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420chan is Getting Overhauled - Changelog/Bug Report/Request Thread (Updated July 26)

Mongol Empire Discussion

- Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:27:04 EST ldRHh9cM No.56395
File: 1452205624047.jpg -(532290B / 519.81KB, 858x536) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. Mongol Empire Discussion
>Be Mongolians
>Have empire stretching from korea to poland
>Americans only remember you for BBQ resturaunts
Shit Hasslehurk - Thu, 14 Jan 2016 14:25:54 EST 6PhWCkVP No.56404 Reply
Did the Mongols do anything except ruin China, Central Asia, the Middle East and parts of Eastern Europe?
My limited understanding is that the hordes poured across Asia over a few generations, and a few generations after that we had successor empires that slowly splintered and declined. The places they conquered never recovered.
Cyril Piffingford - Thu, 14 Jan 2016 18:51:44 EST lkiULBb6 No.56405 Reply

This is true for Russia and the Arab countries but in China they founded a legit dynasty.
Martin Clickleway - Tue, 19 Jan 2016 05:30:33 EST nvRt55wR No.56411 Reply
They were really good at using other peoples technology and adapting to meet their ends more efficiently. The Mongol Empire is credited with holding the first theological debate between christian, muslim, and budhist priests. The empire was well accepting of diverse religious and cultural beliefs and one of the only places at the time where such beliefs coexisted.

One of the Khans after Genghis set-up a really good transportation and communication network along roads with runners interspersed at way-stations so to send messages quickly across the empire. In battle Genghis and his generals would attack then feint retreat sometimes, the enemy would pursue and get spread apart. Then the cavalry archers would turn and mow-down the first line then charge, causing a snowballing retreat. Later on Chinese tech was utilized for siege weaponry, especially against otherwise well-defended cities.

The empire dispersed information and goods throughout Europe and Asia, and contributed towards the renaissance of Europe. Even though mongoloid later became a slur, well after the last dynasty. Too bad about the assassins being wiped-out by them, shouldn't have betrayed the Mongol Empire Hashashins.
Eliza Fungerdedge - Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:30:13 EST 1shnN3KF No.56413 Reply
In China they just took over the highly developed administrative apparatus of the previous regime and vassimilated into Han Chinese culture. That explains a lot of their success there.
Barnaby Brackleridge - Wed, 10 Feb 2016 16:33:53 EST +YWvzOxQ No.56479 Reply
So this is just random but the song children of th grave by black sabbath always produced a vivid image of Mongolians on horses riding into battle, might be the drum rythem and my fear of horses mixing
Whitey Dropperhall - Sat, 13 Feb 2016 06:35:21 EST Tqrn+O6W No.56491 Reply
That's interesting. If anything I think it must be said that they really did help spread knowledge. They weren't just a bunch of murdering savages. As long as your city surrendered they would spare the literate, scholars, mathematicians etc and bring them with them.

I heard that the word Mongoloid becoming a slur was coined by John Langdon Down, the 19th century doctor who gave us the name "Down's Syndrome" who hypothesised that Down's Syndrome was caused by the dirty genetics that the Mongols brought and interbred into Eastern Europe during their conquering
Samuel Drimblehood - Sat, 13 Feb 2016 09:07:53 EST CwlDQeu1 No.56494 Reply
In addition to that, they took banditry along the Silk Road as a very serious issue which they dealt with very well. This accommodation of trade routes really helped establish not only economic, and cultural relations between East Asia, the Middle East and Europe, but it also spread knowledge, ideas and inventions.
Thomas Fellernog - Sat, 13 Feb 2016 10:52:33 EST 6PhWCkVP No.56495 Reply
>celebrating a band of murdering savages because they dabbled in intellectual stuff and killed bandits (competition)
MIDF shills everywhere.
Fanny Pezzlepark - Sun, 14 Feb 2016 17:48:11 EST aQVjg6fK No.56501 Reply

I don't know what your two out of three of your words mean but where are we celebrating them? We are pointing out ideas and creating debate. If you want to debate you can but at least reply with something we can understand
Emma Henderville - Sun, 14 Feb 2016 20:53:52 EST ZehXZOiW No.56502 Reply
Honestly I just see it as a cult of personality that grew up around Genghis and pretty much died with him. Similar to Alexander. Just a bit slower in this case.
Ernest Buggleham - Fri, 19 Feb 2016 09:00:56 EST 8cb/Ihsi No.56529 Reply

For better or worse, a lot of the technologies that proved crucial to the rise of Europe were enabled through the Mongol Empire. Also, if killing people invalidates other accomplishments made by a civilization, then there is not a single accomplished civilization on this planet.
Ernest Buggleham - Fri, 19 Feb 2016 09:05:20 EST 8cb/Ihsi No.56530 Reply

MIDF supposedly means Muslim Internet Defence Force (lol).
Albert Sonderridge - Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:11:22 EST FqRGTRMQ No.56531 Reply
Well, there's evidence that war didn't exist until human tribes started to settle down and live semi-nomadic lifestyles.

