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420chan is Getting Overhauled - Changelog/Bug Report/Request Thread (Updated April 10)
Psychedelics and delusions Ignore Report Reply
Henry Bezzledale - Sun, 03 Mar 2019 10:21:40 EST ID:Ck70wQtn No.894056
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So what is it with the link between psychedelics and pseudo-scientific mystical spiritual New Age mumbo jumbo? You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't you? Why is it that these people are able to say so many words without conveying a single thought? Having been on /psy/ and similar communities on the internet, I've found that it's not just some crazy small minority, there are actually a lot of people with vague, undefined spiritual beliefs that they are completely unable to explain but will still act smug and call you out for relying on scientific explanations of the psychedelic experience as if you're the foolish, naive one.

I just can't for the life of me wrap my head around people who unironically think drugs are some kind of instant wisdom dispenser that instantly make you understand the nature of life and existence better than experts in any field. There's this aura of elitism around it too, with claims like "if you know, you know" as if they're members of some holy circle that is endowed with the gift of sacred knowledge. I feel like this is a deflective method because most of these people are in a way aware that their beliefs are complete bullshit so they resort to "words can not explain it my man".

The question that often comes to my mind is this - is it psychedelics that turn "normal" people into these deluded hippy burnouts or is it that deluded hippy nuts are more likely to use psychedelics but were that way before their exposure to these drugs? I've gone through many psychedelic experiences and while they absolutely opened my mind to new information and made me rethink a lot of things, the experiences opened my mind to delusions as well. These delusions are extremely convincing during the actual trip, but usually don't hold up to scrutiny the day later. I feel like a lot of people believed their drugged mind a lot more than their sober mind for some mindbogglingly stupid reason and don't even think twice before accepting whatever psychedelics throw at them as the absolute truth. Psychedelics throw a spanner in the works of the brain and expose the patterns it functions on, revealing its inner workings so to speak, and this can bring to genuine insight. But I think it's incredibly foolish to think that psychedelics can show you no wrong and that the psychedelic experience somehow trumps centuries of accumulated knowledge about how the world works.
>>
David Grandspear - Sun, 03 Mar 2019 20:43:48 EST ID:orOv8TrE No.894057 Ignore Report Reply
yes
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Charlotte Sunningfield - Mon, 04 Mar 2019 01:38:20 EST ID:xGULFVTo No.894058 Ignore Report Reply
Hear, hear. I'm with you on this, OP. I feel like psychedelics really do make you more susceptible to influence. I suppose that's why the CIA wanted to use LSD as some sort of mind-control / truth serum, eh?
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Charlotte Blosslechetch - Mon, 04 Mar 2019 06:05:23 EST ID:MU5DQUTc No.894060 Ignore Report Reply
Psychedelics alter your perception of patterns, including cause and effect. When you're tripping, it makes certain pseudo-scientific mystical spiritual New Age mumbo jumbo more likely to appear to be real patterns of cause and effect.
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Charles Worthingstone - Mon, 04 Mar 2019 17:16:48 EST ID:7ybtrJEe No.894068 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
People generally don't base their view of reality on prior principles so they can be heavily impressed upon by psychedelics. The answer to your question is therefore that 'normal' people aren't particularly rational. They believe what they see and hear on TV. Why would it be different with a psychedelic drug which is a much more engaging and direct experience?
>>
Hannah Clemmlebanks - Mon, 04 Mar 2019 21:34:48 EST ID:TThgpdEf No.894071 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894056
I think there are basically two types of people who gravitate toward psychedelics. On one end, you have depressed/anxious folks who have exhausted most traditional treatments and are desperate for some sort of respite. These people benefit from the open-mindedness that psychedelics can foster; it can help them break out of their cycles of rumination and self-doubt and adopt a more positive outlook on life.

On the other hand, you have risk-takers, thrill-seekers, and generally "adventurous" people who are already open-minded, and hence more likely to explore novel experiences like psychedelics. These people don't need any more openness to experience; in fact, the personality changes induced by tripping are likely to make them so open-minded that they uncritically embrace irrational, magical thinking.

TLDR: Psychs can make already weird people even nuttier, and weird people are naturally drawn to psychedelics.
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edgelord faggot - Tue, 05 Mar 2019 02:29:30 EST ID:gUTY4D83 No.894075 Ignore Report Reply
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I thought much like you before i became indoctrinated into a cult-blog based around the exact bullshit you describe. Shit was whack and I was making way too much money to fool these poor schizos. I dipped.

At the end of the day though objectively what we were doing was infusing the vague essence of the meta section of a bookstore into our blog.

Now because of all the cult shit my views are open but unfixed.

I am everything and nothing.

I feel like I took the red pill and blue pill at the same time.
>>
Oliver Dartcocke - Tue, 05 Mar 2019 20:35:12 EST ID:1ryu/mz6 No.894078 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
What is insanity? What is madness? Is schizophrenia real? These modern conceptions of mental illness are themselves products of our time. A philosophical understanding would reveal that madness that the suffering of mad people is not because of an individual paychological illness but actually a product of the socious which through the despot creates a paranoiac regime that excludes and punishes it's excesses. The experience of the mad can be said to be more real than the experience of the "same" or "normal". Mental health institution's are just an extension of the us prison state and our psychological understanding only seeks to reinforce authoritarianism the war on drugs and social exclusion.
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Fucking Socklechedge - Wed, 06 Mar 2019 08:19:34 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894083 Ignore Report Reply
>>894078
Oh fuck off retard. We have pretty clear proof of what mental illness is.

We got genes, we got brain scans. We can predict which people will get a fucking freakout on psychoactive substances. We got therapy that combats its symptoms.
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Archie Sugglegold - Wed, 06 Mar 2019 22:56:50 EST ID:7ybtrJEe No.894098 Ignore Report Reply
>>894078
>>894083
philosophy, questioning, and historical approach vs muh STEM. Nice to see a fellow rhizome on this board
>>
Esther Buzzworth - Thu, 07 Mar 2019 15:11:26 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894105 Ignore Report Reply
>>894098
Yelling a lot about how "mental illness is "just a product of our time" isn't philosophy you fucking retarded cocksucker.

It's just being a fucking retarded cocksucker.

I'm not someone from a STEM field. I studied philosophy. I know philosophy when I see it. And that post isn't philosophy. It's just being a fucking retarded cocksucker.
>>
Jarvis Brookville - Thu, 07 Mar 2019 18:34:34 EST ID:orOv8TrE No.894107 Ignore Report Reply
>>894078

>is schizophrenia real?

You obviously don't know a single thing about psychology if you would be so ignorant as to ask such a dumb question. For the love of fucking god please learn something about a subject before you talk about it, because you only make yourself look like the fool you are.
>>
Augustus Battingworth - Thu, 07 Mar 2019 23:56:28 EST ID:7ybtrJEe No.894110 Ignore Report Reply
>>894105
what ails you friend
>>
Charlotte Cevingbore - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 04:10:28 EST ID:5tWln8Ix No.894111 Ignore Report Reply
I only really started doing mushrooms this year. I've always had the "wisdom comes from experience" sort of mindset, so I was very open to things in general. My first several trips were relatively insignificant; first was .5g, second was 1.5g, and my third was 3g. I felt bliss for the first two, but the third was the first "real" trip. I had believed that I was experienced with mushrooms for my forth time, so I decided to do 4g and then geeb with a few buddies. I won't bore you with the details, but shit hit the fan.

I was 100% unready for the experience. I was thrust into a full ego death; basic concepts started to become foreign. My mind was blank. I could recall my own appearance, my parents, and my friends, but they didn't mean anything to me. This was scary. I was trying to cling to my ego, but it just wasn't there. I thought that I had died and gone to hell. By the time it was over, I was relieved that it had passed and I didn't actually die; I didn't think much else of it. It was just a weird drug experience, nothing more.

Later that year, I had signed up to take Eastern Religion 203 to fulfill my religion credit. I could have taken a course on the Abrahamic faiths, but I was already familiar on them. I knew nothing about Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc, so I did that instead. When we began to study Buddhism and Taoism, something clicked. If I was to rid myself of pain, suffering, hatred, etc, I must also rid myself of desire and achieve a thoughtless, blank mental state. A Buddha or sage is someone that is able to hone their mind to achieve this state without external substances. In the Visualization Sutras, one is able to achieve Buddhahood by envisioning every detail of the Pure Land during meditation, speaking with one of the infinite Buddhas, and returning to their body to teach others. This is not literal. Their soul isn't actually traveling to some spirit land; in fact, they aren't "traveling" at all, and the Buddha isn't an external entity. The envisionment of the land is simply an exercise to enter deep meditation, and the Buddha is a manifestation of your mind. From there, you are able to gain insight that is not influenced by anything other than your true nature, just like how many people gain knowledge from mushroom trips. Mushrooms are a cheap and dirty way to achieve this, at least compared to spending decades practicing meditation.

When you experience an ego death, you are getting in touch with that "Buddha" that is within your mind, as your sense of self and possession have dissipated. I didn't really gain that much profound knowledge about myself from my experience with mushrooms since I was clinging to my worldly possessions, but I did understand what the end goal for these religions ultimately was and what it would feel like when you got there. To be enlightened is to be invincible; you will no longer be bothered by death, pain, or sadness if you have no sense of self in the first place. The goal of religion is to better people and society; Buddhism and Taoism just encourage it through more esoteric ways than the Abrahamic faiths basically just saying "if you do good stuff, you'll go to a really good place when your time on Earth is up".

I did gain insight from mushrooms: Eastern religions ended up making more sense to me. It wasn't something that I instantly gathered from the trip, but rather an "ooooohhhhhhh I see" moment later on. I probably would have gone crazy if took everything that happened during my trip as reality.

I'd like to believe that the strange entities that we encounter on drugs are real beings that are beyond our common perception, but I think it's much more likely that they're just parts of our mind that we aren't familiar with. I think that the pseudo-scientific mystical spiritual New Age mumbo jumbo that you're talking about comes from people taking what they see as literal or reality, rather than acknowledging that they are an already existing part of your mind.

Hopefully that makes sense. Perhaps I just proved your point?
>>
Henry Brattingford - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 09:09:57 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894114 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894111
Terence McKenna already said all that needs to be said about those mongoloid retards that think that "entities" are actually independent intelligences.
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Shit Brookwill - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 14:04:05 EST ID:+3TJH40x No.894115 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894075

I'm curious what blog you are referring to? I enjoy reading paranormal cult bullshit when I light up a joint to start the weekend.

>>894078

Man, I sympathize with your thesis, but you're being ridiculed because you're proving exactly what the OP wants to discuss. I've read Foucault too, buddy -- but you don't have to write a rambling diatribe expounding on what you believe mental illness to be. Schizophrenia is real. Depression is real. Mania is real. However, acknowledging the reality of a person's plight does not a CIA spook-shrink make.

Psychology is not some global conspiracy to silence free thinkers. It's a subject peopled with fallible humans just like yourself; people make fucking huge mistakes all the time. If I see a bum on the street muttering to himself over and over that he sees God and that God talks to him, I'm not going to think he's enlightened. I'm going to want to buy him a hamburger and a hot coffee so that he can get out of the elements for a few moments so that his real psyche can be spared the hellish turmoil that is aimless homelessness.

Also, your use of quotation marks is absurd.
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Augustus Battingworth - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 16:07:10 EST ID:7ybtrJEe No.894118 Ignore Report Reply
>>894114
are you certain he said that about DMT 'entities' and not tripping experiences in general? are you certain that that was his 100% firm opinion and not just a hypothesis?
>>
Augustus Battingworth - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 16:11:13 EST ID:7ybtrJEe No.894119 Ignore Report Reply
>>894115
>>894107
btw he was referencing the works of Deleuze and Guattari, Anti-Oedipus and A Thousand Plateaus.
>>
Matilda Grandson - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 17:00:12 EST ID:UEuITbKI No.894120 Ignore Report Reply
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Its because language is too limited to fully explain the psychedelic knowledge
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Matilda Grandson - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 17:03:18 EST ID:UEuITbKI No.894121 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
Its because language cannot fully explain the psychedelic knowledge so it sounds vague and ambiguous. Its like trying to explain what food tastes like, what a song sounds like, or what a piece of art means.
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Shit Brookwill - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 18:06:22 EST ID:+3TJH40x No.894122 Ignore Report Reply
>>894119

Then by Moses he should have been more explicit! If that's what you call reference, I'm afraid you haven't been exposed to rigorous scholastic material of any variety. Good faith discussion requires as least a modicum of give and take. This is a scenario where I'd be happy to engage an anon on the merit of his ideas, but I get the feeling he was sputtering garbage and not referencing anything at all. It's entirely possible you read more allusory value into his post by virtue of having a background in the ideas yourself.

