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"Clean" Governor of Jakarta Jailed 2 Years for Blaspheming by Ebenezer Debberworth - Sat, 13 May 2017 15:13:12 EST ID:+2xmUbWo No.158015 Ignore Report Quick Reply
File: 1494702792456.jpg -(55892B / 54.58KB, 627x663) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. 55892
>A court in Indonesia has sentenced the capital's Christian governor to two years in prison for blasphemy against Islam, in a decision that has cheered Muslim conservatives and crushed the hopes of advocates of a more pluralistic and tolerant path for their nation.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/09/527570325/jakartas-christian-governor-sentenced-to-2-years-for-blasphemy
>>
Hamilton Chullyhon - Sat, 13 May 2017 16:07:35 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158016 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Yeah, and Uganda is jailing and trying to execute people for being gay. Do you have any point but spamming your bullshit Islamophobia?
>>
Martin Fepperfetch - Sat, 13 May 2017 16:29:35 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158017 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158016
>don't talk about bad things if muslims or brown people do them, its hate speech.
>>
Nicholas Hurrykan - Sat, 13 May 2017 16:34:56 EST ID:V73bHX6y No.158018 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158017
He just pointed out Ugandans are jailing gays. Last I checked Ugandans are brown.
>>
Hamilton Chullyhon - Sat, 13 May 2017 16:52:37 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158019 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158017
No, just pointing out that this is spam, and that the problem isn't Islam, its Fundamentalism, and that can be found in any religion.
>>
Martin Fepperfetch - Sat, 13 May 2017 17:21:17 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158020 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494710477756.jpg -(48408B / 47.27KB, 506x395) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>158019
Which majority muslim countries accept gays tho? Oh yea its zero

inb4 bible doesnt like gays either.
True but kill all the gays is not in the 10 commandments like its written in shariah law.
>>
Lillian Goodshaw - Sat, 13 May 2017 17:39:04 EST ID:fXST/jPW No.158022 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158020

Yeah because Erdogan is the authority on Islam that fucking pig needs to die fucking cunt gassing Kurds and propping up ISIS.
>>
Lillian Goodshaw - Sat, 13 May 2017 17:41:23 EST ID:fXST/jPW No.158023 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158020

>True but kill all the gays is not in the 10 commandments like its written in shariah law.

No it isn't do you even know what a mukhannathun is Iran has the highest population of transsexuals aside from Thailand
>>
Walter Babberfoot - Sat, 13 May 2017 17:51:59 EST ID:xvt821T3 No.158024 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158023
There's a pretty fucked up reason for that.

"Any type of sexual activity outside a heterosexual marriage is forbidden. Transsexuality in Iran is legal if accompanied by a sex change operation, with Iran carrying out more sex-change operations than any other country in the world after Thailand. These surgeries are typically partially funded by the state – there have been claims that some homosexual men may have been pressured to undergo them both by government and society."

From LGBT rights in Iran wiki page.
>>
Hamilton Chullyhon - Sat, 13 May 2017 17:55:36 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158025 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158020
>shariah law

You know that's an interpretation, and not some code written out in the Quran, right?

And again, its Fundamentalism, not Islam itself. Secular Islamic countries (before most got overthrown) did not have such harsh laws. Laws that Domininists in America very much wish to emulate.
>>
Martin Fepperfetch - Sat, 13 May 2017 18:09:18 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158027 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158022
Turkey until recently was the country people used to "prove" muslims are even capable of democracy lol.
Funny thing is they were a semi-democracy when they had completely cut out islam from politics. Thats over tho


>>158023
I see Walter already explained it.


>>158025
You should read it some time and you will find out its very politic and directly organizes Muslims life. It even has law on which percentages inheritances are to be split by. Also there are no contradictions in the Quran because muhammed set the rule that in case of a contradiction, whatever he dictated last is law (he wrote the last parts of it when I was at war with infidels by the way).
>>
Hamilton Chullyhon - Sat, 13 May 2017 18:16:54 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158028 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158027
>You should read it some time and you will find out its very politic and directly organizes Muslims life.


Yeah, and so does the Bible, or did you forget its a sin to wear clothing with mixed fibers?
>>
Martin Fepperfetch - Sat, 13 May 2017 18:26:32 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158029 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158028
Difference lies in that the bible was written by hundreds of people over a long time. Plenty of contradictions you can interpret any way. That opened it up for reform.
Quran was dictated by one slave owning illiterate to his writers.
>>
Alice Crendlefuck - Sat, 13 May 2017 18:49:38 EST ID:O+Tn+tk4 No.158030 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>yet another thread about Islam

nb
>>
Hamilton Chullyhon - Sat, 13 May 2017 19:59:46 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158031 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158029
Sweet moving the goalposts bro.
>>
Charles Trotwell - Sat, 13 May 2017 22:09:20 EST ID:ZWy+evlr No.158035 Ignore Report Quick Reply
I'm converting to Islam because of this thread.
>>
Hamilton Snodville - Sat, 13 May 2017 22:53:42 EST ID:JWp/ZIyX No.158036 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158029
the apostles were probably mostly illiterate too. the lower classes in the roman empire were usually illiterate. in all likelyhood jesus was an illiterate desert hippie. being a scribe was a decent living back then. and the bible is pretty clear on a lot of it's less savory shit as well. no reason why we can't condemn the garbage in both books. and people have been arguing over the true meaning of different parts of the quran for centuries.
>>
James Clayfield - Sun, 14 May 2017 11:22:55 EST ID:TgT9jP6P No.158043 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158024

I'm not an Iran apologist merely pointing out a glaring flaw in your logic. Yes Iran does pressure homosexuals to undergo trans surgery but what does this say about your argument that Islam calls for the slaying of all homosexuals? Calls it bogus is what it does. Compared to a country that is still in the process of shitting its pants over transgender bathrooms Iran is lightyears ahead.

Just here fucking with your head loser.

Convert to Islam.

>>158025

Take the Sufi interpretation(s) of the Quran, a group that has had to endure way more bullshit bombings from Wahhabists than any Western crybaby nation. You never see anyone talk about Sufism when discussing Islam, it's practically unheard of, all you hear is

"REEEEEEEEEEEEE MUH RADICAL ISLAM TAKIN OVER MY WHITE WOMENS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEARGH MUH FREEDOMS SHARIAH LAWWWWWW"
>>
James Clayfield - Sun, 14 May 2017 11:30:01 EST ID:TgT9jP6P No.158044 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158029

Here's a Christian yes Christian site that goes through the trouble of disproving your claim of Muhammad's illiteracy;

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-muhammad-not-illiterate.htm

It's a poorly cited article that isn't to be taken seriously but I just want to push you down the rabbit hole here.

Most Islamic scholars maintain that Muhammad could not read or write until the revelation of the Quran which gave him the ability to among other things.

He did not have it dictated. He wrote it down. Word by word, page by page and, according to Islam, all while being previously illiterate thanks be to God.
>>
James Clayfield - Sun, 14 May 2017 11:35:41 EST ID:TgT9jP6P No.158045 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158027

>Turkey until recently was the country people used to "prove" muslims are even capable of democracy lol.

That is not the reason for Turkey's favor by the West, the reason is longstanding political ties to the nation and the lasting influence of the Ottoman empire, yes lasting influence. There are plenty of democratic Muslim nations but being majority Muslim they don't conform to your style of thinking which is how democracy can work sometimes bub.


>Funny thing is they were a semi-democracy when they had completely cut out islam from politics. Thats over tho

That again has nothing to do with democracy, here democracy works by favoring a resurgence of Islamic thought in a previously secular society. If the people all start to turn religious, ya get religion.
>>
James Clayfield - Sun, 14 May 2017 11:38:02 EST ID:TgT9jP6P No.158046 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158045

Just want to make clear I don't support democratic thought, merely pointing out flaws in argument. Democracy is degenerate mob rule. Whatever the People decide collectively ultimately gets to be law, without answering to God or nature. It's a mental disorder.
>>
James Clayfield - Sun, 14 May 2017 11:57:38 EST ID:TgT9jP6P No.158047 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158046

Freedom doesn't even come from democracy, it comes from transcendence. People are easily led by what they know by those who know more than them, is that freedom?
>>
Eliza Clirryshit - Sun, 14 May 2017 14:09:05 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158051 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158036
>implying if you think islam is shit you automatically have to love the bible
>>
Eliza Clirryshit - Sun, 14 May 2017 14:12:06 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158052 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158045
>he thinks turkey is a democracy
>he thinks there are plenty of democratic Muslim nations
wew
>>
Eliza Clirryshit - Sun, 14 May 2017 14:13:16 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158053 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158046
agreed
>>
John Fubbershaw - Sun, 14 May 2017 14:24:18 EST ID:PtalCAUc No.158054 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158053 ha tricked you faggot now you will be on a watch list for hating freedom I don't actually believe that shit I'm a Sufi mystic neenerneener
>>
Cornelius Pittcocke - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:27:10 EST ID:HoW/oQNE No.158056 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Denmark doing it too.
Inshallah Islam will rule the world!
>>
Cornelius Pittcocke - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:32:02 EST ID:HoW/oQNE No.158057 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1494790322502.jpg -(33159B / 32.38KB, 700x263) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Migrate and create lions for Allah!
>>
Cornelius Pittcocke - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:34:14 EST ID:HoW/oQNE No.158058 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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https://boards.420chan.org/n/src/1490279608467.jpg
https://boards.420chan.org/n/src/1490279608467.jpg
>>
Cornelius Pittcocke - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:39:10 EST ID:HoW/oQNE No.158059 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158019
FUCK ISLAM!