Of course, even then there was murder and skirmishing (hunters from the Baba clan see some hunters of the Bobo clan, they exchange some throwing spears and yell at each other, Reuben gets a javelin in his arm, and two months later he dies from an infection), but no real war. Besides the lack of prehistoric battlefields, there's also the simple fact that you need lots of people to wage war, and there weren't a lot of people around, and of course, when you're nomadic, and there aren't a lot of people, there's not much chance you meet other tribes, and when you don't meet a lot of tribes, there's even less chance for you to wage war.
Esther Duckstock - Fri, 19 Feb 2016 16:28:46 EST 6PhWCkVP No.56532 Reply
I was joking. The point was that the accomplishments of the Mongols are heavily outweighed by the chaos and destruction they wrought. Securing the Silk Road and enabling the spread of knowledge and culture is nice, but it's cool comfort for people from Poland to Iraq.

Fair enough.
As for great civilizations, I think we need to look at their upsides and downsides. The Romans, Persians, Brits, Americans, Arabs, Greeks etc did incredible things and incredibly horrible things. We shouldn't blindly praise or condemn them, but rather look at the bigger picture.

Mongol Internet Defense Force.
Graham Fanridge - Sat, 20 Feb 2016 02:37:31 EST VdSquBhV No.56533 Reply
If I recall correctly one of the reasons the Black Death spread through Asia so effectively was due in part to the openness of the trade routes as kept by Ghengis' successors.
Also Tamerlane left no Kingdom that could be seen as beneficial. Alexander the Great''s empire was also quickly divided up, leaving you to wonder what long term positive effects were gained, if any
Fanny Budgefuck - Sat, 20 Feb 2016 05:04:25 EST yzFkBcu4 No.56534 Reply
It's funny how one talks about the Mongols in terms of "well sure they killed millions of people but they also brought lots of technology and stuff!!!!!!". At what point during history do people start thinking the same about the Nazis?
Samuel Tillingworth - Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:25:19 EST FqRGTRMQ No.56538 Reply
In 2516. Quit being "controversial" for no goddamn reason. You're as cringy as Cartman.
Eliza Sesslefield - Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:45:28 EST bmbARlua No.56539 Reply
It's a valid point. Dan Carlin discusses this exact point at the very start of his series about Ghengis Khan.
Jarvis Diddleshaw - Sun, 21 Feb 2016 04:37:38 EST /TsbS73z No.56542 Reply
How the hell am I being controversial? I'm asking a genuine question you edgelord. The point that I was implying within was that it's easy for us to brush away all the bad things former empires from the past have done and focus on the good, because there is no one around today that has felt the hurt of what they did (cities burnt, millions slaughtered), or rather the negative impact they've had on the world is so far removed from ours.

As Eliza says Dan Carlin makes this point, in fact it's from that particular podcast that I started to think about this. We all know the Romans enslaved and killed millions, supplanted countless civiliations and cultures, but at the same time we all know the technological and cultural achievements they spread (which were mainly stolen anyways). No one ever really derides Rome, only praises. All I'm asking is it ok for historians and people alike to do this? Is what's in the past in the past? If so, then how does anyone feel about the Nazis being portrayed in a similar light a few hundred years down the line? They did bring us VWs, modern rockets, assault rifles, first nation to lead an anti-smoking campaign, etc. I'm sure there's plenty of other things they contributed to our world today.

I'm just curious, you fucking nimrod. Clearly you aren't capable of an adult discussion so fuck off back to /b/, cheers.
Nicholas Fettingbury - Sun, 21 Feb 2016 05:50:56 EST FqRGTRMQ No.56543 Reply
You're comparing something that's 70 years ago with something from 500 years ago.

You are being RETARDED.
Basil Wollystock - Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:22:23 EST 26AxHt5F No.56544 Reply
'Fraid it's you who's the retard my man. I'm comparing various historical structures, be it an empire or kingdom or modern-nation state founded on racist ideology, and comparing their effects on the world we live in today, and asking is it moral to outweigh the negatives when it's so far behind in the past so as to not have any relevance to us. You're actually kind of exactly proving my point. Because something happened 70 years ago, does it's consequences make it worse than something that happened 500 years ago? (and again I'm only asking for opinions not stating fact you illiterate retard)

Good job on failing basic comprehension though. I'm just looking for genuine discussion, not shitslinging "GOD U R RETARD" and completely misconstruing people's opinions. Fuck, you're probably not gonna do well in life man. I know being 18 is tough and you're full of angst but there's gotta be a point where you sit down and learn how to have a conversation. Or you can just continue being a flaming retard for the rest of your life, I don't really care.
Jarvis Clinderwill - Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:00:27 EST x7WtT6UX No.56545 Reply
Lay off the retard this is billionth time he's agrueed about this stupied shit
Albert Fucklechark - Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:38:45 EST FqRGTRMQ No.56549 Reply
>Because something happened 70 years ago, does it's consequences make it worse than something that happened 500 years ago?

