Leave these fields empty (spam trap):
Name
You can leave this blank to post anonymously, or you can create a Tripcode by using the format Name#Password
Comment
[i]Italic Text[/i]
[b]Bold Text[/b]
[spoiler]Spoiler Text[/spoiler]
>Highlight/Quote Text
[pre]Preformatted & Monospace Text[/pre]
[super]Superset Text[/super]
[sub]Subset Text[/sub]
1. Numbered lists become ordered lists
* Bulleted lists become unordered lists
File

Sandwich


Discord Now Fully Linked With 420chan IRC

Race: Harris, Pinker, Murray et al vs. Klein, Turkheimer, Harden et al

Reply
- Fri, 20 Apr 2018 02:04:12 EST GM3Biux6 No.209133
File: 1524204252461.jpg -(173373B / 169.31KB, 1280x720) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. Race: Harris, Pinker,  Murray et al vs. Klein, Turkheimer, Harden et al
I'm going to start this out with a call to extreme discretion when it comes to the subject matter, its underlying data, and its implications. I would prefer those who are genetic reductionists- or even more troublesome 'racial' essentialists, and those who are environmental reductionists to reconsider posting here. Here is a timeline, just to give some context (the timeline, or the he-said:she-said drama, is not what is important here, but it's necessary to get it out of the way first).
>September 1994:
Murray and Herrnstein publish The Bell Curve; Hernnstein dies shortly thereafter
>April 2017:
Harris interviews Murray on Harris' Waking Up podcast, in an episode titled 'Forbidden Knowledge'. One of the topics discussed was the lack of due diligence practiced by some critics of The Bell Curve
>May 2017:
Turkheimer, Harden, and Nisbett release an OpEd on Vox titled 'Charles Murray is once again peddling junk science about race and IQ' and subheaded 'Podcaster and author Sam Harris is the latest to fall for it', critical of the podcast between Harris and Murray
>March 2018:
Klein releases an article on Vox titled 'Sam Harris, Charles Murray, and the allure of race science', and subheaded 'This is not “forbidden knowledge.” It is America’s most ancient justification for bigotry and racial inequality'
>April 2018:
Harris discusses with Klein on Harris' Waking Up podcast, in an episode titled 'Identity & Honesty'
>Peppered throughout this debacle
Pinker peppered his support for Harris
>Topics for discussion:
What did Harris, Murray, and/or Pinker get right?
What did Harris, Murray, and/or Pinker get wrong?
What did Harris, Murray, and/or Pinker neglect to mention that would have aided his/their claims?
What did Harris, Murray, and/or Pinker omit that would have detrimented his/their claims?
What did Klein and/or Turkheimer, Harden, and Nisbett get right?
What did Klein and/or Turkheimer, Harden, and Nisbett get wrong?
What didKlein and/or Turkheimer, Harden, and Nisbett neglect to mention that would have aided his/their claims?
What did Klein and/or Turkheimer, Harden, and Nisbett omit that would have detrimented his/their claims?
>>
Fanny Weshhall - Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:24:33 EST Nwy2IF3I No.209134 Reply
1524219873147.jpg -(48425B / 47.29KB, 700x467) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Well let's consider the statement by Klein saying "race science is a justification for racial inequity".

This statement has many underlying assumptions. The first assumption is that giving people knowledge needs to lead to an equitable outcome. So Klein is implying that "If the ideas in Bell curve are accurate and that knowledge is used to discriminate against people of a different race, then it is unethical to publish that information".

Sam Harris, being a scientific and rational thinker, would reject such a statement because his underlying principals is to know knowledge regardless of how the populace chooses to apply it.

This leads to conflict between 2 worlds of people. 1 world who believes all things should be known regardless of how such knowledge is used. And another world of people who believe ideas should be repressed if they are used unethically. Ironically Klein is also implying that Sam Harris is racist because he can't wrap his mind around Sam Harris's viewpoint about knowing knowledge and confuses himself because he believes Sam only wants to know about the bell curve because he is racist.

This controversy is just the result of a lot of people shouting and refusing to be open minded enough to see each others points of view realistically, leading to a distortion and straw-manning of each others worldviews.
>>
Lillian Hacklekod - Fri, 20 Apr 2018 09:53:04 EST bz58Upde No.209135 Reply
1/3 of the threads on the front page of this board are about race. Enough.
>>
Charlotte Nungershaw - Fri, 20 Apr 2018 21:56:06 EST GM3Biux6 No.209136 Reply
1524275766471.jpg -(29475B / 28.78KB, 640x255) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>209134
Excellent points. I'll highlight what I thought was germane to your post:
>1 world who believes all things should be known regardless of how such knowledge is used. And another world of people who believe ideas should be repressed if they are used unethically.

Harris seems to come from the tradition of English Liberalism/The Enlightenment (Mills et al.) Get the data first, sift out what is junk, analyze it, form models upon it, and test the models against each other and reality. Then and only then may moral frameworks be set up from all that (a la The Moral Landscape).

Klein, on the other hand, has a moral basis in mind when it comes to data accumulation, data analysis, and data dissemination. To him, it seems worth it due to the incendiary nature of the subject matter, but people such as Harris (and myself for that matter) are flabbergasted. How could Klein et al morally dismiss or dampen knowledge on a subject without sufficient knowledge from it? And how could he get sufficient knowledge of it if he morally dismisses or dampens key components?

This goes right back to the Peterson-Harris debate, where Harris deconstructed Peterson's true:correct dichotomy through various scenarios (e.g. the cheating spouse). Klein, however, seems to be even more devious than Peterson. Instead of ceding ground that these models may be correct, but not 'true', he waffles back and forth on whether or not they are correct and in which areas they may be correct or erroneous.
>>
Charlotte Nungershaw - Fri, 20 Apr 2018 21:57:26 EST GM3Biux6 No.209137 Reply
>>209135
WADR, I checked each and every page on this board before making this post, and none of the threads seemed to be discussing this topic cogently, especially through the lens of Harris et al vs Klein et al nobump

Report Post
Reason
Note
Please be descriptive with report notes,
this helps staff resolve issues quicker.