/psy/ Psychedelic Discussion
>the people who have big, life changing revelations on psychedelics are those who are (or were) incapable of introspection whilst sober, similar to how talking therapies help by getting people to put what they're feeling into words, where they may not have done so before>if something is only impactful when you take psychedelic drugs, it probably isn't actually that deep or meaningful >psychedelics are an interesting and fun way of exploring the chemical mechanisms and processes of the human brain and their relation feeling; there is nothing spiritual about it at all, merely intense and confusing emotional responses, which leads the user to attribute the experience to some otherworldly phenomenon discuss
>the people who have big, life changing revelations on psychedelics are those who are (or were) incapable of introspection whilst sober, similar to how talking therapies help by getting people to put what they're feeling into words, where they may not have done so before>if something is only impactful when you take psychedelic drugs, it probably isn't actually that deep or meaningful >psychedelics are an interesting and fun way of exploring the chemical mechanisms and processes of the human brain and their relation feeling; there is nothing spiritual about it at all, merely intense and confusing emotional responses, which leads the user to attribute the experience to some otherworldly phenomenon
>>889431If ever in doubt remember, aldous huxley experienced god in the folding of his pant leg when he was sitting down.
>>889431does the spirit even real OP? if so then what is it? just let loose terms be loose and don't shit on subjectivity please.
>>889431I agree, OP. Especially your first point. The "epiphanies" people have on psychedelics are 99% of the time shit that's pretty obvious if you just sit down and think while sober. I think some people's psychological defense mechanisms are stronger than others' and those people are more likely to unconsciously hide unpleasant truths from themselves, which they can no longer do when psychedelics suppress their egos.I see psychedelics similarly to how you do. I think it's an amazing way to peek under the hood and admire the inner workings of the brain. I dislike how there's an entire subculture of nutjobs who think psychedelics are some conscious entity exposing them to the ultimate truths of life and existence. It's funny because those same nutjobs are usually self-proclaimed skeptics in their normal life and will as a rule of thumb be into all sorts of conspiracy theories but they will never turn their skepticism towards their psychedelic experiences.
>>889440well just summed up this whole board in one post, gz
>>889431Psychedelics taught me that op is projecting hardcore like a mother fucker.Psychedelics don't show YOU anything meaningful or impacting. THAT much is obvious ;)
>the people who have big, life changing revelations on psychedelics are those who are (or were) incapable of introspection whilst sober,If anything, it's the reverse. A delicious meal requires a good cook, skill and the right ingredients. So can valuable insights be gained only by knowledge that builds them. >if something is only impactful when you take psychedelic drugs, it probably isn't actually that deep or meaningful You just described a tautology or what? Psychadelic experiences that are meaningful, remain meaningful and those that aren't are simply forgotten. That's just how things are in life generally. Not all our experiences have to be meaningful. Why should they be?>psychedelics are an interesting way of exploring the chemical mechanisms and processes of the human brain and their relation feeling; there is nothing spiritual about it at allSo what then would be spiritual? Meditation? Mountain retreat? Hermeticism? Monastic isolation? What gives you an authority to declare some things as a spiritual experiences and others as not? Unless you're denouncing all spirituality in which case I could only #tipmyfedora to you fellow hedonistic atheist.
>the people who have big, life changing revelations on psychedelics are those who are (or were) incapable of introspection whilst sober,
>if something is only impactful when you take psychedelic drugs, it probably isn't actually that deep or meaningful
>psychedelics are an interesting way of exploring the chemical mechanisms and processes of the human brain and their relation feeling; there is nothing spiritual about it at all
>>889454sounds like OPs post offended you in some way; if i had to guess it's because what they said hit a little too close to home for you. don't take it so personally, lol>>889455>If anything, it's the reverse. I don't really think what the OP was saying really sunk in for you or something. if somebody is capable of in-depth introspection or the kinds of thoughts and concepts that take place while tripping, then it follows that there wouldn't be any big or life changing revelations they could really experience from tripping.Certainly a good degree of introspection and healthy capability for deep and trippy thoughts is required in order to have any kind of big or life changing revelations from tripping at all, but that's only the case up until a certain point. likewise, an inability or lack of a tendency for deep thought or introspection will likely stunt a trippers ability to experience highly singificant, profound, and meaningful insights or revelations while tripping.So, while I get what you're saying to a point, I feel like you didn't take the message OP was conveying to a full enough extent if you find that you disagree with him.All that said, I'm sure it's fairly obvious that I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.
>If anything, it's the reverse.