Shove it up your ass pig.
>>
Clara Pickham - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:39:29 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158060 Ignore Report Quick Reply
ahh, classic Cripplechan spam tactics.
>>
Clara Pickham - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:42:37 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158061 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158059
TRIGGERED
AS
FUCK
>>
Cornelius Pittcocke - Sun, 14 May 2017 15:47:02 EST ID:HoW/oQNE No.158062 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158043
>your argument that Islam calls for the slaying of all homosexuals
It blatantly calls for the slaying of anyone not muslim.

The rich people are allowed to stay Christian but have to accept extortion called jizya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGE2eBUdlQ
>>
John Fubbershaw - Sun, 14 May 2017 16:33:23 EST ID:PtalCAUc No.158065 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158062 those who can't afford the jizya, an ottoman turk invention, are exempt from it along with women, children, handicapped, mentally ill, monks, those in military service and foreign merchants. It's just a basic income tax to enforce one of the 5 pillars of Islam, zakhat, which is mandatory charity to the aforementioned poor.
>>
John Fubbershaw - Sun, 14 May 2017 16:38:58 EST ID:PtalCAUc No.158066 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158062 and no, Islam only calls Muslims to slay the aggressor, those who oppress Muslims with violence, it is a calling by Allah to defend God's community but where personal attacks are concerned it is advised to remain peaceful so long as it is only you being harmed and not innocents like those bombed by western nations in Baghdad, for example.
>>
John Fubbershaw - Sun, 14 May 2017 17:03:35 EST ID:PtalCAUc No.158067 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158062 also taqiyya, a defensive action, is a doctrine only believed in by some Shia branches and is not Sunni but it does provide a convenient excuse for the unwilling to learn to dam their ears and pretend Islam must be one giant lie convicted to hide amorphous evil intent, all the while cherrypicking out of context lines from the Qur'an to explicate supposed evil intent. This has the result of stifling any rational discussion of Islam by those who fear it SO. Taqqiya is like the 5th amendment, it tells Muslims they are safe from sinning if they lie to not self incriminate. It is that simple and though the infamous Bedouin merchants interpretation plays fast and loose with the definition it is a religious liberty to be respected.
>>
Eliza Clirryshit - Sun, 14 May 2017 17:22:20 EST ID:sgRwI/TL No.158068 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158054
The right to vote should be acquired via IQ tests.

inb4 thats racist
>>
Clara Pickham - Sun, 14 May 2017 17:36:10 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158069 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158068
Odd for someone to advocate their own disenfranchisement.
>>
Esther Buzzhall - Mon, 15 May 2017 04:57:22 EST ID:EpV6Hx/N No.158074 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158069
I I'm too dumb to pass it I shouldn't vote tbh
>>
Albert Cablingbadge - Mon, 15 May 2017 06:31:08 EST ID:cm4LvD/b No.158078 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158074
>implying thats how voter """"""""""IQ tests"""""""""" work.
>>
Martha Fanbanks - Mon, 15 May 2017 11:42:05 EST ID:McxUCEp7 No.158087 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158068 what would your minimum threshold be? 100? 120? 140 maybe?
>>
Priscilla Hablingfoot - Mon, 15 May 2017 17:17:15 EST ID:NvjNMZcV No.158091 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158087
Determine the country-wide mean and put the threshold there to cut out the lower 50% IQ wise.
>>
Henry Herrysad - Mon, 15 May 2017 17:33:17 EST ID:XZKcEVGb No.158092 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158091

Mean IQ of America is 98 why don't you try Google next time.

98 is pretty low. Average. Do we really want average people voting? Why not set it at 120 that seems reasonable. 140 would mean too few voters but 120 is just right.
>>
Priscilla Hablingfoot - Mon, 15 May 2017 17:46:44 EST ID:NvjNMZcV No.158093 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158092
>every person on the internet is murican
>>
David Brookson - Mon, 15 May 2017 17:58:22 EST ID:iA1Y5JUt No.158094 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158067
Was this a defensive action?
>>
Henry Herrysad - Mon, 15 May 2017 18:04:32 EST ID:XZKcEVGb No.158095 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158094

I don't follow, are you implying those wars were entirely offensive thus Islam is bad or that the Caliphs who waged them were violating Islamic principals in which case may I refer you to the legendary incident of Saladin being threatened by the Hashashin for invading Europe.
>>
Henry Herrysad - Mon, 15 May 2017 18:05:59 EST ID:XZKcEVGb No.158096 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158093

That was stupid of me.
>>
Walter Bizzlecocke - Mon, 15 May 2017 20:35:07 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158097 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158094
Given all the atrocities commuted by the Crusaders...


Not at it matters, Thats how empires did things back then, Islamic, or otherwise (or that Spain was FAR nicer under Islam then Christianity)
>>
Phyllis Hiddlewater - Tue, 16 May 2017 03:25:23 EST ID:NvjNMZcV No.158118 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158097
But anon. The crusades started hundreds of years after the muslims started conquering all that.

>Thats how empires did things back then
Yes but in case of crusades it needs to be remembered because it was bad whiteys doing it! When the muslims did it its "just how things were back then, bruh". They probably only did it because they knew europeans were gonna conquer Jerusalem 200years after !!
>>
Walter Bizzlecocke - Tue, 16 May 2017 03:27:55 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158119 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158118
Sweet Cripplechan buzzwords bro.
>>
Nell Mabblekere - Tue, 16 May 2017 04:59:54 EST ID:R1yHma3R No.158122 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158097
go ahead and move to the middle east then. If they are so peaceful. I'm sure you'll be fine.
>>
Walter Bizzlecocke - Tue, 16 May 2017 09:45:17 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158131 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158122
If I wanted to deal with fundamentalism, I'll just move to the US. it's closer, and not as warm.
>>
Angus Blythecocke - Tue, 16 May 2017 09:53:41 EST ID:okcxXpDl No.158136 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Dammit, Indonesia was really the only major Muslim country that wasn't all theocratic and shit.
>>
Phoebe Lightdale - Wed, 17 May 2017 09:52:46 EST ID:+2xmUbWo No.158171 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158136

Op here. That's the reason I made the thread. But it has devolved into a discussion on Iranian transsexuals and Ottoman taxation schemes.
>>
Wesley Duckdock - Wed, 17 May 2017 12:18:30 EST ID:okcxXpDl No.158176 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158171
>a discussion on Iranian transsexuals and Ottoman taxation schemes.
welcome to the internet
http://thediplomat.com/2017/04/the-fall-of-ahok-and-indonesias-future/
>>
Charles Gabblenire - Wed, 17 May 2017 15:50:43 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158181 Ignore Report Quick Reply
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/15/sovereign-citizens-rightwing-terrorism-hate-us-government?

But please, keep telling me how Islam is the real danger to America.
>>
Cornelius Blubberpeg - Wed, 17 May 2017 18:06:57 EST ID:NSHJykeG No.158185 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158181
make ur own thread fag.
>>
Nathaniel Shakefoot - Wed, 17 May 2017 18:39:48 EST ID:rLmEVEUE No.158188 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158181


The world's a wild place son
>>
Wesley Duckdock - Wed, 17 May 2017 18:45:10 EST ID:okcxXpDl No.158189 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158181
It's not specifically Islam. This does mean though that the Islamic world lacks a role model. TBH a lot would suggest that general political infighting was the reason and sectarianism the method when it comes to removing Ahok. Christian fundamentalism is regressive even in modern Europe and North America; the worry is that they will repeat our mistakes.
>>
Nathaniel Shakefoot - Wed, 17 May 2017 19:29:05 EST ID:rLmEVEUE No.158190 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158189

>the method

He's right you know

But that does comprise a larger agenda of political Islam.

As a Sufi this is troubling because political Islam is usually Wahhabism which is an enemy of Sufism;

https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/15/sufi-muslims-feel-heat-indonesias-rising-intolerance

Sufi principles are bad for any sort of political powergrabbing and the power hungry thugs who often comprise Wahhabist movements go after Sufi places of worship with suicide bombings and aggressive shootings for a reason.

http://ircpl.org/projects/cdtr/sufi-islam-in-21st-century-politics/

There are many people who say "Islam is Islam" but this is more often a statement by its enemies than its friends.
>>
Sidney Biffingman - Thu, 18 May 2017 18:36:42 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158213 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158190
The marginalization of the Sufis is really both a symptom and a cause of Islams current degeneracy. Mongols, Europeans and Muslims themselves, all contributed to the collapse of the Islamic golden age. Since then it's been mostly Ottoman or backwater. After the camel-herders of Arabia became fantastically wealthy Islam has slowly become synonymous with theocratic fundamentalism. Not that most religions haven't gone through several similar phases... Don't worry - the Americans will bomb the problem right!
>>
Doris Facklestack - Thu, 18 May 2017 20:00:44 EST ID:I5RWa/so No.158215 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158213

It's them fucking Mongols man all Genghis Khan's fault I knew this led back to him.
>>
Hugh Blackshaw - Fri, 19 May 2017 08:39:02 EST ID:QF4NkwF8 No.158224 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158097
>>
Hugh Blackshaw - Fri, 19 May 2017 08:42:20 EST ID:QF4NkwF8 No.158225 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158213
Don't fuck with the mongols lol. Arrogant arabs always get rekt in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJqk8-GWBkU
>>
Sophie Dartson - Fri, 19 May 2017 09:32:33 EST ID:ap5HJjml No.158229 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158224

Wow the Crusaders were a bunch of pussies.
>>
Fucking Nickleshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 12:51:19 EST ID:eurLHEEM No.158234 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158136
>Dammit, Indonesia was really the only major Muslim country that wasn't all theocratic and shit.
>In Indonesia, where religion plays a dominant role in society, and where almost 90 percent of the population are Muslim, homosexuality is not punishable by national law, but condemnation of homosexuality has been voiced by many religious leaders, not only Islamic.[1] The national criminal code does not prohibit cross-dressing or adult, non-commercial and consensual homosexual conduct between consenting adults, although it does contain a higher age of consent for same-sex sexual conduct, and there are some reports that police have sometimes harassed gay or transgender people using vaguely worded public indecency laws. At the local level, gay or transgender Muslims can be fined or imprisoned under provincial laws against homosexuality and cross-dressing. Indonesia's northwesternmost province of Aceh for example, has a sharia-based anti-homosexuality law that punishes anyone caught having gay sex with 100 lashes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Indonesia
>Discriminatory police raids conducted against homosexual men can lead to an imprisonment of 15 years. In April 2017, in Aceh, a homosexual couple had consensual coitus in the privacy of their own. They face public flogging based on the Sharia (Islamic laws). This is against international anti-torture law
>A national bill to criminalize homosexuality, along with cohabitation, adultery and the practice of witchcraft, failed to be enacted in 2003 and no subsequent bill has been reintroduced.[24] However, local governments have been given the option of passing local laws based on traditional Islamic morality.