If you happen to infer exactly what he's referencing, I'd be interested in reading suggestions.
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Phineas Lightlock - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 18:18:13 EST ID:Ck70wQtn No.894123 Ignore Report Reply
>>894120
>psychedelic knowledge

See, there's that implication that psychedelics somehow inherently contain knowledge. Knowledge is information gathering, and the information is out there, and inside you. The best a psychedelic can do is be a tool that helps you acquire this knowledge, but it's available without the use of any drugs. I've been through many high dose trips and there was never a part that made me even remotely believe that I was being blessed by holy psychedelic knowledge. It's difficult to put into words, but jumping to ridiculous conclusions just because parts of the experience are difficult to frame in language is retarded.
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Shit Brookwill - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 18:22:55 EST ID:+3TJH40x No.894124 Ignore Report Reply
>>894119
>>894122

Also, my last question was a bit ambiguous. I meant to ask for anything beyond that joint work by D&G.
>>
Clara Drezzlelore - Fri, 08 Mar 2019 22:25:42 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894125 Ignore Report Reply
>>894123
I've been blessed with holy psychedelic knowledge numerous times.

Spoiler: it's like getting an empty box.

It's merely the experience of knowing some deep world altering wisdom. The outer shell.
>>
Caroline Greenhall - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 03:36:12 EST ID:FseTDh3B No.894126 Ignore Report Reply
>>894125
Yeah, but what you'e calling psychedelic knowledge is nothing more than knowledge acquired while you happened to be in a psychedelic state of consciousness.

We don't go around calling the knowledge and experience we get from traumatic or challenging life experiences "(holy/profound/mystic) trauma knowledge" or "(holy/profound/mystic) challenging times knowledge". We don't call insights gained while sleep deprived "sleep deprived knowledge" either, etc. So, why refer to insights and knowledge gained while on psychedelics that way? Ultimately, it's just another experience, and it just so happens to be experienced during a more or less specific set of circumstances and state of consciousness.

I mean, any wisdom you gain is world altering, isn't it? Doesn't it all change our perception of the world, sometimes vastly, sometimes subtly? Pretending there is something inherently special about the knowledge acquired on psychedelics is rather foolish and silly in light of all that, right? The knowledge, insights, and wisdom you get from a psychedelic experience merely feel profound, special, and so significant as a result of the altered state of consciousness you're in--it's a direct effect of the drug. It's bordering on delusional at best and fully delusional at worst to actually to treat that drug-induced perception as being true/actually the case.
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Nathaniel Hemmlechutch - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 06:52:42 EST ID:Ck70wQtn No.894128 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894125
Well then it's hardly knowledge. It's exactly the kind of delusion I was talking about. An intense feeling of wisdom and enlightenment without any substance to it. Like you said, a mere shell. Psychedelics have this ability to induce intense feelings of epiphanies, eureka moments that seem to bypass the usual requirement - actually figuring something out. I have experienced this too, but upon asking myself what exactly this newly found knowledge was, I'd usually realize it's literally nothing. Pic related is me in these moments.

In fact, I've found that moderate doses are the most likely to give you actually useful insight. You're still connected to this world but with a very shifted perspective, and thinking outside the box comes very naturally, potentially leading to new information as you rethink things you've taken for granted for years. On higher doses, you become increasingly disconnected from our reality in experiences that culminate in ego death. Ego death is a worthwhile experience in itself, but I think most of the "knowledge" acquired along the way on these high doses is usually complete bullshit. People come back from these experiences convinced that they've traveled through alternate dimensions and met higher intelligent beings, but all evidence points to these being products of a drugged mind. When you think about it, your normal, sober model of reality is created entirely in the brain by brain chemistry so having an extremely altered model created when you modify your brain chemistry only makes sense. Believing that introducing a foreign molecule to your brain chemistry has a supernatural ability to teleport you around and give you deep wisdom is, again, delusional.

Believing your drugged mind more than your sober mind that's a product of 4 billion years of evolution is just beyond me. But of course, bringing this up in conversations with pseudo-enlightened "psychonauts" only makes them go "lol u obviously never even tripped". These people don't realize that someone can go through the same experience and come to different conclusions about it. Apparently I'm a fool for not believing my senses because our senses are the most perfect thing in the world. It's like seeing a magic show, being convinced it's real and then calling the guy who knows it's all just hidden tricks an idiot because he doesn't believe his eyes.
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Caroline Greenhall - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 09:36:43 EST ID:FseTDh3B No.894131 Ignore Report Reply
>>894128
Eh, even though I don't understand why he insists on labeling it "psychedelic knowledge", but I can't help but feel like you didn't really get what he was talking about when using that metaphor.

What he was meaning by that got through to me, but I'll be the first to say it's a rather poor description that's easy to not get and it's definitely not how I conceptualize the knowledge and insights I acquire while I happen to be in a psychedelic state.

To me, it's much more like discovering something you always knew to begin with. Nothing new is actually revealed or learned so much as it is, for the first time, deeply and profoundly understood. It's like an "aha" moment about something completely fucking obvious, only the sensation that you get in comparison to sober "aha" moments is on steroids that are on steroids.

Honestly, after reflecting on those insights multiple times while sober, more often than not I realize it was something I actually literally already understood prior to taking the psychedelic. This has led me to the conclusion that the feeling of having discovered forbidden truths and learning super deep and profound things about the nature of reality is literally just an effect of taking psychedelics just the same as getting visual hallucinations and time dilation is. Well, rather, it doesn't randomly cause that perception really, I mean, but instead it SIGNIFICANTLY raises the potential for such perceptions/experiences occurring, kind of like how positive allosteric modulators change the internal properties of a neuron to have a significantly reduced threshold for the firing of an action potential.
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Clara Drezzlelore - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 10:00:58 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894132 Ignore Report Reply
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Let's not be all negative though. Psychedelics are really good at making you FEEL what you already KNOW. There's a big difference between knowing and feeling. When you experience something, it causes a much stronger call to action.
>Like how every astronaut who has seen Earth from space has gained a strong drive to protect the Earth's environment. They've seen the edges of our global ecosystem and the dead void that surrounds us. That is an experience, a feeling that activates.

Psychedelics can cause a similar, weaker simulated hallucination that turns knowledge in experience.

We all know on some level the amount of extinct lifeforms that came before us throughout the existence of life on Earth. Billions of years, trillions of species.
You learn it in school, you read it in books, you hear about it in documentaries.
But you don't feel it, you don't experience it. It carries no weight for you, personally.

That is, until you get hit by motherfucking Boneyard Earth.

I saw the layers of stone and earth on the Earth's crust be peeled away until only the fossils of trillions of dead animals, plants, fungi and bacteria were laid bare. A ball of bones and remains. A death ball floating through space.Skeletons of all sizes, a few whole that died in peace, almost every skeleton shattered by violence. We're all living on a motherfucking graveyard man. The sheer amount of death and suffering across billions of years that took place just so I can sit here today is just mindboggling. What I saw was just a shallow vision that probably can't even hold a candle to the true scope of the bloodbath called prehistory, but that's not important. What's important is that I know Boneyard Earth, and that I've felt Boneyard Earth.

Does it change my life? No, I already knew that. But it has intensified my actions. I care more about the environment. I also laugh at people that believe the universe is love. Fuck off, the universe wants us dead, the universe wants life dead. A million year of more volcanic activity during the Permian and life on Earth would have ended forever 252 million years ago. The only love in this hostile universe is life itself. Life finds a way.
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Martha Higglefield - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:13:57 EST ID:hjADCh1I No.894133 Ignore Report Reply
It's this thread again.
>>
Priscilla Clocklehit - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:50:13 EST ID:MbPo0uqA No.894134 Ignore Report Reply
>>894133
As opposed to the millionth BWT or "where get drugs" thread
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Martha Higglefield - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 14:55:32 EST ID:hjADCh1I No.894135 Ignore Report Reply
>>894134
There's so much variety, it never gets boring.
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Edward Tootforth - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 15:12:28 EST ID:orOv8TrE No.894136 Ignore Report Reply
>>894135

Well Higglefield, what do you propose we talk about then? There are so many lovely topics to choose from. O! I know, let's talk about some of the interesting things we've thought or experienced on psychedelics that seemed like some kind of knowledge gained.
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Reuben Shittingwill - Sat, 09 Mar 2019 15:54:17 EST ID:+3TJH40x No.894137 Ignore Report Reply
>>894126
>>894128
>>894131
>>894132

Really good contributions anons, I enjoyed reading them.

>>894133

Hm? Are you sure you haven't hallucinated reading this thread before? Dejjjjaaaa vuuuuuuuuuuu
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Archie Wongerfoot - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 09:03:36 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894574 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894056

Real question here OP why do you care so much look it is not your concern what other peoples beliefs are i sense that you are the elitist one for thinking that your modes of thinking are superior to your fellow man they are not

sure they embrace spirituality they found beliefs they found a god anon

If you do not agree with them that is fine nobody is trying to convince you otherwise

Your thinking is not superior to theres yes you embrace rationality and logic and by no means am i saying that those are not the most powerful tools that a human being posses to understand the world

but it it is not the only tool

TLDR: Your a judgemental faggot and should stop shitting on other peoples happiness and contentment

Maybe you could consider that you need to be more humble and respectful to your fellow man

although before you take it the wrong way as im certain you will for a person such as yourself

its just a suggestion nobody is forcing there beliefs down your throat

Although i think maybe a few will try to force there new age spirituality down your throats

but most do not

i am of the personal belief that your spiritual/religious experience and relationship with that should be kept to yourself for the same reason why you cannot force a horse to drink water

Everyone has free will anon

you do not have any humility or respect for others beliefs
>>
Isabella Grandbury - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 10:36:52 EST ID:TE012xsS No.894577 Ignore Report Reply
>>894574
lol what is so wrong with being an elitist?

also

>theres

proofread your fucking writing you stupid hippie
>>
Molly Hammerhetch - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 11:55:33 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894579 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894574
Damn, that post was hard to read. Learn to type out a more coherent message for fuck's sake.

>your modes of thinking are superior to your fellow man they are not
>you do not have any humility or respect for others beliefs

Sure dude, every opinion is just as valid as any other and everyone's thinking is equal! We should give people with down syndrome jobs at CERN because their mode of thinking isn't inferior to that of a trained scientist with 30 years of experience. We should probably let them run nuclear plants too. See where I'm going with this? Contrary to popular belief among idiots, not every opinion/mode of thinking is equal to every other. A world view based on facts, research and knowledge isn't the same as a world view constructed by taking a fuckload of drugs and going "dude, elves and dwarfs and faeries and aliens bro! they're real because I saw them after I took lots and lots of drugs!" To even imply every mode of thinking is equal is incredibly naive. And you are absolutely correct, I do not have respect for the beliefs of others if they are baseless, or, worse, based in drug use and drug use alone. Respect is earned, not given. This doesn't mean I lack humility. When in the presence of someone smarter, more informed or simply more talented than me in a certain field I will try to listen and absorb. But I am aware of my own standing and I will call bullshit out when I see it. This doesn't equate to a lack of humility. If you fit your own definition of humility you wouldn't be calling me a judgmental faggot because that's just you being a judgmental faggot towards me and my views.

>Everyone has free will anon

Nobody has free will, actually. So, I'm not exactly blaming people for having stupid, baseless beliefs because technically, they didn't consciously choose to be that way, nor did I consciously choose to be the way I am. I'm merely curious about the connection between these deluded beliefs and the use of psychedelics, which is right there in the title of the thread. You said:

>look it is not your concern what other peoples beliefs are

And to that I say - you do not choose what my concerns are. I can be concerned with whatever the fuck I want. To imply otherwise is to be supportive of thought control. But again, the thread wasn't even about these New Age nuts and their beliefs per se, my concern is their connection to psychedelics. Seeing as I enjoy psychedelics and discussing them, I often have run-ins with these people and the bullshit I hear from them sparks my curiosity for sure. You say nobody is forcing their beliefs down my throat, and again, you're missing the point of the discussion. If I were to bring up Buddhism in a discussion, would you immediately interpret it as me saying that someone is forcing Buddhism down my throat? Ideas can be discussed without the implication that those ideas are being forced upon me. To reiterate, the thread isn't about digging deep into these people's beliefs and calling them out, it's about what attracts these people to psychedelics and if psychedelics actually fuel a deepening of these delusional beliefs.

>i am of the personal belief that your spiritual/religious experience and relationship with that should be kept to yourself

And I am of the personal belief that anyone who feels like sharing their belief should be free to do so, and many, including me, choose to do it. But the freedom to express a view on any sort of public forum doesn't mean your views won't be the subject of scrutiny, criticism or perhaps even ridicule. This is simply the nature of discussing ideas. Of course, you're free to keep quiet about your beliefs and shield them from critique, but I would never imply that these things should (or shouldn't) be kept to oneself. It's up to the person to decide if these views are to be expressed or not.