>>889470Ain't nothing personal to it, bubsy. Op fancies themselves to explain other people's experiences for them, which is plainly outright bollocks.Unless of course you actually believe they know what everybody else has experienced.
>>889471They're literally disclaiming thousands upon thousands of years of culture spanning civilizations.
>>889470Read this portion of their OP again>If it is only impactful when you take psychedelics, it probably isn't that deep or meaningFor one, it is well documented that psychedelic substances induce life-changing experiences.For two, ANYTHING, ever, is only impacting or meaningful when you experience it. That's very basis of experiential being.I think the op is just miffed they haven't been able to coax a meaningful experience out of their hallucinogen use.
>If it is only impactful when you take psychedelics, it probably isn't that deep or meaning
>>889473Now, quite honestly it has been my experience that the less intellectually gifted a person is, the more trouble they have understanding the actual trip, and are unable to take anything meaningful out of it other than a jumbled mess of swirling colors and racing thoughts.Me? I've never taking a psychedelic before.
>>889471At this point it sounds to me like you aren't actually understanding what the OP is saying then. He's not really saying shit about their experiences so much as making a statement about what their experiences imply about them and the way they think. It's not even said in a way that's derogatory or condescending--he hasn't stated anything about what any of that means about them as a person. Any perceived condescension or anything like that is 100% on the reader's end. Just as a hypothetical, let's imagine the buddhist monks that are capable of such deep meditation that they can slow their heart rate and slow their metabolism take a psychedelic. Do you really think they are going to realize anything great beyond what they've already come to understand about reality? At least great enough to change their lives? I wouldn't really imagine so. That's not to say that they can't, but it just doesn't strike me as being terribly likely.
>>889474>Now, quite honestly it has been my experience that >Me? I've never taking a psychedelic before.You pretty much just negated everything you said right there. You've almost entirely negated your opinion on the entire subject as a whole, really. Besides, for somebody so upset about OP disclaiming the experiences of others, your entire last post is an example of you doing exactly that. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to tell OP he's wrong when you haven't even taken a psy before, or when you're so quick to dismiss everything he's said because you believe he's "less intellectually gifted" without anything other than your own bias supporting that idea?
>Now, quite honestly it has been my experience that >Me? I've never taking a psychedelic before.
I mean, you're totally entitled to your opinion dude, but try and be a little more open minded about what he's actually saying instead of just claiming he's stupid or not very bright so that's why he's come to this hypothesis. I mean, at least the OP just claimed it was a few hypotheses of theirs. You're flat out just telling OP why he thinks what he does and that he's wrong. At least fuckin entertain the idea that he might have a point with what he's said... at the very least because you haven't even taken a psychedelic before yourself. That should make you question your opinion enough on its own.
I.... I TROLLLLLLL
>>889431Well, according to experiments with psilocybin/psilocin, when the subjects were reminded they had hallucinations, the usual response was: I don't care what you believe, what I experienced is real.I too experienced very real connection. I know that can be just a play of my neurochemistry excited by a better molecule than serotonin, however I felt it. As Jim Carrey have said: Before I was a human observing the universe, now I am the universe observing a human. I didn't have a breakthrough dose, I felt the universe and knew that this organic chemistry is universe's way to experience itself. It was very real, very intimate, and it's one of the most important moments of my life.
>>889481> when the subjects were reminded they had hallucinations, the usual response was: I don't care what you believe, what I experienced is real.well, this pretty much illustrates his point and the validity of it, really. a lack of serious and in-depth introspection while sober would wind up causing pretty much exactly this perception. the perception that it was real itself isn't wrong per se, but only insofar as our perceptual and sensory experiences are in fact real; whether or not they accurately reflect the nature and current state of our reality is another matter entirely. unfortunately, this is the fact that's often overlooked and the source of the confusion that naturally comes with the ambiguity of the statement and belief that "what I experienced was real." The statement itself on its own is but a half truth, owing to the limitations of spoken language (which extends to conscious understandings of our thoughts and interpretations of perceived sensations and experiences).Even the statement that the experience doesn't accurately reflect our reality is in itself is only true depending on the intended meaning behind it. I mean, what is reality anyway? Despite any answer to that question made with certainty is fundamentally going to be false and the concept itself becomes more and more incomprehensible the greater in detail you consider it, it cannot be ignored that one's experience during a trip is entirely incongruent with the collective experience of those we share the world with. I mean, we (typically) have no qualms acknowledging that our dreams aren't real in the sense that the experiences we have in them are something that took place in the overall broader existence we all inhabit. For good reason too, considering we can observe others sleeping and even observe recordings of ourselves sleeping, and instances of dream walking demonstrate quite clearly the experience of the dreamer does not align with the physical reality/existence taking place in their surroundings.The trips may indeed be real experiences that offer us perceptions of other, otherwise not experienced aspects of our reality as conscious beings (which very much includes our internal realities), but where the boundary lies warrants close inspection and analysis. This actually just further supports OPs hypoetheses, because anybody who lacks nuance in their view on the experience and reality (which wouldn't exist given enough introspection and deep thinking/consideration of reality when sober) will ambiguously make the claim that what they experienced was real, just as you said. The "realness" of that experience is a result of its powerful meaning and profundity, and naturally is going to represent a significant revelation/insight into one's reality and life experience such that it would be considered life changing.
