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Discord Now Fully Linked With 420chan IRC

Mescaline Creation

Reply
!!HToBa9dh - Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:13:58 EST 4ppVjZXo No.76958
File: 1440191638629.jpg -(42448B / 41.45KB, 460x422) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. Mescaline Creation
I just proposed this on /psy/ so let's see what you people think.
>>>/psy/839044

I do have an add-on, though. L-Tyrosine can be decarboxylated to Tyramine so you don't have to get a shitload of cheese to extract. From there, you can just brominate it selectively in basic conditions to brominate the carbons meta to the hydroxide. A simple LG > Hydroxide reaction later, you'll have 2,3,4 tri-hydroxyl(aminoethyl)benzene.

One simple reflux with 4eq of Methyliodide should yield mescaline in 95%+ yields. What do you think, /chem/?
>>
Phyllis Bugglenod - Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:38:47 EST uGD5aNS6 No.76959 Reply
>>76958
Best of luck decarboxylating tyrosine. You could try enzymes but that would be expensive as shit.

If I remember correctly, alkyl carboxylic acids do not decarboxylate easily
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:15:58 EST 4ppVjZXo No.76961 Reply
>>76959
that won't cost me too much, honestly. those shitty health food stores have tyrosine up the wazoo. I'm gonna try with a few things like the basic Potassium Hydroxide of Carbonate first. Maybe use some potassium chromite and if all fails, will go from there.
Erowid has a decarboxylation of tryptophan to tryptamine using diphenyl ether. I might try that first and look at the yield.
>>
Fucking Bonderham - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 04:32:29 EST rybJ4K29 No.76964 Reply
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>>76958
Have you invented this or is it an actual method that people use? Are you aware of teks that are actually employed in clandestine mesc synthesis?

I wonder if it would actually work, I'll kindly await the results of your experiment. Hail the pioneer.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:20:32 EST ElYFdcKO No.76965 Reply
i just theorised this. these steps (bromination, hydroxyl formation, and methylation of hydroxide) are very routine chemical reactions with pretty high yields. playing with the benzene ring is one of the easiest things to do in chemistry since it's based on a lot of fundamental principals that have been studied for over a century now.

>>76964
hell no. i'm not doing any of this shit...
but if a cheesemaker in the middle of PyongYang were to come up with a computer program that simulates realistic chemical synthesis conditions, i would not be opposed to using said program to post up the percent yields and maybe a TLC or so............... of course, only for theoretic and speculative science
>>
Fucking Bonderham - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:27:39 EST rybJ4K29 No.76966 Reply
>>76965
I bet someone already did something like that, it's just a matter of asking what they did. if you have any more theories on decarboxylation feel free to post.

I hope your fine with me asking qqs without any contribution, if not say so and I'll stop, but what else could be synthed from mesc or the intermediate products?

>>76959
Are those enzymes even produced industrially? What would be the application? Most if not all enzymes are harvested from living organisms AFAIK. How Could humans mechanically build these complex chains?
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:04:03 EST ElYFdcKO No.76967 Reply
>>76966
keep asking....... it's all theoretical........... and of course - it'll give me and others some more insight if you ask questions.
>decarboxylation
>aromatic tryptophan decarboxylated with okay yield
>tryptamine created with diphenyl ether or a chelate of copper
i see no reason tyrosine cannot be decarboxylated witht he same reagents to tyramine when tryptophan can be decarboxylated to tryptamine so simply.

enzymes are produced naturally. taht's why lipase, protase, etc are so expensive. decarboxylation using enzymes would increase yield........ but that'd be so expensive, you could just stick with organic chem routes and have it be better
>>
Ian Churringhood - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:33:49 EST CoY8vecF No.76968 Reply
The method I found involves Vanillin (C₈H₈O₃) and bromine to make 5-bromovanillin. Sodium Hydroxide to 5-Hydroxyvanillin to 3,4,5-Trimethoxybenzaldehyde.

