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420chan is Getting Overhauled - Changelog/Bug Report/Request Thread (Updated July 26)

Now Playing on /1701/tube -

Star Trek Discovery General

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- Mon, 01 Apr 2019 11:51:39 EST Skwb3B8f No.66908
File: 1554133899116.webm [mp4] -(4025142B / 3.84MB, 640x360) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. Star Trek Discovery General
Season two is pretty cool so far.

Is that bald section 31 dude (forget his name) now the first borg?

Do you like disco, do you hate it, why?

Every star trek since TOS was initially met with huge fan hate for a season or two then eventually accepted.
I say give Disco a few more seasons to shape up.

Biggest difference I feel between DISCO and other series other than the obvious visual style is that they are trying very hard to tap into the popular "game of thrones" formula, endless ingruige and mystery and possible betrayal all happening at once on top of each other.
>>
Orator Plegg - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 14:51:01 EST enZKp2kx No.66910 Reply
I watched season 1, didn't bother with season 2 so far, maybe in the future.

And you summarized exactly what I think about STD. While I do understand the criticism, I honestly don't care if it is cannon or not or that is a different visual style. What I do care about is: character development so I actually care about what happens and a rather slow pace, so I can cruise along and enjoy the show, so to say. STD is the opposite, tries to be GOT/Walking Dead and so on, with twists and turns and pressing plot and storylines into 1 season what should have been stretched out for 2 or even 3 seasons, like take your fucking time man. Result is, for me personally, that I didn't care in the slightest for what happened in season 1, but I do think that the characters have potential. I'll wait and see I guess.
>>
Vedek Bareil - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 00:01:27 EST mBuSEZKW No.66919 Reply
>>66908

I definitely think S2 was better than S1. But not by much, they've ironed out some of the dressing but IMO it's still fundamentally the wrong format.
I think what you said about the GoT formula as applied to Star Trek is dead on, and I think that's why I hate this show. I don't mind longer plot arcs, I don't even mind having a main character whos great at everything, but at it's core Star Trek should be about weird serialized adventures, going places no one has gone before. STD just feels like it's trying to imitate things that have already done well. It's like a greatest hits album, all remastered but nothing I haven't already gotten somewhere.

And whatever else anyone wasnts to say about Enterprise, if someone is going to do a prequel it was really smart not to do it so close to TOS so you don't have to compete with not only the actual show, but also the show people think they remember.

Best one this season was the one where they found planet spacechurch. It was an actual exploration of the concept of tolerance, even if it was kind of surface level. It tied into the greater arc of the season but mostly it was just a weird sci-fi story. And the guy they got for Pike is doing a wonderful job interpreting the character in a way that feels like it's alive but fits with the original. I didn't see the finale though, anyone know if they fucked that up too?

I'll probably check out a few S3 episodes, but not with any real urgency
>>
Lauren - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 01:04:47 EST 5SVJcPG+ No.66920 Reply
>>66908
>Is that bald section 31 dude (forget his name) now the first borg?
no

>Do you like STD, do you hate it, why?
For the same reasons that have been explained 1000 times since it aired. Its a mediocre dark sci-fi show and its not Trek.

>Every star trek since TOS was initially met with huge fan hate for a season or two then eventually accepted.
Not really true. I was on the BBSes when TNG and all the other series aired. Its also a dumb excuse for 2 seasons of garbage.
>>
James Randi - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 05:59:12 EST Skwb3B8f No.66923 Reply
>>66920
There were litteral protests when TNG came on air.
People shit their pants not being able to see the continuing adventures of Kirk, Spock and Bones.
Im trying to find the video but all i can find on google are ST episodes and clips about protest.
But there were a bunch of nerds back in the day picketing CBS for TNG.
You are incorrect.
>>
David Marcus - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 09:56:11 EST tQ6VbZqQ No.66924 Reply
I had to drop this trash, after 5 episodes, there was no hook for this season. It's just so fucking dumb.
>>
T'Pol - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 13:07:08 EST 4xG8xdJJ No.66926 Reply
On a serious note: As of why I hate it
Look at the webm in op.
  • The camera swirls around like this is a theme park ride and not a tv show.
  • The aspect ratio is some weird cinemascope shit, a huge fuck you to 99.99% of the audience.
  • A full screen faux cgi starfleet logo made just in order for Kurtzman to jerk it. I am making real Star Trek now, CBS said so, fap, fap, fap
>>
Ensign McFarlane - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 14:58:54 EST oDV8iW5L No.66927 Reply
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>>66908
I dropped this horseshit halfway into season 1
I dont think Ill ever watch another epiaode based off what Ive read here
Im angry CBS tricked me into watching it for that long, I kept waiting for it to get good or Burnham to get interesting or likeable>>66908
>>
Lt. JG Ayala - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 16:11:42 EST 4WVh8sFm No.66929 Reply
>>66923
are you really trying to defend this dumpster fire that they keep throwing hobo feces on to fan the flames?
>>
Greskrendtregk - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 10:27:52 EST 5SVJcPG+ No.66946 Reply
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>>66923
Yes, there was initial backlash but that faded very quickly into season one. I was very active in the BBS and IRC scene at the time. People warmed to it very quickly. Here we are at the end of season 2 of STD and its still awful.

That is also still no excuse for the pile of shit that is STD. They have 100's of shows, many films, plenty of established canon and storylines and lots of great people they could have brought on to help out not to mention a single episode budget almost as large as a full season budget of the other shows. TNG didn't have that. They had a show that was a couple of decades old and that was about it so people were initially worried Pre-air and before you get into TNG S2 you have to remember there was a writers strike at the same time.

There wasn't one for STD. Stop making excuses for a bad show. Plus there were still standout episodes that showed what it would really become in S1 and S2 of TNG. You can't say the same about STD.
>>
James Randi - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 17:55:39 EST aJUgXMgP No.66954 Reply
>>66946
I mean your allowed to not like it but it feels like your one of those guys who won't let others like for complicated nerd reasons.
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 18:07:52 EST 7hZAtms2 No.66956 Reply
>>66955
Complicated nerd shit is what we do. How does that not qualify as valid reasoning? Actually his reasoning isn't even nerd based either so wtf lol
>>
T'Pol - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 18:24:59 EST gOUFeB9G No.66957 Reply
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>>66946
You'd think some one in the business would have had this exact thought but it doesn't look like it. Actually I think the fact that TNG had a decades old show with very little hardline established lore was a benefit over STD having nearly 50 years of series and movies to draw on. Runtime for combined trek is some thing like 531 hours. I doubt the new blood bothered to pay attention to that so they will just call it a retcon when ever they contradict established lore. I mean we have seen out right retcons that they call them selves out on but most of the time they are silent which tells me they didn't even know. TNG had the benefit of a small rule book and still having the Rod to hand down stone tablets from on high.

Another factor to consider is the ENT and STD have a similar problem being prequels. They are effectively locked into a set of available lore and technical deus ex to draw on before they start stepping on the other series toes. Trek doesn't have the Lucas rhyme to excuse all the superficial call backs the normies love so much.
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:58:05 EST 7hZAtms2 No.66959 Reply
>>66957
>Another factor to consider is the ENT and STD have a similar problem being prequels. They are effectively locked into a set of available lore and technical deus ex to draw on before they start stepping on the other series toes.

THAT'S THEIR OWN FUCKING FAULT. WHO ASKED FOR MORE PREQUEL SERIES BULLSHIT???????
>>
Dr. Leah Brahms - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 21:22:31 EST ULR8MfpV No.66962 Reply
Disco fans say the darndest things

-"Everyone says Orville is better then Discovery, they must all be the same person/shills"

-"I'm tired of hearing how much Disco sucks" they say as they berate anyone who doesn't like Disco

  • "This is another Star Wars debate, can't we just SHUT UP and ENJOY mediocrity in peace?" aka I'm closing my mind now because I can't handle opinions

-"wow this is a FALSE NARRATIVE about how Discovery fans act" denial when confronted with the truth

-"everyone hated TNG at first just give it a chance"

-"sorry sweaty I guess you're just not a REAL Trek fan :^)"
>>
Dr. Crell Moset - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 21:44:26 EST 5SVJcPG+ No.66964 Reply
>>66957
ENT isn't a big deal because its so far in the past. STD is so close to TOS that they put themselves in a corner they should have never backed into.
>>
Ulani Belor - Fri, 05 Apr 2019 01:49:24 EST mUFyhJM4 No.66966 Reply
>>66962
>"everyone hated TNG at first just give it a chance"
Kinda true. But it's much more true of DS9, which turned out to be the best of them all. I've checked Usenet archives. The DS9 hate was real.
Granted, TNG Season 1 was too early for Usenet and any online discussion of it is lost basically entirely to the old BBS culture. Probably a lot of the DS9 discussion as well.

Some episodes of Discovery are kinda good but very very few are even close to the kind of things Trek fans wanted out of the series.

Orville doesn't quite hit that mark either but I think combined with the fact that it wasn't really expected to, and ended up a lot closer than most of us thought it's excellently received for very good reason. The Discovery fans who don't also get into the Orville are just nuTrek scum honestly.