> when the subjects were reminded they had hallucinations, the usual response was: I don't care what you believe, what I experienced is real.
>>889470>there wouldn't be any big or life changing revelations they could really experience from tripping.It wouldn't hurt to know a bit how psychedelics work. In sense that is relevant to this thread, they among other things transform the neural connections by connecting parts of the brain that are not usually in communication with each other. This often shifts users to perceive their thoughts in a different perspective, thinking outside the box critically or creatively. There are already experiments that have been studying that since the 60s and owards. This in a sense applies to more common revelations or an »eureka« moments as well. There is never any divine intervention involved or things like that. Only applying all experiences and knowledge in a novel and profoundly different way can do that. What you remind me of are exactly the people you complain about AFTER they've got their »calling« or revelation, because you all seem to be stuck in this mindset that anything other than your own philosophy simply cannot be of any relevance to anyone let alone to the rest of the society because you regard it as vapid and that's as far as you all are willing to go. If you're stuck in your own patterns of introspection that lead you to believe you've »got it figured all out« and that any re-coding of information will only produce meaningless insights, then you simply aren't curious or inventive enough. Don't worry, you don't have to be, but other people will be.Oh and by the way...>I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.You pretty much are the OP himself. What's the point in pretending dude? I just trapped you because instead of summarizing, you elaborated yourself. I can also recognize your »highschool english assignment« writing style because its not very common on a low-volume board like this, let alone in the same thread and in a complete agreement with »one another«. How fucking convenient eh...
>there wouldn't be any big or life changing revelations they could really experience from tripping.
>I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.
>>889484>our dreams aren't real in the sense that the experiences we have in them are something that took placein the sense that the experiences we have in them AREN'T***
>our dreams aren't real in the sense that the experiences we have in them are something that took place
>>889485im not op, but yeah i suppose i might as well be. my english assignment writing style is a result of being stimmed the fuck out, can't speak for OP though. btw i more or less stated i agreed with you, at least on one point. I just felt like you didn't take the idea far enough, so you while you were technically correct about your point, the conclusion you came to about it was only part of the whole conclusion that you otherwise would've come to.also, it's not that i believe my thoughts and introspection about everything are totally correct and that ive got everything all figured out, it's that my expectations toward my reality and the conclusions i might come to about it are so non-existent/open that any insights or revelations i do wind up receiving from a trip, or indeed, any experience, aren't capable of annihilating my current world view or shattering my current thought paradigm. I treat basically everything i feel like i believe or have come to understand with great aloofness. i am capable of seriously entertaining various concepts without treting them as certainties, because doing so means the kind of mental stagnation that leads to more bias and bull-headed assumptions than i'm comfortable with.im not saying by any means that trips shouldn't be capable of producing any kind of significant meaning or insight (which, the OP doesn't appear to be either considering his statement "if something is only impactful when you take psychedelic drugs, it probably isn't actually that deep or meaningful") even when somebody is prone to deep sober introspection on a regular basis. im just agreeing with OP that it's likely not going to be all that big or life changing, because those are just emotional reactions and beliefs about one's past experience. and, if you're the kind of person who thinks about the nature of reality all the time even outside of tripping, then chances are the revelations and insights you get from tripping aren't likely going to seem all that life changing because you wind up just covering the same general ground as you already have, even if it IS in infinitely greater detail. it's natural for things to start feeling like second nature when you've had plenty of exposure to them (like how driving or having sex seemed like a big deal until it wasn't new anymore).
>>889487>i am capable of seriously entertaining various concepts without treting them as certainties, because doing so means the kind of mental stagnation that leads to more bias and bull-headed assumptions than i'm comfortable with.meant to add another statement explaining that even though i am capable of that, i still treat everything ive come to know as potentially wrong and even more than likely wrong at least in a few ways (and certainly, incomplete).