Yeah, of course. Why are you trying to get a discussion going over some fucking basic primary school history class shit?

Atrocities 100 years ago are worse than atrocities 1000 years ago. That's logical. The end.

Can we please get back to horse archers and rocket cannons?
James Willerchack - Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:00:15 EST B/lQOWiz No.56550 Reply
Solid argument brah 10/10 would discuss with again
Priscilla Benninghall - Tue, 23 Feb 2016 18:19:35 EST CwlDQeu1 No.56551 Reply
You could argue that Nazi Germany did contribute to the invention of jet engines, automatic rifles and improvements in medicine (via vivisection of humans), however there were contemporary nations that were working on the exact same technologies and discovery was practically imminent. But then comes the factor of WHY other people were also working on developing those technologies? War. War has always been the fuel of discovery for humans. Would the jet engine and automatic rifle be discovered without Nazi Germany? Probably, but there would have been another conflict that would instigate that discovery that could be just just a flash in the pan, or just as bad, if not worse than WW2.

Now, are the "good" things (they're definitely more than rifles and engines, I just can't think of anything else right now) that came out of Nazi Germany comparable to the positive effects the Mongols had on world economic and cultural trade? In my opinion probably not. Just like with Nazi Germany, you could argue that if the Mongols never "happened" their place in history could be replaced by a different entity, either more or less facilitating towards the trade (among other things), but with the unique difference that the Silk Road network of trade routes is one of a kind, unlike the possibility of multiple discovery of technology.

I really hope you guys get the point I'm trying to make. I'm high as shit on k and not a native English speaker.
Fanny Wenderspear - Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:17:06 EST d95XkAke No.56553 Reply

The only medical advantage humanity got out of those nazi experiments are certain numbers about human resistance against cold temperatures. Pretty much everything else was just complete bullshit like Mengele trying to change people's eye color or sewing twins together.
Shit Bardfield - Wed, 24 Feb 2016 18:22:09 EST Le6xyE7/ No.56554 Reply
Well, you sure missed the point of my post. Any other takers?
Martha Gummerforth - Wed, 24 Feb 2016 20:48:41 EST 7ClHmTpa No.56555 Reply
The Nazis made many advances in technology such as rockets jets and radio. Both sides discovered a lot by outmatching and/or countering advanced technologies with other tech.
IIRC the Japs made more of the advances in medicine that you are referring to. At places like Unit 731 doing experiements on infectious agents and extreme conditions on live humans where they meticulously documented the effects. I believe many that instigated all this were exhonerated at the Nuremburg trials in exchange for the data
Jack Pepperstock - Thu, 25 Feb 2016 20:22:43 EST FHacsYQJ No.56556 Reply

I wouldn't call "gruesome ways to kill people with germs" medical advances. They also believed weird bullshit like bacteria that manage to infect/kill people would be stronger and so they drained the blood from dead people to extract those badass bacteria.
Jenny Sittingchot - Fri, 26 Feb 2016 15:36:15 EST 1zqE+127 No.56557 Reply
I've always wondered if thousands of years from now hitler and the nazis will be viewed in the same light as Genghis Khan and the Mongol empire, as the dominant "badass" leader who conquered multiple regions with the whole genocide thing brushed aside.
Nell Bullyhit - Sat, 27 Feb 2016 15:30:58 EST FqRGTRMQ No.56559 Reply
Well, unlike the Mongols that had a massive effect on the world for hundreds of years, the Nazis basically didn't accomplish anything.

>but V2's and jet fighters!
Hitler didn't believe in rockets, and he didn't even see the potential behind them (hell, just look up how Braun looked back at his time making V2's compared to his time at NASA). And those German jet fighters, they were shit. Just like those electro-hybrid engines Porsche tried to make for the Tiger tanks. And a fucking million other projects that sounded good on paper, but failed because Germany didn't have the resources and brainpower (brilliant idea kicking all those Jews out of Germany retards) to handle the engineering difficulties to turn prototypes in mass production objects.
Cyril Hurringforth - Wed, 02 Mar 2016 07:00:22 EST UH38+jj5 No.56565 Reply
I heard he also cancelled any research on projects that could not be developed and battle ready within 1-2 years because he believed the war would be over by then
Hugh Mogglespear - Wed, 02 Mar 2016 08:39:06 EST FqRGTRMQ No.56566 Reply
Yeah he was a fucking idiot. When you really dig into WW2 history, it's just amazing how the Nazis didn't fucking lose right in 1944 or even earlier.

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