I can respect whatever opinions someone has about Discovery until they start shitting on The Orville. Like, get the fuck out.
>>
Kalita - Fri, 05 Apr 2019 04:40:27 EST 4WVh8sFm No.66967 Reply
>>66959
fucking no one around here man we all wanted post NEM

well I did and I ignored anyone who didn't so yeah all of us
>>
Vosk - Fri, 05 Apr 2019 18:36:23 EST Ao2CSlMZ No.66974 Reply
>>66967
I don't think there was anyone to ignore. I didn't ignore anyone who said "Yeah I want a prequel that's hemmed in a la Star Wars EP1" there wasn't any.

What we wanted was to explore new ideas, both in terms of sci fi concepts and drama and in the ethical queries they're used as a vehicle to examine. Which is to say ironically we all wanted more discovery than Discovery offers.
>>
Admiral Cartwright - Sat, 06 Apr 2019 00:12:38 EST n5hjEHcg No.66976 Reply
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I really wish they wouldn't do the paying homage to TOS routine, it just looks silly. I'm quite confident people can figure out it's a product of the sfx they had at the time, and shouldn't be taken seriously. They even have Sulu's little viewscreen thing on the side of the console.
>>
Jaro Essa - Sat, 06 Apr 2019 07:54:58 EST HeFO2p/X No.66980 Reply
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>>66976
>>I'm quite confident people can figure out it's a product of the sfx they had at the time, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
See this is where I disagree. Think about all the success Star Wars has had from directly lifting their past designs. I think the problem is you either have to be completely committed to the retro look or completely abandon it, doing both half-assed like they are is the worst. With different lighting and higher quality materials, there's no reason that the functional layout of the TOS Enterprise couldn't serve as the set for a modern series...even a dumb grimdark one like they want.
I think it's kinda anachronistic that we like, see a bridge officer with a VR headset strapped to their face and think 'oh, that's more realistic, cause it's more futuristic'...naw, it's less realistic, because it's more just like now. If you really wanted to have VR 200 years from now, you probably wouldn't have anything strapped to your face. I think that the simpleness of everything about the staging and props of TOS actually makes their technology seem even more powerful, because it's without mechanism. It forces you to create a headcanon based on the knowledge of the era you're watching it in. The more you spend time getting bogged down in depicting every detail of how the tech works, you get mired in technobabble, you get deus ex machina of the week, you get CGI pissing race, and ultimately you get a vision of the 'future' that looks mostly like 10 years from whenever it's being made.
TOS is so timeless because there is so little directly explained and shown, so much is left up to the imagination, it's all very abstract and almost archetypal. There's no reason trek couldn't go in that direction again, either with new designs or just by flat out redoing the old ones in 4K splendor... and hey, maybe it might nudge them a little bit to focusing on plot over appearance
>>
Captain Solok - Sat, 06 Apr 2019 22:44:34 EST Ff21M7Ti No.66985 Reply
>>66980
I'm inclined to agree. Maybe re-making the sound effects is in order, maybe punching them up, adding detail and maybe some variety. But there should really be no "re-imagining" at all going on.

Gotta keep the heart of the aesthetic intact. Just like the Alien movies. Just like Discovery's visuals don't. That's why it's even more important that they maintain the aesthetic in the sound or it would become absolutely unrecognizable, which it nearly is already.
>>
Captain Solok - Sat, 06 Apr 2019 22:50:52 EST Ff21M7Ti No.66986 Reply
>>66980
>I think it's kinda anachronistic that we like, see a bridge officer with a VR headset strapped to their face and think 'oh, that's more realistic, cause it's more futuristic'...naw, it's less realistic, because it's more just like now

Yeah, and they don't really need that technology. Technically somewhere in the expanded literature those CRT-looking terminal screens are actually supposed to be sophisticated 3D volumetric displays.

Now that's something we can kind of do now in very limited ways but imagining the advanced version of that tech is still interesting and futuristic. Plus that's when you get to throw in the hologram effects the Disco people have such a goddamn hard-on for.
But nope, they replaced them with 2D flatscreens and hologram emitters all over the goddamn place. They made it worse because none of them even knew that those viewscreens were supposed to be advanced tech or anything but outdated CRT monitors.

Cause they're not super into Trek, and honestly even if you are that's a pretty goddamn esoteric tidbit that probably wasn't even truly canon. But someone should have told them because it's a great idea.
>>
Cmdr. Kelby - Sun, 07 Apr 2019 06:04:33 EST auA3fFrN No.66988 Reply
>>66984
>Star Trek: Discovery might have been written by the DNC. Burnham’s speech about values is full of empty, easy platitudes; her real, bigoted attitude and her willingness to embrace high-handed regime change can be glossed over, because she and the rest of the cast are sufficiently diverse. I’ve watched and read a lot of science fiction, but this might be the most depressing one I’ve ever experienced: a future in which the best that can be imagined is American foreign policy repeating itself endlessly, forever.

Very well said. Good article, thanks for sharing!
>>
Lonzo - Sun, 07 Apr 2019 09:48:22 EST LLyWU8IA No.66989 Reply
>>66984
Thanks for that read. It was a bit long, but so worth it.
>>
Leck - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 01:35:12 EST HeFO2p/X No.66991 Reply
>>66986
>>Cause they're not super into Trek, and honestly even if you are that's a pretty goddamn esoteric tidbit that probably wasn't even truly canon. But someone should have told them because it's a great idea.
Faqts. Honestly they're steamrolling huge regions of the canon simply because they simply don't know what's already been addressed (and better than they're doing it.) I'm looking at you protoborg bullshit. So much for the 'superfans' in the writer's room...
>>
NJ the artist formerly known as (notAI) !qBlnbPq3cw - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 04:42:07 EST gDXL6mvm No.66992 Reply
For the record I've seen the first three episodes of the first season.
And now I've seen that clip, which looks like something from an episode of power rangers. and it's a good thing the power rangers theme song was in that cartoony clip.
As far as I'm concerned there's no reason to go any further with that show.

BRING ON THE NEW ADVENTURES OF OLD PICARD!
Though from the rumor mill I've heard, that suckers in trouble before it's even begun!
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 11:15:07 EST 31ynL/Cp No.66993 Reply
I just wish the writing staff would read this board.
>>
Jaresh-Inyo - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 11:17:48 EST MUJ4M6tq No.66994 Reply
Binged the first season and a couple eps from the 2nd. It's alright I guess, Tbh I'm just happy to watch a well produced scifi show. I can easily zone out the fact that it's supposedly Star Trek because it just barely is.

Don't really care for the main lead though, almost every other character is more interesting because they actually have relatable flaws.

Also why the fuck did they bother including Spock if they decide to make him such a massive dick
>>
DaiMon Bok - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 12:32:38 EST eeplHt03 No.66995 Reply
>>66994
There are plenty of other well produced sci fi shows that aren't disingenuous.
>>
Toral - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 13:37:41 EST Ao2CSlMZ No.66998 Reply
>>66996
Well discovery is light on the themes star trek uses. Unless you mean SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCK but Jaresh is basically pretending it isn't star trek so why not just not watch star trek.

But otherwise just watch the expanse. It's tense and dramatic and fun but with just enough light to remain fun and the characters are all decent but imperfect people doing their absolute best in fucked up circumstances. Also the ship name is a Rush reference.

If you haven't watched the new BSG then do it. Warning; it jumps the shark fucking hard midway through season 3. Good shit until the scene with the song though. It then goes down like it's the ship's counsellor and you just covered your dick in chocolate.
>>
Curzon Dax - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 13:46:33 EST ZjN71efm No.66999 Reply
>>66998
Yeah BSG immediately came to mind, I loved that shit, mostly the space ship operations stuff. Might look into the Expanse some day.
>>
Torg - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 17:19:09 EST ELEHQr12 No.67001 Reply
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>>66984
>Full showrunning duties then passed to Alex Kurtzman, the relentless mediocrity responsible for witless sci-fi flops such as The Amazing Spider-Man 2, Ender’s Game, and the 2017 Mummy reboot.

I love the shit out of this sentence.
>>
Roger Lemli - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 21:57:50 EST HeFO2p/X No.67007 Reply
>>66996
>>Recent ones
>>with the same themes Star Trek uses?
Kind of mutually exclusive in our modern grimdark dystopia. I can't think of a big even slightly utopia driven SF show that has come out this MILLENIUM that didn't eventually have trek in its name.
Stargate isn't really about a utopia, but it's not relentlessly depressing either.
Babylon 5 has a lot of high ideals, although it's mostly about building a utopia through a slog of shit, not enjoying it after the fact.

Or like just watch Orville, man.
>>
Burt Ryan - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 23:25:21 EST ZR416Pa+ No.67009 Reply
>>66908
Okay- Okay first of all- I'm fuggen sorry- but- but I gotta no place else to go to VENT. OKAY!? So please- understand that I'm writing this not out of seriousness- there's gonna be a bit of sarcasm here- My serious totally not shill review incoming.

>Michael Burnham.

She's the main character in her own show. That's essentially new in Star Trek. There is nothing wrong with that either. But she is quite literally, the worst part of a show she's the main character of. It's like having someone standing very near into your face when you're trying to talk to the people that aren't in your face.