>i am capable of seriously entertaining various concepts without treting them as certainties, because doing so means the kind of mental stagnation that leads to more bias and bull-headed assumptions than i'm comfortable with.
>>889484Of course your skepticism is correct, we cannot ever position ourselves firmly to the benefit of any truth, for it is truth only until it is replaced by new findings. Yet the experiences are real and carry life-changing qualities so whether the consciousness of this universe exists or not may be something you want to have empirical evidence for, the consistency of concepts created (created as in lets assume we are complete skeptics and ascribe only fantasy qualities to psilocybin/psilocin) within neural networks altered by mushrooms produce real life impact by altering said neural networks. The experiences are real at least as much as Jesus Christ is real, if not more.I personally find myself in a duality, on one hand I am a skeptic and tip fedora atheist, on the other hand I felt something very real while tripping on mushrooms and I didn't even have breakthrough dose. I realize what I felt can be just a fabrication of my organic chemistry, but that doesn't matter to me anymore. I understand your tastes incline more rationality to the train of thought and I was the same before experiencing the plant teacher.
>>889503Nah dont misunderstand man, i know i suck at explaining myself. When i said that its true that what you experienced was real, i meant it. Even if your subjective experience is demonstrably significantly incongruent with everybody elses, the fact is that our perceptual experience is ALWAYS the result of the minds "fabrication" of the reality we experience. Because the brain must always be constructing a model of our reality in order for us to perceive anything at all and in at least a semicoherent matter, when determinig what experiences of ours are "real" or fabrications/illusion, the truth is that theyre all simply as equally real as one another. The dxperience ypu had on shrooms WAS real and can be considered and analyzed meaningfully to the same extent you do any other experience of yours. Its just important to bear in mind that despite all that, the experience you had while tripping came about because of highly abnormal patterns of brain waves and neural oscillations that occur during profoundly altered states of consciousness. So the experience was significant and real, but that doesnt mean that everything you experienced was as it seemed (like wherenutters like goacid go on about hyperspace and shit like theyre certain of the exact nature of everything they experienced)
>>889505>Even if your subjective experience is demonstrably significantly incongruent with everybody elsesWhat is the common theme occuring with mushrooms? Genuinely curious, are there any studies on this?I understand your restraint and the reality check nature of your post, it's always nice to remind people that these are just powerful hallucinations and their realness of mind can help one change his personality and improve himself but the realism doesn't extend itself beyond the subjective mind. I used to be strictly evidence based (working in operating room didn't help it either) but I have to pause and consider the reality of nature after my trips and while you are inclined towards the rational I must admit that I just don't know the answer.
>Even if your subjective experience is demonstrably significantly incongruent with everybody elses
>>889505> I understand your tastes incline more rationality to the train of thought and I was the same before experiencing the plant teacher.well, even if im failing somewhat, i strive for a healthy balance between a rationality and purely analytical "objective" logic based thought process and perspective and the sensations and perceptions of our experience... or to at least integrate the two into a more complete and cohesive perspective on reality.A worldview of scientific reductivism that revolves around cold, hard facts and logic is one that willingly divorces itself from an extremely significant, dense portion of the informstion available to us and of the human experience. The irrational is what drives us at the most fundamental level. Ignoring that information or cutting yourself off from it entirely on purpose only amounts to you willingly choosing to close your mind to certain aspects of reality and committing to working with a fundamentally incompletely picture for some foolish reason.Conversely, the opposite is true as well. When too much weight is given to experience, you wind up with people who unquestioningly believe what happens during their trips, usually making statements like "I know what I saw/experienced" like their recollection of it is somehow beyond the ridiculous level of fallibility inherent to that kind of shit.
> I understand your tastes incline more rationality to the train of thought and I was the same before experiencing the plant teacher.