Seems like synthetic vanilla sugar and pool cleaning products plus some funny car fuel is the best route if you have or are willing to buy the equipment.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 13:09:58 EST ElYFdcKO No.76969 Reply
>>76968
yeah, but then you'll have to add on a fucking amine. that shit's annoying.
it's best to start with ethylamino benzene rings so all you have to do is work with the benzene ring.
>>
Fucking Bonderham - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:34:09 EST rybJ4K29 No.76973 Reply
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>>76967
Do you have ADD bombastus? You reply to most posts in strange and erratic manner.
>what else could be synthed from mesc or the intermediate products?
>also what interesting things can be built from tryptamine that are not very complex to do?
>I don't even know if there's anything really unique or of similar value as DxT or 4ho and 5 meo dmt which are probably easier to extract anyway except for det dpt.
>Do any 4ho or 5meo trypts have the mushroom profundity without all the dampening and depressive effects like dmt?
>I wonder if it's even worth doing since dmt is so easy to extract and you can probably build most things from that. Maybe higher purity? Although you could probably just run the extract through column and get same purity as synth plus other alkaloids.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:49:55 EST ElYFdcKO No.76974 Reply
>>76973
probably. but not when i was 12...... i got tested! Thanks for the straightforward questions. They ultimately help you out more so you don't have to sift through some of the bullshit i type when I am more direct.

-Not much can be syn'd from mescaline. It's a pretty simple compound and it's almost completely saturated with stable bonds - most of which make it hard to bond to other things.
-If ou start with tryptamine, you can make a whole host of other shit. DMT is the first one i can think of. Relatively easy. Since the 4th position is the most active, you can easily make Psilocibin or Psilicybin.
-Wat.
-Nope. I've found that 4-OH DMT (psili), 4-AcO DMT, and 4-PO4 DMT (pislib) to all be quite the same with little or no differences. I haven't eaten mushrooms in forever. 5nausea7me. 4-AcO DMT is where it's at. or you can make 4-OH-dmt by making DMT from tryptamine and then brominating/hydroxylating it.
-Just the cost. tyrptophan is so cheap. 50g for $20. If you can get at least an 80% yield from tryptophan to DMT, then that's 40g for $50 or so. Good price. Also the freedom. That's good shit, too
>>
Fucking Bonderham - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:34:14 EST rybJ4K29 No.76976 Reply
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>>76974
>Wat.
I just meant that tryptamines don't really have anything very interesting or of unique value like phens, that you don't find naturally. Except det and dpt. Oh and maybe aMT which I dunno if you can synth easily or not. I don't really see much point in synthesizing all those obscure tryptamines if psilocibin is so easy to grow in large amounts and those obscure chems aren't superior overall. My point is that I understand going through the hassle of synthesizing 2c-x and DOx since they offer unique value that mesc doesn't, but I wouldn't see any point to go the synth route if there were only allyescalines and the like when mescaline is pretty much superior (if it was as easy as shrooms to grow).
Although I don't like the damping effects of psilocin very much so I wonder if any of those trypts are more light and lucid like dmt which would make it worth to study their synthesis.

You can extrract psilocin easily btw and your nausea will be much better or not at all. I personally don't have problems with this, but extract is still nicer.

>or you can make 4-OH-dmt by making DMT from tryptamine and then brominating/hydroxylating it.
what's the point? is it really cheaper and easier than growing?

Your last point is very interesting, never thought about it this way. Will look it up. But it's probably a lot more work that extrac and hardly cheaper if you buy a kilo of bark, plus you need equip and a kilo of bark would yeald enough for years and you could do it in a few hours of work and forget. What do you mean by freedom though?

Hope that makes sense
>>
Fucking Bonderham - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:41:13 EST rybJ4K29 No.76977 Reply
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>>76976
oh forgot to ask if it's of similar easiness synthesizing 2c-b or 2c-e from tyramine as it is mesc?
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:52:59 EST ElYFdcKO No.76978 Reply
>>76976
yummy picture. that sounds amazing to my tongue. love you.

DET would be nice to make. edible DMT is amazing. Mescaline is definitely superior to most of those other research bullshits with heavy bodyloads. On the first few doses, escaline really seemed to be an alternative to mescaline. But nowadays, i really crave a good mescaline high and escaline just won't take the cake.
Regarding the light, lucid highs, I think what you might be interested in is DXM 2nd plateau or LSD. If you find shrooms to be heavy, i'm not sure what else would be lighter beside those two...
I know you can extract psilocin quite easily. But when 4-aco-dmt exists, i'd rather just buy that or make some psilocin. It's cheaper in the long run, too (unless i invest in some intense growing conditions for shrooms.