In terms of her progression here- I'm again not sure what it is we're trying to build towards here- I don't understand if there's a an arc for her this season. It's vaguely "Family am good." The reasons that eventually come out as to why she left and every so deeply wounded Spock was the most pedestrian thing ever. It was literally, and properly, childish, given how old the characters were in the context of the event, and as Spock himself latter says, something a stupid kid would think. Okay? How is that compelling exactly?! We all understand that! That's not some door opening concept of life or meaning or truth or something. That's a vague childish misunderstanding that occurs when you're a kid! So what is the drama! That people have been children and don't have all of the context when they are young? Well isn't that just not fucking interesting! WOOOHOOOO

What is the function of Michael Burnham? Okay. Her purpose is to essentially be a vessel for the audience. But when we have a character that refuses to conceptualize anything outside of her own worldview or anything that she doesn't expressly talk about, how the hell are we supposed to sympathize with her? I wouldn't go so far to say blah blah Mary Sue, she isn't by a mile. But she conceptualizes the character with no wonder, it's like if we followed Anakin Skywalker throughout three movies in anothersfuckingserieswedon'ttalkabou- And I totally just now thought of that comparison as well.


>Section 31

I'll be blunt here. The purpose of Section 31 in DS9 is to basically have stories that push the moral boundaries of the Federation. That's the purpose of Section 31 in those stories. It's the dark reflection concept. And with the added context of the Dominion War, ways to tell interesting Moral tales about boundaries in conflict etc etc.

Here what is the function? Apparently Generic Bad Guy Organization Sub-Type 3-A; Militant Spy Organization Category 8. Yes, there is vague lip service payed to the idea of keeping to oaths and what not. The organization has basically limitless resources and is so absolutely paramount to everything that they quite literally have their own parallel Starfleet, with a whole bevvy of ships and everything! TRULY CLANDESTINE!



>Season 2 in general

Fast: Betterish than the last Season- still shite.

Longer: The problem with the last Season was that they very clearly wanted to have some kind of long ass arc thing but clearly didn't know what the fuck they were doing from the beginning. I was obviously not in those writing rooms but from what's seen in the last episodes I get the feeling they had no idea what the fuck they were doing. This time I get the sense that maybe they did. But probably not. I think it's clear that they didn't have the balls for the Red Angel to literally be Michael Burnham.. but then again, like I said above, Family blah blah muh themes. The more episodic stuff was better to me.

Pike is probably the closest facsimile to a person you can imagine living the proper Prime Timeline, ya know- with real Star Trek.

I didn't understand the purpose of bringing the Doctor back? Was it just contractual? I imagine so? But he was gone for so long. I mean it was a neatish bit of Science Fiction? I like the visual of a kind dimensional thing. That's a very neat sort of cosmological thing that's curious to see visually with CGI as can be done now. But that's like me saying that an Italian Sportscar is better than a shitty used call from 1993- It's just about Money at some point.


>The Side Characters

They are probably the best part. And again as said above Burnham existing gets in the way of liking them more. (Except when I find it hilarious that they are used like cheap Red Shirts like the cybernetic bridge member who just needs to be given "vague backstory to describe the make-up we gave this random bridge member" so that she can fulfill a plot function and then die and have her robot parts just like recycled back into circulation apparently haha)

Tilly is annoying the way a Rick and Morty fan is annoying.

Saru is better? I guess? His transformation allows the character to be less one dimensional in terms of reactions now, which I'm sure the Actor likes as well.

Emperor Georgou- she'd getting her own spin-off apparently. Which is telling. For the most part she's all purpose plot-solver. Which is shit writing.


>The Defense of This Show

There seems to be this misunderstanding about why TNG was shitty from like Season 1 until the middle or end of Season 3. There's a great documentary called Chaos on the Bridge which covers the whole thing- basically the writing staff was totally unstable and Gene Rodenberry was struggling for control with the Studios it's a whole thing- great watch I suggest it.

Here's my point: Don't fucking write for the writers. Don't make excuses for bad and shitty science-fiction. I'm not trying to come off as snobbish, and yes, I say that after writing all the cringey shit I've said already, and the fact that I've written this far is, I'm sure, sad to most of you- POINT IS, again! You can have all this shit I've talked about WITH BETTER WRITING. And we're just not getting that here. So don't make shitty apologist deferring excuses about the past experiences. This show isn't even on fucking TV ffs. There's a lot of retarded platitudes in this series which is quite irritating and if they wished to go beyond the just X am bad formula they might be able to make something work. But that would involve this series actually trying to be Star Trek. And not Dystopian Unhappy Adventure Times The Series. Lot more to say- but I gotta do more dabs and calm mah bresticles.
>>
James Randi - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:58:21 EST aJUgXMgP No.67071 Reply
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Imo every ST ever made is made in the lense of that decade. The tastes, of that decade, the technology, the sound, set designs is all filtered through thatdecade's lens.
So this is how 2019 makes star trek.
In 2019 people like GOT style plots, flashier visuals, more action, more drama.
I am not defending these thing in the show.
Just more pointing out why DISCO and every incarnation is pretty wildly different.

Why would they be upset having women on the bridge in TOS?
Because it was made in the 1960

Why was every onese sense of dress in the toilet in TNG?
Because it was made in the late 80s.

etc etc etc for each trek.


All that being said, I can appreciate the show runners listening to it's audiance a bi t and toning down some of the more JJ Ambrams style visuals from season one.
>>
Vic Fontaine - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 07:47:32 EST WKyS8K46 No.67072 Reply
>>67071
>Why was every onese sense of dress in the toilet in TNG?

What is your goddamn problem with snug onesies
>>
Ensign Samantha Wildman - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:08:08 EST 4xG8xdJJ No.67074 Reply
>>67071
>In 2019 people like GOT style plots, flashier visuals, more action, more drama.
>I am not defending these thing in the show.
>Just more pointing out why DISCO and every incarnation is pretty wildly different.


Nope, that is not valid for Trek, but not uniquely so.
Every media that started out with a vision and made it into an iconic pop-culture icon should be regarding differently.
And JJTrek / STD butchered that vision.

Beside it's not the modern tropes I mainly have an issue with. It's how the universe is depicted and how characters act as well the certain kind of iconic flair star trek must depict.
Kurtzman failed on all of these points and you get enough detail in prior posts.

OK lets see if I can come up with examples from other franchises with an equivalent....

  • Gandalf throwing a temper tantrum
  • James Bond wearing sneakers and a hoodie
  • Batman killing somebody out of malice
>>
Kozak - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:38:17 EST c0sJvd+s No.67075 Reply
>>67071
Every series does reflect the time period it was created in, but imo it is interesting to see the whole thing kinda take a corner at ENT and go even further with STD in terms of the way it symbolizes and almost glorifies irl governments and their policies. Instead of showing how much better we could be like the older iterations did, these two shows (STD most definitely does, ENT does also but to a much less extreme extent imo) show how great we already are by basically making the show an allegory to give a moral of the story that is self serving to the country that the show was produced in.

When Burnham commenced her mutiny because she wanted to strike first, I thought it was amazing that the show wanted you to sympathize with her. I sympathized with Georgiou. The choice that Georgiou made was probably the same choice that Picard, Janeway or even Kirk would have made. It's probably the choice that any good and well trained Starfleet captain would have made. You don't first strike someone and start a war with them because that's their tradition, that's a flimsy excuse for warlike behavior. That's like saying we should go suicide bomb Iran because they apparently fund a lot of terror in the Middle East. It doesn't sound right. The events in the beginning of STD and even really through the rest of the show are often a bit jingoistic if you kinda look beneath the sci fi veneer. And it's depressing. STD is not a good show, but ENT was in my opinion, and maybe because the jingoism was more subdued in ENT. I think ENT actually had a Star Trek game plan (though the final episode might say otherwise) whereas STD seems like generic war movie (very patriotic, dumbed down and doesn't ask any truly difficult questions) but in space. I haven't watched season 2 yet, but I can't think of one interesting philosophical question that was posed in season 1 of STD. I can't think of one time that diplomacy was used to success, showing that people can talk out their problems and we don't have to have lots of explosions and super awesome sword battles in space! The technobabble is there, the cool visuals are there, the setting is basically there, the ships are there, but it's missing something very fundamental and that's a feeling that humanity has moved on to a place that can give us hope and serve as an example.
>>
Kevin Mulkahey - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:26:05 EST HeFO2p/X No.67077 Reply
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>>67075
>> take a corner at ENT and go even further with STD in terms of the way it symbolizes and almost glorifies irl governments and their policies
I'd like to believe this, and always love an opportunity to cast the shows before ENT as better than after, but I think we also need to look at some of the older series with less rosy lenses. I think a lot of the even-handedness of the TNG era comes with the moral ambiguity that was baked into the 'end of history' '90s view of the world. Think back to TOS, there are clearly episodes that are making strong arguments for the position of the state (although a counter argument is at least offered, unlike ENT/STD.)
'A Private Little War' yes, kind of shows both sides of the Vietnam debate, and shows that there are ultimately no winners in war, but can you really say it's suggesting that the policy of containment is flawed or that there's any other possible course of action? Or how about 'Journey to Eden?' Yes, we see Chekov and Spock sort of sympathize with the barefooted watchamacallems, but at the end of the day the lesson is 'hippies not bad but dangerously misguided, technomeritocracy harsh truth all must accept.'

In fact, people are already starting to see the moral ambiguity era as it's own kind of 'head space' that people were stuck in, so what seemed to be realistic, policy-free plots about universal truth might eventually be seen as just a timely expression of the confused ideas and policies of that era after more of real history has played itself out, and we just have a hard time seeing it cause most of us are 'native' to that era.

