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Being a better Sherpa

- Tue, 02 Jun 2020 00:38:20 EST 5xQkABMD No.903465
File: 1591072700501.jpg -(847807B / 827.94KB, 1920x1080) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. Being a better Sherpa
I've recently gotten to the point in my psy journey to where I'm regarded as "shaman as fuck," sherpa, etc. by my group of friends. I'm not trying to suck my psychedelic dick, and I don't feel comfortable accepting those titles. I don't need you to suck yours either, I am simply giving context.

With that being said, I find myself struggling to put out fires and dealing with train wrecks as efficiently as I'd like, and it seems that train wrecks are unavoidable these last few sessions.

I try and keep doses small and the amount of people involved smaller but some people simply don't want to listen.
One instance I keep coming back to is a girl I was with (group of ~6 people in a medium sized house,) was complaining that she never trips hard, doesn't get visuals, etc. So I asked her if she wanted my advice, if she wanted me to "turn the key," for her so to speak. Long story short I distilled 5 years of psychedelic wisdom into an hour and she couldn't handle the tsunami of psychedlic energy unfolding onto her lap.

Looking back on it, I feel very irresponsible and lucky nothing worse happened. With great power, etc.

I guess my questions are.. How do you know when someone is ready for a lesson? How can you get people back to earth better? When do you check in on someone and when do you let them get lost in thought?

Now that I'm forced to bear the burden of responsibility and am tripping with people outside of my comfort zone I find myself struggling with some of the more nuanced and delicate aspects of being "the experienced one," in a session.

Sorry for the wall of text but I felt more info would be better than insufficient info in this instance. Thank you for any helpful or humorous responses. :)
curious /psy/guy - Tue, 02 Jun 2020 05:08:00 EST WgY/e737 No.903467 Reply
It’s time. Now that the chaffe has been separated we go inside of it alone, once more, as in our burgeoning youth.
curious /psy/guy - Tue, 02 Jun 2020 05:09:23 EST WgY/e737 No.903468 Reply
After we go in it alone, we share the gifts with people like that, so they can go in alone, and reach a level of understanding that is compatible with you.
William Billinghall - Wed, 03 Jun 2020 00:09:53 EST WDWaPoUO No.903480 Reply
I've been in the same position as you, but I'm also a person who's naturally pretty mellow. I think its a few things.

The first is that psychadelics are a bit of a gamble regardless of your experience at times. When you take a lot after not having a good week emotionally, or take a somewhat high dose after not taking one for a long time, you can lose control just like you would in your rookie days. Shit happens. Thats why I try not to trip around people im not comfortable around at higher doses - its can be a recipe for disaster. Anyone who has tripped a lot has had at least a few moments of embarrassment.

The second is that you dont have to always assume the role of the sherpa, or even advertise that. I would wager that those who are tripping with you aren't thinking about you as some sort of shaman, more so just a guy who knows his shit. Even though I have a fair amount of experience and I like to give people an idea of what to expect and what doses to take, ultimately its their choice. Its not your job to give someone your whole psychadelic spiel. Maybe reflect back on what happened (as uncomfortable as it was) - what would you have done differently? Time, place, and tone is important too. Did you give your spiel in a weird way? was it like in a group setting and you went on a rant sort of (ive seen that happen to others many times on LSD )?

Finally, when someone appears to be freaking out or having a meltdown, I think its always a good idea to check in. In fact, usually really awkward situations can be avoided by doing just that. Sure they may be upset with you at that time but your intervention could stop them from running into the street with no clothes on or sitting on the floor in their own urine. Just pay attention - look at their body language, have they been silent for a while, shit like that. As for how to bring them back better... thats hard and ime very case-by-case. Ideally its best to have a conversation about that before though of course that doesnt always happen. You really just got to play it by ear, but there are definitely some things that are always a good idea. Change the music, asking them what they want to do, looking for a distraction, or changing the location can all be things that help ground someone. Statements like "its just the drug, not you", "It will wear off eventually", and other basic reassurances are always good too.
Fucking Pubbletan - Wed, 03 Jun 2020 16:47:27 EST ol3lKwZ/ No.903494 Reply
I barely ever give out advice even if I'm asked for it, for I'm winging my own life, who am I to know better than the person himself what is true for them.