>>158171
Not Ottoman. Muslim. All all rich kaffir must pay it. Rest can convert or die.
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 12:57:29 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158235 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158234

>Not Ottoman. Muslim. All all rich kaffir must pay it. Rest can convert or die.

Could you fucking stop repeating this absolute bullshit you redpilled nazi faggot

>>158065 I already explained jizya here, that's what it is. It's a tax that all people under a Muslim government enforcing it who are fit enough to pay have to pay INCLUDING MUSLIMS. It's no different than an income tax. It's also not backed by the Qur'an, it was an Ottoman invention to enforce one of the 5 pillars of Islam; Zakhat, which is mandatory charity. Where are your sources for your claims? Breitbart? stormfront?
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:00:48 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158236 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158235

That mandatory charity applies to Muslims in the same way the other 4 pillars apply to Muslims. It's one of the most basic things you have to do to be Muslim; give charitable donations to the poor and sick. Since being Muslim is A CHOICE ACCORDING TO THE QUR'AN there was never any law in the Qur'an for how Islamic governments should ENFORCE Zakat so the Ottoman empire in their infinite wisdom (lolno) came up with one.
>>
Fucking Nickleshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:08:46 EST ID:eurLHEEM No.158237 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158235
>INCLUDING MUSLIMS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
>Jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية‎‎ ǧizya IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: جزيه cizye) is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.
>Historically, the Jizya tax has been understood in Islam as a fee for protection provided by the Muslim ruler to non-Muslims, for the exemption from military service for non-Muslims, for the permission to practice a non-Muslim faith with some communal autonomy in a Muslim state, and as material proof of the non-Muslims' submission to the Muslim state and its laws.
>Jizya has also been understood by some as a ritual humiliation of the non-Muslims in a Muslim state for not converting to Islam,[32][33] while others argue that if it were meant to be a punishment for the dhimmis' unbelief then monks and the clergy wouldn't have been exempted.[34]
>The jizya tax was historically imposed on Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians in the Arabian peninsula, the Levant, Iraq, North Africa, Caucasus and Spain, and on Hindus on the Indian Subcontinent into the 19th century, but almost vanished during the 20th century.[35] The tax is no longer imposed by nation states in the Islamic world,[36][37] although there are reported cases of organizations such as the Pakistani Taliban and ISIS attempting to revive the practice.[

>>It's also not backed by the Qur'an
>The Quran and hadiths mention jizya without specifying its rate or amount.[16]

Fuck off goatfucker.


Ann Lambton states that the jizya was to be paid "in humiliating conditions".[58] Ennaji and other scholars state that some jurists required the jizya to be paid by each in person, by presenting himself, arriving on foot not horseback, by hand, in order to confirm that he lowers himself to being a subjected one, and willingly pays.[151][152][153] According to Mark R. Cohen, the Quran itself does not prescribe humiliating treatment for the dhimmi when paying Jizya, but some later Muslims interpreted it to contain "an equivocal warrant for debasing the dhimmi (non-Muslim) through a degrading method of remission".[154] In contrast, the 13th century hadith scholar and Shafi'ite jurist Al-Nawawī, comments on those who would impose a humiliation along with the paying of the jizya, stating, "As for this aforementioned practice, I know of no sound support for it in this respect, and it is only mentioned by the scholars of Khurasan. The majority of scholars say that the jizya is to be taken with gentleness, as one would receive a debt. The reliably correct opinion is that this practice is invalid and those who devised it should be refuted. It is not related that the Prophet or any of the rightly-guided caliphs did any such thing when collecting the jizya."[113][155][156] Ibn Qudamah also rejected this practice and noted that the Prophet and the rightly-guided caliphs encouraged that jizya be collected with gentleness and kindness.[113][157][158]

The Maliki scholar Al-Qurtubi states, "their punishment in case of non-payment [of jizya] while they were able [to do so] is permitted, however if their inability to pay it was clear then it isn't lawful to punish them, since if one isn't able to pay the jizya then he is exempted".[159] According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of the fifth Abbasid Caliph Harun al-Rashid, those who didn't pay jizya should be imprisoned and not be let out of custody until payment, however, the collectors of the jizya were instructed to show leniency, and avoid corporal punishment in case of non-payment.[140] If someone had agreed to pay jizya, leaving Muslim territory for enemy land was, in theory, punishable by enslavement if they were ever captured. This punishment did not apply if the person had suffered injustices from Muslims.[160]

Failure to pay the jizya was commonly punished by house arrest and some legal authorities allowed enslavement of dhimmis for non-payment of taxes.[161][162][163] In South Asia, for example, seizure of dhimmi families upon their failure to pay annual jizya was one of the two significant sources of slaves sold in the slave markets of Delhi Sultanate and Mughal era.
>>
Fucking Nickleshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:12:32 EST ID:eurLHEEM No.158239 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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IT'S ISLAM!
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:16:11 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158240 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158237
>>158237


>>It's also not backed by the Qur'an
>The Quran and hadiths mention jizya without specifying its rate or amount.[16]

>Sabet, Amr (2006), The American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences 24:4, Oxford; pp. 99–100.

That source isn't the Qur'an. Remember when your teachers told you not to use wikipedia as a source? There is a reason for that. It is riddled with poor citations. This one in particular says the Qur'an mentions Jizya, but refers to some journal, not the Qur'an. Why not just refer to the Qur'an if it is in the Qur'an?

I will respond to the rest of your post soon.
>>
Fucking Nickleshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:17:41 EST ID:eurLHEEM No.158241 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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DICKS EVERYWHERE
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:19:17 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158242 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158237

>Ann Lambton

Who?

>>She wrote several books on subjects ranging from Persian grammar and vocabulary to Qajar land reform. Ann Lambton played a role in overthrowing the democratically elected government of Mohammed Mossadegh. After the decision to nationalize Iran's oil interests in 1951, she advised the British government to undermine the authority of Mossadegh's regime. She proposed that Oxford University professor R. C. Zaehner should go to Iran and begin covert operations. In 1953, with the help of the CIA, the regime of Mossadegh was overthrown and the Shah was restored to the throne.

Oh, a CIA operative with a vested interest in overthrowing Islamic governments.

Nice source bud.
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:24:49 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158243 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158237

>According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of the fifth Abbasid Caliph Harun al-Rashid, those who didn't pay jizya should be imprisoned and not be let out of custody until payment,

A juror of a Caliph who did nothing but divide Islam by killing Musa Ibn Ja'far. Not surprising that he would entertain jurists who supported his political powergrabs.
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:26:09 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158244 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158239
>>158241

You are just chock full of shit aren't you?
>>
Fucking Nickleshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:26:54 EST ID:eurLHEEM No.158245 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158240
Lmao achmed, try harder, you can't lie on the internet. Update your medieval calendar, dog.

http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/jizya.aspx
>Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
>Hadith and Sira
Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - There are many places in the hadith where Muhammad tells his followers to demand the jizya of non-believers. Here he lays down the rule that it is to be extorted by force: "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Sahih Bukhari (53:386) - The command for Muslims to spread Islamic rule by force, subjugating others until they either convert to Islam or pay money, is eternal: Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." This is being recounted during the reign of Umar, Muhammad's companion and the second caliph, who sent conquering armies into non-Muslim Persian and Christian lands (after Muhammad's death).

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Allah-stipulate-Jizya-tax-from-non-Muslims-living-under-Islamic-rulers
>In the Quran [9:29] Allah says to take Jizya tax from non-Muslims.

https://controversialislam.wordpress.com/quran-verse-929/
>Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [Quran 9:29]

Reminder that Islam means subjugation
>>
Fucking Nickleshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:32:31 EST ID:eurLHEEM No.158246 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Islam is nothing more than a shtick adopted by bandits after realizing the power of religion (Christian, jewish)
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:45:53 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158247 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158245

So I have a Qur'an here, let's read Surah 9 verse 29.

"And fight against those who - despite having been vouchsafed revelation aforetime - do not truly believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not follow the religion of truth which God has enjoined upon them, till they agree to pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled in war"

In the footnotes we see referenced Surah 2 verses 190 to 194, why? The Qur'an must be understood as a whole and these verses refer to the principals under which war must be fought. I suggest you read them yourself, as they define war as only acceptable in terms of self defense, so these people who ""despite having been vouchsafed revelation aforetime - do not truly believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not follow the religion of truth which God has enjoined upon them""

Are people who, in violation of God's laws are attacking innocent Muslims.