I mean, if we were vulcans from 6000 years ago, we would eat of the flesh of animals, and enjoy it. Times, like, change the viewer and the viewed, man.
>>
Species 8472 - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 18:18:37 EST eeplHt03 No.67079 Reply
>>67077
Yeah I agree totally, I think I should have been a little more clear. I take issue with the militarism that is in the shows after 9/11. I know occasionally, captains would advocate for some crazy shit like Janeway deciding she should commit genocide for whatever reason the episode demanded, etc, but none of the shows before ENT consistently espoused militaristic ideas. I can appreciate the hippy consensus episode of TOS because it kinda provides a look into how some more established or older people might have viewed them. It's a bit odd that Gene would take that "misguided" stance considering he probably agrees a lot with most hippies but that's beside the point.
I see what you're saying about the end of history era, and how everything was up in the air. There were no real threats to the US while TNG was running. America had the privilege, like the Federation, to further research and knowledge for no immediate payoff. If we were as reasonable as the people in Star Trek then that's what we would have done, but we still weren't so the show was showing us something great that we could do with our current perspective on the world and philosophies. My main point is that STD spends way too much time having people fight or talk about mundane shit, espousing ideas that parallel our current reality so essentially not doing anything to make people think besides reinforcing what they already know.
>>
Kevin Mulkahey - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 18:57:40 EST HeFO2p/X No.67080 Reply
>>67079
>>It's a bit odd that Gene would take that "misguided" stance considering he probably agrees a lot with most hippies
To be fair, that was S3, and by that point Gene was pretty much persona non grata.
>>STD spends way too much time having people fight or talk about mundane shit, espousing ideas that parallel our current reality so essentially not doing anything to make people think besides reinforcing what they already know.
Exactly. The status quo is never challenged, rule by force is never challenged, hell, the logline of the plot of the week isn't challenged until 5 minutes before the episode is over. It doesn't help that the characters are petulant idiots without principles or personalities but gimmicks. Can you imagine these sock puppets having a 'Measure of a Man' style courtroom debate?
>>BURNHAM: I think we should kill all the Klingons because, I mean, just look at them
>>SARU: As a person from a planet where the people are all prey, I believe bowing to the most powerful predator is always the smartest thing, because, evolved from prey as I am, I can smell death and these guys reek of it. Did I mention my people are prey?
>>STAMMETZ: These spores let me see beyond the principles of space and time, and they tell me that genocide is always the only option!
>>TILLY: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
>>
Species 8472 - Fri, 12 Apr 2019 19:11:15 EST eeplHt03 No.67083 Reply
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>>67080
Your scenario is funny because it's highly accurate. Jesus those characters are all so vacuous.
>>
Kathryn Janeway - Fri, 19 Apr 2019 21:51:16 EST l60MLAfn No.67188 Reply
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How was season 2 compared to season 1? I didn't really like season 1 (the episode with Mudd doing the time warp in the space whale was the only really memorably good episode for me), but if season 2 has bearded up, I will give it a go.
>>
Gantt - Sat, 20 Apr 2019 00:48:41 EST 5SVJcPG+ No.67189 Reply
>>67188
Just as mediocre and convoluted IMO though I didn't like the Mudd episode either so take that for what you will.
>>
Mot - Sat, 20 Apr 2019 06:43:23 EST ZjN71efm No.67195 Reply
>>67188
More decent Trek like episodes but the overarching plot is pretty dumb and predictable.
>>
Guinan - Sat, 20 Apr 2019 10:12:14 EST b048m/L8 No.67202 Reply
>>66919
>STD just feels like it's trying to imitate things that have already done well. It's like a greatest hits album, all remastered but nothing I haven't already gotten somewhere.

Effectively it's the Star Trek equivalent of KidzBop
>>
Subcommander Almak - Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:21:18 EST HeFO2p/X No.67233 Reply
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>>67202
>>Effectively it's the Star Trek equivalent of KidzBop
>>
Tom Paris - Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:14:27 EST joWTVUJI No.67331 Reply
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I haven't watched any of the new trek, as I hardly watch tv at all. But I'm not surprised that it's terrible, the california culture is pretty myopic right now.
>>
Latha Mabrin - Wed, 01 May 2019 06:29:24 EST f0KuG9K1 No.67333 Reply
there are many valid criticisms in this thread.

as a fan that has watched everything save for the animated series and various webisodes, i have some sense of propriety about trek.
it took me a long time to watch disco, because the first few episodes really turned me off.

having just binged the whole thing, i gotta say i feel like disco is more my trek than any other trek.
i feel like my people are more represented than ever.

i feel it is very unfortunate that folks around here are more interested in what disco could have been or what they want star trek to be than in the value that this non-trek brings to the table.

even if you hate disco, you have to appreciate the fact that it spurred CBS et al to invest big money in the franchise.

without disco, there would be no destiny.

i believe destiny (if that's what patrick stewart's show will end up being titled) is the show you guys are actually waiting for.


live long and prosper.
>>
Captain Kurn - Wed, 01 May 2019 08:41:57 EST MUJ4M6tq No.67336 Reply
>>67333
> i gotta say i feel like disco is more my trek than any other trek.
>i feel like my people are more represented than ever.

What does that even mean. Because they show more aliens on the crew? Are you an alien? You sure construct your post in an alien way.
>>
Stonn - Wed, 01 May 2019 09:42:09 EST MXVoRoHE No.67337 Reply
>>67333
>i feel like disco is more my trek than any other trek.

Kindly take it back with you to whereever you came from, shithead.
>>
Gor - Wed, 01 May 2019 17:10:25 EST /8C5+DYy No.67347 Reply
>>67333
>i believe destiny (if that's what patrick stewart's show will end up being titled) is the show you guys are actually waiting for.
Well that's silly of you isn't it?

And the "not trek" thing is done better by a lot of not Treks.
>>
Composer Delvok - Wed, 01 May 2019 17:42:51 EST HeFO2p/X No.67349 Reply
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>>67333
>>i feel like my people are more represented than ever.
Mmmh love the smell of fresh bait in the morning.
>>
Latha Mabrin - Wed, 01 May 2019 18:59:46 EST f0KuG9K1 No.67351 Reply
>>67335
sure, np

>>67336
queer, dorky, overweight, cowardly

>>67337
would if i could

>>67347
you're not wrong, but it has done well enough to fund a bunch more ;)

>>67349
i'm amused by the fact that it's so hard for you to engage with a bleeding heart weirdo that you'd dismiss them as a troll.
given the toxic culture associated with imageboards, i can't really blame you.


https://youtu.be/UkLQ9ksuZKo - Devo Through Being Cool
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Thu, 02 May 2019 02:11:27 EST D44ybqlL No.67357 Reply
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>>67333
>i gotta say i feel like disco is more my trek than any other trek. i feel like my people are more represented than ever.
>queer, dorky, overweight, cowardly
Is Discovery supposed to be the spiritual successor to Arthur? I observe that you said it's more your series than anything else, as opposed to it's better than all the others, but now it's time for me to bitch about shit.

>i feel it is very unfortunate that folks around here are more interested in what disco could have been or what they want star trek to be than in the value that this non-trek brings to the table.
Well when you have 6 series' worth of history and lore established and good coverage of the evolution of interplanetary relationships, along with not having a Trek series for the current generation, it's pretty fucking frustrating for it to come out the way it does. It seriously comes off as something that's not focused on being what Trek has always been, at least not as much. It fundamentally feels like a deviation. In many ways it was the exact opposite of what a lot of us were hoping for. So yeah it sucks and I feel unfortunate about that.

>you have to appreciate the fact that it spurred CBS et al to invest big money in the franchise.
You don't have to. You also can though, but that doesn't change the show. I'd say the majority of conversation on this board occurs from the perspective of Trek's world and less focused on the bureaucracy and meta of it all. I definitely like that aspect of discussion more on this board anyway, and in that sense, it's ripe with things to complain about as a viewer.

>i believe destiny is the show you guys are actually waiting for.
Hopefully. But then why bother blasting us in the face with this loud-ass action show? Why are we still doing fucking prequels after ENT plus 3 god damn TOS era movies? It also worries me that the quality of the franchise as a whole is going to get driven into the ground. Like, suddenly we have several movies, and multiple new series airing simultaneously. Instead of just making a really solid Trek series, it's going to turn into another DC Universe explosion that probably won't be that memorable long term. Of course that's pure speculation, but the feeling is there.
>>
Species 8472 - Fri, 03 May 2019 15:11:13 EST TcSMTlpl No.67383 Reply
>>67333
>even if you hate disco, you have to appreciate the fact that it spurred CBS et al to invest big money in the franchise.
Making an entirely new franchise and slapping on the name of an existing property is not the same as investing in the original idea. I'd rather Trek had stayed dead.
>>
Lt. Joseph Carey - Fri, 03 May 2019 22:16:20 EST eeplHt03 No.67392 Reply
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>>67333
If getting a new generation interested in Star Trek means that it's gonna be a serialized knock off of current trends that may not even last past the next few years, then I'd have rather the franchise not have been revived at all.