in other words - don't be so keen to teach. but again this is just my approach and i know nothing.
Jarvis Bravingbuck - Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:30:33 EST s3wNXDWv No.903530 Reply
sounds like people think you know more than they do, and it sounds like you think you know more than people too

guess what shaman as fuck, you are not the teacher, the drugs is and you are doing something you dont want to be doing and are tripping in a house with 6 people that sounds LAME like what you would do when you first try acid in 7th grade. Go out in to the nature and stopp having giant take drugs parties if you are not having a good time anymore

go to the woods or a hike or something its way better than sitting around a house with 6 people all being like ooooooo man
also what is 5 years of psychadelic knowledge it sounds more like you just made someone freak out by triggering anxiety or something its very easy to make someone uncomforatble by talking like you know something everyone doesnt know on drugs

Jarvis Bravingbuck - Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:34:39 EST s3wNXDWv No.903532 Reply
what is a psychadelic truth like if you take acid and smoke weed youll be high, or you might throwup on mushrooms , or what i feel like being a "teacher" puts you in a mindset that isnt actually helpful for anyone i agree dont be so keen to teach everything can be figured out on a persons own if they take drugs, like thats probably how you found out these truths so just let people be and also visuals is not what psychadelics is about
wordmachine - Thu, 04 Jun 2020 18:54:05 EST 5xQkABMD No.903533 Reply
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As much as I did my best to make sure I didn't describe it incorrectly, it seems that I did anyways haha. I don't assume roles, or pat myself on the back like ,"yeah dude I'm so good at doing drugs haha look at my grassroots hat brah bro do u know about fractals bro," but I see behaviors coming before they happen, I can detect body language, I can see when people are slipping. I understand that I'm still a relative noob and that there are sages far beyond my understanding, but at the same time I'm not going to be modest and say that I don't know shit about shit. Ya know?

Regardless, I've still had multiple people call me things in my original post. So I'm not assuming anything, people around me just made it a "thing," even though I would prefer they didn't..

I make sure to do my best not to come off as condescending, self rightous, ego stricken etc. because I used to in the past, so I understand how important it is to communicate with others in a way that allows them to be open to listening. Simply through my actions and me handling situations well, helping people achieve beautiful break through's, heal, understand/accept themselves it's a reputation I've garnered in my small circle of friends.

As to how I was talking to the girl, she was complaining incessantly for about 10 minutes and to be honest, I was starting to get annoyed so I wanted not only to help her trip harder like she thought she wanted to, but also so that she would stop fucking up the head space.. A little selfish and impatient in retrospect. I basically calmly had a conversation with her like "If you're wanting to have specific experiences like in this movie or that music video it's really gonna hold you back because one of the main themes of psychedelics is learning to surrender," not talking down to her, nothing rude just trying to help her understand things and giving her tools to navigate tripping better. Keep in mind this is someone on like their 3rd trip or something. I put on moving art and boards of canada, she didnt go for that. I told her she'd feel better if she got up, stretched, and got her blood moving she'd feel better, didn't want to do that either. I explained to her the concept of what I call the "acid kinks," that restless, uneasy energy that builds up in the come up that i find stretching, moving, etc. basically completely eradicates. So like, I tried putting on some pretty fuckin bread and butter trippy shit, tried to get her to go from the dark, small bed room to the sunshine living room, but she just wanted to sit there and pout so idk what i was supposed to do. Changed the music for her, asked her if the TV was too much turned it off, did everything i could. I can't trip for you.

I get that I'm not obligated to show anyone "the light," but when I see someone struggling or having a hard time I can't ignore it, man. I don't view myself as this rightous flower of life third eye woke as fuck peladian god, just someone that's been in a headspace slightly more times than some people.
wordmachine - Thu, 04 Jun 2020 19:00:34 EST 5xQkABMD No.903534 Reply
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For someone upset about how fucked off other's egos are you should listen to yourself talk.

I can't control what others around me do. I frequently tell people smaller circles smaller doses and prefer to be in nature but not everyone has the patience or resources to do that all the time. Please calm down.