Finally, let me add that the thing that irks me aren't people who simply have irrational beliefs. When someone expresses an irrational belief but is aware that it's merely a belief, that's fine. The very definition of the word belief says that it is an acceptance of something without necessarily having proof, which is inherently irrational, but understandable. What actually irks me is when a proof of some sort goes against a person's belief and they start misrepresenting or distorting the facts in order for those facts to fit their view, going through extreme mental gymnastics for it to somehow make sense in their minds. This is when a belief turns into a delusion. A delusion is literally defined as a belief that is held despite facts contradicting it. The most common example of this I see in /psy/ circles is people who don't even have a layperson's knowledge of quantum mechanics distorting and twisting quantum mechanical findings until they somehow manage to fit it into their belief that reincarnation is real or that consciousness creates reality or that there are infinitely many parallel universes or that we can travel back in time if we smoke enough DMT or what the fuck ever. Someone who is equally uninformed about physics and also happens to not be a very rational person might read something like that and take it as a given, which is how these idiotic ideas spread. Eventually the lie is repeated and reinforced so many times that when you cite actual quantum mechanics findings, you're an idiotic fool. I despise this spread of misinformation and downright lies which is why you'll notice my annoyance when discussing things related to this topic. You asked why I care - that's why. I hate being a witness to a spread of stupidity and delusion.
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Archie Wongerfoot - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 13:17:56 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894581 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894579
Why do you hate it it does not matter it is irrelevant to you and your existance

people will be stupid and contuine to be stupid till time ends

and one persons definition of stupid is anothers defintion of wise

Your perspective is biased towards yourself you have not walked a mile in another persons shoes and therefore cannot say for certain that there perspective is anymore better or worse than yours

remember anon all you have is your perspective which according to science is a biased image projected inside your brain that has been filtered that is all you have and that is all you ever will have for your entire existance

how do you know what your experiencing is real how do you know that im not just a figment in your head thats arguing with yourself and that your the only thing that ever has existed and ever will exist and everything else is just you creating a delusion

and the world only "renders" when you look at it

you cannot state for certain that is not true

therefore how do you know for certain that there world view is untrue you do not

you cannot

behind all the things that our society creates and the titles and the classes

you are just another hairless ape stumbling in the dark trying to figure out life slowly wasting away days until your inevitable demise

learn to let go of the hate in your heart it serves you no good

its a waste of energy its a waste of your time

stop thinking you can change anyone you cannot and you never will

just like even me telling you this knows that you will come up with more counter arguements and ridicule and i will ultimately have changed nothing in your mind

and your right about the judgemental faggot part

that was flawed and im realizing now that spending time on all the chans is making me toxic

but that is my own can of worms
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Archie Wongerfoot - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 13:40:33 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894582 Ignore Report Reply
>>894579
>Finally, let me add that the thing that irks me aren't people who simply have irrational beliefs. When someone expresses an irrational belief but is aware that it's merely a belief, that's fine. The very definition of the word belief says that it is an acceptance of something without necessarily having proof, which is inherently irrational, but understandable. What actually irks me is when a proof of some sort goes against a person's belief and they start misrepresenting or distorting the facts in order for those facts to fit their view

and some further things to add although i do see where your coming from on this front simply because i understand the frustration that comes from arguing with somebody like a flat earther

i have to re-itterate that its not the validity of there beliefs i was questioning i was questioning your need to correct there beliefs or ideas

nobody will never see the world exactly the way you do and that is ok

everyone has there own views and very little can be done to change those ideas

if they are going to be "stupid" in your opinion then they will be and there is nothing you can do about it except complain and look for validation in others but this ultimately solves nothing

and so you come out the conversation having wasted your energy getting angry about things that do not matter
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Reuben Cluffingfield - Mon, 01 Apr 2019 21:37:51 EST ID:+3TJH40x No.894586 Ignore Report Reply
>>894581
>>894582

Jesus Christ, did you forget to take English 101? Try writing your thoughts in complete sentences without line breaks between each breath.

Until then, nobody will take you seriously. nb
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Betsy Fanridge - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 05:18:29 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894589 Ignore Report Reply
>>894586
Throws childish insults insulting grammar and spelling because you have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation.

You could be doing twenty different things yet you come on 420chan to insult another's grammar and spelling.So you can prove your superiority over others
congratulations "waa i'm sorry mister ill speak better English next time" is that what you want

Well you got it are you happy now you gonna stroke your dick tonight and go yeah i got him real good is it a fetish for you to shit on other's grammar like a Nazi.

you sir need to grow the fuck up if you have nothing meaningful to say then say nothing but no you would rather waste your precious energy getting mad at someone on the internet for not writing the way you feel they should

Is there anything else i missed? you feel superior over your fellow man now?you happy?

FYI: i was 6 joints into a weed sesh and was high af and i feel that if i am not writing a business email or contacting people in a professional manner then i do not need to waste the energy making sure my grammar is 100% correct especially when i am high.

You however feel the need to shit on other peoples spelling and grammar because it makes you feel superior it feeds your fucking ego because deep down way deep down you just like shitting on other people i can already tell your not a very nice person very self-centered you believe yourself the center of the universe
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William Wurrywig - Tue, 02 Apr 2019 10:37:22 EST ID:TE012xsS No.894591 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894589
Yet you choose to ignore the other anon who actually responded with meaningful critique. :^)

Next time, save the philosophizing for when you're sober and keep the manic stoner thoughts inside your head. Hippie dippie life advice is not worth my time to engage with. I understand you may feel that means you've "won" but just chew on what exactly winning means in context, concerning your pathological need to be superior while also pleading humility.

Cheers mate, I hope you discover whatever it is you're desperately searching for in LSD. nb
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Reuben Dezzlestot - Wed, 03 Apr 2019 14:39:44 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894610 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894581
>>894582
>Your perspective is biased towards yourself you have not walked a mile in another persons shoes and therefore cannot say for certain that there perspective is anymore better or worse than yours

I still disagree with you on the key point that everyone's perspective is just as valid as anyone else's. While I am certainly biased when it comes to my own views (as is everyone else when it comes to theirs), I am also aware that I put as much reading and research as possible into certain topics before I feel competent enough to begin discussing them. I feel no shame in admitting that I am not informed on a certain topic, and obviously there are many topics I know very little about. While I may not be an expert in a certain field after reading a couple of books from that field, I strongly believe my opinion/perspective on it is worth more than the opinion of someone who hasn't read any books about it. It doesn't have to be just books, the internet has a wealth of information if you're willing to look for it, but you get my point. A person's perspective on something is much more valuable if that person is knowledgeable on the subject. Also, I think books written by people trained in the scientific method are more valuable than books written by people without experience in scientific fields. As flawed as the scientific method may be, it's still the single greatest method we have right now for the pursuit of truth, because it seeks to actively disprove its own hypothesis, making it the only self-correcting, self-scrutinizing system so far. It's the culmination of rationale and logic which will hopefully continue pushing human knowledge forward. I believe wisdom is a product of knowledge. There is no wisdom without knowledge and experience as its foundation.

>how do you know what your experiencing is real how do you know that im not just a figment in your head

I don't, but the idea of solipsism isn't unfamiliar to me. I've thought about it a lot, but I don't think of it as more than an interesting thought experiment. The whole "maybe you're just a brain in a jar" thing has been discussed to hell and back in philosophy and internet boards alike, but an application of Occam's razor to this topic quickly demonstrates that this requires many assumptions to be made, meaning that it's more than likely untrue. There isn't a single shred of evidence pointing in the direction of this world view being true, and just because there's no evidence pointing in the opposite direction doesn't make the theory very valid. I'm sure you know about the concept of burden of proof. In the space of all possible explanations of life, the universe and existence, only one is correct and countless others are wrong, therefore thinking very seriously about some of the ideas tied to solipsism is next to pointless if there is zero proof of them being true.

>and the world only "renders" when you look at it

Not a shred of evidence supports this either. It's a neat little idea to think about, however there's no reason to think us looking at something makes it render into existence. This is one of the things laypeople wrongly assume when they read simplified versions of experiments done in quantum mechanics. They read a headline on some popular science website that says "Outcome of experiment changes when being observed!", and they assume the presence of a conscious observer changes the outcome, but this is far from the truth. The act of observing inherently implies the act of interaction, and it is the act of interaction that causes the outcome of the experiment to change, which becomes extremely obvious when put in a non-confusing way. To be clear, interactions happen trillions of times a second all around us and in the rest of the universe too. Interaction isn't necessarily something that humans consciously cause, many, many things in the world of physics are classified as interactions. Particles act as waves until an interaction with another particle causes a wave function collapse, making the particle "solidify" so to speak. This can be said to be slightly analogous of "rendering", but to imply that it's us looking at something causing this is silly. Our conscious experience is a tiny, tiny part of a vast universe absolutely filled with interactions that cause particles to "render". The universe was being "rendered" for billions of years before the conditions in it were even close to supporting life, so consciousness was obviously out of the question back then.

>you cannot state for certain that is not true

Again, I'll refer you to the earlier part of this post where I brought up the burden of proof. You don't get to make a claim and go "prove me wrong", you're supposed to be the one proving yourself right. Just because something can't be proven wrong doesn't make it a valid idea. I could think of a hundred ideas that can't be proven wrong but are utter nonsense. Some of them could even contradict each other yet by your logic they should be seriously considered because they can't be proven wrong? That's called unfalsifiability and unfasifiable claims are immediately dismissed in any serious discussion because of their inherent nature.

>learn to let go of the hate in your heart it serves you no good

I get your point with this, but I wouldn't call my sentiment hateful. I'm a deeply curious person who gathers as much information as possible and loves discussions. I know each and every one of us is an ape stumbling in the dark, but that's no reason to just give up on logic, reason and the pursuit of knowledge. People who are the most knowledgeable are also the most aware of just how many things we don't yet know, but this doesn't make it a free-for-all where anyone's opinion on anything is just as valid as anyone else's. A polymath will have a far better foundation in forming their personal worldview than someone uneducated and uninterested in the pursuit of information.

>its a waste of energy its a waste of your time
>stop thinking you can change anyone you cannot and you never will
>and so you come out the conversation having wasted your energy getting angry about things that do not matter

I beg to differ. There are a few people whose beliefs I've changed through discussions such as this, and my own views have been changed several times by listening to people who were clearly very informed on the topic they were presenting. In fact, I mentioned in my previous post how I don't think there's such a thing as free will, and that is one of the things on which my view was changed from the core just a few years ago. I had an extremely strong belief in free will that was completely shattered, so if you think I'm closed-minded towards ideas that contradict my current view, you're wrong. It''s just that I filter these ideas through harsh scrutiny. How exactly are our views changed if not though being exposed to new ideas through discussions and debates such as this? You make it sound as if people's views are absolutely static and all discussion is futile, which I don't believe to be the case. I don't consider it a waste of my time because I enjoy the time spent in discussions such as these. And I'm not really angry either. I said I hate the spread of lies and it causes me slight annoyance when I see it, but I'm not sitting at my computer with a red face and smoke coming out of my ears. If it was affecting me negatively emotionally, you can bet your ass I wouldn't be engaging anyone in such conversations. The enjoyment of even having an exchange of ideas more than balances out the annoyance of some people's ideas being delusional.

Props to you if you're actually reading through all of this shit.
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Cornelius Berringhood - Wed, 03 Apr 2019 19:38:47 EST ID:DMJRJOPP No.894615 Ignore Report Reply
I have a side question for you all who have elevated themselves to another plane from using psychedelics.. I personally have smoked a fuck ton of weed, had some really psychedelic visions of my life and the world from it, have dropped acid about 5 or 6 times and have seen the patterns of life revealed, have seen how "fake" everything is, just the usual existential acid experience.. I actually think I've elevated my view further by smoking weed than dropping acid, maybe I didn't do enough.

Anyway, how do you all live functional lives with having your perception of the world so skewed by a drug that hardly anyone uses? For me it's just kind of scared me into a corner and has made me a bit of a burnout. Like seeing the uncomfortable unknown by getting high has taken away all my desire to live a life.

How can anyone who's taken tons of drugs and completely changed their perspective by tripping possibly live a functional life? All I want is to take away some of the stuff I've seen and thought about because I don't know if it's healthy at all for living a "normal" life. Maybe most people who trip hard don't worry about living a normal life.. but then what do they do
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Hedda Beblinghood - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 08:03:33 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894624 Ignore Report Reply
>>894615
>I've elevated my view
>it's just kind of scared me into a corner
>getting high has taken away all my desire to live a life

You know, the second and third of these statements kind of contradict the first. I wouldn't call it an elevation of your views if it's interfering with the quality of your normal life. That means that you're either going down the wrong path or that your journey down the right path isn't over yet. Without more detail about what exactly you mean by "elevated view" it will be difficult for anyone to offer good advice. Maybe none of us here have taken away the same conclusions from our experiences with drugs, and perhaps everyone else's idea of an elevated view differs from yours. Maybe you're perceiving the "uncomfortable unknown" differently than others. Before you let the stuff you've seen on drugs change your outlook on life, ask yourself if there's actually any merit or truth to what drugs have "shown" you.
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Jack Sevingway - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 09:29:10 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894627 Ignore Report Reply
>>894615
>How can anyone who's taken tons of drugs and completely changed their perspective by tripping possibly live a functional life?