The episodic formula of old Trek may be somewhat outdated, but the content is timeless and the same can not be said about the content of Discovery in any way shape or form. It is all very topical and shallow. And besides the surface level sci fi themes that are occasionally explored when the show isn't just being a war, there is nothing that will be of value in the show 5 or 10 years from now. We will probably look back on this show and see it as outdated, even for the time. As we're dealing with the blowback from the war seeking ways of the early 21st century, we'll see the show as a horrible representation and reinforcement of ideas that should have been dead at the time. An irresponsible form of media shilling for dangerous ideas that we should be past.

In 02x01 I noticed a really jingoistic and xenophobic scene that really grossed me out. When they rescued those people off that rock and they didn't know the war was over, when they were informed that they're no longer at war with the Klingons, the person was super surpised and said something like "we signed a treaty with the Klingons!? The ones who drink blood wine?!!" It may be a bit nitpicky to point this out, but nobody called that person out for essentially being racist, because this show is racist, jingoistic, war-hawkish and very pro status quo when it comes to America and their geo politics. That blatant regressive line really shows the hypocrisy of a show that loves to tout its diversity and progressive ways.
>>
Curzon Dax - Sat, 04 May 2019 02:35:32 EST 7vRPXZKu No.67394 Reply
>>67392
>topical and shallow

Plenty of Star Trek is this way, but at least they were all contained within an episode instead of shitting on entire seasons.
>>
Michael Jonas - Sat, 04 May 2019 04:43:22 EST 60zgf9Xq No.67397 Reply
>>67392
I told you guys it started with ENT

Since the beginning of ENT star trek has pretty much just been a George dubya bush propaganda machine
>>
Curzon Dax - Sat, 04 May 2019 06:29:00 EST 7vRPXZKu No.67401 Reply
>>67397
ENT is fine. What started with ENT was the fucking Viacom chaos and that bastard Les Moonves that got us into this situation.

It's not ENT's fault.
>>
Vice Admiral Leyton - Sat, 04 May 2019 12:14:45 EST qDcgc+HB No.67408 Reply
>>67392
>If getting a new generation interested in Star Trek means that it's gonna be a serialized knock off of current trends that may not even last past the next few years, then I'd have rather the franchise not have been revived at all.
The current generation is interested in Trek only because it was constantly referenced in Big Bang Theory and the style is now to adopt the shallowest elements of 'geekdom' without actually engaging with the underlying ideas. The new films and STD are just cashing in on that name recognition.
>>67397
I'm not as anti-ENT as I once was but it did have its flaws in that regard. All of S3 for example.
>>
Robin Lefler - Sun, 05 May 2019 03:47:50 EST 7e/aHSEV No.67414 Reply
>>67408
I'm of the current generation and I got into Star Trek because of Mike Stoklasa talking about it.
>>
Captain Kurn - Sun, 05 May 2019 10:49:29 EST gOUFeB9G No.67419 Reply
>>67414
I got into trek because my parents always made fun of it when it came on.
>>
Christine Chapel - Sun, 05 May 2019 13:42:01 EST XF0x4Tp5 No.67422 Reply
>>67414
My bad for making a sweeping generalisation. The bulk of the current generation would be more accurate.
>>
Lt. Chu'lak - Sat, 11 May 2019 14:09:51 EST YhqlMbNh No.67476 Reply
I finally binged season 2. Substantially better than season 1, but still has some of the same problems. I think this show is still better than voy/ent/nutrek, but worse than tng/ds9/tos. The trajectory is good though.

Here's my very important commentary.

The 3 things that made it better:
> The actor who plays Burnham is still struggling to carry the weight the show puts on her, but she handled it much better than season 1 when she dragged the whole show down.
> They're also starting to give everyone more character moments, which was my main complaint from season 1. I'm starting to empathize more with characters. But they still don't give enough room for characters... this show won't sit still.
> Tig Notaro

The trash:
> Tilly actually got worse. I'm probably in the minority here, but I found her charming in season 1. Maybe test audiences told them the same thing, and they decided to lean wayyyyyyyyyy into it. They've amped it up to the point I dreaded her in every scene.
> The spinning/swinging camera is distracting. It works in space, but doing it in every ready-room scene is stupid.
> Everything is always so high stakes, it's hilarious. You can't order a drink in this show without it killing someone's entire family or blowing up a star.

Stuff:
> I thought the Pike/Spock characterizations worked well. I liked this Spock better than nuTrek. It's a hard role to play, cold but empathetic for the audience, but he pulled it off.
> They took Georgiou in an interesting direction and I liked it.
> I'm positive season 3 will feature an evil Kelpien Empire.
> I'm on board with the central premise of having a Trek that isn't about a single captain. I think it's a solid idea if they can get the rest of it together.
>>
Michael Sullivan - Mon, 13 May 2019 09:29:48 EST mw1AnnTr No.67497 Reply
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>>67476
Best Spock is Brandon Stacy from New Voyages, the damn fanfics have better casting than a hollywood production COME ON
>>
Colonel Lovok - Mon, 13 May 2019 20:19:37 EST RTLNjlU5 No.67498 Reply
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>>67476
ENT is better than Disco. Specifically because you can skip the shit seasons.
Voyager has the problem where the good episodes are evenly dispersed among fucking terrible ones at random.

Discovery has a steady tick tock cycle of an inoffensive episode which is sometimes good followed immediately by offensive trash, plus since it's all building up to an overarching story the trash is inextricable from the good and brings everything down extensively.

Boooo
>>
Captain Rixx - Tue, 14 May 2019 04:21:19 EST mSdo0TI4 No.67504 Reply
>>67498
Sounds like STD just did more of what made ENT shit. The xindi arc had some good eps but it was stuck in a season long arc and inseparable.
>>
Fer'at - Tue, 14 May 2019 18:18:24 EST HeFO2p/X No.67514 Reply
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>>67504
Yeah but like someone said a few posts ago you can just skip season 3 and have a pretty awesome ENT watching experience. There's no sensible skipping with STD, they even worm tidbits of their faux-thrones bullshit into the 'good' episodes. Trust me, if you try to watch it, you're gonna have a bad time. If you try to skip through and just watch the (what, maybe 5?) 'good' episodes, you're gonna have a bad time. Basically, STDs: you're gonna have a bad time.
>>
Cmdr. Peter Harkins - Wed, 15 May 2019 04:21:16 EST 60zgf9Xq No.67524 Reply
>>67514
>someone said a few posts ago you can just skip season 3 and have a pretty awesome ENT watching experience

well they were wrong, it wasn't the xindi arc that made almost every crew member of that ship completely unlikable

seriously phlox is basically the worst Trek doctor when compared to all who came before him but somehow the only decent crewmember of that damn ship

Other than that Shran was probably the only actually good character on the show
>>
Hikaru Sulu - Wed, 15 May 2019 04:30:01 EST MUJ4M6tq No.67526 Reply
>>67524
>probably the only actually good character on the show

Don't forget about the dog
>>
Captain Goroth - Wed, 15 May 2019 10:03:35 EST 0yIRkj0Q No.67527 Reply
>>67526
The slug from ep 2 or 3 stole the award for best supporting pet role
>>
Jimmy - Thu, 16 May 2019 11:37:35 EST fYnLtQ3w No.67540 Reply
>>67524
>seriously phlox is basically the worst Trek doctor when compared to all who came before him but somehow the only decent crewmember of that damn ship
The actor carried the role almost entirely.
>>
Kono - Thu, 23 May 2019 12:48:10 EST VTqhVSCv No.67618 Reply
>>67524

I feel like ENT is sometimes the most TOS style Star Trek, especially the episodes that have nothing to do with plot arcs. The supporting cast isn't super interesting, but I think Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov weren't super well developed characters either they just had a more memorably charisma. Travis delivers his lines shitty and his backstory doesn't matter. But take away Chekov's ridiculous Soviet accent and is he really any different? More energetic sure, but compared to Takei or Doohan or Nichols I feel like he's not much better at acting than Montgomery. It's just that acting on TV is better in general as TV gets more modern, so Montgomery stands out more. The conversational tone between Archer, Trip, and T'pol really does remind me of some of the moments between Kirk, Bones, and Spock, especially the parts where they casually and undeservedly throw out racial slurs for Vulcans and denigrate their weirdo space cult. T'pol's goddamn camel toe tracksuit was also the most gratuitously sexual outfit since the TOS miniskirts, it hugs her ass so form fittingly it makes Seven of Nine's jumpsuit look like a niqab.