>>889508well my acknowledgement of how the drugs affect brain function isn't something i'm doing with any sense of finality. im just saying it's a case where you have to consider that fact and give it the weight it's due for consideration given everything.that said, i always reserve the right to tell the rational explanation to fuck off when i choose to. i've had a few experiences that have made me do that. but, because im not coming to any kind of conclusion about anything either way, i often wind up holding opposing beliefs simultaneously but without any of the cognitive dissonance. since i dont know either way about fuckin anything, period, it's okay for me to recognize there's likely a rational explanation for things and to believe what I experienced is actually possibly true. a good example is a trip i had on megadoses of 3-meo-pcp and DPT, where I could swear to god that I had experienced that exact set of events before I was ever born and after I die an infinite number of times. I actually received a life-lesson/advice message during it from that came from my father that guided and directed the course of the trip. It didn't literally come from my dad, it was as if I was told what I heard before I was born and it was something that awakened and I recalled. The entirety of the experience wound up feeling like a very familiar microcosm I'd always known whether I was aware of or not, all on its own. Experiencing reality as though it were all scripted and predetermined, like the most interactive and sensory stimulating three dimensional, physical movie or video game or something. Everything that I experienced was meant to happen and would forever keep on happening. Now, I don't just blithely write off the experience because there's a rational explanation behind it. the experience itself, perceied as the real truth was worth something and so is valuable to me. Considering how real the experience was, I'm definitely not sure what's actually the case either, but I do know that I'm not going to wind up telling everybody that what I experienced was every bit as much the truth as I felt it was during the experience. since there actally is a rational explanation available and my life's experience has proven well enough to me that it's usually the case. when I wind up sharing such experiences I make sure not to publicly claim that what I experienced was the truth, or that and to give the rational explanation its due investigation as well, becuase ultimately im interested in uncovering what the truth actually is to the best of my ability. avenues unexplored are paths that help form the way toward the truth when pieced together that I've missed or haven't yet taken. choosing to avoid certain avenues or to take a few in particular only would be antithetical to the pursuit of the truth
>>889487> I just felt like you didn't take the idea far enoughYou describe your experiences so broadly that you shouldn't be surprised if somone doesn't exactly pinpoint whatever specific you had in mind but failed to describe »black-on-white« in any of your posts. I responded covering only what I most strongly disagree with. This would be mainly the opinion that relevations on psychedelics are impossible if the user is capable of introspection. In my previous post I provided a gist of what any revelation (sober or chemically influenced) requires. Being highly introspective and openly curious can help provide any relevation that could potentially happen but it isn't necessary at all. People can also find meaning and ideas even with a minimum input of effort put into it. It can work both ways, which is why I don't actually believe that introspection and meaningful revelations have any positive or negative relationship. The most & the least introspective individuals can indulge in their own respective mysteries from a different perspective. That itself creates a possibility of a meaningful outcome We're always on an endless frontier of our knowledge, trying to understand or give meaning to anything with a fresh perspective can be useful to anyone. Potentially of course. > im just agreeing with OP that it's likely not going to be all that big or life changing, because those are just emotional reactions and beliefs about one's past experience.What? are you suggesting, that psychedelics only bring about memories and emotional responses? If that's the case for you, no wonder why you would think they're meaningless. There are so many types of revelations. Let's just focus on the personal level which you seem to bring up so often: The way in which I personally see a deeper meaning in psychedelics are their properties of ego dissolution. Not ego-death itself, but close. Seeing the world and yourself in a completely different light has turned my life around and put my priorities in order. I've always been introspective, I just valued and focused on things and habits that were simply leading me no-where. Maybe that's not a meaningful revelation for you, but it is for me. >insights you get from tripping aren't likely going to seem all that life changing because you wind up just covering the same general ground as you already haveIt's best not to even differentiate between the various natures and circuimstances of revelations (natural, drug-induced) ....other than how meaningful they actually are. Relevations AREN'T about »covering new grounds«, they're all about applying the same knowledge and experience in a different way. The more that these relevations can be applied generally, the more meaningful they become. For example: Coming up with a general theory of relativity is a matter of revelation as much as it is a matter of knowledge. Understanding the laws of physics that would be required for the discovery is not enough. There could certainly be physicists who could've been more knowledgeable than Einstein, but probably wouldn't understand their own theoretical shortcomings and unexplained mysteries. Until someone gets a revelation ...!!!Btw this is just a hyperbole. PLEASE DON'T THINK i'm equating psychedelic use with Einstein. Relevations vary greatly in importance and scope, but the process behind them is in essence the same.
> I just felt like you didn't take the idea far enough
> im just agreeing with OP that it's likely not going to be all that big or life changing, because those are just emotional reactions and beliefs about one's past experience.
>insights you get from tripping aren't likely going to seem all that life changing because you wind up just covering the same general ground as you already have
>>889511>The way in which I personally see a deeper meaning in psychedelics are their properties of ego dissolution. Not ego-death itself, but close. Seeing the world and yourself in a completely different light has turned my life aroundWell said brother. I feel something similar during my trips, it is always very intimate and very important. I prefer mild ego dissolution with very mild visual changes. Just enough so that this organic chemistry with a designated name has conversation with a teacher while the teacher can experience himself through this organic chemistry.Also while you are talking about Einstein, I found new appreciation for Arthur Eddington's expeditions because I could feel the geometry of space during my mushroom trips.