But since you wanna be such a cunt about how I should teach less while also telling me how to trip and talking down to me, which, by the way, fucking LOL: I'm going with half that many people out to a cabin inna woods by the river to go get faced this weekend so don't worry, I'm taking your wonderful advice :)
Thomas Pockwell - Fri, 05 Jun 2020 01:27:57 EST QCTrk9lH No.903549 Reply
The only aphrodisiac I need is in this juice. Don't tell your mother what you told me. Is tangibility what you want? Because all twisted in the rug after that and there's little chance of coming back. The brains will tell you it's not in your best interest.
Samuel Blossleham - Sat, 06 Jun 2020 10:35:45 EST 337IwFP3 No.903574 Reply
Well, like you said, you can't trip for somebody. Somebody that isn't receptive to what you're trying to do... or to what it is they claim they want aren't going to wind up satisfied regardless of what you do or even they do. I can understand wanting to help somebody struggling, but how open was she really to your help to begin with? Why was she open to it in the first place, assuming she really even was? It sounds like what this girl needed, rather than various forms of sensory stimulation or blurbs of advice, was some self-examination and insight into her own emotional state.

I mean, why is she even taking acid? For some cool ass trippy visurars? For a just some neat novel experience? There's nothing particularly wrong with taking psychedelics for that reason, but if and when you up dissatisfied with what they've had to offer you so far, you really need to rethink taking them in the future... or at least why you are taking them. If she continues like she is, she's probably just going to wind up damaging her psyche. That's her prerogative and all, don't get me wrong. It's just, if you're going to try and help her with anything, I feel it should be with realizing that.

As far as you go, why is it you need help people that are struggling? What compels you to do so? Once you determine why, question how truthful you're being with yourself. Perhaps truthful isn't the correct word, maybe a better way of putting it it is to question how thorough and forthright your beliefs about your motivations are. Even though you desire to help people struggling, by no means are you required to act on that desire. I mean, you said it yourself, you aren't the shaman or sherpa they say you are, who are you to go out of your way to help all these people who are struggling? Even though you reject their titles, you still assume the role because you both feel you can't avoid it and because it is useful in fulfilling your desire to help those struggling with psychedelics. By fulfilling this role, you are fulfilling their expectations of you and accepting the baggage that comes with that... namely, having to speak down to somebody struggling to advise them as one who knows better than they do. I understand you don't see yourself as necessarily knowing more and try and come from a place of much more humility than that, but by playing the role they've given you, your perceptions of the role you are trying to play and your self-image are not shared at all by the people you're interacting with, effectively making them meaningless.

The only way I see around falling into the trap of filling the role they've created for you when helping someone struggling out is to change your overall strategy for helping them. Don't give them advice, don't try and be a personal guide for their trip. Instead, trip how you believe they ought to be tripping to get the results they want, and let them accompany you on that trip--not as a trip guide, but as a fellow tripper. Insteaad of trying to prescribe a certain trip to somebody by giving them instructions, create a trip for yourself that they can simply take part in with you. It fundamentally changes the role that the struggling tripper takes (along with you, too), especially with regards to the relationship/social dynamic the two of you share. Putting somebody who is doubtful of the psychedelic experience into a position beneath you as a sort of student (again, not your intent, but is unavoidable if you accept the role the rest of the group has already established for you) is likely going to caue them to doubt your advice and methods at least on an unconscious level.

Let me put it another way. The prevailing Western attitude when it comes to relationships between student and teacher is one of skepticism. We've learned to interact this way in such social situations since childhood. Instead, what I'm suggesting you do is include her in a trip whose social dynamic is one of a peer taking part in a social experience with another peer. People are naturally inclined to go along with the group, which will make people like that girl much more open to the experience you are trying to give her simply by virtue of experiencing it with you as somebody of equal standing. Rather than feel a natural inclination to reject your views, she will become open to them. Instead of giving her an experience you think she would like, you will share in creating one that she likes.
Phoebe Fumblewell - Sun, 07 Jun 2020 02:16:27 EST s3wNXDWv No.903586 Reply
thats the thing you are not teaching anybody anything, you are just maybe tripping with them or giving them a place to take drugs? the drugs are the teacher and really they just open the door for the person to form thoughts. the same thing has happened with the majority of people ever WITH OUT YOU
Oliver Wennerbury - Sun, 07 Jun 2020 02:37:37 EST 337IwFP3 No.903587 Reply
The guy isn't claiming to really be a teacher anyway. But, that's beside the point. I think you're misunderstanding what people are saying when they talk about somebody being a teacher. They aren't saying that the person teaching somebody is teaching them what the psychedelics teach them, what they're saying is that they teach the people taking the psychedelics how to become open to the "teachings" of the drug.

