundred years and grow up a bit before contact can be made or any of the TNG episodes about superior beings. ENT on the other hand repeatedly goes out of its way to show how humans are always in the right as the plucky underdogs, hell all of Vulcan society was apparently corrupt just to justify humanity's frustration and impatience.

I'll try an explain again why the intro bothers me so much. Look at TOS and TNG: their introductions literally spell out that they're going to go out where others have not before and to seek out new ways of thinking about things and doing things. ENT's introduction on the other hand can be summed up as "to boldly not question our initial assumptions" by picking what any random person on the street would if they were asked.
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Eliminator Leck - Thu, 25 Oct 2018 07:03:53 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66104 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66075
Kirk is also unarguably American (I mean that in a good way) in his approach of sheriff-in-space morality, but that doesn't change the fact that the underlying ideal is universal.

>>66077
I know. Red Dwarf also has at least one explicit reference to TNG, Lister tells Kryten, who is asking about emotions, that he's hungover and it's too early for any of that Star Trek crap.
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Guinan - Tue, 30 Oct 2018 20:48:07 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.66174 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66067
The ENT intro really seemed set on powering through to space flight, with every image coming before that being little more than a pre-amble. Of course, there they also dropped the ball by leaving out the Russians. But with a broader theme of science and exploration, they could have included a fair share of the world.

Also, stuff like the Harrier, Concorde, or that giant Airbus seem to fit right in with the theme.
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Q - Sun, 04 Nov 2018 20:59:34 EST ID:0KyxXOfA No.66201 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66104
>I know. Red Dwarf also has at least one explicit reference to TNG, Lister tells Kryten, who is asking about emotions, that he's hungover and it's too early for any of that Star Trek crap.

I remember that, fellow Red Dwarf fan. I believe Kryton said something like "is the human quality you call friendship?".
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Jaresh-Inyo - Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:29:11 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66255 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66174
I'd be opposed to the Harrier due to its military nature but Concorde is one I'd completely forgotten about.
>>66201
That sounds right to me.
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Maihar'du - Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:45:59 EST ID:bOlOhkyn No.66259 Ignore Report Quick Reply
the concord just made supersonic airflight a toy of the rich for a relatively short time
it's basically an unreliable novelty
they'd be better to put the PBR Jet Pack in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_bcCQYaJEc
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Guinan - Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:19:11 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.66260 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66259
The Concorde wasn't really unreliable. It was new, it was expensive. But all new technologies are. And it was killed in the cradle.

I genuinely believe future historians will look at the Concorde as the high water mark of civilization unless we turn things around.. and soon. The end of the Space Shuttle, unreliable though it was, the potential loss of the ISS (since the Soyuz failed we might have to abandon it if things dont work out by late January), we are just seeing a slow tumble backwards technoligically. I mean what have the post-2000s really brought us other than streamlining existing technology? Computers and phones get faster and smaller, but other than reliable touchscreen technology, (which by the way Star Trek basically envisioned), we ain't got shit. The internet, or rather normies being allowed on the internet, has stalled human progress and put us in a place where we are all but teetering on the edge of a new dark age. I mean, for fucks sake flat earthers are spreading like wildfire..

But like I said killing the Concorde because one of them hit some birds is.. terrible. Imagine if we abandoned jet engines with the first failure. Or the airplane. Or the steam powered boat. I'm pretty sad the Concorde died. And I'd like to make the case that we should all be.
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Admiral Hayes - Wed, 14 Nov 2018 23:21:01 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66261 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66260
>And I'd like to make the case that we should all be
You got me man
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Kevin Mulkahey - Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:54:26 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66263 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66260
But all of this was foreseen. We knew a dark age was coming. Trek even tells us that to reach utopia we must pass through apocalypse. In fact, almost all science fiction has some version of that meme, and its not just because everyone is copying the 'Sci-Fi Cosmology.' It's a reasonable observation of the way the future always looks relative to the past and the present buried in the subconscious.

Think about it this way. We know that history moves like a pendulum, oscillating between different extremes (regardless of which extreme you call 'good' or 'bad'.) But we also know that history is a feedback loop, magnifying everything about itself with each pass -- be that technology, cultural complexity, etc.

Which means, if we plot the path of the pendulum through time, we have an oscillating waveform that's perpetually increasing in amplitude. Wherever you are along that curve, from your perspective, the next time you will reach a peak higher than the last peak you encountered, you will have to pass through a trough deeper than the last trough you remember. Every. Single. Time.