I might expand on this later but I'm pretty high rn. I still go back and forth on if I think ENT or VOY is the weakest Star Trek, but they are authentic attempts at Star Trek. Whenever I watch them the episodes of either has familiar narrative beats to TOS Star Trek, which I couldn't say about STD, and that's really the underlying sin. The way the story is told is the underlying thing that makes Star Trek enjoyable, more than if the actors and characters are good or shit, more so than if the special effects are impoverished or expensive
>>
Naomi Wildman - Thu, 23 May 2019 12:59:18 EST 60zgf9Xq No.67619 Reply
>>67618
man I pretty much agree with everything you said but if we agree the support cast on both are basically null then it's those main three we are forced to focus in on and when we do we see that Archer is definitely worse than Kirk, Trip isn't even on the radar compared to Bones, and T'pol is just tits where as Spock is em effing Spock. So yeah, ENT still sucks. Not nearly as bad as disco but that doesn't make it better.
>>
Kono - Thu, 23 May 2019 13:40:47 EST VTqhVSCv No.67621 Reply
>>67619

Absolutely, The original triad had a real chemistry and stage presence that Archer and his weirdos never replicated, and that makes ENT a weaker show in comparison (in addition to other problems like the long arcs that had either no meaning or meanings of questionable value)

It sucks, but sometimes it gets little things right in a way that provokes me and feels familiar. ENT is like a Star Trek wax sculpture, kind of off-putting but made in a recognizable likeness of the original that can be entertaining; STD is like a creep at the bus station wearing a Star Trek halloween mask and breathing heavy while gradually standing closer to you
>>
T'Pau - Thu, 23 May 2019 16:51:58 EST AmvXE/8s No.67622 Reply
>>67618
>T'pol's goddamn camel toe tracksuit was also the most gratuitously sexual outfit since the TOS miniskirts
In the context of the 60s the TOS miniskirts weren't particularly out of place or overly sexual. Just generic fashionable clothing. Otherwise I'd generally agree with what you're saying though early TNG tries to strike a more TOS tone than it did later on.
> The conversational tone between Archer, Trip, and T'pol really does remind me of some of the moments between Kirk, Bones, and Spock, especially the parts where they casually and undeservedly throw out racial slurs for Vulcans and denigrate their weirdo space cult.
You're spot on here. One thing about ENT that makes it feel TOS-like is that the characters feel mostly human without being too perfect (TNG) or too flawed/dramaed up (DS9) or bland (VOY). Like TOS their imperfection is mostly minor personal vices or fundamental beliefs not damning flaws (assuming you ignore some of the outright terrible episodes like A Night in Sickbay anyway).
>I still go back and forth on if I think ENT or VOY is the weakest Star Trek,
VOY is weaker. If you ignore S3 ENT has about the same average hit rate as TNG which has a lot of filler and two shittier seasons at the start and two more at the end. If you rewatch ENT with an open mind skip the intro or find a way to replace the song with the ending theme as was originally intended and keep in mind that the future guy was intended to be Archer trying to undo his own creation of the federation all along, though honestly those arc/meta plot episodes are weak anyway you'll be surprised I know I was.
>>
Dr. Mora Pol - Thu, 23 May 2019 22:46:10 EST 60zgf9Xq No.67627 Reply
>>67622
>ENT is okay if you ignore all the bad parts

you apologists are ridiculous
>>
Captain Edward Jellico - Thu, 23 May 2019 23:06:24 EST pPn+v0ef No.67628 Reply
>>67627
>>ENT is okay if you ignore all the bad parts
It's literally the same as Voyager. Except Voyager is homogenously distributed.

Enterprise has bad seasons. You can skip at a really macro level of analysis and get good results.
If you want to do the same with Voyager you're going to be doing a lot of reading because the good episodes are absolutely evenly distributed among the bad. No season is better than the others, though some are worse.

Every first season of a post TOS era show is among the worst. If you made a list they'd all be at the bottom along with TOS Season 3. The range of improvement season-to-season for any series in Star Trek is the lowest for Voyager.

If you want to sift through that shit be my guest. Enterprise is more time-efficient, therefore Enterprise is better.

But this is all pretty academic. Like how I have an above average size penis. While statistics bear that to be true, if we stop being assholes for a second and look at the big picture: I have a completely average penis.
>>
Captain Edward Jellico - Thu, 23 May 2019 23:11:08 EST pPn+v0ef No.67629 Reply
>>67628
The most notable thing about Voyager is that it's last season isn't a hideous drop in quality from the rest, which is true for literally every goddamn Star Trek but Discovery, and I wouldn't bet on that being any different.

But then again, for a series that never actually peaks, having a relatively strong last season isn't much of an accomplishment.

Meanwhile if you just watch Season 2 and 3 of Enterprise, you're going to have a pretty good time. There isn't one season of Voyager that won't persistently throw garbage at you.
>>
Bernardo Calvera - Fri, 24 May 2019 00:28:51 EST bOlOhkyn No.67630 Reply
>>67629
>There isn't one season of Voyager that won't persistently throw garbage at you.
yeah there's seven of them, not one
>>
Dr. Mora Pol - Fri, 24 May 2019 04:59:15 EST 60zgf9Xq No.67631 Reply
>>67629
>if you just watch Season 2 and 3 of Enterprise, you're going to have a pretty good time

I did not have a good time with those
>>
Guinan - Fri, 24 May 2019 19:57:32 EST 188qcWQ0 No.67645 Reply
>>67631
Honestly I feel like the place to start with Enterprise is s4e2
>>
Captain Kargan - Sun, 26 May 2019 19:08:16 EST qquiJrY6 No.67659 Reply
>>67627
The exact same applies to TNG where a good third of all episodes are either outright crap or entirely forgettable. Even the most consistent Trek, DS9, requires you to ignore the retarded comic-book tier writing from near the end and some of the jankier episodes throughout.
>>67628
>It's literally the same as Voyager. Except Voyager is homogenously distributed.
>If you want to do the same with Voyager you're going to be doing a lot of reading because the good episodes are absolutely evenly distributed among the bad. No season is better than the others, though some are worse.
Agreed. Though if you forced me to pick between watching Voyager's worst episodes and TNG's worse episodes I'd probably pick Voyager's: they're great for drunkwatching rather than just being boring or excessively predictable. On an objective level they're still shittier.
>Every first season of a post TOS era show is among the worst. If you made a list they'd all be at the bottom along with TOS Season 3. The range of improvement season-to-season for any series in Star Trek is the lowest for Voyager.
Yes, with the possible exception of DS9 where the final Season and a half or so has a straight mix of good/great episodes and self-indulgent ones ruined by the writers pushing their own personal bullshit into things. And ORV's S1 was better than S2 but that depends if you count it as Trek or not.
>But this is all pretty academic. Like how I have an above average size penis. While statistics bear that to be true, if we stop being assholes for a second and look at the big picture: I have a completely average penis.
Where's the proof? Get that camera out.
>>67629
>The most notable thing about Voyager is that it's last season isn't a hideous drop in quality from the rest, which is true for literally every goddamn Star Trek but Discovery, and I wouldn't bet on that being any different.
What about S4 of ENT? Otherwise agreed.
>Meanwhile if you just watch Season 2 and 3 of Enterprise, you're going to have a pretty good time.
S2 yes, S3 is a candidate for topbottom? 5 worst trek seasons outside of STD. Actually a meta ranking of every season of Trek combined allowing fags to pick if they include STD's and/or ORV's seasons would be a pretty good thread. Someone should make that.
>>
Krax - Sun, 26 May 2019 19:26:25 EST HeFO2p/X No.67662 Reply
I don't think there's really a consensus that there's a last season drop off. There's a trekkie group-think about the first season being bad, but as we've discussed here many times it doesn't really hold up.
Anyway, TOS' last season features the worst episodes of the series, but its hit/miss ratio isn't really that much worse than the other two, and has true gems.
TNG's last season is fine, c'mon. It has some really memorable episodes and at most a handful of stinkers, which is pretty much TNG's standard rate.
DS9's last season is shit, but that's worthless whiny bitch/Terry Farrell's fault. Also, if you just focus on the last 3rd, it's the hardest hitting part of the whole show.
VOY's last season isn't any worse or better than the whole second half. Maybe it goes off the rails a little more, but it also has more momentum than 5-6.
ENT's last season is without a doubt its best. You don't even really need the rest of the show, honestly, and you especially don't need season 3.
>>
Major Rakal - Sun, 26 May 2019 20:42:10 EST qquiJrY6 No.67663 Reply
>>67662
>TNG's last season is fine, c'mon. It has some really memorable episodes and at most a handful of stinkers, which is pretty much TNG's standard rate.
Compared to S5 both S6 and S7 are major steps down. It's really noticeable if you watch them all within a week or two. You get the occasional good episode like Lower Decks but otherwise it's all inferior versions of things past seasons already did, trotting out random family members who were never previously mentioned or outright bad episodes like Sub Rosa or Force of Nature.