You just do? Shit's easy. Fucking niggas thinking life is all about binary choices everywhere. You don't need to pick between A and B. We got letters in the alphabet from A to Z. Use some creativity chucklefuck.
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Shitting Furrydidge - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 12:05:23 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894628 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894610
The fact that there dismissed does not mean they are untrue and nor should they not be discussed if you cannot prove something does not mean it does not exist, some place could exist far away in the galaxy that exists in the universe but is otherwise unobservable by us humans just like discussion of aliens is taken seriously even though aliens are technically unfalsifiable it is ok to discuss them and bring them up stop acting like science is a cult in which has the ultimate rule of what humans can and cannot discuss again it brings it up to the superiority complex.

Filtering everything through one specific lense will not get you closer to the truth in my opinion because that itself is a bias I am not saying that the scientific method is not useful I am saying others use other lenses to filter there existence and there is nothing you can do to make other's feel the same way you do UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO THEMSELVES.

and this is where I have to explain to you because you missed the entire fucking point of what I said YES PEOPLE CAN BE CHANGED IF THEY CHOOSE TO THEMSELVES THIS IS SUCH OBVIOUS THING THAT I DID NOT STATE IT BECAUSE I ASSUMED IT WAS A GIVEN THAT YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT.

Also where is your burden of proof when you say there is no free will your making an unfalsifiable claim right there

I was not arguing for or against sollpism I was merely using it as an example to illustrate my point.

You fail time and time again to understand what I am saying and it has become personal now you want to prove me wrong.

And you still have not answered my question why you feel it is your duty to correct there ideas what is your personal psychological reason.

You know what I think it is arrogance you want to prove yourself superior to others.

You want to put yourself on a pedestal and say that you are better than everyone else.

I choose to make this post you choose to respond to me THAT IS ME EXERTING MY WILL onto the world.

the idea that there is no such thing as free will sounds like the most brainlet thing I have ever heard

I am not saying that what you think is wrong, or your argument is wrong they just may very well be delusional.

I am questioning your need to complain about it is not the argument I am calling into question I am calling your need to attack others for what they think.

You can understand this very simple argument, others can and will choose to believe in whatever and you can choose to try and change there minds but if they will not listen there is nothing you can do to change their minds if you think of yourself as superior then you are just acting from a place of pride and being an asshole.

Now you are making the assumption that you are correct and they are wrong and then asking others to validate what you think.

so it is self-validation because your not arguing with them on there level your making the assumption that they are wrong and then coming on a board and going

THOSE HIPPIE PEOPLE ARE DELUSIONAL RETARDED PEOPLE AMIRITE BOIS AYYY LMAO LETS CIRCLEJERK ABOUT THIS.

your doing it in a well spoken and roundabout way but that is for all intensive purposes what you are doing

Everyone lies everyone hides there true motivations behind there words just like you are now I try to speak my truth as clearly as I can because we humans are not rational robots it is not our top priority, in fact humans are emotional creatures that care more about feelings than facts they care about pride more than they care about the actual argument they are making.

that is why you cannot understand me because you think i'm attacking your arguement no i am not i am attacking the fundamental motivations for you making the arguement in the first place you see you could be nice and just go whatever man when they tell you about there spirituality and move on with your life but it irks you it bothers you

The reason why it bothers you is what I am questioning.

Now this is a hard pill to swallow, but you are putting yourself above others and then looking for others to validate your superiority.

I am not here to argue with your OP and the argument that you make in that post I am questioning your need to correct those you see not adhering to your system of thinking.

that is elitist thinking it is trying to make yourself seem more superior you could have worded it like this

Psychedelics and the propensity for mystical beliefs do you think they occur because of the drugs or is it that people who have those beliefs are attracted to those drugs

And I probably would not have even bothered responding because it does not make three assumptions.

that those beliefs are delusional
and that you are superior outer group who does not think that way
And also that everyone who reads the post automatically agrees with you because they are entering under the premise that spiritual beliefs are delusional.

In other words you are attempting to rally around your idea to make what "Irks" you validated so you can feel better about yourself.

TL DR: I am critiquing your character, not your argument

You are very smart but you are not at all wise do not mistake the two
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Rebecca Domblefield - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 12:23:35 EST ID:rgQJHmrJ No.894630 Ignore Report Reply
>>894628
Learn some punctuation man. This is almost unintelligible as you're missing several pronouns. I'm not part of this discussion I just saw the thread in passing and tried reading some people's responses and this here is almost word salad my friend.
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Rebecca Domblefield - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 12:24:38 EST ID:rgQJHmrJ No.894631 Ignore Report Reply
>>894630
Sorry for the runon sentence there. I'm on break at work.
Polite nb
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Shitting Furrydidge - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 12:46:13 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894632 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894630
I do not care I grow tired of this thread this has been going as the main thread at the top of /psy/ and I grow tired of this dumbass not understanding a word I am saying and then retards like you who come to criticize grammar, etc.... I only go on 420 chan when I am high.

it is literally called 420 chan you brain let how on earth do you expect people to maintain any semblance of spelling and grammar when fucking stoned posting.

In otherworld you are a faggot troll with nothing meaningful to add.

Hop in join the fucking conversation cunt, give an opinion, do not just criticize others fucking writing what is the point jesus christ people you have a few decades before your body atrophies and you fucking die and this is what you choose to waste your time on.

what did I expect it is the fucking internet everyone is just a fucking troll or idiot wasting away his days getting into arguments for no other reason than to feel a rush and yet you actually come to no solutions or try to understand each other it is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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Hedda Beblinghood - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 14:26:24 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894636 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894628
> if you cannot prove something does not mean it does not exist

You're using the wrong approach here. Like I said in my previous post, I can think of a whole bunch of nonsense that you can't prove wrong, yet it has absolutely no merit. A theory that can't be proven wrong and has no proof going for it is likely completely useless and isn't even worth any consideration. You're putting unfalsifiable ideas in the same category as ideas that actually have proof going in favor of them, which is naive to put it lightly. I assumed you were familiar with the concept of burden of proof, but clearly you are not. Let me use a famous analogy to demonstrate my point - Russel's teapot. Bertrand Russell claimed that there was a teapot orbiting our Sun, that's too far away and too small to be seen even with our most powerful telescopes. As you can see, this claim is impossible to prove wrong, i.e. it's unfalsifiable. Should we then assume that this claim is correct, given that it can't be proven wrong? Anyone with a grain of reason will say no, and this goes for all the other ideas that have absolutely no proof going for them and happen to be unfalsifiable. This is exactly why unfalsifiable claims are immediately dismissed in any remotely serious discussion.

>YES PEOPLE CAN BE CHANGED IF THEY CHOOSE TO THEMSELVES

Thanks for the caps lock, my guy. I addressed this point earlier, but I assume you're not really reading my posts. The very idea of freely choosing is an illusion. Of course it's up to the person themselves if they'll accept a certain idea or not, but in order for them to accept the idea, the very first thing that needs to happen is for them to be exposed to the idea. So, I can bring about someone's change by exposing them to the idea. It's not me directly changing someone, but if that person would otherwise remain unexposed to the idea, then I had a key role in the shift of their view.

>Also where is your burden of proof when you say there is no free will your making an unfalsifiable claim right there

This is not an unfalsifiable claim. I'd recommend Sam Harris's appropriately titled book Free Will if you want to actually learn more about this topic. It's not a very long read and it explains in a very easy to understand way why exactly free will is an illusion. The gist of it is this - the "decisions" that we think we made are actually made by our brain chemistry before this information even reaches the conscious part of our mind. So clearly the conscious part of our mind can't be the one responsible for making "free" choices, since chronologically, the choice is made before we are even aware of it. This has been proven through an experiment. Test subjects were given a simple "choice" between two options - left and right, while the scientists monitor their brain activity. The subjects are told to inform the experimenters as soon as they're absolutely sure about their "choice". Yet, at the moment when the test subjects report making a choice, the scientists have been aware of their choice for several seconds in advance, sometimes up to 10. So, if someone is able to tell with certainty 10 seconds in advance what choice you're about to make before you yourself are aware of it, clearly this freedom of choice is an illusion. With better brain monitoring technology, your choices that you perceive to be free could be reliably predicted much longer in advance, way before you are consciously even aware of them.

>You fail time and time again to understand what I am saying and it has become personal now you want to prove me wrong.

I'm not failing to understand what you're saying, I'm explaining to you why the things you are saying are either wrong or don't make a lick of sense. You clearly aren't very familiar with terms like burden of proof and unfalsifiablity, so you're having trouble following along with my posts. I'm addressing all of your "points" in a calm and collected way and I'm in no way taking it personally. It's obvious who's taking it personally, since you've resorted to the lowest form of argument - ad hominem - several times now, all while preaching how the views of your fellow man should be respected. I'm actually doing a much better job at respecting other's views than you, even though you're the one who imagines himself to be accepting and tolerant of opposing views. Extremely hypocritical of you.

>I was not arguing for or against sollpism I was merely using it as an example to illustrate my point.

And your point is moot and has been deconstructed several times now, but evidently burden of proof and unfalsifiability still aren't truly ringing a bell for you. I suggest reading a bit more about these topics, starting from Russell's teapot, as mentioned earlier.

>And you still have not answered my question why you feel it is your duty to correct there ideas

I told you I enjoy discussion in and of itself, there needn't be an end goal to it. So no, I don't see it as a duty but if my thoughts cause someone else to do some thinking, I'd be pretty happy about that. I'm also happy when someone else gives me things to think about in an exchange of ideas.

>You want to put yourself on a pedestal and say that you are better than everyone else.

If you had actually been reading my posts, you'd be aware that I am always willing to learn from people who I know are better informed than me and I am humbled by knowledgeable, intelligent and talented people. If I imagined myself to be superior to everyone else, then I would be absolutely closed to any knowledge anyone has to share, yet I couldn't be more open to new knowledge.

>THAT IS ME EXERTING MY WILL onto the world

True. There is a will, but it is not free. That's the key thing to understand about the whole topic of free will. It's the freedom part that is the illusion, not the will part.

>attack others for what they think.

Again, you're being a lot more hostile in this discussion than me. I feel like you're truly blind to the fact that I'm responding to you in a much more civil way than you're responding to me. You are projecting your own intolerance and attacks against a different view onto me. Ironic, really.

>but if they will not listen there is nothing you can do to change their minds

I never implied otherwise. Again, even if nobody's opinion is changed, I simply enjoy talking about ideas. Something that you clearly cannot wrap your head around since you've responded with personal attacks several times now while accusing me of attacking people.

>THOSE HIPPIE PEOPLE ARE DELUSIONAL RETARDED PEOPLE AMIRITE BOIS

Your reading comprehension is practically non-existent. I addressed this a couple of replies ago. I told you, the point of the thread wasn't to discuss if those people's views are delusional (they are), the topic was the connection between psychedelics and delusions. I will welcome anyone with an opposing view if they are able to present it in a calm way and without falling victim to logical fallacies.

>that is why you cannot understand me because you think i'm attacking your arguement

So basically, you're openly admitting that it is not my argument you're attacking, but me as a person? Once again, this is called an ad hominem attack and this the absolute lowest form of "argument". If you don't have anything to say about the points I'm raising then your posts are worthless. You're calling me arrogant because you can't refute any of my arguments and you perceive this as me feeling superior. Have you stopped to wonder if maybe you're feeling inferior because you're unable to actually address any of my arguments? I see that you're losing your temper and perceiving me as being arrogant even though I've given you no reason to either be angry or think I have some sort of superiority complex.

>The reason why it bothers you

Again, I'm not bothered at all. I would appreciate it if you had some valid talking points though.
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Hedda Beblinghood - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 14:27:23 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894637 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894628
...continued

>that is elitist thinking

You don't know what elitism is. Elitism is wanting to segregate yourself from people you find inferior. I'm inviting everyone to consider new ideas and cleanse themselves from delusional thinking. So you're making contradicting claims. If I'm trying to make everyone think like me (more rationally), then I'm obviously not elitist because if I were, I'd be perfectly happy with delusional people staying delusional, and this is the exact opposite of what an ideal scenario looks like in my mind.

>spiritual beliefs are delusional

We've been over this, you have the memory of a goldfish. I never said spiritual beliefs are delusional. I said delusional beliefs are delusional. Delusion has a very clear definition and it's very easy to see which beliefs are delusional and which are not. That's not me classifying beliefs as delusional or not. That's me simply understanding the definition of the word delusion and applying it appropriately.

>In other words you are attempting to rally around your idea to make what "Irks" you validated so you can feel better about yourself.

No, for the 12th time now, I'm attempting to start a discussion about how/if the ingestion of psychedelic drugs is tied to delusional beliefs. Delusions are a well documented side-affect of taking any hallucinogen, so it's really not such a far-fetched topic at all. What interests me is the potential of psychedelics to extend delusions into your sober life instead of just causing temporary ones during the psychedelic experience itself.

>you are not at all wise

I never claimed myself to be wise. Like I previously said, I think wisdom is a product of knowledge and experience, and I am still accumulating both. It'll take many more years for me to reach a point where I could be considered very wise. However, from what you've demonstrated so far, you do not even have the beginnings of a foundation to one day be wise. You need to learn a lot more before a path towards wisdom even begins. Wisdom won't just fall from the skies at a magic point in your life when you're in your 60s or something if you haven't been actively working on accumulating knowledge and exchanging ideas.