That's not all the notes say though, so let's go through them;

The term Apostle here does not just refer to Mohammad, it refers to Jesus and Moses as well, their laws as well.

The notes say; "it is inconceivable that they should be subsequently blamed for comparatively minor offenses against their religious law; consequently the stress on "not forbidding that which God and His Apostle have forbidden" must refer to something graver than disbelief in God. In context of an ordinance enjoining war against them, this "something" can only mean one thing, namely, unprovoked aggression (which is forbidden).

So the people who are by war forced to pay this tax are aggressors who are getting their just desserts.

The last part of the notes on this verse basically covers what I have already said; that this is a tax that applies to ALL MUSLIMS ALREADY AS A GIVEN. The distinction is only made because when it applies to aggressors subjugated by war they are not giving money to fulfill Zakah, they are forced to because they tried to harm Muslims without reason.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:49:31 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158248 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158247

>(which is forbidden).

For the verse forbidding it refer to the verses aforementioned 2:190-194 from the Surah The Cow.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:50:37 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158249 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158248

If you want me to type those verses up for you I will, but I warn you that The Cow is the longest Surah in the Qur'an and you will have to do a lot of reading. If knowledge is more important to you than violence, you will understand the necessity.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:58:20 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158251 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158249

Also I'm white my birthname is John not Ahmed. That shouldn't matter but to you I have a feeling it will. A lot of damage has been done to Islam by false prophets like Farrakhan who have done serious damage to the reputations of good Muslims like Malcolm X (who recanted his involvement with Farrakhan after his pilgrimage to Mecca demonstrated the universality of Islam) so I suppose my race is relevant.
>>
Betsy Bunville - Fri, 19 May 2017 13:59:23 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158252 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158247
Dude, you are wasting WAY too much effort on these people. Quoting the Qur'an? You think these people will ever understand context of the Qur'an?
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John Shittingwill - Fri, 19 May 2017 14:08:10 EST ID:iWO2Roc1 No.158254 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158249
I don't care if Islam technically does not allow war other than self defence. If so was the case wtf was the invasion of Europe shown earlier about?
And why was the major activity of Mohammed, rape, slavery, murder and conquest?

Islamic texts are propaganda like the communist manifesto and Carl Marx writings.
You can pretend it's a utopia and have evil motives or you can be so stupid you think your religion / political ideology will work or be followed to the letter.
___
Our argument was that the Koran mentions the tax on non-muslims.
You stated clearly that the tax was for ALL citizens including Muslims like a regular tax AND that the Koran does not mention it.
You were proven wrong on both counts.

You're a liar and a propagandist. See you in the clash of civilizations, mohammed.

Notice that you didn't mention the other quotations either.


>that this is a tax that applies to ALL MUSLIMS ALREADY AS A GIVEN. The distinction is only made because when it applies to aggressors subjugated by war they are not giving money to fulfill Zakah, they are forced to because they tried to harm Muslims without reason.
No it's not. The charity of muslims is ordered by the religion but not enforced as a standard tax, it's charity, i.e voluntary and not set to a certain amount.

>it applies to aggressors subjugated by war
>because they tried to harm Muslims without reason.
Oh please give me a break, faggot. Same story for every empire, attacker is never the real aggressor right? hahahah

>muh religion of peace
>muh only taking back Europe that was muslim before Christian
>we dindu nuffin
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 14:11:57 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158255 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158252

I used to fear and hate the Qur'an and thought Allah speaking to me in dreams was ISIS using a microwave weapon on my brain to force me to convert to their death cult. I thought Mohammad was just a bloodthirsty idiot and couldn't understand why billions of people followed him, all the while disrespecting my Christian upbringing by decrying it as nonsense.

Islam and Christianity couldn't be closer, the exception is Islam teaches God is the only divine being and Jesus was not God, he was a prophet whose power came from God.

Pork is also forbidden in the Bible, so it's really weird that you see people shouting HURR PORK EATIN CRUSADER, things like that, there are just so many hypocritical inconsistencies, only the truly secular have any real argument against Islam imo.

The only serious argument between the Christian world and the Islamic world concerns Christ's divinity, everything else is the evident subversion of Christian ideals by the secular world.

I went through an ideological change of life and wasting time on people who I used to think exactly like does not bother me at all.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 14:28:52 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158256 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158254

>technically

It's not technical, it's the heart of the teaching. I'll type those verses for you if you want.

>invasion

Arab political maneuvering having nothing to do with following Islam and everything to do with using religion as a political prop.

For evidence of good Muslims trying to stop the madness refer to Saladin's visitation by the hashashims of the Alamut. They placed a poisoned dagger on his pillow in his war tent in the middle of his army with a note telling him to back off of Europe because Muslims are not conquerors. It scared him and he listened, but the monks of the Alamut couldn't reach everyone and unfortunately much misery was caused by those invasions.

>And why was the major activity of Mohammed, rape, slavery, murder and conquest?

There are two schools of the Sufi thought on this.

One is that Mohammad was not a rapist, kept slaves only as a punishment inflicted on aggressors, did not murder and only killed in self defense and, reaped the spoils of said wars waged in self defense.

The other is that Islam, in its infinite wisdom of referring to God as the one and only divine being in existence, has prophets, including Jesus, who are capable of sin and mistakes. Mohammad once said that he feared Allah's judgment when he would die, that even he had no idea what Allah would do to him (send him to paradise or hell, both of which are interchangeable in Islam btw, mirroring something like reincarnation but not quite the same). Are those the words of a perfect man? Consider the celebration of Abraham's near-miss of sacrificing his son as a Muslim holiday, Islam takes the imperfections of human beings as an important part of religion and doesn't hold its prophets exempt from this.

>No it's not. The charity of muslims is ordered by the religion but not enforced as a standard tax

No, not until the aforementioned Ottomans decided to start doing exactly that.

You are not Muslim if you don't give Zakah though, it's one of the 5 things you must do to be Muslim. A Muslim who doesn't give alms when they have the means to do so is just not a Muslim and should not be recognized as such, simple as that.

>Oh please give me a break, faggot. Same story for every empire, attacker is never the real aggressor right? hahahah

This is a religion you're referring to, not an empire. And no, it's not the same story for every empire. Many empires throughout history glorified and openly boasted of conquest, take the Mongols or the Huns for example. Rome did the same thing.


I see you are from /pol/ though.

Called it.
>>
Betsy Bunville - Fri, 19 May 2017 14:35:03 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158257 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158255
Alright, I respect you for that, still think the time can be better used, like growing a garden or something.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 14:38:18 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158258 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158257

I like to think I'm dissuading this guy from picking up a gun and shooting up a mosque.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 14:39:38 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158259 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158258

Though to be realistic that kind of person is just looking for an excuse to shoot people and will move onto something else if it doesn't fit. Maybe I'd better take a break.
>>
Clara Blackshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 15:05:29 EST ID:2kk+cRB/ No.158260 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158259
>Though to be realistic that kind of person is just looking for an excuse to shoot people and will move onto something else if it doesn't fit.
Maybe if we convince him that he was the Muslim the whole time he'll shoot himself and save everyone else the trouble.
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William Grimshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 17:50:04 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158269 Ignore Report Quick Reply
For the record there have been way more battles than just the crusades. Did y'all miss the part where most of the Muslim world was run by European empires?
As for religion http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ has the Quran and the book of Mormon too.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 18:03:01 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158271 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158269

I just stumbled upon this by serendipity and thought it might be interesting to some of you. Reminds me of the lost Gospels of the Gnostics, same situation, noteworthy part is bolded.;

The Koran is the sacred book of the Muslims (sometimes
called Mohammedans by non-Muslims, a term considered
offensive by some Muslims). It is the most important
foundation on which Islam rests and it is held in the
highest veneration by all Islamic sects. When being
read it must be kept on a stand elevated above the
floor. No one may read it or touch it without first
making a legal ablution. It is written in the Arabic
language, and its style is considered a model. The
substance of the Koran is held to be uncreated and
eternal. Mohammed was merely the person to whom the
work was revealed. At first the Koran was not written,
but entirely committed to memory. But when a great many
of the best Koran reciters had been killed in battle,
Omar suggested to Abu-Bekr (the successor of Mohammed)
that it should be written down. Abu-Bekr accordingly
commanded Zeid, an amanuensis of the prophet, to commit
it to writing. This was the authorized text until 23
years after the death of the prophet. A number of
variant readings had, however, crept into use. By order
of the calif Osman in the year 30 of the Hejira, Zeid
and three assistants made a careful revision which was
adopted as the standard, and all the other copies were
ordered to be burned.
The Koran consists of 114 suras
or divisions. These are not numbered, but each one has
a separate name. They are not arranged in historical
order. These suras purport to be the addresses
delivered by Mohammed during his career at Mecca and
Medina. As a general rule the shorter suras, which
contain the theology of Islam, belong to the Meccan
period; while the longer ones, relating to social
duties and relationships, to Medina. The Koran is
largely drawn from Jewish and Christian sources, the
former prevailing. Moses and Jesus are reckoned among
the prophets. The biblical narratives are interwoven
with rabbinical legends. The customs of the Jews are
made to conform to those of the Arabians. Islamic
theology consists in the study of the Koran and its
commentaries. A very fine collection of Korans,
including one in Cufic (the old Arabic character), is
to be found in the Khedival Library at Cairo, Egypt.
[Century Dict. 1906]
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 18:09:01 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158273 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158271

For tl;dr the original authentic Qur'an was apparently lost after Mohammad's death.