>DS9's last season is shit, but that's worthless whiny bitch/Terry Farrell's fault. Also, if you just focus on the last 3rd, it's the hardest hitting part of the whole show.
Ignoring worthless whiny bitch you've got:
  • The fucking up of Dukat's character
  • The retarded prophet/pah-wraith comic book bullshit taking over the main plotline
  • The weird Vic Fontaine obsession
  • Martok fanwank fucking up Gowron's character specifically and Klingons in general

Though to be fair a lot of that was just continuing what S6 started and S6 is also responsible for turning the Ferengi from an interesting society in their own right into a generic Human/Western ideals situation for a happy ending. That's why I said last Season and a halfish rather than just last season.
>>
Orator Plegg - Mon, 27 May 2019 11:13:20 EST CzoP/iRU No.67667 Reply
>>67663
I'm the first guy dissing the last seasons but the last season has shit like Masks, which most poeple hate but is actually fuckin' incredible. It's just the independent theater project from Brent Spiner but somehow actually on television.
>>
Amanda Grayson - Mon, 27 May 2019 13:21:48 EST pNrUkxOP No.67669 Reply
>>67667
Masks is a fine concept for an episode but poorly executed, which is pretty much the summary of S7 in general.
>>
Valkris - Tue, 28 May 2019 15:38:35 EST 60zgf9Xq No.67679 Reply
>>67663
your precious dukat was always a trans underneath and you are to for liking him
>>
Pah-wraith - Wed, 29 May 2019 22:24:05 EST HeFO2p/X No.67688 Reply
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>>67663
Okay, but I think a lot of those problems are because they needed to fill up room and let off dramatic tension in order to develop WWB's character. The Dukat character assassination was executive meddling pure and simple.
As for the 'conclusion' of the prophet/pah-wraith storyline, yeah it's stupid they ended up just being space angels and demons, but this is pretty much what happens every time trek goes 'hunting for god.' What do the writers think they're going to have them find? I give them somewhat of a pass on the season-to-season breakdown because they started digging this grave for themselves in the pilot.
>>67667
>>the last season has shit like Masks, which most poeple hate but is actually fuckin' incredible.
This guy gets it. Last seasons often feature a lot more 'unhinged' episodes, which in a way makes them, both from a production and narrative standpoint, like a amped-up first season. The writers are willing to push the final boundaries because they know it's over/are making their last ditch effort to keep the show on. The actors are all pushing for big vehicle episodes to string to their next project, which almost always involves some contrivance to get them to act completely contrary to their normal character, which leads to zanier, sometimes amazing plots. This is definitely more true for the episodic format shows, though.
>>
Porthos - Fri, 31 May 2019 20:22:40 EST nlyt/bK4 No.67689 Reply
>>67688
>like a amped-up first season
Yeah, benefiting from writers and actors who know the characters and roles and each other well enough to make it work. I assume that's what you're getting at. Their ability could sometimes (often) match their ambition unlike S1 where they regularly fell flat.

The thing about scraping the barrel is that you sometimes find really good shit that you'd previously ignored, it's harder to reach but now you have no choice. I mean they knew they were done so fuck it, lets go all in, try the things and who cares?
>>
Iliana Ghemor - Fri, 07 Jun 2019 18:07:46 EST BIw1HvBc No.67756 Reply
>>67688
Masks is by far the best example of a good bad episode I can think of. Sure, it sucks but you get treated to so very much of Spiner hamming up the walls.

I couldn't find it but I'm pretty sure there's an interview where Patrick Stewart says Masks is his second favorite episode or something. Either way he, in particular loves Spiner episodes.
>>
The Traveler - Sat, 08 Jun 2019 22:13:51 EST 5SVJcPG+ No.67766 Reply
From Roddenberry Transmitter newsletter today

>Star Trek: Discovery Season 3
CBS All Access announced the third season renewal of Star Trek: Discovery and also that Michelle Paradise will join Alex Kurtzman as co-showrunner for season three.

>Star Trek: Picard
Sir Patrick Stewart will star in Star Trek: Picard, reprising his role as the venerable Jean-Luc Picard. The series will follow this iconic character in the next chapter of his life. Alongside Stewart, Star Trek: Picard will also star Alison Pill, Michelle Hurd, Evan Evagora, Isa Briones, Santiago Cabrera and Harry Treadaway.

>Star Trek: Lower Decks
CBS All Access has given a two-season commitment to Star Trek: Lower Decks, an animated comedy from Emmy Award-winner Mike McMahan (Rick and Morty).The series will follow the support crew serving on one of Starfleet’s least-important ships.

>'Section 31'
CBS All Access is officially moving forward on the development of a standalone “Star Trek” series starring Michelle Yeoh. The series would see Yeoh reprise the role of Philippa Georgiou, expanding on the character’s current position as a member of Section 31, a shadowy intelligence agency operating within the Federation.

>Star Trek on Nickelodeon
A new, original CG-animated Star Trek series that follows a group of lawless teens who discover a derelict Starfleet ship and use it to search for adventure, meaning and salvation is in the works from Nickelodeon and CBS Television Studios.
>>
Guinan - Sun, 09 Jun 2019 09:03:23 EST b048m/L8 No.67770 Reply
>>67766
>Star Trek on Nickelodeon
well at least we all got to see the death of star trek
>>
Lt. JG Saavik - Sun, 09 Jun 2019 09:43:00 EST nlyt/bK4 No.67773 Reply
>>67770
The funny thing is I feel like that's the one most likely to actually capture the trek spirit. I mean Picard could but lets not be silly. When I was a kid and from what I can tell for a few years after, Nickelodeon were probably the best at kids shows.

It will however be a kid's show.

That does mean that they might grow up to demand something which isn't just grimderp, empty drama FUCK YEAH KILL THEM ALL. "this is about modern politics" its really about 9/11 but in the most pro imperialist who cares that the dossier didn't have any WMDs invade them all way possible and dramatic lighting though.
>>
Kai Winn - Sun, 09 Jun 2019 12:12:42 EST bOlOhkyn No.67775 Reply
to be fair Nick ran TAS in the 80s, I think it was before TNG was a thing

but yeah those shows are all going to be shit and will only bring joy through laughing at them for being shit
>>
Commander Tebok - Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:02:01 EST 5SVJcPG+ No.67785 Reply
>>67775
Yeah, I thought there would be more hate on Lower Decks than the nick cartoon.

I'm not expecting anything great from any of it though. I'll still probably watch them : (
>>
Thalen - Tue, 11 Jun 2019 01:42:30 EST bOlOhkyn No.67786 Reply
>>67785
Lower Decks got hate ages ago when word first came out about it
>>
Guinan - Tue, 11 Jun 2019 12:26:45 EST vW9ccGkT No.67787 Reply
>>66908
Honestly the Nickelodeon thing sounds like they just resurrected that weird CGI show that would have been a non fanfic version of Star Trek Renegades. Anyone remember? Maybe 5-8 years ago it was supposed to be made bit we only heard about it a year or two after the fact? The ship was an ugly rectangle and the characters were kinda cartoonish and gross
>>
Marla Gilmore - Wed, 12 Jun 2019 07:25:13 EST FZnEMFRU No.67791 Reply
>>67786
Wait are we not talking about the voy ep? Or was the that one with the autist the hypochondriac and the woman called something different?
>>
Michael Eddington - Wed, 12 Jun 2019 09:20:57 EST oDV8iW5L No.67792 Reply
>>67791
He's referring to the recently announced Star Trek: Lower Decks TV show which follows the WACKY FUN FILLED ADVENTURES OF LESSER CREWMEN ABOARD A STARSHIP HYUCK HYUCK
Its gunna suck
>>
Guinan - Sat, 29 Jun 2019 09:28:56 EST b048m/L8 No.67884 Reply
>>67880
Good riddance. The problem is we may not get anyone better or really much different.

For instance check out the new guy running the Picard show.. Michael Chabon. Hes a writer.. like a novelist. Look up the kind of work that this guy had done and tell me if you see anything even remotely futurist, scifi, or utopian. Shit maybe if a random novelist can run a fucking TV show outta nowhere so can a bartender.
>>
Ulani Belor - Sat, 29 Jun 2019 15:55:19 EST WLJtCX4q No.67886 Reply
>>67884
I just stopped watching season 2 with like 2 or 3 episodes to go because the writing just kept getting more and more fucking stupid and nonsensical.

I don't know anything about this new guy but at least a novelist might know how to write something that isn't shit since you can't just dress up a terrible book with expensive special effects.
>>
Private E Hamboyan - Sat, 29 Jun 2019 19:18:29 EST nktOIVZn No.67887 Reply
I just watch the RLM review of Discovery Season 2. I left feeling just sooo bad for old trek fans. You're not going to ever recapture your nostalgia.

I hope you all know none of these 5 shows ( >>67766 ) will ever recapture the love you had for TNG. They have different writers and different expectations. They're all going to be cookie cutter because the studio rather be conservative with an existing property with a built-in audience.

Meanwhile, your tastes have gotten better and you've become smarter and more critical. You've forgotten or forgiven all the dumb shit that happens in TNG. Also, none of these shows will ever be TNG, just like TNG was never TOS.

There's new, better sci-fi. Watch good sci-fi. Forget about Trek. Go watch The Expanse, it's good. But Trek will never be the Trek you remember. As you watch these new trek shows, just get in the same mindset you would be in watching Stargate: Atlantis or something.
>>
Odo - Mon, 01 Jul 2019 00:41:11 EST F5h3D7xH No.67890 Reply
>>67887
>You're not going to ever recapture your nostalgia.

What we're not going to recapture is quality Star Trek. The nostalgia wasn't captured. It's homegrown and not going away.
>>
Emperor Kahless - Mon, 01 Jul 2019 10:25:09 EST mw1AnnTr No.67893 Reply
>>67890
>>67887
>You're not going to ever recapture your nostalgia.