>The way in which I personally see a deeper meaning in psychedelics are their properties of ego dissolution. Not ego-death itself, but close. Seeing the world and yourself in a completely different light has turned my life around
>>889509I went through an experience where I thought what I had tripped was really for months and it was the most horrific time of my life. I have since recovered because I figured out that I saw what I saw because the colossal amount of stress I was under at the time was given shape by the LSD combined with really poor choice of setting. Moreover untill I found this board I had nobody to broach my experience with on an intellectual level which was so damn isolating that I was sliding into suicidal ideation. This board helped me so much, I love you all.
Your hypothesis assumes a lot. most importantly, it assumes>psychedelics don't give you a different perspective on your own lifewhich they totally can, and that is often where revelations come fromand also>spiritual experiences dont come from withinThere's no difference between if your sober, on a thumbprint dose, haven't slept in 4 days, or anything else. A spiritual experience is a spiritual experienceI could say more but based on this alone I'm calling OP a poser
>psychedelics don't give you a different perspective on your own life
>spiritual experiences dont come from within
I've never had a thought while on psychedelics that I couldn't have had sober. But... it's like I accomplish months worth of thinking in one night. The value of psychedelics is that these drugs shut down the parts of your brain responsible for rigid thought loops, which can range from "college is important" to "I hate my parents." You can look at old, seemingly decided topics in a new light. Normally that would be very hard to do and can take months of therapy. But under psychedelic drugs I've accomplished such feats in minutes.
>>889432I had a similar experience on a few tabs of lsd except i didnt see god in my pant leg, but instead the contrast of the more faded, white fibers underneath lines of blue ones started to look like i had the u.s. constitution embroidered into my jeans.
>there is no magic fractal zone with """energy beings""", you are literally hallucinatingYes I am aware you felt it was real, that's why they call it a hallucination and not using your imagination
>there is no magic fractal zone with """energy beings""", you are literally hallucinating
psychedelics show you a different perspective on yourself. Simple as that. What you get out of it depends on you. OP might be onto something, but not for the reason they think. When you go through life without thinking much, a dramatically new perspective can instill immense amounts of curiosity and interest. Especially when voluntary. Keep in mind, simple wisdom is easy to share, but difficult to full comprehend. IE, "do unto others" is pretty simple. But what it MEANS varies greatly with each unique interpretation of it. Even the sjws talk about a dif perspective, "it's not about how YOU want to be treated, but how THEY want to be treated". When you work on the mind/self/spirit/etc, you'll often find yourself 'relearning' old lessons in a new light. This is because as you develop your beliefs/thought processes, you'll find new ways of looking at "common" concepts, which can bring you deeper insights into your Self. Think of it like a science experiment. You can't learn much unless you have the test AND the control. You can't get much out of having only one or the other, because there's nothing to compare. Psychs are similar. OP seems caught on subjectivity vs objectivity. A very common one, especially for people who think they're intelligent. (and I don't say that to imply you AREN'T intelligent. smart people are often more attached to their current belief systems (similar reason as to why smart people often get scammed). I think you're onto something OP, but I hope you'll look more thoughtfully at your preconceptions. For something to be "spiritual", it only needs a little spec of Subjectivity. And although illogical for me to assume, I'd bet you're a sentient individual with your own subjective experience. Consider your interpretations, go through them with a fine toothed comb like a scientist. It's an investment in yourself, and like you suggest, it doesn't require psychs.
>>892000>op might be on to somethingOP is a troll, soul brotha
>op might be on to something
>>891993>navigating innerspace isn't real because it's innerspaceAll reality is just made up of experiences anyway, calling it not real because it's chemically induced is missing the point.
>navigating innerspace isn't real because it's innerspace
>>892124I f you have to explain that to somebody you are already conversing with the wrong person.
>>892129True, talk to schizophrenics, they also claim that shit they experience is realalso remember to not talk to anyone who doesn't share your opinions and keep getting high!
Honestly the only reason I do psychedelics is to connect better with my subconscious.
>>892124Reality is specifically defined as the outer universe that exists independently of your experience. Your subjective reality is NOT reality.Chemically induced hallucinations and delusions are not remotely real, and the only people who claim reality is your experience of events are just dreamy wishy washy fucktards
>>892133You are confusing the physical world with what is real. Your experience is what is real, not some physical noumena.Imagine actually not being able to see the value in psychedelic entities because they aren't physical lmao.