From that edit/burning of copies to the various Caliphates and Hadiths of questionable sources, it makes me wonder if the Qur'an, much like the Bible, is anything close to the original. I'm sure some monastery somewhere has it though, like the Gnostics who claim to have the missing parts of/original version of the Bible.

Makes me wonder, because the Qur'an's essence appealed to me, there's a good message in it but some of it must be politicized. Whether those are just the parts people find offensive or it's inconsequential I guess we'll never know.
>>
Betsy Bunville - Fri, 19 May 2017 18:28:40 EST ID:sw5oDyXg No.158274 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158273
Isn't the Qur'an meant to be oral though? I mean, that's kinda a big thing in Islamic scholarship to memorize the Qur'an. Dunno if that stops corruption, but its something that it does not share with the bible.
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Jarvis Gigglekit - Fri, 19 May 2017 18:59:15 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158277 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158235
My understanding of zakhat and jizya, is that there were basically early taxation schemes for a welfare state of sorts.

Now, why zakhat is twice jizya? Probably a mix of things. Some might have been general suspicion of outsiders coming into a system. Not wanting them to "take too much." Sound familiar fellow Amerifags? FYI, in the US resident aliens have to pay all the taxes, but get zero benefits from things like SS payments, unemployment, etc. You pay for them, but you don't get them. Nothing new there.

And, there was probably some legitimate practical reason for the price hike. Especially if non-muslims were exempt from other duties. This could have been seen as a safeguard.
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 19:03:17 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158278 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158274

Mohammad supposedly wrote it down so while yes being a Hafiz is a thing part of the miracle of Mohammad's revelation was he was allegedly illiterate before being visited by the angel Gabriel and this contact somehow had him writing and he transcribed and revealed the entire Qur'an over a span of time.

Sounds similar to alien abductions where someone comes away knowing things they previously had no knowledge of in the course of a night.

So yes it was orally transmitted but there was an original written version, probably penned by Mohammad himself.
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William Grimshit - Fri, 19 May 2017 19:03:26 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158279 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158271
Well yeah; who decided wtf to put into the bible (besides the guys at Nicaea) or torah? Also why in Allah's name would god choose to reveal everything to an illiterate in a cave? Couldn't he have taught him to read and write at the same time? At least so he would know people were writing down what he said properly?
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Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 19:07:02 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158281 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158279

>Couldn't he have taught him to read and write at the same time?

Well that's the thing, he did, the angel Gabriel taught him to read and write and he wrote down the revelations as they came to him see >>158278
>>
Shit Pockman - Fri, 19 May 2017 19:17:32 EST ID:LK+6jcfe No.158284 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158277


>My understanding of zakhat and jizya, is that there were basically early taxation schemes for a welfare state of sorts.

Well the redpill guy was half right, I made a mistake and jizya is a word in the Qur'an it's just not what he makes it out to be, some kind of save you from the slaughter of unbelievers tax. It's a tax on people defeated in war, where all war that is Islamic, is war waged in self defense ergo you beat someone who attacks you for no reason unprovoked you make them pay for it. Literally. This is obviously something ripe for exploitation by political movements within Muslim cultures where people play around with the principal of aggression or just ignore entirely the parts in Al Baqarah about war only being legitimate in self defense because they aren't in Surah 9 immediately before or after the verse on Jizya. So for the most part, people on both sides, the redpilled /pol/sters and the Muslim extremists will probably ignore Al Baqarah.

>Now, why zakhat is twice jizya? Probably a mix of things. Some might have been general suspicion of outsiders coming into a system. Not wanting them to "take too much."

I don't know. The Jizya is in retaliation for violent attacks on the faithful. It's pretty clear, even in the verse the redpill guy refers to that it's for those people specifically, not just for any outsider.

>Sound familiar fellow Amerifags? FYI, in the US resident aliens have to pay all the taxes, but get zero benefits from things like SS payments, unemployment, etc. You pay for them, but you don't get them. Nothing new there.

A good point and one I weakly tried to make earlier in the thread but to play devil's advocate here for a moment the redpill types usually want to do away with the tax system to a large extent unless I'm out of touch with their current amorphous ideology.

>And, there was probably some legitimate practical reason for the price hike. Especially if non-muslims were exempt from other duties. This could have been seen as a safeguard.

This part and I'm pretty sure of this, the Qur'an has no exact figure on what this tax should be. The Zakat has the nisab which is from Hadiths but not the Qur'an.
>>
Priscilla Surringlock - Sun, 21 May 2017 12:54:21 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158352 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158281
My bad, I honestly didn't know that. I must have been misinformed. Have any of his writing survived until the present day?
>>
Emma Semmleham - Sun, 21 May 2017 14:07:45 EST ID:McxUCEp7 No.158359 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158352 we could assume most of the Qur'an is Muhammad's writing but which parts are and which aren't is a mystery.
>>
Emma Semmleham - Sun, 21 May 2017 14:11:52 EST ID:McxUCEp7 No.158360 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158359 authorship of any heavily revised religious text is a subject of convolution. Scholarly opinion is helpful but it really is a mystery and what was written in those texts burned by muhammad' s successors may be lost to history.
>>
Clara Ferringmin - Wed, 24 May 2017 18:33:51 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158569 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158360
Very true.
Although, what is interesting is that unlike the Bible or the Torah, the Quran had a very short period between the death of Mohammed and it being standardized by Uthman around 650. Uthman actually knew Mohammed, and SPECIFICALLY stated he wanted to clarify the text to avoid well, things like the massive cluster fuck that were the Christian Gospels a century or so after Jesus died.

That said....

There is evidence of some, at least MINOR, textual revisions that existed in Qurans before they were standardized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

Now, what the evidence points to is....

A) A really good suppression of heretical texts by Uthman and his followers around 650AD.

B) The period of time between Uthman and Mohammed was so short, the Quran didn't have time to diverge much for the single known text.

C) All of the above.
>>
Ebenezer Brooklock - Wed, 24 May 2017 19:33:45 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.158571 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158359

>writing
>muhammad
>>
Ebenezer Brooklock - Wed, 24 May 2017 19:36:01 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.158572 Ignore Report Quick Reply
the eternal "self defense" catch 22 jihad is hilarious.
>>
Nathaniel Fiddlewit - Thu, 25 May 2017 05:40:32 EST ID:I/eggQE4 No.158599 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158572
It's self defense until the whole world is muslim, kaffir.
http://boards.420chan.org/n/src/1490279608467.jpg
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 15:41:38 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158627 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158572

How is it any different than the 2nd Amendment huh?
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 15:44:10 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158628 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158571

Yep he knew how to write.

>>158599

Same deal as Zionism, of which there are many supporters and critics, it's the same thing in Islam, many supporters and critics of an Islamic state.
>>
Henry Diblingdodging - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:39:23 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158633 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158569
>SPECIFICALLY stated he wanted to clarify the text to avoid well, things like the massive cluster fuck that were the Christian Gospels a century or so after Jesus died.
Luckily he managed to prevent a major schism and they all lived happily ever after.

Also the hadiths. One would assume that if they'd got the proper word of god written down they wouldn't put so much faith in that one time he left the tent to pee. He was a very do-what-I-say-not-what-I-do(I have reasons) guy in general from what I gather. It's not like the Quran is worse than the old testament or much worse than Paul tbh.
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:41:24 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158634 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158633

I'm having the hardest time understanding your post. Maybe I need a nap but damn what are you even communicating
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:45:25 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158636 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158633

Nvm got it, the hadiths I have my opinion of the hadiths and my opinion is a lot of them are BS.
>>
Henry Diblingdodging - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:47:19 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158638 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158636
They're used to justify a bunch of shit.

Also, don't blame yourself; I'm rather drunk and high.
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:50:13 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158639 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158638

The thing about the hadiths is even if most of them are the sayings of Muhammad he was never supposed to be an example of perfection like Jesus (which is a major point of confusion in East/West understanding) which even a lot of Muslims fuck up, but Muhammad himself deliberately tried to avoid becoming idolized but people did it anyways with the hadiths.

He was speaking prophecy from God and wrote down the messages from God but not everything he said was from God. There was a whole period of time before Gabriel contacted him and Gabriel eventually stopped contacting him.
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:51:04 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158641 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158639

And about Jesus the Qur'an contests the assertion by Christians that he was perfect and God and all that.
>>
Henry Diblingdodging - Thu, 25 May 2017 17:56:41 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158643 Ignore Report Quick Reply
1495749401788.png -(353260B / 344.98KB, 429x551) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>158639
>he was never supposed to be an example of perfection like Jesus
Arguably neither was Jesus. It's hilarious in fact when you consider that people are murdering artists who depict him when his entire point was that he didn't want to be personally worshiped.
Pic related
>"It's hard to be loved by idiots" (Charlie Hebdo)
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 18:05:37 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158649 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158643

It is hilarious. It's sad. Fucked up, stupid world. Stupid, stupid, stupid people.
>>
Henry Diblingdodging - Thu, 25 May 2017 18:23:06 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158653 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158649
>Fucked up, stupid world. Stupid, stupid, stupid people.
Yeah, well, the world is run by people,
>>
Archie Driddlefield - Thu, 25 May 2017 18:36:51 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158656 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158653

>reptilians
>>
Henry Diblingdodging - Thu, 25 May 2017 19:48:59 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158662 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158656
If only...
>>
Alice Hullywater - Thu, 25 May 2017 21:16:16 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158666 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158633
>Luckily he managed to prevent a major schism and they all lived happily ever after.

Meh, at least he tried. It showed some pretty advanced thinking for the time.