I mean, as long as we're going to be overly pedantic here, the drugs aren't teaching the users anything either, they merely make the user open to an experience that teaches them, or where they teach themselves. the drugs are not literally communicating with people when they take them, they're just influencing their perceptions and state of mind/consciousness.
Reuben Mullyham - Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:40:25 EST LlCcz68O No.903589 Reply
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Go to a master shaman, (I guess Peru i most accessible?) and ask him/her to train you. For real train you. All cards on the table train you. Until you yourself is regarded a master by the master.

Find a benevolent one with SLAYER. A master healer. There tons of shitty ones.
- Sun, 07 Jun 2020 21:45:18 EST QPl5eXbF No.903596 Reply
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I am just speculating here, but I think with the way Ayahuasca has blown up across the globe in a major way in even just the last 10-20 years, that it would be difficult to find a genuine Shaman to teach you the ways just because you showed up. I also think a lot of people get the wrong idea. They know Shamans sometimes use psychedelic drugs to enter trance so they think, "hey I like psychedelic drugs, I should be a shaman". but to me it's like saying "i love video games, i'll keep it up and become a game develope just by playing my favorite games really well!". Same world, but quite a lot of difference in what is being done and why and what all is entailed.

It is really common for new psychonauts to hop on the "i'm a shaman/ will be a shaman" train (I know the idea certainly interested me and i've seen lots of others over the years), and that's cool I don't mean to infringe on you doing your thing, but I don't think a lot of those same people would find themselves compatible with actual Shamanism..
(which is not just using drugs and trip sitting).
That seems to be the context in which I see it thrown around in western psychedelic circles though - basically just a decent trip sitter or guy who brings the drugs and/or likes to host and has a fair few trips under their belt.
Personally I find it somewhat disrespectful to actual Shamanic tradition. I'm not trying to say no gringo can be a shaman, it's just become a bit of a meme at this point that often seems like an ego trip (people seeking control or respect from their peers) if i'm completely honest.

No hate though fellas, just a perspective.

May The Force Be With You
Fig. 8. María Sabina.

Doña María believed in the sacred force of the mushrooms with the same enthusiasm that many people came to believe in "the Force" of George Lucas and Luke Skywalker. As the years passed since Wasson first came to Huautla de Jiménez, Doña María felt the force of the mushrooms diminish within her spirit. Doña María realized that with the coming of the white man, the mushrooms were losing their meaning. Doña María claimed that "before Wasson, I felt that the `saint children' elevated me. I don't feel like that anymore. The force has diminished. If Cayetano had not brought the foreigners...the `saint children' would have [probably] kept their powers. From the moment the foreigners arrived, the `saint children' lost their purity. They lost their force; the foreigners spoiled them. From now on they won't be any good. There is no remedy for it."

This revelation from María Sabina most assuredly rings of the truth. The debasement of the mushrooms by casual thrill-seekers is widespread throughout the planet. Apolonio Teran, a fellow sabio (wiseman) was once interviewed by Alvaro Estrada. Estrada asked Apolonio about the breach of sanctity of the mushrooms by debasement wondering if the mushrooms were still considered to be a sacred and powerful source of medicine.

Apolonio claimed that "the divine mushroom no longer belongs to us [the Indians of Mesoamerica]. It's sacred language has been profaned. The language has been spoiled and it is indecipherable for us...Now the mushrooms speak NQUI LE [English]. Yes, it's the tongue that the foreigners speak...The mushrooms have a divine spirit. They always had it for us, but the foreigners arrived and frightened it away..." Later Wasson (1980) agreed that "since the white man came looking for the mushrooms, they have lost their magic." This could mean that the magic is gone forever among the shamans and native peoples who worship them.