The underlying question is, like with any feedback loop, at what point does the oscillation overwhelm the capacity of the medium to sustain it?
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Governor Torak - Fri, 16 Nov 2018 13:21:11 EST ID:yunQUjt5 No.66265 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66263
Except it's more like an upwards trend with larger up and downswings. So I know North/West European history best so I'll focus on that. The dark ages weren't actually as bad as people think and they were miles ahead of any pre roman empire shit. The renaissance was followed by the Napoleonic wars but we didn't even go backwards, we just slowed a bit. Then the industrial revolution was simultaneously awful and a huge step forward and so on.

I'm not even sure it's a single line. I think Guinan's post oversimplifies it too. We've had plenty of new tech and to say we've had nothing is to be really inconsistent with the definition of reinventing ideas. Those more streamlined phones use processors that have a manufacturing method we couldn't image even a decade ago. We are slowly working at editing the DNA of live cells. We can grow spare body parts of meat without cruelty in a fucking warehouse. We have betetr AIs. Culture is both stagnating and improving and we do have a strong growing undercurrent of ignorance and falsehood brought on by new media but it's always existed. It's just we'd previously found ways to master the old media and now we need to rise to the challenge again and ensure it enlightens rather than encourages anti vaxxers and flat earthers. At the same time during my life time a man could legally rape his wife, we are much less needlessly cruel to people who don't just want to fuck the opposite sex, women actually sometimes pay their half of the bill when you eat out. Now admittedly education is being defunded, the vulnerable abandoned to give the rich tax breaks and we're heading to our own bell riots scenario but at the same time it's not like everything will stop as we approach that point.
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Tora Ziyal - Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:18:50 EST ID:iAqQnJBT No.66271 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66265
>>Except it's more like an upwards trend with larger up and downswings
So kinda like a line, with oscillations of increasing amplitude??

>>phones use processors that have a manufacturing method we couldn't image even a decade ago
Well, while phone manufacturing has been streamlined relative to a decade ago, processor tech hasn't changed in that time frame. We still use photolithography of MOSFET semiconductors, which is relatively ancient technology. We are shrinking feature sizes using that same paradigm, however.

>> It's just we'd previously found ways to master the old media and now we need to rise to the challenge again
You're oversimplifying the point which is why I think you're missing it. We're not just talking about media, we're talking about every aspect of society. The notion of continually growing advancements is precisely what I'm talking about, and everything you listed as positive can also have a negative. What we are now experiencing is the negative side of the positive we experienced when the internet first boomed. DNA editing can cure cancer and create demi-human chimeras. Vat-meat could solve animal cruelty but not without first concentrating food production in the hands of a few. Better AIs could calculate the answer to humanity's problems or calculate humanity is the problem.

My point is not that things aren't improving, it's that what appears to be decay and degradation are actually their own phases of evolution. The thing people need to realize is that the rebound is just as much a part of the process of progress as the good times. It is the wind up, it stores the energy which makes the progress possible. So, the sky isn't falling -- or it is, but it has fallen before, and it will fall again. It's just part of the process.
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Raven Overcoming Orchid !Tz0ULG.7to - Sat, 17 Nov 2018 21:37:24 EST ID:pA4PLfmO No.66272 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66260
>The end of the Space Shuttle, unreliable though it was, the potential loss of the ISS (since the Soyuz failed we might have to abandon it if things dont work out by late January)

Thing is, the Shuttle was a boondoggle in the end. If we had spent the same amount of money and R&D on a traditional launch system we could have done so much more with that money. The Shuttle was an artifact of NASA's corrupt 'we can get a metric fuckton of cash if we can figure out how to work nuclear weapons into the sales pitch' Reagan administration days.

We're paying for that now, because that launch system had a finite life span akin to someone driving a 40k car they bought brand new 20 years ago, but now it just sits in the back yard because it has 260k miles and it has rod knock.

Also it's a shame the Russian Federation never kept up it's work on the Buran. A space shuttle that didn't have integrated engines would have been so much more useful. Well, the rocket that shot it into space would have been useful, since you could use it to throw 3 space shuttle's weight of payload into space.

Here's a micro-doc about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLx4L5NRU0&vl=en
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Vice Admiral Leyton - Sat, 17 Nov 2018 21:49:49 EST ID:Hw08xEz2 No.66274 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66271
but we figured out how to stack shit. That's the serious advancement that brought us Systems on a chip and HBM memory. ARM processors are also legitimately catching up in terms of competitiveness with desktop workloads. 10 more years and we might see them in powerful rigs instead of just netbooks and phones.