Hadiths are problematic. They are sort of a work around to the "Uthman Problem." Once you have a standardized text, how can you cram YOUR own esoteric bullshit down their throat?

HADITHS!

A nice work around to the Absolute Word of God. And it also allows you to claim YOUR Hadiths are correct and the OTHER guy's are WRONG AND BAD AND WE SHOULD KILL KILL KILL!

Shit, no different to what Evangelicals do. They pump out all this media SWEARING that Jesus, the poor dude who went around healing and feeding the poor, somehow would think ObamaCare was an abomination.

I mean, seriously! You can literally read the Bible and see Jesus refuting their beliefs. But, they create their own "Hadiths," in the form of TV shows and books and websites and lobbyists, and convince millions that being a selfish cunt is what Jesus was all about.
>>
Beatrice Meddlechot - Fri, 26 May 2017 00:34:11 EST ID:yCkcRME/ No.158692 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158666

Mm, it comes with the territory which is the struggle of adapting religion to the modern world though, a struggle any religious person has a duty to maintain, some just struggle more than others.
>>
Henry Honeyshit - Fri, 26 May 2017 11:27:08 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158708 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158666
>Meh, at least he tried.
He actually succeeded. He brought a bunch of illiterate raiders and slavers into the 7th century. They even begat an empire that was rather enlightened for it's time. Then everybody remembered Mohammad wanted to bring them into the 7th century and went back to it.
>>
Alice Hullywater - Fri, 26 May 2017 13:36:30 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158711 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158708
This is a good point.

In many ways, Islam was progressive FOR THE TIME. And yeah, there was a lot of good that came out of the Golden Age. Much of the Greek and Roman texts that survived, only survived thanks to Islamic scholars. They were certainly progressive in their willingness to let Jews and Christians live in their own communities under their own laws.

Now, after awhile, that whole Progressive for 623AD thing changed drastically. And Islam did not. Now, we have these idiots who want to go back to the future, so to speak.

Kinda like Trump voters...
>>
Lydia Cimmerspear - Fri, 26 May 2017 17:31:39 EST ID:k6V5TTee No.158719 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158711

There's plenty of Muslims who want to bring it into the 22nd century too, Islam has gone through a lot of reforms and put up with a lot of uncreative types wanting to go back to the way things were.

One of my first Muslim friends, a nurse from the psychiatric hospital I stayed at told me if I am at a mosque and the Imam is saying intolerant, violent things, just leave. You don't have to listen to that. Islam is bigger than the words of some Imams who take a fundamentalist approach to the Qur'an and is certainly bigger than terrorism.

The nurse was also concerned about me being formally labeled as mentally ill and being a Muslim though, so much so they subtly tried to dissuade me from being Muslim which I thought was pretty intolerant of them. I had other Muslim friends who were patients though so I was not worried. You'll find Muslims from all walks of life.
>>
Sidney Greenfoot - Fri, 26 May 2017 18:45:56 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.158722 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158719

leave and maybe inform the police. incitement to violence is illegal in most countries. some mosques have actually been forced to shut down over that, but not nearly enough.
>>
Shit Gubberwater - Fri, 26 May 2017 21:37:36 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158727 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158719
This is very true. I realize now, I worded things poorly. I didn't mean to imply all muslims wanna party like it is 699. Just that there are those whom have stagnated and now see that as the ultimate goal of Islam.

Just like the fucking Jesus lovers in the US. Many of them want a return to "biblical law."
Same mentality. Same shit.
>>
Edwin Dartfuck - Fri, 26 May 2017 23:40:28 EST ID:k6V5TTee No.158730 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158727

I find it's not really religion which separates people, which is an oft-asserted statement you hear from a lot of prominent people and internet philosophers. People are separated by their ability to understand the world. Religion can be used to limit that by those with limited understanding, but see the Gnostics and the Sufis, who both found wisdom in Christianity and Islam, wisdom that helped them understand the world in a more whole way.

Or perhaps, in the true message of religion, people are divided by good and evil and defined by their intentions for the world, whether to unify or divide.
>>
Lydia Tootstone - Sat, 27 May 2017 00:50:06 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.158731 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158730

>Christianity and Islam
>wisdom that helped them understand the world in a more whole way.
>>
Hugh Hacklewill - Sat, 27 May 2017 01:25:48 EST ID:O7R8jdys No.158732 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158730
Religion obfuscates the truth and adds layers of reasons to hate others. The less push the religious person, usually the nicer they are, which means moving further away from religiosity improves the persons demeanor overall. Good people are good people and bad people are bad. But good people do and can support destructive and backwards behaviors and ideas because of religion, turning a good person into an agent of wrongdoings.

Most of them are entrapped into their myopic worldview. Only seeing what their religion wants to show them, and much of them are illusions. There are still problems beyond religion but they are reduced overall as religions create all sorts of confirmation biases and cognitive biases. People are separated by their ability to see the world because of religion in significant ways.
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Edwin Dartfuck - Sat, 27 May 2017 01:58:39 EST ID:k6V5TTee No.158734 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158731

>implyignfgkck

>>158732

>Religion obfuscates the truth and adds layers of reasons to hate others.

I do disagree, I think it tends to espouse intrapersonal truths more than any other kind of truth. I do not mean interpersonal btw; intrapersonal.

>The less push the religious person, usually the nicer they are, which means moving further away from religiosity improves the persons demeanor overall.

Nah, being religious doesn't mean you have to be pushy about it. I won't use myself as an example because that would be tasteless and wrong but Islam tells you not to forcefully convert anyone; that's adopting an ideology that instructs you not to push it (granted a lot of Muslims are uninformed about/disregard that part of the Qur'an but that's human ignorance that's always goin on).

Imagine all the people who do feel compelled to push their ideology, it being very human to want to do so, then adopting an ideology that tells you not to; it's like Buddhism, you don't see too many of those cats proselytizing because it preaches nonviolence and proselytizing tends to lead to aggression.

>Good people are good people and bad people are bad.

No I don't think it is that simple. The nature of good and evil is the pinnacle question of religion and it has struggled to concisely define it, even Islam resorts to a somewhat Zen-like understanding of good and evil if you believe the Sufi interpretation

>But good people do and can support destructive and backwards behaviors and ideas because of religion, turning a good person into an agent of wrongdoings.

Best of intentions and sure religion can bring them there but it is my humble opinion that it is the agents of authority over religion which do this, not religion itself, for personal or political gain. Can this be said about the prophets themselves? It's why they tried to crucify Christ, why Muhammad had to fight the Qur'aysh tooth and nail. Politics.

>Most of them are entrapped into their myopic worldview. Only seeing what their religion wants to show them, and much of them are illusions. There are still problems beyond religion but they are reduced overall as religions create all sorts of confirmation biases and cognitive biases. People are separated by their ability to see the world because of religion in significant ways.

Sure I'll give you that much. I take it you're not a fan of the paranormal though.
>>
Lydia Tootstone - Sat, 27 May 2017 06:04:43 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.158738 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158734

there is no "intrapersonal" truth. there is only the objectively measurable truth and nothing but the objectively measurable truth. there is no "interpretation" of the scientific method.
>>
Molly Pittfuck - Sat, 27 May 2017 12:12:49 EST ID:B7EBVJHu No.158739 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158738
The scientific method literally is a way to come up with interpretations.
There's no objective way to measure truth, all we can do is make models which fit a set of data.
>>
Hugh Hacklewill - Sat, 27 May 2017 12:56:08 EST ID:O7R8jdys No.158740 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158734
>I think it tends to espouse intrapersonal truths

Best received by living life and consuming media of one's choice. Focusing it all on one piece of lit and staking your entire intrapersonal knowledge on it is disastrous for the 'soul'.

>Nah, being religious doesn't mean you have to be pushy about it.

It's built into the fabric of the belief structure. Even if a passage exists that stated "Don't do that", you will be compelled to do it anyway. A good example have been the rise of Islamic apologists on /pol/ and /n/ lately. They do it because they genuinely believe that non-Muslims lives/souls are at stake.

Buddhism has it's own evils and obfuscations along with pseudoscience woo-woo quackery.

>The nature of good and evil is the pinnacle question of religion and it has struggled to concisely define it

Religion has an unchangeable and thus dead philosophy on right and wrong. No room to grow. No room to learn. No room to leave the past behind despite being demonstrably wrong.

>not religion itself

The dogma leads to certain behaviors. The are inexorably linked. It's the reason why people are born and raised hating/mistreating certain groups of people they normally wouldn't had they not been indoctrinated by a solid piece of stone belief system.

>Sure I'll give you that much. I take it you're not a fan of the paranormal though.

Only in works of fiction. :)
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Hugh Hacklewill - Sat, 27 May 2017 14:16:05 EST ID:O7R8jdys No.158742 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158739
More like the data 'fits' or paints the description of what we see and we call a model, and the model adjust if the data changes. The scientific method, especially theories, is the closest thing we have to universal truth.

For example, the model behind natural selection would change if the data changed, but since it never had, we've kept it as a good model to describe what we literally see in nature.