>>894632
>this dumbass

I just felt the need to point out once more that you're resorting to personal insults due to a lack of actual arguments, and all of that after the initial post where you were all for tolerance and respecting other people's views. You seem to be of the mindset that wanting to change someone's thinking so that it's less delusional shows a lack of respect for that person, but calling them a dumbass faggot is very respectful as long as you don't try to discuss their beliefs, lmao. Try to calm yourself before posting more replies, friend.
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Jack Sevingway - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 15:47:42 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.894638 Ignore Report Reply
Remember, spirituality has no other meaning than connecting to something. Feeling bigger than yourself.

That's all it is. If you visit a museum of natural history, and you're standing in front of an apatosaurus skeleton and space out in awe because it's huge... congratulations, you just had an intensely spiritual experience. If you eat two whole Toyota's and you zone the fuck out during an Ceephax Acid Crew set while dancing with total strangers... congratulations, you just had an intensely spiritually experience.

Religious cocksuckers have been forcing the idea through people's heads that spirituality is some deep hard process that takes a fuckton of work and enlightenment and study and FUCK RIGHT THE FUCK OFF.

Go fucking look at some fucking tree rings for half an hour. Wham. You experience something grander than yourself and goddamn it feels good. Fuck all that God UFO afterlife shit. That's for retarded cunts.

Get out there and connect to the universe. The REAL universe that's RIGHT HERE IN FRONT OF YOU, not some fake made up spook universe created by some dead cunts that ran society 2000 years ago.


Also...
The universe being deterministic and your subconscious already making choices before you become conscious of your choice don't really mean free will is impossible. It simply means that free will is different from how we used to see it. Similar to how quantum mechanics teaches us that empty space is completely empty, just not empty in a way that makes sense to us. After all, it's your choice. It's your subconscious that made that choice. Wouldn't it be logical that your subconscious would know your choice before you became conscious of it? The subconscious isn't some hidden mind that works behind your conscious back. It's literally just the machining that makes your consciousness work. Without your subconsciousness preparing the choice your conscious self makes, you couldn't make a choice at all, right?
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Cornelius Gindergold - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 16:38:35 EST ID:ZnYGiots No.894639 Ignore Report Reply
>>894632
I am telling you that no one can understand you. That means they cannot even contribute to the conversation if they wanted to, you moron. I was going to see what the bickering was about, but it is now evident that these folks are being generous with their time and trying(failing) to teach you. I would usually interject an opinion or idea and as always say "agree to disagree", but it's clear you are so belligerently fucking retarded that we can't even stop to catch our collective breath and get on track. Move over "God" we have ourselves a new village idiot.
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Shitting Furrydidge - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 16:43:51 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894640 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894637
Im dropping out of this thread because i think all i want to say has been said

one last thing though

you are ignoring and cherrypicking your own words you state that you are trying to have open discussion but in your OP you stated that thinking was mumbo jumbo that is not trying to have people come in and openly discuss there beliefs when your OP is ridiculing them

>So what is it with the link between psychedelics and pseudo-scientific mystical spiritual New Age mumbo jumbo? You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't you? Why is it that these people are able to say so many words without conveying a single thought? Having been on /psy/ and similar communities on the internet, I've found that it's not just some crazy small minority, there are actually a lot of people with vague, undefined spiritual beliefs that they are completely unable to explain but will still act smug and call you out for relying on scientific explanations of the psychedelic experience as if you're the foolish, naive one.

you are literally ridiculing them that is not inviting anyone to discuss there beliefs it is asking people who you assume already agree with you AMIRITE BOYS

now i know you addressed this but you fail to see that was my point and my only point

and it is only an ad homniem attack if i was arguing with your original point but you do not get that i am not arguing with your point i am presenting a question to you only loosely related to your original post

also calling people faggots is the common language of anonymous chan posting it means literally nothing i think of it as being apart of the culture as it where speaking the common language i am on the future most of the time and i do not know if you noticed but calling someone a faggot is the most common thing on that website that it becomes force of habit
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Shitting Furrydidge - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 16:45:42 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894641 Ignore Report Reply
>>894640
fucking 4 c h an autocorrects to the future whos fucking stupid idea was that
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Shitting Furrydidge - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 16:48:25 EST ID:F+/OMs9e No.894642 Ignore Report Reply
>>894639
It is not my fault your a brainlet and cannot read
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Thomas Wopperchurk - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:38:48 EST ID:dzmvq7BQ No.894645 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894640
>Im dropping out of this thread

Of course you are, because you got BTFO
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Wesley Worthingwill - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:50:23 EST ID:Xcx3gu+e No.894647 Ignore Report Reply
This is a really great thread
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Graham Shakeford - Thu, 04 Apr 2019 23:21:20 EST ID:+6Zp5YI7 No.894654 Ignore Report Reply
>>894642
I can read, you just can't write right. What is this "brainlet" nonsense there? You seem like a capricious little faggot. Why would anyone trust the ideas or opinions of someone so outwardly childish? Your behavior here is indicative of someone with the distinct inability to form a complete thought. It shows in your shit brained disjointed writing style. Devoid of content or validity you reduce yourself to ad hominim garbage, it's pathetic.
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Jack Seffingspear - Fri, 05 Apr 2019 07:08:31 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894662 Ignore Report Reply
>>894638
I agree with you completely about the spirituality part. Sam Harris, who happens to talk about free will in his books a lot, has also written about the topic of spirituality without religion and how spirituality can be a completely secular phenomenon. If you haven't read his work and this is something that interests you, I highly recommend Harris's book Waking Up. Like most of his works, it's short and sweet, wasting no time getting to the point.

I want to address what you said about free will though. If determinism is in fact true, then that eliminates any and all possibility of any kind of freedom of will, conscious or unconscious. This is because determinism implies that the entire history of the universe was set in stone from the big bang, according to the initial parameters of the universe. So, even though this all happened almost 14 billion years ago, your existence and every single choice you will ever make was already set in motion from that very moment. All the particles shooting out and spreading through an ever-expanding universe move and react with each other in predictable ways, according to the four fundamental forces in physics, which means that a computer powerful enough to track and calculate the future path of every single one of those particles could literally predict the entire history of the universe with 100% accuracy just from the starting parameters.

Determinism by its nature implies that each moment in time, each specific configuration of particles, is determined by the previous one and it's a chain reaction that goes back all the way to the beginning of the universe, and will continue to happen until the eventual heat death of the universe. It implies that there is only one possible sequence of events starting from one set of initial conditions. If the universe were to begin again with the same exact starting parameters, then the history of the universe would play out exactly as it played out the first time, including all the choices every human has ever made. Life and consciousness emerge from this complex dance of particles, but at no point do they "break free" from the laws of physics. At the most fundamental level, the particles that make up your brain chemistry still act as the fundamental forces dictate. Opposite charges attract each other, like charges repel each other, objects with mass attract each other but weakly, etc. Since it is the particles in your brain that literally dictate your choices, and the behavior of the particles is dictated by the laws of physics, I don't see it as freedom of will on any level. The brain is simply an input/output machine. If every moment in your life is determined at the very beginning of the universe, then there's really no freedom to speak of.

Now, all of this is only true if determinism is correct, which is up for debate. I'm not quite sure determinism is correct because quantum mechanics seems to bring true randomness into our understanding of the universe, and if there's randomness then there's no true, hard determinism. However, even if random quantum mechanical phenomena actually change the course of history of the universe through a butterfly effect, free will still doesn't fit into this view. The very definition of free will implies conscious control over our own actions, and there is absolutely no control to speak of, because freedom of will implies making choices unimpeded. But, our choices are impeded and out of our control however you choose to look at it. If determinism is true, then our choices were set in stone from the start and are therefore not under our control. If determinism is not true and quantum mechanics has truly random factors, then our choices are dictated by random events and are still not under our control. It's not merely a matter of out subconscious preparing a choice before it reaches our conscious, it's a matter of our entire brain, conscious and subconscious, being no more than a very complex molecular machine that has no choice but to do as its molecular structure dictates. Some people think that the brain has an ability to control the random factors introduced by quantum mechanics, but any physicist specializing in QM will scoff at the idea, because the brain is far too warm and noisy for the extremely delicate QM effects to sustain themselves. For all intents and purposes, the brain as an isolated system is completely deterministic.

I feel like I could have done a much better job explaining this, but I'd rather refer you to Harris's work again. His book Free Will deals with the topic in much greater detail than is feasible on an internet image board, but still isn't huge or trying to overwhelm you with big words. Sam has a really nice style of writing where he is able to present fairly complex topics in an easy to understand way. I highly recommend it, you can easily find a free PDF by Googling it.
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Mew !hazU9x3MtA - Fri, 05 Apr 2019 16:07:51 EST ID:6b0rvHKi No.894667 Ignore Report Reply
>>894133
You should go to /dis/ it's literally "this thread again" for every thread on that board. It's like they are perma stuck in timelessness. Well at least while they continue to dose up hahahaha.
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Albert Panninglet - Sun, 07 Apr 2019 09:19:07 EST ID:ly4WPlgP No.894692 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894610
Free will is one I flip on often. For now I choose to think that at the very least the illusion can help us cope. Otherwise what can we do? There is more to a life than dice rolls and we all make decisions. Today I am choosing to take 3.5g of shrooms not because I am compelled by my body, but because I think the effects on my mind are worth experiencing. The problem with it is that it is essentially a 'feeling' just like you can feel like you remember something even if it has not occurred before. Psychs demonstrate this wonderfully.
Things like magic mushrooms increase the chance of experiencing false mind states. I personally always get extreme dejavu (which I revel in by the way). I will see something novel but my malfunctioning brain will give me the 'flag' for 'you 100% have seen this before' even if my consciousness can rationally deduce that I have absolutely not at the same time. This, to me, exposes how the brain works a little bit: We don't only consciously know things, you also have a background process that can feed you a feeling of knowing or a feeling of satisfaction completely asynchronous to actual knowledge. I would guess as some way to speed up deduction, like viewing the sender of a letter instead of the contents. Does that make sense? I just woke up.

To the point of the thread: people that are prone to mysticism see these false images and are also given separate flags for "You absolutely know something profound" and end up with a misconception that they have some secret, unexplainable knowledge, when they really only have some false expectations of connectedness. We know there is nothing specific too it as every user has wildly different visions and can be influenced by their current state of mind. I, to be fair, have never taken DMT or a very high dose, but that is my hypothesis for now.

>an application of Occam's razor to this topic quickly demonstrates that this requires many assumptions to be made
While I find it and interesting thought experiment, the boltzmann brain type concepts always felt a bit far-fetched. This was insightful and put some words in my mouth, thank you.
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Simon Pongergold - Sun, 07 Apr 2019 14:21:53 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894696 Ignore Report Reply
>>894692
Great input, I really like your thoughts on the deja vu that many people, myself included, experience on psychedelics. What you describe as a "flag" that get triggered is how I think of it was well. Putting psychedelics in your brain is akin to hacking a computer, rewiring it and getting results that weren't necessarily part of the original "design". I read that deja vu in a sober state is often triggered by visual stimuli because part of it gets "lost" and stimulates parts of the brain that are responsible for handling memory. Since the visual cortex is at the very back of the brain, the signal has to travel from the eyes through the optical duct all the way through the brain, and there's a chance that part of the signal disperses on its way to the visual cortex, causing a brief feeling of having experienced the current moment before. So in theory, memories could be implanted in your "memory center" and you'd be none the wiser. As far as the brain is concerned, a false memory would be just as real as a memory of an actual event, even if the false memory happens to have impossible contents. Basically, errors in the ways the brain processes information result in weird, sometimes otherworldly experiences that many people interpret as mystical.

I agree with your hypothesis on the topic of the thread. I actually think it's a mix of factors - people attracted to mysticism are by extension attracted to psychedelics as well, because they're widely known for causing spiritual/mystical experiences. Then, after taking them, the experience starts to feed into what they already used to believe, reinforcing their ideas. I believe it's basically a big ol' case of confirmation bias. No matter what the experience shows you, you jump through mental gymnastics if necessary to make this new "evidence" fit into an already established view. As you said, this "enlightenment" contains nothing specific, which is why I think the descriptions of these experiences are also extremely vague and unspecific. Like I said in an earlier post, it's a pure feeling of enlightenment without any substance to it. Since feelings can't be properly explained, people who go through such experiences struggle to give any useful information but remain convinced that they went through something profound. I'm not immune to this either, of course. I've gone through experiences where I felt like I was on the urge of the greatest discovery of my entire life, but it was just a fancy shell wrapped around an empty void. If I wasn't skeptical and untrustworthy of my own thought processes, I could have easily been convinced that I was personally touched by the hand of god/the oneness and gifted sacred knowledge that is, paradoxically, completely undefined.