Whereas 10 years ago ARM was the go-to for super heavily multithreaded servers with hundreds of cores running thanks to ARM's power efficiency.
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Guinan - Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:02:46 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.66277 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66271
>>66263
Well said, society functions like a metronome, and a swing to one end necessitates a swing to the other. As it is said, there is no light without darkness. And as Star Trek tells us, the only way to a utopian future is through decades of hell. Let's hope that's truly the case because we might be in for a hell of a ride.

>>66265
First, I apologize for the rant.. but.. well, I feel the dichotomy of the Vaccines-R-Gud vs the Vaccines-cause-autism is a false dichotomy that hides the reality of the situation by way of polarization

I'm just going to have to point something out here, something that I personally have never heard voiced, aside from in my own opinion. Vaccines are not good for humanity. And not for the reasons the so-called anti-vaxxer movement stereotypically claims. I believe if you understand the basics of evolutionary theory, you might agree with me, unless you've been overly-conditioned by the polarized propoganda that surrounds both 'sides' of this issue.

To put it in terms Sisko would understand, giving yourself a vaccine is like playing a game of slow pitch softball with children. Getting a disease and beating it yourself is like playing real baseball, with adults, some of which might play in the minor and major leagues. You might get your ass kicked, but as long as you survive, it'll make you a better player. The idea of 'herd immunity' weakens the entire herd by selecting for immune weakness, by taking away the only real form of natural selection that still exists in a civilized species. And worst of all, it's predicated on the false belief that antibiotics are more than temporary. But they aren't. We are engaged in an arms race between microbiota and science which we are mathematically guaranteed to lose. It is inevitable, and worse yet, it may be less than a century away. We can develop as many antibiotic compounds as we like, but life, as Jeff Goldblum says, "uh.. finds a way", and with microbes it does so very quickly, as the microbes living on and around your body have had a generation or two born in the time it took you to read this. Ever see soap or hand sanitizer that claims it kills 99.9% of all germs? Consider that the .1% that survives passes on its survival techniques. It is only a matter of time before evolution overcomes scientific innovation. And all the while, we are training our immune systems for weakness. And it's not just genetic, by the way, I'm not just saying the people who have genetic defects that make them have a weak immune system are the problem. Consider epigenetics, the emerging science that studies the shells of chromosomes. These shells, long thought to be more or less worthless, contain a vast amount of information and control which genes are activated, which are turned off, as well as a wealth of hormonal triggers. But the interesting thing about epigenetics is that we see that things that happen to you in your lifetime can affect which genes are hormones are triggered not only in you for the rest of your life, but in your subsequent children, and their children as well. Three generations. Epigenetics, so far as we know is mostly related to dietary and IMMUNE responses. That's right, immune responses. By dicking around with our immune systems, we are likely affecting the way that our children's, and their children's immune systems function. And what's worse, in most modern societies, there is no control group. No one who doesn't take these vaccines to point to and say 'hey look these guys are shit so therefore vaccines work'. And all for what? To eliminate polio? You realize that only about 1-3% of polio cases ended up with paralysis? Most people wouldn't even know they had the disease. The worst part is anyone who wants to opt out gets lumped into the same category. Sorry, but life is suffering. No one likes being sick, but give it a century or two and vaccines will have only paved the way for some unforseen microbe to kill hundreds of millions, who will have no antibiotics to turn to, and whose ancestors ensured they would have a weakened immune system because walgreens was giving away flu shots for only $20. Humans are so short-sighted when it comes to the future of their own species. If you're going to get vaccinations, it should be as minimal as possible, against the worst diseases only. Not the flu. Not chickenpox. That's fucking stupid. Your immune system needs to do battle with the real thing, as it has since time immemorial, that's how it works. And don't even get me started on fertility treatments.

Secondly, your claim that things were better for most societies in the dark ages than before the Roman Empire seems like a sweeping generalization that ignores the fact that many agricultural and technological innovations were simple lost from one generation to another. Things, technologically, scientifically, and intellectually speaking, were worse than before the days of the Roman Empire for most of Europe, for the first several hundred years at least.

But back to Ziyal's point, (>>66271), whatever hardships the human race endures only serve to propel us to the next level of our evolution. And there are a lot of things facing us in the future, but I am (relatively) hopeful that we can not only overcome them but emerge the better for it.. I only fear that it will take centuries to get there and I'll have to deal with the shit. >>66271
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Weyoun 8 - Sun, 18 Nov 2018 06:01:39 EST ID:yunQUjt5 No.66284 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>66271
We're not swinging backwards and forwards, we're on a drunken wander in an upwards direction. So no, what I'm saying is you're wrong because while we are going up and down, overall we go up further than down. We will not descend into a deeper dark ages than before civilisation, we will not even descend to pre industrial levels. We might drop a bit and we will climb to new heights when we realise our potential. Eventually we will swing but it won't be as far down as the swing before it, even if it will be further from the trend.