Inductive logic falls way behind science.
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Samuel Duckford - Sat, 27 May 2017 16:25:48 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158748 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158711
Well, to be fair, the whole Mongol thing happened. Still, Muslim high cultures decline seems mostly self-inflicted. Much like Rome tbh. It's amazing how they just decided that science was blasphemy and that all available resources be devoted to enforce their world view.
>Kinda like Trump voters...
The Americans had Muslim level fundies long before then. Most countries actually do in at least a couple of faiths. In America they cause problems but aren't numerous or influential enough to completely fuck shit up which isn't the case in most of the Muslim world. (+ there are all the secular reasons for fail).
>>158719
>There's plenty of Muslims who want to bring it into the 22nd century too
Not enough and those not influential enough. I pity them tbh, those poor open-minded sods, stuck in the middle of a theocracy and considered one of them.
>>
Cedric Nabberson - Sat, 27 May 2017 22:09:29 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158760 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158748
>In America they cause problems but aren't numerous or influential enough to completely fuck shit up

ORLY?
>>
Emma Clinningnetch - Sat, 27 May 2017 23:58:14 EST ID:B7EBVJHu No.158763 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158748
>In America they cause problems but aren't numerous or influential enough to completely fuck shit up
A significant portion of the population doesn't believe in evolution and Kansas helped fund the construction of a big boat in the middle of a plain to prove the bible happened exactly as written.
The head of the department of education is part of a group which believes schools ought to teach faith, and is prepared to reallocate funds from public schools to voucher schools that use textbooks like pic related to do so.
Also, defunding planned parenthood, abstinence-only education, corporations being permitted not to pay for parts of their employees healthcare on religious grounds
>>
Simon Smallridge - Sun, 28 May 2017 05:37:04 EST ID:U9GtNET1 No.158767 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158748
Pretty crazy to imagine the Mongols fucked shit up so badly in the Middle East it still hasn't recovered from it.
>>
Beatrice Dedgemot - Sun, 28 May 2017 14:31:10 EST ID:kwQHbRfQ No.158775 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158760>>158763
Oh come on. You still have a mostly functional industrialized democracy. That you keep electing nutjobs might damage it in the long term but currently the world is shocked because it considers your current situation a departure from the norm.
>>158767
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2011/jan/26/genghis-khan-eco-warrior
Good for the environment though.
>>
Phineas Donderstock - Sun, 28 May 2017 21:31:08 EST ID:MGe9R5O1 No.158792 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158775
We had a democracy.
Trust me. It is gone now. The GOP give zero fucks and Trump is opening working as a vassal to Putin. Mark my words, we could see Trump being a 3 or 4 term president. Only leaving when his fat clogged heart explodes while he is pumping Ivanka full of the dust that passes for his jizz now-a-days.
>>
Clara Piblingsteck - Tue, 30 May 2017 02:16:35 EST ID:B7EBVJHu No.158814 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158813
>Yeah, my old Ford's broken down again
>that's not a Ford, it's an F-150, fucking idiot.
A democratic republic is still a democracy.
>>
Hugh Smallway - Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:10:52 EST ID:Ts+1L7hQ No.158841 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158813
Republic is just another word for representative democracy.

Stop nitpicking. Even though I kinda just did?
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Sophie Tootlock - Thu, 01 Jun 2017 11:22:10 EST ID:H4Md/OEd No.158843 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158813
>democracy and republicanism are mutually exclusive
Fucking idiot, learn some history.
>>
Martin Pipperhood - Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:58:55 EST ID:qetGCKL9 No.158847 Report Quick Reply
>>158792

The US was and on the books at least, is a Representative Republic. Not a Democracy.

Your ignorance is forgivable seeing all the propaganda about "Democracy" and "freedom" being pumped out constantly by the media, advertising, etc. but the truth is the US is closer to an Oligarchy than any other form of government.
>>
Rebecca Honeyson - Sat, 03 Jun 2017 12:42:58 EST ID:SsInJUYa No.158914 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>158847
A representative republic is a form of democracy.

Saying the US is a representative republic but not a democracy is like saying an eagle is a bird but not a vertebrate.
>>
Charlotte Sazzleman - Sun, 04 Jun 2017 12:44:57 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.159004 Ignore Report Quick Reply
bizarre and depressing how so many Americans were straight up happy about "the fact that America isn't a democracy" after Trump lost the popular vote but won the election, first because it shows a gross civic ignorance in what democracy even is, and second more obviously because holy shit, people are actually trying to argue now that democracy is a bad thing.

Americans, man.... Just so dumb.
>>
Nicholas Dashkack - Mon, 05 Jun 2017 19:52:33 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159058 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>muh popular vote
>muh mob rule
>why electoral college?
>this not democracy!!!
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Oliver Savingway - Sun, 11 Jun 2017 21:06:12 EST ID:6onZoPG2 No.159161 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158914
>>158914
>>158914
i disagree actually
it may be there in the name "democratic republic", however not only i practice but on paper as well, the general public really does have very little input as far legislation or even choosing public servants to represent them

can you really call it a representative democracy when the politicians fail (at even attempting) to represent their constituents?

unrelated picture of grapes
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Fuck Mopperchick - Sun, 11 Jun 2017 21:50:20 EST ID:3E+uYiLw No.159162 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159161

>can you really call it a representative democracy when the politicians fail (at even attempting) to represent their constituents?

Nope. Here's Jimmy Carter calling it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/videos/jimmy-carter-u-s-is-an-oligarchy-with-unlimited-political-bribery-20150731
>>
David Sendlefoot - Sun, 11 Jun 2017 21:57:45 EST ID:ojjwPRrO No.159163 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159004
this so hard man. "hooray we're not a democracy" is one of the saddest, most pathetic things to hear from the country's voters.

watch though, if trump gets impeached there will be all this clamor about how it's so unfair and undemocratic. as mentioned above, democracy is only good/bad if does/doesn't get what you want.
>>
Augustus Buggleshit - Sun, 11 Jun 2017 22:12:41 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159164 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>158016

If you mean that Christianity is a dangerous and psychotic cult and that Islam is just as bad or worse, than yes.
>>
Augustus Buggleshit - Sun, 11 Jun 2017 22:13:53 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159165 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159164

Imagine all the psychotic and pathetic doctrines of Christianity, except that Jesus was a salver rapist warlord, and you have Islam.
>>
Nell Dammerway - Sun, 11 Jun 2017 23:31:35 EST ID:O7R8jdys No.159166 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159161
https://youtu.be/5tu32CCA_Ig

Princeton Study: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

Technically we are a Representative Democracy in it's structural design but not in it's end realization.
>>
Martin Cicklehood - Mon, 12 Jun 2017 00:30:06 EST ID:hdTFgBxf No.159168 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159165

you forgot straight up pedophile
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buttkins - Wed, 14 Jun 2017 11:54:11 EST ID:Ra4xIaBC No.159232 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159163
Maybe they get their idea of democracy from the USA and UK therefore being very happy not to be like those guys. nb
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Nigel Bremmercheg - Fri, 16 Jun 2017 17:15:50 EST ID:bhKqbIoX No.159321 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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Look, as someone who doesn't want to be an apologist for any religion, I have a hard time seeing why Islam is intrinsically more fucked up than the other abrahamic faiths. In general most faiths seem they can be practiced multiple ways. The main issue would seem to be that most of the Muslim world is several centuries behind the modern one. Ironically it can also be considered several centuries behind where the Muslim world was several centuries ago. Socially at least.
>>
Martha Gevingdock - Fri, 16 Jun 2017 17:53:53 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159327 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159321

>The main issue would seem to be that most of the Muslim world is several centuries behind the modern one.

bingo. also its doctrines are taken far more seriously than other religions (currently) do. its not just a religion where you sit there and pray to a rock and a warlord pedophile. its a whole political system, it even has a say in economics.
>>
Hamilton Findlehood - Fri, 16 Jun 2017 20:26:51 EST ID:2fJQ/aQA No.159346 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159327
It is an entire system for running a society. Basically, a handbook for setting up your own Sandkipistan. Here are you laws...here is your religion...here is your economic system...here is your sanitary practices and your mating rituals.

The Old Testament is similar, but since it was written over centuries and cobbled together by madmen, it isn't quite the guide that the Koran is. The Koran is basically the "killer app," of religions.
>>
Henry Pevingdock - Sun, 18 Jun 2017 10:57:54 EST ID:WkjT7P7e No.159377 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159346
Most religions are like this. No matter who (or what) the god is it tends to have plenty of opinions on how people should live.
>>
Henry Drapperdatch - Sun, 18 Jun 2017 17:26:57 EST ID:U9GtNET1 No.159383 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159346
Every religion is like that, you fucking retard.

The difference is that Christians already killed off all their nutcase crazies back in the religious wars of the early modern period, chasing all those Jesus cocksucking maniacs into either the grave or the USA.
>>
Cyril Blumbledock - Sun, 18 Jun 2017 18:43:00 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159384 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159377
>>159383

hurr durr muh kneejerk false equivalence rather than addressing the issue at hand.
>>
Walter Blovingbedge - Mon, 19 Jun 2017 00:24:10 EST ID:Il6+YHGF No.159389 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159383
>>Every religion is like that
No they're not. Yes, the three sand demon cults are like that, but they all evolved from the same belief so it makes sense they share those properties. Many religions couldn't care less about how society is set up or prescribing behaviors for people.
>>chasing all those Jesus cocksucking maniacs into either the grave or the USA.
Like the Christian militias that run rampant in sub-saharan Africa? They seem both alive and not in the USA to me.
>>
Cedric Snodbury - Mon, 19 Jun 2017 03:46:04 EST ID:zuKNU2sA No.159391 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159389
Hinduism strictly enforces an unfair caste system, and if you're lower in the caste that's because you were shit in a previous life. Oh you don't remember that previous life and you're a good person now? Well fuck you anyways broke ass piece of shit that's karma bitch. In the more conservative parts of Asia, Buddhism demands an absurd level of filial piety no matter how abusive shitty your parent/elder is. Part of that comes from Confucianism but that shit is basically a religion in itself.