The Orville did just that.
>>
Guinan - Mon, 01 Jul 2019 15:50:24 EST b048m/L8 No.67894 Reply
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>>67893
>>67890
>>67888
>>67887
The Expanse / The Orville is THE NEXT NEXT GENERATION or as close to it as we will ever get. I think the spirit of Trek left the body a while back and now we are dealing with a case of a big, retarded zombie. I'll probably give Picard a try but let's all be honest: it's not going to launch a new era of trek or anything, at best it will act as a good bookend, a closing chapter, an epilogue, or maybe more appropriately, a fucking eulogy of Star Trek, because all these incarnations of nuTrek have been complete trash. Star Trek 2009, Into Darkness, even Beyond.. they were trash, I'm not even sure if I'd rate them better than Insurrection. And ST.. holy fucking lol. A show so bad that they actually caved into fan demands and gave Klingons their hair back after an entire season of digging in their heels. It's a fucking mess story wise. It's so shitty it makes s3 of ENT look like a fucking masterpiece of storytelling. Like, the thing that's so jarring about these nuTrek monstrosities is once you get past all the fucking lensflare lazerbeeem pewpewpepewpew specialFX SPOARDRIVE,LOLSORANDUM gimmicking flashy shit.. there's nothing left. It's so shitty when you actually stop to think about it that it makes the worst parts of ENT and VOY seem pretty damn good. It's madness, this new world has Star Trek and Star Wars fans united in anguish that something they once loved has been trashed by usurpers who don't really seem to understand what made the thing worth giving a shit about to begin with. Both brands are basically being run by complete outsiders who view it as a commodity. Such unparalleled greed and disregard for quality might even be looked upon with disdain by a Ferengi, not for the greed part, which they would not doubt admire, but for the lack of vision towards long term profitability. Because the truth is Star Trek isn't just the name, you can't just slap a little TOS chevron on something retarded and expect me to care. Star Trek is about an ideal, it's about hope and optimism that the better angels of our nature will win out against our inner demons as a species. It's the idea that there is a technical solution to almost every problem. It's about the concept, at its very core, that people CAN be better if they strive for it. But first and very foremost, it is about something that has been lost in much of modern sci-fi: that an amazing future lies in store, a better future, all we have to do is make it happen. It's up to us.
>>
Subcommander T'Rul - Tue, 02 Jul 2019 06:57:50 EST hIvXY1VP No.67898 Reply
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>>67894
Ok I'll give the expanse a try. Orville is fire too.
>>
C-Higgy !lfsExjBfzE - Thu, 04 Jul 2019 14:11:51 EST ZrugFMJZ No.67913 Reply
>>67894
You know, I had stopped watching The Expanse after season 2 episode 5 when Miller diedp but I should try to get back into it before season 4. The Orville is a really great show and more Star Trek than Discovery is.
>>
Kozak - Fri, 05 Jul 2019 16:40:05 EST oDV8iW5L No.67919 Reply
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>>67913
Chiggs finish the fucking Expanse maybe itll get you to stop watching so much other shit WATCH THE WIRE YOU ASS
>>
Guinan - Sun, 07 Jul 2019 04:29:58 EST b048m/L8 No.67926 Reply
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>>67913
I really recommend giving it another try. I'll be honest with you, that first arc (corresponding to the first book, and culminating in s2e5) is by itself some of the best sci-fi I've seen. Also it was a pretty good translation of book to film, there were minimal changes mostly done for what appeared to be technical reasons.

The second arc is not quite as amazing but it's still solid and compelling. This book was a little bit different from the show, but in a striking affront to normalcy, it seemed to me that the show was actually slightly better because of the changes they made.

But the third arc is where it really comes together. This arc was really quite different from the book, a lot of characters were changed or merged or switched.. but interestingly enough, I still personally felt that the show had done a better job of weaving its narrative.

I have no idea what the books are like beyond this. I've avoided reading them. But the hook at the end of S3 is making that very, very hard.

Just watch it C-Higgy! You know you want to...
>>
Prophet - Sat, 17 Aug 2019 02:15:16 EST 2PMvnQg3 No.68415 Reply
>>68414
Premiere episode of what? I aint watching some retarded youtube video
>>
Arne Darvin - Sat, 17 Aug 2019 12:33:20 EST z+EotTKk No.68420 Reply
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>>68415
I'm terribly sorry. Let's call this one, "Cynical Overweight Vulgar Black Woman Rips Star Trak Duhscovery A New Astrahole".
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Sat, 17 Aug 2019 19:27:32 EST KA3qn+7B No.68421 Reply
>>68420
>Supermassive Black Ho Rips STD a New Supermassive Black Hole
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Sat, 17 Aug 2019 19:29:50 EST KA3qn+7B No.68422 Reply
>>68421
btw that's just some fun world play and not intended to be an insult because I didn't even watch the video (unless the video is actually shit, then take it as an insult)
>>
Jake Sisko - Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:23:34 EST SVTKt/MF No.68427 Reply
is that wemb what it's like? that sucked ass. looked like power rangers
>>
Darien Wallace - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 00:25:41 EST FhoSxFi4 No.68431 Reply
Anybody else think it's ironic the series is literally called "STD"?
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 00:48:47 EST KA3qn+7B No.68432 Reply
>>68431
No.
But we have noticed years ago that it was pretty coincidental that it's called STD since it is literally a disease in the franchise.
>>
Senator Kimara Cretak - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 02:24:23 EST qxosunFH No.68433 Reply
>>68432

Specifically, a disease that makes it harder for the afflicted franchise to reproduce
>>
Subcommander Velal - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 13:05:19 EST xa3yHNWl No.68434 Reply
lol face it boomers. your show wasn't that good anyways
>>
Therm0ptic !cyBOrG7t12 - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 17:44:48 EST KA3qn+7B No.68437 Reply
>>68435
Oh nevermind. You have no other posts on this entire board. You just went out of your way to go to a board about a show you don't think is good to say it's not that good. Congrats on being cooler than the rest of us.
>>
Vash - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 18:42:32 EST pRqPWztv No.68438 Reply
>>68434
>your show wasn't that good anyways

You wouldn't know good writing if it did a pointless 180 twisty tilt pan up your own asshole.
>>
Grand Nagus Zek - Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:24:27 EST GXnxVYUu No.68440 Reply
>>68439
For the record, I left the name field blank. Netjester is with me.
>>
Guinan - Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:52:39 EST b048m/L8 No.68456 Reply
>>68440
This was prophecized ten thousand years ago. At last, the hour has arrived.
>>
Vekma - Sun, 08 Sep 2019 23:40:46 EST 4GsHgwzz No.68550 Reply
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Another day, another Discovery milestone in woke-ness.

tl:dr brown trophy hire Walter Mosley dropped the n-word while telling a story to fellow writers at Discovery, they reported him to HR who instructed Mosley that he was not allowed to speak it in the office. He walked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MBjpSJRxOg

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/06/opinion/sunday/walter-mosley.html

>Why I Quit the Writers’ Room

>I do not believe that it should be the object of our political culture to silence those things said that make some people uncomfortable. Of course I’m not talking about verbal attacks or harassment. But if I have an opinion, a history, a word that explains better than anything how I feel, then I also have the right to express that feeling or that word without the threat of losing my job. And furthermore, I do not believe that it is the province of H.R. to make the decision to keep my accusers’ identities secret. If I’ve said or done something bad enough to cause people to fear me, they should call the police.
>>
Katherine Pulaski - Mon, 09 Sep 2019 00:23:17 EST cTbtNCon No.68551 Reply
>>68550
>woke-ness

holding everyone equally accountable for their use of racial slurs in a professional environment is a bit of "woke-ness" that nobody should oppose. it's all well and good to call a guy a "brown trophy hire" here or throw around the n-word with your homies, but in an office of any nature that shit doesn't, and for the sake of precedent, can't fly.

if mosley has a problem with a pretty standard hr policy of protecting whistleblowers' identities then maybe he needs to write freelance and stay away from oppressive, staff jobs.
>>
Juan Cena - Mon, 09 Sep 2019 11:52:10 EST oBOai3ZN No.68552 Reply
>>68551
Mosley's issue is that the person ran to HR instead of the person going to him explaining their problem with his true story. He wasn't run around the office recklessly saying the word.

The person that told HR does not know the meaning of context. It is ironic because Discovery's third episode is entitled Context is For Kings...*snort*
>>
Thomas Riker - Mon, 09 Sep 2019 12:23:22 EST bOlOhkyn No.68553 Reply
it's not like he would have somehow magically made discovery not shit
>>
Jennifer Sisko - Mon, 09 Sep 2019 22:12:05 EST byRgzBbN No.68554 Reply
>>66908

wow so far i have avoided watching even 1 second of STD because of all i have heard and read about it, and because that chick from the walking dead can't act. i never actually clicked on the OP webm before until now, always just scrolled past this thread. holy shit i have never actually cringed so hard from a webm on here before. my face is sore from the cringing. to think that cgi actiontrash just has the trek emblem rubber-stamped onto it. disgusting. every good franchise is dead.
>>
Dr. Mizan - Mon, 09 Sep 2019 23:11:44 EST bOlOhkyn No.68555 Reply
>>68554
I've seen a couple of webms, one of the ship doing SPIN2WIN and some shit that looked like the FMV from a video game with some people trying way too hard to look cool as they walked into the Ministry of Stafleet Magic
>>
Guinan - Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:34:41 EST W6NsNKtq No.68559 Reply
>>68554
I genuinely tried to give it a chance and couldnt get halfway through season 1. Aside from the mediocre-at-best Space Whale / timeloop episode it was complete torture. And that wasnt that great, it just almost felt trekesque. Almost.
>>
Badar N'D'D - Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:35:06 EST B3tv+vO/ No.68570 Reply
>>68559
It's actually really sad that that was probably the peak of the season. Because it was just some random inserted self-contained episode.
>>
Gaila - Sat, 14 Sep 2019 11:06:17 EST R3mYbKF8 No.68574 Reply
It’s like a drunk homeless person wrote episodes 11-15 of season 1. What the he’ll happened? The show almost made sense.

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