>>889431the whole world exists between your earsif LSD proves an article of great spiritual power, then so be it
>>892133This objective reality can only be an abstraction, and not in fact representative of reality in itself, which MUST encompass and precede both objective and subjective realities if you embrace a monistic way of looking at things.The mistake people who think of themselves as rational and objective make is confusing this abstraction of reality, based in objectivity (the world as it exists for this subject to make use of...the objects and their properties and functions...that while sharpened by the shared experiences of beings similar to oneself is in the end an abstraction from the mind or minds), with the primeval world that exists prior to any distinction between subject and object.I don't know if this primeval world can be truly described or comprehended, it is the object of many flavors of spirituality/religion/philosophy...Some say that psychedelics allow you to experience this world temporarily, perhaps by softening the mental filter which our minds generate for the sake of our survival and propagation. Some think that the brain is a filter for a mind-at-large (or global mind, world-soul, and other names), which is probably not truly a mind but part of that primeval pre-mental, collapsed reality.If true then perfect (or perfectly sustained) enlightenment is not for the living, to be enlightened you must give yourself up:"One seeks forbidden knowledge, whether wittingly or, more likely, unwittingly, but one may not know till it is too late...The knowledge, once gained, is too great for the mind of man. It is Promethean, Faustian knowledge. Knowledge that destroys in the moment of enlightenment, a Gnosis of damnation, not of salvation."And to live is to be in some sense an automaton.More, I don't see how beings could possibly communicate experiences that are subjectively unique to them (if those experiences, or aspects of experience, exist), there must be some basis for comparison. That which we can communicate amongst ourselves arises sheerly out of accident, perhaps an accident of similar configuration.Could it be possible that there are no experiences that are truly unique qualitatively, only varying in distribution and intensity?
>>892136Imagine if the value in psychedelic entities is completely up to the observer? What's the point if you get to decide your own meaning and purpose? Clearly existence is paradoxical and attempting to understand it is an exercise in madness.>>892142Surely, everything we experience is a product of our own individual perspective. So, how can I know that my senses aren't lying? I'll have to come back this discussion later, but part of your post:>Some think that the brain is a filter for a mind-at-large (or global mind, world-soul, and other names)Reminds me of the "intellect of the overmind," as described by the Jewish philosopher Maimonides. We are he, and he is we, etc.
>Some think that the brain is a filter for a mind-at-large (or global mind, world-soul, and other names)
>>889431Depends on your belief and inner strength.
>>889431There is NOTHING "real" about *any* spiritual experience, fuckstick. There are no gods or spirits or demons or devils. There are just neurotransmitters. Shitting on experiences other find meaningful is peak narcissist or gross ignorance. Either way, kindly shove it up your ass.
>>892167hey kidsspot the retard
>>892168everything he said was right.
>>892170>confirmation biasdefinitions of words constantly change and its very rare to find someone with the exact same experiences and perceptions that you have, spirituality is what ever you want it to be, everything is perception and obsevation, and nothing is ever certain, this is what the materialist fears the most, the discoveries we've made through QP so far show that were just a 3d island in a sea of something much greater, aka omniverse/the all, you cant quantify beyond your own limits, yet we know it gives valid mathematical answers, to our world and our existence, the following video explains E8, a geometrical structure that represents the densest packing of particles.https://youtu.be/vJi3_znm7ZESo yeah there's pretty good evidence "spiritual" phenomena can be understood by science, you wouldnt call it spiritual then, even though it would likely use the same or similar formula, one is simply for scientists, the other is for the common man. My religion/spirituality is simply meditation and drugs, and exploring the different ideas i can come up with. Not saying every perception on psychedelics is valid, in fact, many of them aren't, you have to be gifted enough intellectually (imo at least) to not take any of it seriously, i mean, i dont even take myself seriously, i cant know nothing for certain, you simply cant trust your perceptions.why the fuck does anything exist anyway? itd make so much more sense if nothing existed, with us being the spawn of some quantum abomination existing in a loop of endless simulated realities, but whatever. Thats a story for another day.