I focused on the media because you seemed obsessed with stuff that's just social media noise. I even said it gets more complicated. Stop being obtuse, refusing to acknowledge someone else's points and pretending they said something else doesn't make you more convincing. By the way, I know our space stations are failing but on the other hand we have gotten very good at selfies in cool places.
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Gul Evek - Sun, 18 Nov 2018 08:28:24 EST ID:cVf3qXYu No.66285 Ignore Report Quick Reply
When the conversation goes from "can't wait for season 2" to whatever the fuck you poindexters are talking about I think it's safe to say that The Orville really is the new Trek. When Cosmos comes back Fox should air them on the same night.
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Tora Ziyal - Sun, 18 Nov 2018 17:17:38 EST ID:HeFO2p/X No.66286 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66284
>>So no, what I'm saying is you're wrong because while we are going up and down, overall we go up further than down
That's exactly what I'm saying, so you're wrong that I'm wrong because you have shit reading comprehension, but you're right because you never actually disagreed with me in the first place.

>>Stop being obtuse, refusing to acknowledge someone else's points
It was my point. I am the one who made the original statement that you objected to. How can I refuse to acknowledge my own point? I never said anything about space stations. You have clearly confused yourself on who you were talking to.
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Harry Mudd - Tue, 11 Dec 2018 09:24:02 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66498 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66259
>the concord just made supersonic airflight a toy of the rich for a relatively short time
That was mostly because the underlying concept of supersonic flight was sabotaged (e.g. the trumped up issues with sonic booms) for economic reasons such as when it was realised you could just sell 'first class' subsonic for the same mark-up and make a much higher profit, among other things. That and the Soviets had given up on doing it after fucking it up so it was no longer a concern to respond to them. Actual space exploration (i.e. the Apollo program) was also abandoned once it was no longer a useful geopolitical tool. It's pretty sad in both cases when you consider that the handful of millions it would cost to fund is nothing compared to the cost of e.g. the Iraq War (trillions total) but the depressing fact is humanity only bothers seriously trying to invent new technology for either greed or conflict (and the latter is arguably a sub-type of profit, since some form of material or narrow gain is the goal of conflict). The current goal of humanity is the accumulation of resources and playing that game well means not investing in technology that won't help you do so.

If you want to think of a practical reason for the Federation abandoning money beyond it just sounding utopian maybe it's that: to change the incentive for doing things from only profit/survival to its own reward but acknowledging that humanity at least is flawed so replacing that reward with reputation. Multiple times TNG mentions that reputation (for example through service in Starfleet) is the only way to 'gain' in the Federation I think at least once in direct comparison to how the gaining and hoarding of wealth/resources is a big incentive in our time (possibly the episode with the defrosted 21st century people?).
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Guinan - Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:35:09 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.66541 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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This episode is pretty fucking good so far
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Minuet - Fri, 22 Feb 2019 05:11:20 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.66544 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66541
I'm watching them on a week's delay, but that's good to hear. Season 2 has been pretty underwhelming, with all this relationship focus so far. Not to mention the cutest cast member leaving and being replaced with someone I'm not too hot on.
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Guinan - Fri, 22 Feb 2019 17:25:52 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.66549 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66544
The loss of Alara is really sad for me too.. but this next episode was pretty nuckin futz. I'd like to say something about it but I feel like anything would be a spoiler. Can't wait for next week's
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Natima Lang - Sat, 23 Feb 2019 05:42:26 EST ID:8wC6phSM No.66555 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66541
Great season so far. Only thing I didn't like this episode is how there is no explanation about why he is the only one without red eyes.
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Vic Fontaine - Sat, 23 Feb 2019 07:01:07 EST ID:4WVh8sFm No.66558 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66555
cuz he's probably gonna be doing a double agent shit and save everybody or something
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Guinan - Sat, 23 Feb 2019 09:45:10 EST ID:D65nZOLV No.66559 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66555
I'd say it was mostly for the audience's benefit in identifying Isaac amongst his fellow robot people
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Vedek Bareil - Sat, 23 Feb 2019 10:38:14 EST ID:qQ52nl19 No.66560 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66555
This was a very silly episode to me. Especially the first "big reveal".