Lydia Cingernan - Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:47:47 EST 9JchIYMz No.903597 Reply
What the fuck am I reading? This is the second thread in a week where someone treats shamanism as if it had any connection with reality. Anyone who gives any credence to witch doctors is a failure of the education system.

Yeah, go to a shaman and tell him to teach you. Then go to school to learn homeopathy and later figure out the physical properties of orgonite. Just fill your head with as much nonsense as you can without applying any skepticism. The conmen of the world will love your gullible dumbass.
Mr_Shawmeen - Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:43:22 EST MGwTAV/B No.903606 Reply
Watch your mouth boy. I'm recognized as a Shaman for my herbalism and general scientific knowledge of plants, as well as being a trained EMTb, with a semester of bio to boot.
Mr_Shawmeen - Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:44:01 EST MGwTAV/B No.903607 Reply
It took 10 years of independent study to catalog those plants and chemicals too. Thousands of them.
Nigel Murdwell - Tue, 09 Jun 2020 01:09:43 EST 9JchIYMz No.903609 Reply
Call yourself a botanist, then. If you call yourself a shaman people are going to think you think you're a witch doctor. It would be like a chemist calling themselves an alchemist.
Jack Drodgesitch - Wed, 10 Jun 2020 01:27:44 EST WDWaPoUO No.903625 Reply
I guess in that situation you did all you could. I've been in a similar spot, funny enough the biggest group I ever did it with. Me, 3 close friends, and a girl I just met (who probably shouldnt have) did 1 tab and an edible. During that trip, she kept on going on about her aunt's newborn son is like the second coming (literally) and after listening to music for a while my friend checked out and since we had one room that meant we were gonna watch TV for a while. It definitely killed the vibe. That's why these days i usually only trip with close friends, my gf, or alone. What the other anon said is solid advice, but by changing who you trip with you could kill two birds with one stone - you wont be around people who see you a certain way, and you wont have to help someone who is having a breakdown.
Edwin Blurrytutch - Wed, 10 Jun 2020 07:13:32 EST s3wNXDWv No.903627 Reply
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op you said you dont assume roles, but you offered the advice

i want to know what the "distilled" psychadelic wisdom is

heres some probably 4th or 5th grade wisdom for you
i think you meant condensed
Awe' !!Bwteoy2D - Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:13:47 EST ol3lKwZ/ No.903628 Reply
I have found that I can never go as deep if there are any people no matter how close. Unless it's like a ceremonial setting which is kinda like a big psy dance floor - since everyone is doing their own process you feel much more free to do your own thing than if you actually were alone or with a few other dancers. I don't know if you guys get that feeling. Like you aren't accountable to nobody. In a psy festival dancefloor for example. Similar idea with a ceremony - even though you are together with a bunch of people - it actually feels like you are there alone. But actually I prefer alone over a ceremony no matter how good a shaman. I like peace and quiet. And respect which most people aren't very well acquainted with nowadays.

Tl;dr alone tripping FTW
Samuel Blackstone - Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:14:52 EST Tz1K8p+5 No.904424 Reply
She probably wanted you to fuck bro. LSD makes womens uteruses do funky stuff, you can Google that.
Mr_Shawmeen - Tue, 04 Aug 2020 01:16:04 EST O61PecZf No.904438 Reply
With ayahuasca I would talk to people on the come up and then get them comfy and leave them alone with creature comfort and necessities. They knew if they needed me I'd be there but I respect the process of the plants themselves enough to know that private introspection is its own part of the process. Then we'd talk after peak and as they were coming down and when all was said and done we'd have a nice light meal if they wanted.
Angus Clillystod - Tue, 04 Aug 2020 02:47:24 EST nNaSQCTB No.904439 Reply
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bush shaman reporting in. I am incredibly mad upon reading this post. I guess there is a weakness in my aura still. Back to the bush I suppose. I must wander.
Ebenezer Pullerpeck - Wed, 05 Aug 2020 11:31:39 EST iaeEwxT9 No.904455 Reply
thatscalled western sickness
but op is still an arrogant ass who thinks they know better and are more wise for freaking out a poor girl trying to trip
you literally gave her a bad trip you prick
Angus Ballyworth - Wed, 05 Aug 2020 15:33:02 EST ol3lKwZ/ No.904463 Reply
that's one way to look at it. My way is simply, I don't think OP sounds like my kind of jive and since I find others more tasteful I'll trip with them. Whether OP is a prick or not, I don't know nor can i judge from this given information nor do I care very much.
Cornelius Drobberspear - Sun, 09 Aug 2020 22:49:21 EST /YrP9whW No.904567 Reply
>where I'm regarded as
>"shaman as fuck,"
>I distilled 5 years of psychedelic wisdom into an hour and she couldn't handle the tsunami of psychedlic energy unfolding onto her lap.
> I feel very irresponsible and lucky nothing worse happened. With great power, etc.
>Now that I'm forced to bear the burden of responsibility
>I find myself struggling with some of the more nuanced and delicate aspects of being "the experienced one,"