It is much cheaper than growing in the long run. If you can even get a 50% total synthesis yield from tryptophan, you end up with 25g of psilocin for $100 or so. That is enough for around 750-1000 doses (25-40mg per trip). Keep in mind that i find chemistry fun, too....... so i barely count it as "work" or "hassle".
by freedom i mean the fact that you can make whatever the fuck you want with enough time. it's nice to be in control and riding that whore of a chemical all over the town.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:54:58 EST ElYFdcKO No.76979 Reply
>>76977
2C- X compounds are very, very annoying to synthesis due to their para-oriented methoxy groups on the benzene ring.
you might have to run 2-5 columns in the end. you also will get terrible yields because of the side-reaction selectivity. ugh what annoying stuff.
>>
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Fucking Bonderham - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:41:41 EST rybJ4K29 No.76981 Reply
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>>76979
I must say I like you too lol. Your sense of freedom is inspiring!

I probably would only be able/care to make DxT 4HO 5MEO and some Mesc. Thanks for kind and patient answers this really enlightened me, because your perspective is new to me and sounds like great fun plus probably worth it for cost.

Don't get me wrong I love shrooms but they seem a bit gloomy or with strong character sometimes. Mesc is just such wise teacher and a great friend, plus not so tough love like shrooms. Neither are very good for music which is what I want to be able to get in large amounts for I'd trip a lot and I need very high doses to achieve desired result. I love acid too and I know it's what I want, it'd just cost a fortune with what I need and impossible to synth.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 18:30:35 EST ElYFdcKO No.76983 Reply
>>76981
what is that picture. who is that. google reverse image gives me a picture of some 70~ year old man's facebook profile.
if so, then i think i love you even more. you fucking bonderham.

" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-Hydroxy-5-methoxydimethyltryptamine "
holy shit. why? let me know how that yields... THIS IS THE KIND OF FREEDOM THAT I LOVE. i should make as many of these novel compounds as possible and test them out on myself. fuck, this sounds like a great idea. #eatanewmoleculeeveryday

that sucks balls, bruv. the shrums are the standard high which is great for huge doses. huge doses of mescaline occasionally make me uncomfortable. I would rather a strong dose of Psilocibin than a strong dose of mescaline. but mescaline is probably still my favourite /psy/ch for the reason that you mentioned

regarding acid... nah b. nah @ all. Get those morning glory seds or Kawaii Wood Rose tips and extract the LSA. then it's a simple addition reaction (simple relative) to create LSD. MILLIGRAMS UPON MILLIGRAMS MUH NIGGA. WE GON' BEE TRIPPIN 3NITE.
>>
lil' shit !!vVWR8L52 - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:22:18 EST rybJ4K29 No.76984 Reply
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>>76983
Haha, yeah a couple years ago I lurked psy for some time just to see it again because I lost the pic and I liked it so much. Have no idea what's it from. Seems like acid and lots of it. Rare representation of what we see on psys.

>4ho-5meo-dmt
Yeah I just recently saw it too haha, but I actually meant psilocin and 5meo separately lol and by DxT I meant DMT DET DPT. I suck at inglish sometimes.

>huge doses of mescaline
like what?

regarding your last point, I really envy your outlook on this stuff. I'd like to ask more questions, but I'll catch you later. Where do you lurk, reraly do I see you on psy. I'm lil' shit btw, please love me still, I know I do goofy sometimes.

I will want to hear more from you man. Hell I'll prolly want to learn OC myself now and I just recently got to know another guy who has a degree in OC and said he could help me learn. Your inspiring dude. tell me about it if you ever stumble upon that 4oh5meo
>>
lil' shit !!vVWR8L52 - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:25:26 EST rybJ4K29 No.76985 Reply
>>76983
>then it's a simple addition reaction (simple relative) to create LSD
somehow I have doubts about that tho
>>
Bombastus !!PvamJ2l9 - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 20:31:00 EST KgP8RW1h No.76986 Reply
>>76985
I'll respond to this first. Gotta get the actual /chem/ stuff here.
LSA can be ethylated non-selectively to produce LSD primarily on paper. The only problem is its 3-6 different impurities. If you have 1g of LSA, you might be able to run a column with 3-6 different fractions and achieve LSD in 1-20% yield. Assuming a 1% yield, that'll leave you with 10mg of LSD. Might be worth it.
LSA might be able to be converted to Lysergic Acid in the presence of a strong acid. If the legal compound LSA is made, then there's a good enough recipe for LSD from LSA.