As for the free will, I do think the illusion serves a sort of coping mechanism, but is an illusion nonetheless. In fact, the illusion of free will might serve an important purpose in keeping us sane, as I believe many people would start losing their minds if they somehow suddenly became aware that they are simply conscious automatons. It's an extremely uncomfortable truth and I struggled with it myself for months after facing the facts surrounding free will. A trip I had on a fairly heavy dose of LSD a few years ago shattered my perception completely. During it, I felt a sudden complete disconnect from the conscious part of my mind that I perceive to be "me" and the mental processes that are in control of my body. My body was a completely separate entity leading me around while "I" was stuck inside and merely along for the ride. My body would already be doing something and only seconds later would my consciousness "catch up". My awareness was constantly lagging several seconds behind my body, destroying all notion of me being in control. It was terrifying because I had no idea where it was going, and I started wondering if there was some malevolent force actually guiding my body like a puppet. I was starting to get delusional in my panic. If my body had decided to jump off a bridge I would have to simply watch in horror as is walks itself to the bridge and then takes the leap. The uncertainty of what would happen and the lack of control was truly horrifying beyond explanation. I couldn't even inform my friends who were there of what was happening to me, because my mouth is part of my body and speaking was out of my control as well as my movement. However, after a while of this happening I realized my body was pretty good at taking care of itself and didn't have any self-destructive tendencies, even without me thinking I was in the driver's seat. It was as if the reptilian brain took over most of my functions while the conscious part of it was tripping absolute balls. It became the most amazing thing that I've ever gone through after the initial panic subsided. An amazing, mind-bending exploration of how the mind works and a realization that the idea of control I used to have was absolutely laughable. I laughed hysterically at myself and it was one of the most incredible and most humbling experiences in my life.

>Things like magic mushrooms increase the chance of experiencing false mind states

Agreed. People think that simply making this claim means you're dismissing the usefulness of psychedelics completely, but to me it makes perfect sense that an experience that shakes up your perception as much as psychedelics will expose some truths but will also make you more susceptible to false mind states. False mind states occur extremely often even in a sober state of mind, our brains are prone to all sorts of illusions even when not intoxicated, so to think your brain is somehow more capable of resolving truths while intoxicated is foolish. Psychedelics put the brain into overdrive so to speak, so there's lots of potential there to expose truths, but there's also lots of potential to lose yourself in delusions. I think filtering these experiences through a sober lens the day after tripping is crucial.
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Reuben Hadgeworth - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 08:16:09 EST ID:ly4WPlgP No.894717 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894696
Knowing what can't be controlled is always helpful.
I had a similar experience to you yesterday. It took constant work to tell myself that no harm was coming to me, almost like chanting a status check ("im not dead, still breathing, only good things" etc). Though this my consciousness was able to either cut off completely or focused only on good things. I got the feeling that negativity can be not only unwarranted but overwhelmingly forced by that same animal brain. This is well known of course ( I see a lot of this in stoic and buddhist philosophy), but really getting that view off it cemented it in me a bit. Hopefully I can learn and practice that kind of thinking in waking life. If nothing else I appreciate abstract art more than before.

Consider the following as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DNmsMOqGWk&t=651s
He can rationally deduce that the beings he saw on the trip were probably from his own mind. But at the same time he feels that there was something real to them. He decides it doesn't matter and takes the lessons taught and practices them. Everyone says "dont take yourself to seriously", hell I bet the speaker told himself that all the time, but experiencing it inside the 'soul' of the brain can really break it in.
I think I can give mystics some credit thinking on it. Imagine never taking LSD and being slipped a tab in the middle of church or something. You'd get lost in it.
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Alice Honeyspear - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 09:25:56 EST ID:+BcYWCUD No.894722 Ignore Report Reply
Whether or not something is real isn't dependent upon verification of the factual basis of a given set of events between different people. One's perception and interpretation of reality can be wildly inaccurate to the point of delusion, but that doesn't make the experience any individual person has any less real.

What we consider to be the standard for judging a given experience or event's apparent realness is such an oversimplified, highly generalized approximation of what was believed to have occurred that it borders on parody that we actually consider whatever interpretation we happen to "agree" (and I use that term very loosely) upon as a valid or reliable metric for judging how real something is or not.
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Ian Goodford - Mon, 08 Apr 2019 14:19:01 EST ID:pwUakdTT No.894728 Ignore Report Reply
>>894717
>He can rationally deduce that the beings he saw on the trip were probably from his own mind. But at the same time he feels that there was something real to them.

Yeah, I can get behind that. Sometimes during my trips, I follow trains of thought that are obviously nonsense from the start, because at times, the conclusion can be useful despite being basically nonsense. For example, a train of thought that is something completely ridiculous might end up being a very useful metaphor for something else entirely. I often get these sort of experiences on psychedelics where something that seems trivial on a surface level ends up conveying much deeper meaning, and I assume I'm far from being alone on that. A few months ago, someone from this board posted about what I'll call "constructive delusions" even though that term wasn't used during that discussion. But the gist of it is - you sort of allow yourself some delusional thinking despite being aware that it's delusional if it happens to be beneficial. I'm not sure I'd purposefully allow myself a prolonged delusion, but during a trip this can be useful advice because I'll let the experience take me wherever it wants instead of cutting it off as soon as I notice that my train of thought is illogical. Only later do I actually worry about what parts of the trip were useful and which were just fun.

>>894722
>One's perception and interpretation of reality can be wildly inaccurate to the point of delusion, but that doesn't make the experience any individual person has any less real

There's a difference between something feeling real and being real. From the perspective of the human being, there are two "realities" - an internal, subjective model of reality and a shared, objective reality. Through our limited senses, we are only able to get a subjective model of the objective shared reality, so everyone will have their own little isolated, personalized model of reality, that is subjective and somewhat flexible. It's important to realize that it is our internal model of reality that is subjective and flexible, not the shared reality itself. So, a delusion might feel 100% real in terms of the subjective experience of the delusional person, but that's a different usage of the word real than the more precise one, which relates to the shared, objective reality. When I call something real, what I mean by that is that it belongs to a shared, objective reality and isn't something that just feels real in a person's internal model of reality. Just because an experience feels real, I don't think it's appropriate to deem the experience real. So for example, a colorblind person may see the color red as the color green and vice versa, and that experience is "real" to them in a very loose sense, but in objective reality, the wavelengths of light that he perceives as green actually fall in the red range and the ones he perceives as red fall in the green range. So to call his experience real is a stretch. Of course, even normally functioning eyes are only able to perceive a very small part of the entire spectrum of light, but will still give people without colorblindness a slightly more accurate internal model of the objective reality surrounding them. To be clear, I'm not calling either of these two experiences real, I'm just trying to demonstrate the contrast between these two different kinds of "realities". You could of course say that perhaps what we think of as reality is in fact a computer simulation and therefore not real, but even i something like that is true, the word real still refers to a shared, objective reality and it being artificial or not is irrelevant.
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:32:34 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894988 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
Don't quit your day job. People like you don't belong in the community.
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:37:14 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894989 Ignore Report Reply
You all are truly sincerely a bunch of snitches. If you actually think there's any credibility to "mental illness" besides containing drug users you're a serious pawn. It's an obvious attempt to smear and discredit anybody who does drugs and you're just eating it up like it carries any scientific weight to it. It's the same bullshit government logic that labels people as "criminals" with "criminal minds".
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:42:51 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894990 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
You realize that if something like LSD hit the mainstream that large Pharmacudical corporate interests would lose all their profits?? That the only thing standing between LSD becoming a household name full legalization and widespread useage is the standard "reefer madness" that big pharma pushes onto socirty. That some made up "mental illness" called "schizophrenia" is the only conceptual framework that is capable of protecting massive government drug profits. You realize anti psychs are literal chemical lobotomies that cause massive amounts of brain damage that is irreversible. Not only are pharmacudicals more dangerous than psychadelics but you're sitting here buying 1960s reefer madness and acid madness propaganda that somehow still in circulation. You are all idiots, snitches, bitches, and probably informants.
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:44:35 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894991 Ignore Report Reply
>>894990
You think I'm kidding but those pharmacudical drugs make literal billions of dollars in profits. As soon as LSD becomes socially acceptable those billions of dollars are gone. I know people who would kill for 20k imagine just how many people they would kill imprison or worse to protect their literal billions of dollars in corporate profits.
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:55:11 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894992 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
Narcs. The whole lot of you. The literal definition of a Narc. What part of billions of dollars in drug profits for big pharma that you dont understand. They call us wild savages. Not only is is inherently racist directed at the spiritual religious element of native people's of indiginous cultures but there is statistical antropological evidence to support the claim that "schizophrenia" and mental illness itself was created by white settlers during the industriall revolution and the colonization of Africa Asia the Americas and every other continent on the face of the Earth to discredit and destroy the cultures and spiritual practices of native people's. The very idea of schizophrenia is antithetical to shamanism to native spirituality to their entire way of life religious beliefs and cultural practices. OPs entire post is just a racist rant against native cultures and their way of life. You all ashame and disgust me buying into this trite racist propaganda.
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:56:34 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894993 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
>>894056
Narcs. The whole lot of you. The literal definition of a Narc. What part of billions of dollars in drug profits for big pharma that you dont understand. They call us wild savages. Not only is is inherently racist directed at the spiritual religious element of native people's of indiginous cultures but there is statistical antropological evidence to support the claim that "schizophrenia" and mental illness itself was created by white settlers during the industriall revolution and the colonization of Africa Asia the Americas and every other continent on the face of the Earth to discredit and destroy the cultures and spiritual practices of native people's. The very idea of schizophrenia is antithetical to shamanism to native spirituality to their entire way of life religious beliefs and cultural practices. OPs entire post is just a racist rant against native cultures and their way of life. You all ashame and disgust me buying into this trite racist propaganda. What more should I expect from the future.
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:57:06 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894994 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
Narcs. The whole lot of you. The literal definition of a Narc. What part of billions of dollars in drug profits for big pharma that you dont understand. They call us wild savages. Not only is is inherently racist directed at the spiritual religious element of native people's of indiginous cultures but there is statistical antropological evidence to support the claim that "schizophrenia" and mental illness itself was created by white settlers during the industriall revolution and the colonization of Africa Asia the Americas and every other continent on the face of the Earth to discredit and destroy the cultures and spiritual practices of native people's. The very idea of schizophrenia is antithetical to shamanism to native spirituality to their entire way of life religious beliefs and cultural practices. OPs entire post is just a racist rant against native cultures and their way of life. You all ashame and disgust me buying into this trite racist propaganda. >>894056
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George Wennerfield - Sun, 21 Apr 2019 23:02:47 EST ID:p5RU2ngC No.894995 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056

>>894056
Narcs. The whole lot of you. The literal definition of a Narc. What part of billions of dollars in drug profits for big pharma that you dont understand. They call us wild savages. Not only is is inherently racist directed at the spiritual religious element of native people's of indiginous cultures but there is statistical antropological evidence to support the claim that "schizophrenia" and mental illness itself was created by white settlers during the industriall revolution and the colonization of Africa Asia the Americas and every other continent on the face of the Earth to discredit and destroy the cultures and spiritual practices of native people's. The very idea of schizophrenia is antithetical to shamanism to native spirituality to their entire way of life religious beliefs and cultural practices. OPs entire post is just a racist rant against native cultures and their way of life. You all ashame and disgust me buying into this trite racist propaganda. Shouldn't expect anything else from the future. I could go on I could produce and show the data and my studies but I digress. I shouldn't have to argue with such blatant ignorance.
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Augustus Pickwill - Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:59:22 EST ID:w5ZEj4G4 No.895040 Ignore Report Reply
>>894995
The idea that acknowledging legitimate mental disorders is racist is just fucking hilarious to me. If you've ever known people with schizophrenia you wouldn't insult them and everyone who works tirelessly to care for them by suggesting it isn't real or is somehow "manufactured". Stupid as fuck, if I could slap your bitch fucking face through my PC then I would. I'm as spiritual as the next guy, and it's people like you that make spirituality look like a dodgy fucking scheme to make money or an easy way to argue against the "norm".
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George Goodfoot - Thu, 25 Apr 2019 06:47:04 EST ID:i8HoPOq+ No.895047 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894995
You're a living, breathing parody of yourself, man, and an example of exactly the type of person I was talking about. Maybe you should google the "literal definition" of the word narc before throwing it around because you're just making yourself look like an idiot. Your rant about muh big pharma and schizophrenia has nothing to do with the post you're replying to. Are you schizophrenic? I'm seriously asking, because it sounds like some defense mechanism of yours got triggered and you're in some sort of damage control mode even though there wasn't even a mention of schizophrenia in the OP. If you do suffer from it, I would seriously advise you to seek professional help instead of trying to self-medicate with psychedelics. Of course, this advice will go right over your head because apparently your delusion goes so deep that you seriously believe it's a made up diagnosis altogether. Never mind the fact that there's a clear set of symptoms associated with the disorder, including persistent hallucinations in all senses. Do you think schizophrenia-induced hallucinations are a form of enlightenment? I bet you think people with schizophrenia are actually super woke and on a higher plane than people with healthy minds.