Obviously that's not the whole of those religions, but every popular religion demands some sort of control over your life. you should be able to choose the philosophical bits you like and ignore the garbage bits. nobody is willing to admit that something in their multi-century old books could possibly be wrong or bad, and implying such is "blasphemous" or "insensitive".
>>
Eugene Drambleson - Mon, 19 Jun 2017 04:20:10 EST ID:lWlEy1EO No.159395 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159391
>you should be able to choose the philosophical bits you like and ignore the garbage bits

You totally can though?
Most people in developing nations don't because of cultural and social pressure, and sometimes laws. But that goes for a lot of shitty practices in those countries, not just religious ones.
>>
Walter Blovingbedge - Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:38:05 EST ID:Il6+YHGF No.159420 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159391
So, we learn that religion can be used as a method of controlling a populace, that it's probably more effective than a political ideology as a way of controlling a society, and thus big states take a pre-existing religion and modify it to serve their need for control. Like the modifications Ashoka made to Buddhism to be able to use it to justify a campaign of conquest. Likewise, the depiction of the varnas in the Vedas is very ambiguous and brief, but when Hindu aristocracy realized it could be used to justify social inequality to the lower classes, they modified and hyped up that aspect.
Any religion can be co-opted to serve a political purpose. The difference with the Abrahamic religions (well, except for isolated aspects) is that their primary function was as social and political instruments from the outset. The Torah took the already existing polytheistic religion of Canaan and made one god the only god, to justify tribal conquest. While Jesus personally may have had some grander vision, his immediate followers decided to use Christianity as a tool against Roman rule, and then later, as a way to prolong Roman rule. Mohammed, of course, expressly and directly took political action based on his religion.
>>
Nell Nanderdodging - Mon, 19 Jun 2017 17:17:18 EST ID:ppfuzu9/ No.159425 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159384
How is it knee-jerk or a false equivalence? In Myanmar there are fucking Buddhists ethnically cleansing Muslims. I'm not impressed by this sympathy competition between various collections and interpretations of bronze-age myths. I don't even mean to even single out religion; the guy who named the opiate of the masses created a pretty good drug himself. also ect. ect. There are tons of examples throughout history of 'tards doing stupid shit in the name of pretty much whatever dogma you can imagine. The idea that Islam is somehow unique in this doesn't hold water. That Islam is now the mix of the largest and most fertile ground for extremism, when viewed in a historical context, suggests that it's more likely to be the condition of much of the Muslim world that is to blame.
>>
David Clucklenere - Tue, 20 Jun 2017 03:31:36 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159454 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159321

Because Muhammad lived in the full light of history and was a slaver rapist warlord?

Because Islam is based around the legal system he used to oppress the Arabs and maintain power?

Imagine everything fucked up about Christianity except instead of Jesus as a homeless pacifist cultist he was a warlord who ordered people to be killed in front of him, had many slave brides, and led armies / sacked cities.
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Simon Blidgeridge - Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:14:04 EST ID:Il6+YHGF No.159477 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159454
Ok, but what all the anti-Islam people don't seem to get is that singling out Islam puts you into a rhetorical position of 'us vs them' where you will have to defend targeting Islam over other religions, which will put you in the position of having to defend Christianity and/or Judaism, which will lead to accusations of racism, xenophobia and imperialism.

If you really have a problem with religions as such, just target the whole thing, chop down the tree at the root, and you will be immune to such criticisms from people who otherwise might agree with you (and just have to deal with the ones you would anyway, from apologists who will claim anything to preserve their religion.)
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Hannah Mallerchat - Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:45:14 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159500 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159477

If my rhetorical stance is compatible with the genocide of all minorities that Muslims undertake globally, than the problem is in the brains of those making the comparison.

I am actively against the poisoned moralism of Christianity and the vicious race-nationalism of Judaism, but am keenly aware that one religion is far worse and is actively devouring the minority communities inside of it, even in the west.
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Cornelius Brerrybudging - Wed, 21 Jun 2017 22:02:10 EST ID:hdTFgBxf No.159509 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159477

spare me the sob stories about ancient times past, in the current age, only one religion is directly responsible for the cold blooded murder of thousands of civilians, and holding scores of millions oppressed under ignorance, illiteracy, and terror.
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Hugh Clessleham - Wed, 21 Jun 2017 23:38:40 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159510 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159509

but what about the jews, they are scheming world domination in far more subtle, far more effective means. 2 elephants in the room but one is freaking out right now and needs to be put down.
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Basil Shakewell - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 04:38:24 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159511 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159510

"the jews" never did anything.

Right now at this very moment an atheist is being beheaded by a Muslim.
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Cornelius Brerrybudging - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:04:18 EST ID:hdTFgBxf No.159516 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159511

palestine would like a word with you
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Charles Buncocke - Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:48:07 EST ID:Il6+YHGF No.159530 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159516
What, the Palestine that was divided up by Allied powers? Jews have been calling for Zionism for about 2,000 years, and sensibly nothing came of it, then the Western powers force it to happen (so they can have an eternal excuse to intervene in oil-topia) and, shocker, everything goes to shit. How were the 'Jews' responsible for decisions that were made by wholly gentile Allied diplomats and policymakers?

The two elephants in the room you're squabbling over are both merely shadows of the one actual elephant you don't want to face or acknowledge exists...
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Molly Subberdock - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 00:56:16 EST ID:FIobEyAg No.159535 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159530
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Betsy Grandbanks - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 02:15:51 EST ID:X1sYo0vS No.159536 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159511
They killed Jesus
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Frederick Goodson - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 02:23:27 EST ID:XifYDRJi No.159537 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159530
>implying the west isn't run by zionists. (So was the Soviet union at the time, communism is a jewish invention after all)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kQjipXVuBg
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Alice Gurrywag - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 02:47:18 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159541 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159536

Judaism, like any other Abrahamic religion, is fucking poison. And it is poison for specific theological reasons.

Christianity is far worse, and Islam is the worst of all.
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Matilda Tillinghood - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 06:19:17 EST ID:U9GtNET1 No.159542 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159541
Pretty sure Christianity is the worst of them all, because Christians actually affect the lives of me and my friends with their bullshit.

In my entire life, I've only run into one batshit insane muslim talking about how evolution is fake.

The amount of batshit insane christians talking about evolution is fake that I've met... that number must be in the hundreds.

Nevermind that Christians will keep trying to do their retarded evangelization shit, and hold protests near heavy metal and tekno gigs.
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C-Higgy !lfsExjBfzE - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:27:28 EST ID:e2znDeVE No.159544 Report Quick Reply
As someone that has a Muslim friend from Indonesia, the religious situation there is tense and while the government does recognize six different religions, obviously the Muslim majority is going to rule the roost. It's an unfortunate situation but talking about the Koran like that is not going to do you any favors. Pancasila my ass.
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Lydia Himbleham - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 13:41:13 EST ID:65w9aHl1 No.159547 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159542
Pretty much a case of proximity. Im an arab living in saudi and you wont believe the kind of batshit crazy i have to deal with in a daily basis. Sorry habibi but abrahamic religions are all shit.
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Beatrice Chummerwell - Fri, 23 Jun 2017 20:34:32 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159553 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159542

>reality is defined by my personal anecdotes
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David Blatherham - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 03:45:19 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159557 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159542

Christianity 600 years ago was the worst. Now it is only second, due to reform and the fact that the concept of exclusivity of salvation is a literal cancer upon the minds of its followers.

Islam is a gay killing, woman hating, anti-femenist, anti-free thought warlord rapist cult patriachy.
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Hedda Niffinghall - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:02:17 EST ID:9+TTixq6 No.159560 Ignore Report Quick Reply
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>>159542
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David Blatherham - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:20:21 EST ID:Fmcl6sNv No.159566 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159560


The cold, hard evidence speaks for itself.
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Ian Bardworth - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 19:47:27 EST ID:aH24pX5g No.159574 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159566
That most terrorism is unknown?
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Beatrice Chummerwell - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 19:51:05 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159575 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159574

that the vast majority of religious extremism is islamic. "unknown" must be cases that couldnt be directly linked to ideology or organization.
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Ian Babberfotch - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:03:25 EST ID:aH24pX5g No.159576 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159575
Yeah, which means no concrete statement CAN be made because the the biggest chunk is unknown motives.
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Oliver Gadgeworth - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:07:28 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159577 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159576

>no concrete statement CAN be made
>the vast majority of religious extremism is islamic.
>another percentage is not evidently linked to ideology, most likely consists of "lone wolf" and "unabomber" types

im not understanding your difficulty. those are concrete conclusions.
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Ian Babberfotch - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:30:46 EST ID:aH24pX5g No.159578 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159577
>another percentage is not evidently linked to ideology, most likely consists of "lone wolf" and "unabomber" types

Thats an assumption. Those unknowns could be for other religions (or anything else) You are making big statements on information that does not justify it.
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Oliver Gadgeworth - Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:38:35 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159579 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159578

its a reasonable assumption until you have opposing data to prove it wrong.
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Esther Blepperspear - Sun, 25 Jun 2017 01:10:55 EST ID:cN3ZaEsT No.159580 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159579
>Its a reasonable assumption

It really isnt.
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Oliver Gadgeworth - Sun, 25 Jun 2017 01:37:50 EST ID:BBx/FHRi No.159581 Ignore Report Quick Reply
>>159580

oh so you just want to be a contrarian and not elaborate. ok ill play that game.

yes, it is.
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Ian Babberfotch - Sun, 25 Jun 2017 02:25:08 EST ID:aH24pX5g No.159582 Ignore Report Quick Reply
Just hide the thread, ain't nothing useful here. Just trolls trolling trolls.


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