Seriously, of course they went full Skynet on their creators. How else do you wind up with a planet of only robots and no organics? How did no one in the Federation put that 2 and 2 together?
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Lt. JG Saavik - Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:27:42 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66561 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66541
Saw the twist coming a mile away but at least we're getting something other than pure relationship crap for once.
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Arik Soong - Sat, 23 Feb 2019 23:19:57 EST ID:jmSOtBOw No.66562 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66549
I look forward to it. It's sad that I have to keep out of this thread, but it has already spoiled stuff for me. We picked a weird day to watch it.

But yes, Alara leaving the show sucks. The new character seems rushed, and mostly there to fill the Alara-shaped gap in the script. I would have liked if they'd done some fun meta humor with the new character, such as casting a smaller actress but making the character ever stronger. Would have opened up the possibility of more exaggerated weight lifting gags. Right now, she just seems kind of... there. I really feel nothing for her, and there hasn't been any good chemistry with the rest of the crew. All the other characters have had good set-ups, some in single episodes or in a few scenes. They haven't done anything like that with the new girl, probably because she's following scripts that already assume all that already happened.

Anyway, I won't read this for a while, I think. Spoilers and all.
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Nurse Alyssa Ogawa - Sun, 24 Feb 2019 20:33:25 EST ID:Qo4yytmf No.66572 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66562
> I would have liked if they'd done some fun meta humor with the new character, such as casting a smaller actress but making the character ever stronger.
I'd have been ok with going for an explicit play on the Pulaski situation in TNG and setting up arbitrary conflict with a member of the crew and then randomly throw her off the ship a season later.
>I really feel nothing for her, and there hasn't been any good chemistry with the rest of the crew.
They jumped too quickly into giving her a conflict episode (deflectors) before she'd had time to settle in with the crew. It'd have been much better if she initially got on extremely well with both Klyden and Bortus due to perhaps their being blunt/uncomplicated or somesuch and THEN Klyden turned out to harbour what would be by her standards at least very backwards views. At least then you'd have a story that was more about how it's not just the generic fundamentalists/neo-nazis who can be prejudiced but also people who barring some specific prejudices are otherwise open-minded and likeable. That'd be preferable to a retread of 'Mocclan society is cruel/backwards/slow to change/whatever' which was already handled in multiple previous episodes.

Basically I'd have made Deflectors an episode about how serious societal prejudice is mostly silent/invisible and enforced by normal people, not by the usually small but vocal extremists. In general this gets forgotten because communities like to blame that small group even if almost everyone implicitly gave their consent to that group's actions: sort of like how Germany decided to blame only the SS and Gestapo for what happened in Germany.
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M'Pella - Mon, 25 Feb 2019 02:30:43 EST ID:8wC6phSM No.66575 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66559
Of course but it could have been addressed by someone. Someone had to have noticed. The kids were there too. They would have definitely asked. Then he'd give some plausible reason like humans prefer it to red but no, they just didn't address it at all.
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Keiko O'Brien - Thu, 28 Feb 2019 22:59:38 EST ID:bsMTOC3z No.66602 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Really fantastic ending to that 2 parter
Keep up the good shit Orville
that space battle was like 100x more interesting than anything in Discovery
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Noah Lessing - Fri, 01 Mar 2019 01:03:46 EST ID:5SVJcPG+ No.66603 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66602
I agree, it was a bit predictable but predictable doen't mean unenjoyable. I found I really liked this 2 parter.

I can't decide if the Krill are supposed to be the early romulans or klingons but the way the acted in this episode it certainly seemed more like a romulan relationship.
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Dr. Mora Pol - Sat, 02 Mar 2019 19:05:04 EST ID:+xWHDIPk No.66606 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66555
They mentioned that he was the only one built by the AI while all the others were built by the exterminated species. That may not be an explicit explanation but it implies a reason.
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KC Hunter - Sat, 02 Mar 2019 21:47:03 EST ID:5SVJcPG+ No.66607 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66606
and why did they only need to build one? Does it have different specs? If their ranks were decimated inthe rebellion then they would have made more than one. Maybe Issac was/is their Section 01001101001 agent
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Commander Tebok - Sun, 03 Mar 2019 10:33:20 EST ID:6z6q1K3s No.66611 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66607
They built one because they decided they only needed one.
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Alexander Cedron - Wed, 13 Mar 2019 08:31:27 EST ID:VxCpzI+0 No.66706 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I liked the new episode, it was nice to see Gordon not be just comic relief.
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Christopher Brynner - Sat, 16 Mar 2019 20:30:31 EST ID:+xWHDIPk No.66752 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>66706
yeah that last one had an extra dose of trek vibes, the comedy seemed to be thrown in just because they had to hit a quota of jokes or some thing. Not that it was bad by any stretch. Just couldn't help but see the various trek episodes this had influence from.


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