>I'm not assuming anything, people around me just made it a "thing," even though I would prefer they didn't..

BTW LMAO, it really sounds like you "distilled" your "wisdom". Like a big paragraph that shows you did absolutely fucking nothing LMAO.
Ernest Chollerworth - Thu, 13 Aug 2020 02:22:57 EST YpojxIRJ No.904610 Reply
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Honestly you sound obnoxious and arrogant. The more experience with psychedelics you have, the more you should be able to shut the fuck up and let someone figure themselves out.

"With great power, etc"

Perfect example. you're not some master of the universe, and you did obviously not have the answers she was looking for. Especially if she didn't ask you to "distill" your "tsunami of psychedelic energy"
Ebenezer Sottingridge - Thu, 13 Aug 2020 02:55:37 EST FSp46sVT No.904611 Reply
At best, psychedelics are drugs. Nothing more. There is no, real, enlightenment.

Enlightenment is experienced by individuals. A Shaman may help direct people
from their own experiences as, nothing really more.

Gandhi was inspirational, sure. He spent many years in prison
for his beliefs.

I can assure that LSD etc, are sometimes made in a fully crude
manner. Nothing more.
Betsy Murdstone - Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:04:19 EST UlFan5YE No.904616 Reply
If it's something you've said, which has played on the persons mind and thrown them for a loop, or even slowly upset them, Just act casual and find some humorous way of shrugging it off. Have it taken less seriously. dispel it. Shouldn't overstate or take anything too seriously while under the influence anyhow. If you've taken enough, the experience does the talking.
Betsy Murdstone - Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:08:45 EST UlFan5YE No.904617 Reply
I would of course only suggest this advice to those with thicker skin. You'll be inviting people like that back into comfortable territory in most cases. If it's someone a bit more sensitive or who is vulnerable to their own thoughts, well, better not to put them under the influence unless you're a trained psychiatrist or an actual trained shaman with peers.

Psychedelics shouldn't be prohibited ultimately, and the way guys like us naturally take up this role of sometimes playing the amateur guru is not ideal and shouldn't be normal.
Betsy Murdstone - Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:16:27 EST UlFan5YE No.904618 Reply
How did you accidentally forget you're on /psy/?

It's worth noting that 'shaman' is a pretty broad term in the modern age, and is being used loosely in this thread, but it refers to someone who is concerned with psychological/spiritual subjects, stories, philosophy, speculations on the nature of consciousness etc.

A shaman can be full of any varying degree of bullshit and un-examinable claims, but either way I fail to see how someone who is engaged with the above topics being an apt candidate for overseeing psychedelic use would be a surprise to you. Are you suggesting there's an existing hard science around psychedelic use?
Cornelius Pibberford - Fri, 04 Sep 2020 03:50:49 EST Mzz9vWsd No.904973 Reply
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>it refers to someone who is concerned with psychological/spiritual subjects, stories, philosophy, speculations on the nature of consciousness etc.
The defining feature of a shaman is that they engage with the spirit world to help others. Not any old person can do this, only the pure of heart.
Ernest Hollernadging - Fri, 04 Sep 2020 15:17:40 EST ol3lKwZ/ No.904978 Reply
agreed - a shaman is a man of service and an honest man, if he is not those he is not a shaman in my book.
Clara Horringwill - Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:49:52 EST nngKcfbP No.905007 Reply
Lol there are pharma piece of shit shills on this chan also?

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