>>892189Muh spirit science
>>892190muh small brain
>>892189that video is a load of bullshit and the creator of the foundation is a known scammerhttps://www.circlejerk.com/r/ScienceTeachers/comments/8q63e2/hacking_reality_the_search_for_a_new_theory_of/https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Klee_Irwinhttps://circlejerk.com/r/Physics/comments/7kbmdg/whats_the_story_behind_quantum_gravity_research/
>>892189wow, subatomic particles follow geometric rules, looks like spirits and angels and demons are real after all
>>892199>attacks character for credibilityi ezpected nothing less from /psy/
>attacks character for credibility
>>892205you really are retard aren't you
a psychedelic trip is basically deconstruction and reconstruction of the ego, so yes, there's nothing spiritual – just a useful psychotherapeutic toolthe "spiritual" part comes from an induced episode of schizophrenia where everything is connected to everything and has an endless number of meaningsbut that's because critical thinking goes out of the window (and so do some psychonauts irl)
>>892207less retardeded than those following the herd
>>892223the trick is mastering insanity, if you're inheritly schizophrenic i dont think this is possible, eventually, you're able to use critical thought while simultaneously using that state which can lead to pretty great experiences and long term positive changes, at least IME
>>892225This is what I would call The Prime Psychonaut's Fallacy. There's often zero positive change from taking psychedelics – people just go "ohh I'm so fucking enlightened now" and then continue with their old behavioral patterns but with a bigger ego. (Yes, I know there are some cool insights or quitting drinking/smoking but these are star children of psychedelic trips and no the norm.)The change comes from consistent self-development, from recognizing your shitty behavior towards others, from trying to be more humble and compassionate than yesterday. Trips just show you the limits of your mind, you still have to work your ass off to get there.Image translation: "Expectation: enlightenment, self-awareness, ommm" vs. "Reality: scatology, apophatic theology, gnosticism, how to live in this dark prison..?"
>>892235I dunno, starting out I just expected to get high. I took 4.2g of cubes for my first psychedelic experience and had introspection sort of forced on me. I think a bigger fallacy amongst modern psychonauts is over valuing intermittent intoxicated introspection versus that mindfulness as a way of life. It's along the lines of what you've said but noting that analyzing what you experienced through a sober lense is super important. It's not just recognizing that imbalance that was "revealed" but paying it mind and also what brought you there. Not trying to contradict or anything, just maybe build a bit on it.
>>892235"If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen." --Alan Watts
>>892241Yes, you are completely right.>>892242Exactly, too bad sir Watts didn't practice much and succumbed to alcohol. I still love him but he's a reminder that one should walk the talk.
>>892248I think the tragic irony is that a lot of people lack the courage to do it without being forced to by a drug experience that can be sometimes uncomfortable or downright horrifying. Terrence McKenna was kind of a hack but he wasn't without wisdom entirely. I think he said "You cannot hope to cross the rainbow bridge on an act of good contrition alone, you must understand" and by definition if you are intoxicated on any level understanding and retention are hindered in the normal sense. There's layers of irony to this situation within these communities and it's bitter sweet at best.
>>892242To me that quote seems to imply that psychedelics don't always have something left to teach. Like the message never ends. Even so, it might still be good to immerse yourself once every 2-3 months to maintain a deeper connection.Also, I don't think that quote really applies if your use is ritualistic or shamanic, or even likely if religious. Then again, you'd obviously succumb to psychosis before comprehending a deeper a level of the message if your mind isn't sound enough. Play it safe, so to say, but there's still more for the brave.
>>892253> Even so, it might still be good to immerse yourself once every 2-3 months to maintain a deeper connection.A newbie would not have enough time to process the experience and a seasoned psychonaut should see frequent need to trip as a worrying sign.I'd say once a year is nice and it should be getting even less frequent as you acquire wisdom through increasing self-awareness (daily meditation to the rescue).
> Even so, it might still be good to immerse yourself once every 2-3 months to maintain a deeper connection.
>>889431Hard agree. I recognize that LSD only amplifies existing mental processors or breaking down barriers between units of your brain. So all the "revelations" I had while on LSD (questioning levels of structures that lead to the society we consider the norm or thinking about the strange loop that is my consciousness and how it interfaces with reality), I could've had while sober. However, it had to be LSD for me to actually FEEL it. Going with what you said, it's like therapy. Sometimes you need an external input that fundamentally influences your mental processes.
>>889431Like the pic, but his bow grip is awful.
>>889432A drip of sweat rolling down my bare ass was a life changing experience while on lsd
Oh look, it's the edgy deep thought analytical rational acid heads spreading their unbiased words of wisdom like it's a new paradigm. You should get your talking time at TEDx.
>>893605Oh look, it's the edgy New Age mystical acid heads spreading their unbiased words of wisdom like it's a new paradigm. You should get your talking time at TEDx.
Spirituality is simply connecting to what is outside you, so it can pretty much be whatever the fuck you want.I've had intense spiritual experiences on MDMA dickdeep in pussy. Hell, go hard enough on the thought stuff and EVERYTHING can become spiritual.
>>893605> acid headsDuh, I've done 2 trips in the last 5 years. Coming here for weird pictures.
> acid heads
>>893609Jokes on you, I am just a cynical asshole.
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