Those terrible immoral "big pharma" companies know a LOT more about biochemistry and neurochemistry than you do and even though your delusions might say otherwise, the schizophrenia medication made by these pharmaceutical companies is the most effective treatment we have so far. This might be hard to wrap your head around for you, but many of the people in pharmaceutical companies are there because they're trying their very best to make the best medicine they can. It's not a bunch of cartoonishly evil guys in suits and top hats holding money bags and twirling their mustaches as they laugh maniacally. I can't for the life of me understand how you somehow pulled the race card after reading the OP. That's an absolutely moronic statement to make, and you're making yourself look like a complete joke by even trying to go there in a lack of legitimate arguments. A post that talks about delusions made you think "wow that's racist against native tribes and their way of life"? Doesn't that mean that you think they live a deluded way of life, even though such a thing isn't even remotely implied in the OP? I love how people who believe themselves to be some warriors against racism often indirectly out themselves as having buried racist thoughts. Pic related. I couldn't agree more with >>895040, but I still urge you to seek professional help if you've actually gotten a schizophrenia diagnosis. Do yourself a favor.
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Basil Pobberpick - Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:02:58 EST ID:oEHznzun No.895074 Ignore Report Reply
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>>894120
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Reuben Funnerspear - Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:19:52 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.895078 Ignore Report Reply
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>>895047
Don't forget that a lot of those people in the pharma industry spend their off hours cooking up all kinds of illegal drugs.

There's a reason why the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland are big on illegal drugs production. A disproportionate amount of the population has studied chemistry and works in the pharmaceutical industry.
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NotSlaimShadyAtAll - Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:15:38 EST ID:bswic2N0 No.895107 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
i think that what you right is so fucking correct... but

you cant forget that the trips you have and the "messages" that make us grow have always been in our head and we could become freer in our thinking.
But with 1 mushroom or other psychadelic we can open these "doors" in a more heavenly way, as if you were going to see 1 movie from a book on film for the first time.
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Esther Brookforth - Thu, 09 May 2019 13:44:21 EST ID:hlfpVgss No.895284 Ignore Report Reply
Psychedelics can give you a glimpse at ineffable things for sure. It's not always bullshit when people say words can't capture it
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Matilda Trotville - Thu, 09 May 2019 13:48:14 EST ID:+TWFuyMM No.895285 Ignore Report Reply
>>895284
stories and poems even real life can capture small glimpses of facets
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Phyllis Pucklewater - Thu, 09 May 2019 16:38:26 EST ID:QVgISmEI No.895289 Ignore Report Reply
>>895284
Fucking doubt it tho, you have to be a wordsmith
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Molly Blankinkure - Thu, 09 May 2019 17:16:16 EST ID:Bq5ikQDR No.895291 Ignore Report Reply
>>895289
New to this discussion here and imho,
Some of my more intense trips that were in the ineffable territory took me almost 10 years to figure out how to describe. I'm a lot closer to being able to describe them now than I was right after they happened. I think there's different degrees of ineffable personally, and how far into that territory something is has more to do with how well versed you are as a student of life and how skilled you are from a literary standpoint. That's why I plug away about peoples' grammar on here and encourage well written pieces, because when we're trying to decipher ineffable random otherworldly shit the last thing we need to contend with is some fucking word salad that badly needs periods and commas or something all comma spliced to hell.
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Wesley Worthingshaw - Fri, 10 May 2019 12:59:36 EST ID:G74ZQ33A No.895299 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056
>what is it with the link between psychedelics and pseudo-scientific mystical spiritual New Age mumbo jumbo?
Quantum phsyics, specifically the Copenhagen Interpretation. Whackos treat it as a blank check for their wish thinking, but it is quite eloquent and structured in its own way.
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Wesley Worthingshaw - Fri, 10 May 2019 13:02:54 EST ID:G74ZQ33A No.895300 Ignore Report Reply
>>895291
Why bother trying to shave something ineffable down into almost the right words, that unltimately won't mean anything to anyone who hasn't experienced it for himself? Stop molesting it.
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Clara Dirrywell - Fri, 10 May 2019 18:30:31 EST ID:bDYMg8HY No.895305 Ignore Report Reply
>>895300
You're not "molesting" it you're relating it. This bridges the gap for people who have no experience and can help them see the virtues of it(if your viewpoint allows for virtues through it) without being misinformed or feeling scared. Also, it can be a very cathartic and therapeutic experience for the story teller. It allows the individual to reflect upon their experiences while having the community of their friends and family help them digest it into something more useful or meaningful to them personally and communally. Don't project so hard next time broseph stalin, ya gonna stain others' brain canvas.
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Eugene Sashfoot - Wed, 15 May 2019 03:32:24 EST ID:+zVqs3xZ No.895369 Ignore Report Reply
LSA helped me, specifically the way in which it opens your mind to new ideas, makes your thought more unbiased, more unconstrained and more wandering. Very similar to this kind of thinking is the way in which you can rearrange and zoom in and out of the internal hallucinations you get on LSA and other substances. You can modify the visuals at will in many different ways. You can choose to bring this kind of thinking/creativity into your life; you can look at problems in new ways. More specifically I have focused on problem solving in a utilitarian way; making my life more efficient and more effective, fine-tuning my focus.
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Bryam Barmbinkel - Wed, 15 May 2019 11:34:11 EST ID:1T7XPCcP No.895371 Ignore Report Reply
>>895305
sounds an awful lot like bragging. I've never enjoyed anyone else's stories about their trips, because it's not relevant to me. the only people who are interested in hearing such stories are people who have never experienced it. why would you mix such a person's head up with expectations that have nothing to do with them? a person shouldn't know what to expect going into a trip, that's the point of any initiation ritual. you are stealing from this man when you feed him your bullshit in an effort to look cool.

there are sublime truths to the trip that you will never be able to relate to anyone else, and trying to do so only muddies your memories of what you actually experienced, ask any legitimate shaman. or pretend that these tools are for running around drooling at festivals. the stream will correct you, as violently as necessary.
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Lillian Foshfuck - Wed, 15 May 2019 14:34:53 EST ID:8g1C5Q6B No.895381 Ignore Report Reply
>>895371
That's some mighty fine pseudo-intellectual bullshit you got there. Just because you lack imagination doesn't mean others don't or you should fault them for it. Also, a substance not only can but does have a predictable range of effects even if the events experiences are highly subjective. Don't throw out pk/pd profiles just because you're ignorant. You really shouldn't talk until you've done your homework. Hit the books and come back. Saying a description ruins an experience entirely is like saying all you have to do is read a pamphlet to experience the world and live your life. You just sound hella dumb and closed minded, not to mention bigoted.
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Fanny Wasslewater - Wed, 15 May 2019 15:45:20 EST ID:6uOFaPMZ No.895385 Ignore Report Reply
>>895371
>because its not relevant to me
you ever heard of empathy? learning from others? developing relationships with people through shared experiences?

>a person shouldn't know what to expect going into a trip
If knowing can reduce the chances of having a negative experience, then they should probably know

>there are sublime truths ... that you will never be able to relate to anyone else
What truths? Why can't you relate them?

>pretend that these tools are for running around drooling at festivals
nice strawman
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Martha Tootbanks - Thu, 16 May 2019 02:20:17 EST ID:+zVqs3xZ No.895395 Ignore Report Reply
Are we talking high doses for indescribable experiences? I can describe everything I've experienced on hallucinogens so far but my doses have always been moderate-low.
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Frederick Wiffingfare - Thu, 16 May 2019 06:03:49 EST ID:O61PecZf No.895397 Ignore Report Reply
>>895385
And that's why people call me shaman. Thank you for agreeing with me(>>895831), I'm the sunflower state shaman, or sunflower shaman. I've been studying shamanism for almost 10 years and neurology, psychology, and pharmacology since I was 5. My parents bought me my first neurology book when I was 6 or maybe 8. I've been teaching harm reduction and psycholitic technique and getting people to please pleasr PLEASE work with their doctors for years now. Then I educate my doctors on diatetics through a new understanding through sometime I made up and just named Diatetic Pharmacokinetic/Pharmacodynamic Treatment Optimization. This has been m life's work and I'm just a cook with a chef's knowledge who's more of a pit master but I'm also a fully trained EMT who damn near ended up teaching the class. It's funny how it works out but I'm gonna start going public with my info soon. That's why I can eliminate the negative side effects of HBWR and DXM combined and made a whole new tek for mimosahuasca. I put all that information here for you guys because I love you. My doses of stuff I would NEVER recommend but it's some healing shit if you have repressed memories or need to get over addiction.
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Beavis Burnsdale - Thu, 16 May 2019 13:20:08 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895409 Ignore Report Reply
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>>895381
Everyone who says something that challenges you is just being psuedo-intellectual, right? you describe yourself perfectly. Your imagination is not as creative as the universe/god/the stream/etc. Pretending it is does harm to other, whether you are able to imagine what it might be or not. You're beyond your experience, take off daddy's shoes before you trip and fall.

I assume your homework involves reading a bunch of conjecture by people who have never had an 8th circuit experience. Cool. I've eaten acid older than you. If you think reading a bunch of horseshit books will teach you anything about the psychedelic experience, then you really have no clue. "predeictable range of effects," yeah sure. it won't make your ears fall off, we know that much. every one of my thousands of experiences has been unique. maybe you haven't experienced this in your microdosing experiements or whatever is popular today. you've built a prison around your mind with you beloved books and I doubt you'll ever get any real use of psychedelics.

psuedo-intellectual, hella dumb, closed minded, and bigoted. nice list of ad hominems you got there, but you're still shitting through your mouth.

>Saying a description ruins an experience entirely is like saying all you have to do is read a pamphlet to experience the world and live your life.

this statement doesn't make any sense to me, maybe I am "hella dumb." or possibly you're just a kid, screeching about what you think is obvious because you read it in one of your fancy new york times best sellers. except you haven't made any actual points besides calling me dumb. drool on, fool.
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Beavis Burnsdale - Thu, 16 May 2019 13:35:51 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895410 Ignore Report Reply
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>>895385
>you ever heard of empathy?
it is because of empathy that I do not impose upon others' subjectivities.

>If knowing can reduce the chances of having a negative experience, then they should probably know

if a negative experiences sets that person free, then you are harming the person by denying it to them. doing too much is worse in many cases than doing nothing.

>What truths?
The ancients would call them "the mysteries." The only way I can think to begin describing them is to point out that the human mind is what is complicated, the drug makes straight what is tangled in your mind. a reductive knowledge of the world where false images are stripped away and you see what is in its ineffable glory. what this looks like depends exclusively on the individual, and no one knows anyone else well enough to say what that is. the consciousness that exists before words. that is why it can not be described.

>nice strawman
oh come now, as if you didn't get the point of the pointed exaggeration. do you want me to expend mental effort on manners, or do you want the best I've got. this is no place for tender feelings, psychonaut.
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Henry Gorrynet - Thu, 16 May 2019 15:16:05 EST ID:/KQI97Tp No.895414 Ignore Report Reply
>>895410
>I do not impose upon other's subjectivities BECAUSE of empathy
But that's the whole problem and why your tone makes others ITT dismissive of you. My post was in response to you stating that you have no interest in others' stories. sharing stories does not imply forcing beliefs, it is often (if the sharer isn't a dick) an opportunity for the listener to learn and the storyteller to reflect (as >>895305 correctly pointed out). Not having an interest in others' experiences, regardless of the reason, is deliberately refusing to relate to them, and for empathy to occur you must put yourself in the other's shoes. You are also incorrect in saying that only people who have not "experienced it" are interested in sharing tripping stories, as I have met many people who would disagree, including people who had far more powerful experiences than I.

>if a negative experience sets that person free...
sure, but it can also make them potentially psychotic or mentally fucked for a considerable period of time. If the revelation can still be achieved with proper preparation (even if it's not as immediate) then I believe it's worth it. the risks far outweigh the benefits.

>the consciousness that exists before words
So the experiences of an intense trip can only be understood intuitively in a language-less world? I'm trying to get at what you're saying here. If so, what is the value of said truths?

>oh come on
oh, so someone as wise and enlightened as you does not have will to have manners? again, this is why people are gonna not give a shit about what you say. If you care about arguing legitimately on a chinese basket weaving forum then manners do help. The fact that you present manners and your best as a (false) dichotomy only further proves how much of a dick you sound like.
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Ian Cronnerfirk - Thu, 16 May 2019 16:50:48 EST ID:sHIwu2S0 No.895415 Ignore Report Reply
>>894056

Ironically the new-age pricks come off as egotistical shits. I've viewed them as the equivalent of white stoners with dreads and tie-dye shirts. They aren't content to pick what they need and move on, they have to fully immerse themselves in the 'culture' and let it define almost every facet of their life.
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Frederick Wiffingfare - Thu, 16 May 2019 19:16:49 EST ID:O61PecZf No.895416 Ignore Report Reply
>>895410
Are you literally retarded? Explaining the experience stops people with bad family history and medical factors from taking the stuff or dosing wrong. You talking about "the stream" and shit like that isn't your own subjective experience you god damn moron, and "the stream", not just your daddy's piss on your face, isn't magic it's just drugs so some psychotic breaks last longer than the half life of the drug. You really have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about and you appear to use magical thinking. Please stop using psychedelics for a while and take a hard look at yourself.
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Beavis Burnsdale - Thu, 16 May 2019 19:57:14 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895418 Ignore Report Reply
>>895414
Sorry if it seems unempathetic, but I have no use for a hundredth version of "me and my girlfriend turned into trees." There is nothing of value to me there. It could be interesting in a poetic sense if I had a taste for poetry, but in regards to reducing the suffering of all sentient life, there are more important things to busy oneself with. You don't have to feed someone's ego to free him from it. The only trip story I find interesting is the one that end with liberation from the shackles of illusion in a person's everyday life, and you don't need words to tell that story, it's written on their face.

What you see is for your eyes, for your heart, for your mind. It seems to me that the best we can do for a person is provide a loving environment and make sure to the best of our ability that they aren't on the edge of mental break. The rest can only be faced alone. Chapel Perilous is terrifying to the bone, but there is nothing there that you haven't brought with you, a there is nothing in a trip that you cannot overcome with your own will. It's exactly the same as getting out of bed in the morning.

There are certainly ways to sabotage a person into a bad trip, but it is facing the unknown within oneself that makes it worthwhile. Too much expectation can mute the experience. There are many hairs to split here, to be sure. I don't think it would be right to send a person into a trip without knowing what physiological effects to expect, but to lead them into the experience with a play-by-play of what they should be seeing and feeling emotionally would seem worse.

The experience of a deep trip is the direct experience of existence/reality/the universe/life. There are no words for what you experience at that level, and there would be no reason to say them if there were. Anyone who could understand would already know, and not only that, their continued existence here would be a itself a way of celebrating those things you would say. The value is in knowing that life isn't some weird accident, that it and you are the same singular thing and there is no reason to ever be afraid. Don't confuse those words for truth, they are merely my best attempt at indirectly referring to an idea larger than language itself, a finger pointing to the moon rather than the moon itself.

To describe the world perfectly would be to recreate it in its entirety. Simpler to just point at the one that is already there.

I have no wisdom, but I hold knowledge. if you like the ideas I share, develop them into something useful. I know I'm not that smart, but my eyes have seen many things. You've read every word I've written, that's enough for me. Manners stifle honesty. If I wanted to be taken seriously by hundreds of people, I would go to a university and be polite. I want to bounce off of a few outliers one the fringe of the internet, where you can still lie honestly.
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Beavis Burnsdale - Thu, 16 May 2019 20:07:36 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895419 Ignore Report Reply
>>895416
Seems like I twisted your nipple pretty severely there, lol.

How many lives have your stories about seeing dragons in the clouds saved, friend?

Dosing wrong you say? Who has figured out the correct way? You?

Family history, sure. My great grandfather had an LSD sensitivity, should I avoid? You're a silly man.

The stream, yes. Sorry if it's taboo to mention that life itself is alive and your douche bag scientist egos can't allow discussion of anything outside of a test tube. People have known this and used this knowledge for thousands of years. I do have my own subjective opinions about it, but if you're arguing that the universe is a dead, dumb thing, and that any discussion begins there, why do you take psychedelics?

Call it something else if it toots your willy, but it's something I experience outside of the trip, and that's not the same as discussing my trip experiences.

Please suck a shark's dick.
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Jesus Christ - Thu, 16 May 2019 20:24:36 EST ID:1+lO5BI7 No.895420 Ignore Report Reply
>>895419
>Sorry if it's taboo to mention that life itself is alive...

Life is living, hot takes here folks
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Beavis Burnsdale - Thu, 16 May 2019 20:43:38 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895423 Ignore Report Reply
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>>895420
The reason your form if not mental capacity has evolved beyond that of the blue-green algae, yes, life seems to be alive. Who else but the densest of nihilists would deny it seriously?
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Sophie Crocklelod - Thu, 16 May 2019 20:53:06 EST ID:O61PecZf No.895424 Ignore Report Reply
>>895419
Life is living? "HIRR DURR LOOK AT ME GUYS LIFE IS LIVING AND I'M SO PROFOUND? FUNNY HOW WATER MAKES LIFE GUISE!! HURR DURRR, CARBON BASED LIFE FORMS ARE ALL THAT LIVE!!!"
My nipples are un-twistable, invincible unmincable impeccable
You cesspool of old hepatic spooge you cock luge
The whole universe is alive and it would seem it came from particles being drawn to eachother through the indentations in space time. It created order and structure until the universe became aware of itself making all conciousness the, not just human or csrbon based, the rarest most valuable thing in the universe. Hence all the extraterrestrial observation you nitwit. They just won't talk to use cause idiots like you can't shut up long enough to learn something so we can all get along and work together. That's what the UN delegates decided on COLLECTIVELY in discussion. Anyways, we're all LITERALLY just matter experiencing itself subjectively and objectively at the same time. EVERYTHING is alive. That is the profound observation you butt hurt pseudo-intellectual wanna be shaman. Not that life is alive, even babies know that, but that all of everything is alive and constantly recycling, but by interacting with higgs particles we can strip matter of mass and move as light does or even faster by freeing us from the curvature of space time. Then using the threads of ancient radiation we can travel the universe, but if you want to be "spiritual" Ad astra per aspera, per volar sunata
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Beavis Burnsdale - Thu, 16 May 2019 21:21:04 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895425 Ignore Report Reply
>>895424
Travel the whole universe over, but if you think of the universe as mere quanta, what is the purpose? I am satisfied living in a simple house with little money here on Earth. Are you trying to outrun death out there in the stars?

I'm sure those bastions of human decency at the UN have decided many things.

I'm no shaman, and I've never claimed to be. I know you may have gotten confused because I used the word in a different context, but I expected a higher standard of reading comprehension from someone who proclaims the virtues of reading books so desperately.

I guess you also missed the part where I said that I was only speaking indirectly about what I had experienced. Of course the statement life is living itself holds little water, but when you witness proof of it with your own eyes, it affects you differently than when someone simply asserts it.

I like scifi, too, but I'm still not going out of my way to translate your Latin blurb.

Do you think it is more likely that you hold proof positive that life is purely material and that no other possibility exists, or that someone has found it profitable to make you and others like you believe so?

If aliens advanced enough to travel the stars wanted to observe us, they could easily do so without our knowledge. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that out.
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Hannah Clodgestock - Fri, 17 May 2019 06:04:48 EST ID:Bs3L5LVB No.895444 Ignore Report Reply
>>895425
Except I saw it in person off of 29th in Topeka in Topeka Ks. I was waiting for my food in in the Panchos parking lot when I saw what I thought was ball lighting. It defended through the clouds and stopped above the ground. Then I shot back up through the clouds faster than human technology allows for. I think the flash of light, which seemed to come from the thing then glow through its surroundings, was photons emitted by interactions with a dense direct blast of subatomic particles. A type of, for us, theoretical imagining that would allow one to know the position of most if not all particles in whatever it strikes. With that knowledge not only did it know I knew it was there but it didn't fucking care. A demonstration of sorts.
My theory is they're making sure we don't hit the singularity and if we do they'll kill us all before synthetic life rises from our ashes. Transhumanism is some real shit and we're damn close to it. Also, they're waiting for us to pull our heads out our asses.
The Latin saying translates as follows "to the stars through difficulty(or adversity), we are born to soar" because purpose and meaning are not to be found in the laws of nature, it is our duty to divine them. As we rise up to our full potential and seek fellowship among the stars. We will be the architects of a new future, this is our empire, our legacy, our love and ultimately our deaths. I don't wanna escape death. If I did I'd be keeping DNA samples of different tissues in my body so nano bots could one day fix my DNA's frayed ends until I aged backwards and became a perfect version of my infinite selves indefinitely. That's the recipe to immortality. So nope, you're wrong on all fronts and vastly inferior to me, and while I've always said all of what I know "is not intended to treat diagnose or cure any known medical illness" it always seems to help. So lemme help you, quit while your ahead or I'll keep making you look bad over and over and over and over and over again.
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Polly Cripperway - Fri, 17 May 2019 11:35:19 EST ID:83b5ugOW No.895449 Ignore Report Reply
>>895425

>rocket surgeon
Whooooo lad, your on that next level retardation.
Your parents were siblings and so were theirs
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Don Keykong - Fri, 17 May 2019 12:07:23 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895453 Ignore Report Reply
>>895444
The fact that you saw something you didn't understand doesn't prove anything. You read all this garbage scifi and then you see it all around you, almost like you've been conditioned to do so, cool story bro. I see tetris block everywhere after I play for too long.

Keep trying to string together quotes about ideas you don't understand if it helps you feel superior though kiddo.

>>895449
no u
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rocket%20Surgeon
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Caroline Subbleshaw - Fri, 17 May 2019 16:30:02 EST ID:KnqwaQ0e No.895455 Ignore Report Reply
>>895453
Still not a legitimate reply. Checked the statistics on ball lighting and ufo sightings respectively and it was more likely a UFO. Anyways, conjecture=/=science fiction and your ignorance on a subject doesn't make it imaginary. You sound like a child and a particularly capricious one at that. I wouldn't expect some brain dead troglodyte like you to know anything other than broscience and hippy logic but I can't say I didn't try. Just go back to 4chin where you belong. Read more about the LHC and higgs particles then come back and talk. I provided more than enough for you to figure it out on your own if you're half as smart as you think you are. Those quotes are state mottos you moron. Those ideas aren't my own and they are from legitimate scientists at the top of their respective fields. I'm sorry your penis is as small as your mind and back are weak you sad butt hurt little jelly fish of a sad excuse for a man child. I know it sucks but when the grown ups are talking sometimes it's best to just listen.
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Don Keykong - Fri, 17 May 2019 20:59:43 EST ID:WswcrlsV No.895458 Ignore Report Reply
>>895455
I get it, you have a low threshold for evidence. At least you're on to the UFO crap instead of Scientology, real stroke of luck that you didn't bump into their propaganda first.

You haven't said anything worth listening to yet. Please Junior, tell me more about my penis. Mommy bought you a science book for Christmas and now you feel like you invented the blowjob. I bet you have a lot of friends.
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Barnaby Honeydale - Sat, 18 May 2019 05:49:06 EST ID:g+WWltaK No.895462 Ignore Report Reply
The dmt entities are real. You can prove it to yourself if you smoke enough dmt to the point you feel them all the time and start asking for synchronicities. At some point you realize the chances of these things happening so often just doesnt make any sense whatsoever and then at some point it hits you hard and you realize they are actually fucking real and this is some sort of simulation and now you are insane forever. You can all do it too if you want.
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Jack Ponderpick - Sat, 18 May 2019 07:17:37 EST ID:O61PecZf No.895463 Ignore Report Reply
>>895458
I'm not into the "UFO" crap you idiot and sightings are so common by civilian and military alike the government openly spent millions of dollars recording and categorizing it. There was an article in the times and the effort was to substantiate claims. About your penis though, it's so tiny it can move freely through solid matter like a muon. My threshold for evidence is evidence itself that can be gathered, measured quantitatively and qualitatively then reproduced through a series of events in a predictable and reliable way. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about the scientific considering you dismissed the Large Hadron Collider and apparently have never heard of it at all. You keep calling me "junior" but I think your projecting some insecurities here. Another thing "propaganda" has to do with political agendas and viewpoints. Even an abstract application of the word doesn't allow for that level of contortion since religion is a mythological and it's not misinformation it's a belief system(children's story).
See, I'm beginning to think you're either a troll or legitimately retarded. At least by this point I'm pretty sure you can read but apparently your reading comprehension is for shit and you are clearly belligerently ignorant. The friends comment is just more projecting. I do have lots of friends. I have friends with benifits, a wife, platonic friends, romantic friends, and just plain old friendly acquaintances. If you even knew you'd just he jealous.
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Oliver Greengold - Sat, 18 May 2019 08:53:43 EST ID:LywZUfmH No.895464 Ignore Report Reply
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>>895462
The DMT entities aren't real. You clearly haven't smoked enough.

Smoke enough and the facade will disappear, and you'll see it's just a mirror.
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George Sebbersodging - Sat, 18 May 2019 10:42:30 EST ID:bDYMg8HY No.895465 Ignore Report Reply
>>895464
The whole time we thought it was God looking down upon us, but it was just a reflection of the devil all along, the greatest trick he ever played, laughing at us the whole time.
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Don Keykong - Sat, 18 May 2019 14:24:37 EST ID:8miTfqG+ No.895468 Ignore Report Reply
>>895463
Naïve realism.
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Jack Ponderpick - Sat, 18 May 2019 19:35:09 EST ID:O61PecZf No.895472 Ignore Report Reply
>>895468
Blind ignorance
>>
Jarvis Bardville - Sun, 19 May 2019 00:29:00 EST ID:IUfz5v9T No.895477 Ignore Report Reply
>>895472

Purple sharks


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