>>76984
I lurked /psy/ and occasionally used it to piss off the the teens there ("Don't knock shitposting on /psy/ until you've tried it" -Vehk. 2015). I lurked mainly because I was inexperienced with hallucinogens and didn't feel comfortable giving advice without trying them a few times. My main home is /chem/, /opi/, and /pss/. But I've been on a local /psy/ch binge for the past 5 weeks. So I figure I'd go on and give some legit advice.

Bru. I'll make it all one day. we'll have a huge Shulgin thread and I'll go insane. Lol it'll be great.
Gon git a rabbit and I'll make him try everything before I do, just to be safe. The best part about all of this is that it's currently perfectly legal!

By hi dose I mean the equivalent of 300mg. The deep dream, almost insane bullshit. 100mg of escaline didn't make me break through. I'll need to try around 700mg of mescaline one of these days. I still haven't fully grasped what most people say when it comes to the large ass cactus binges. I think there's a ceiling habve to break through first.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 22 Aug 2015 21:17:13 EST ToPn3hmw No.76987 Reply
>>76986
actually, i just brought up the isomers of ethyl-LSA. there are 4 possible isomers. diethyl-LSA would have 8 possible isomers. the column might be more annoying than i thought.

another route of going about this is to protect the two tertiary amines and expose the primary amide. i'm not sure how to go about this but it does seem within the realm of possibility
>>
Nell Clemmerwatch - Tue, 25 Aug 2015 22:21:18 EST uGD5aNS6 No.77008 Reply
>>76966
>Are those enzymes even produced industrially?

Biotech is the name of the game. You can order any enzyme. If it is bacterial, that is easy. Otherwise you just infected mammalian cells in a petri dish with DNA that causes the cells to pump out your enzyme/general protein of interest.

Look up the general protocol known as transfection. It is super easy, I can do it in my sleep. Typically you can use cell factories like Human Embryonic Kidney cells or COS-1 cells, the go to is Chinese Hampster Ovary cells though.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:47:31 EST V1Ngvki3 No.77024 Reply
>>77008
you don't even need to use those enzymes. i'm gonna go research some copper acetate decarb- and see what they say the yields are.
that's much cheaper and easier to get than the specialized enzymes that need to be stored at -20 to even be viable.
>>
Hedda Seshdick - Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:59:44 EST 8P0TA/0u No.77081 Reply
Hey Bombastus, what's new with your research?

Could you elaborate on what is the best way for converting tryptamine into dmt in your opinion? I haven't seen any teks with more than 70% efficiency and a lot of them require many exotic reagents.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Wed, 02 Sep 2015 17:15:35 EST 4ppVjZXo No.77109 Reply
>>77081
since you mentioned yield, there's probably no way you'll get 70% yield even using 3 molar equivalents of the monocarbon reagents.
expect something like 30-50%.
>>
Albert Duckstone - Thu, 03 Sep 2015 08:58:21 EST rsgzP3ry No.77115 Reply
>>77109
Thanks for input

Here I found a tek that yealds 83%, but I don't really understand what reagents are involved and how complex it is as a whole.

https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine2dmt.html

>Experimental

>General Procedure for the preparation of N,N-Dimethyltryptamines1

>To a cooled (-2°C) and stirred solution of a substituted amine (7.0 mmol), NaCNBH3 (14.0 mmol), and glacial acetic acid (35.0 mmol) in MeOH, a soln of CH2O (38% w/v aq. sol.) in MeOH was added dropwise over 17 min. After 20 min of stirring at 0°C and 2.5 h at room temp, saturated aqueous K2CO3 was added and the MeOH was removed under vacuum. The residue was diluted with H2O and the product was extracted with EtOAc twice, washed with satd NaCl twice, dried, and concentrated. Yield of substituted DMT = 83%.

>It is ironic that this is actually quite similar to another proposed DMT synthesis3 back at DMT world that was also "lost and forgotten" with the only major difference being the catalyst NaBH4 vs. the more selective NaCNBH3. I recall it actually being discarded, without much trial, as producing quarternary tryptamines (β-carbolines) rather than the desired N,N-dimethyl because of a certain mechanism in the reaction (Pictet-Spengler?).


Do you by any chance understand how ethylation or propylation would work, is it the same in complexity of experiment?
>>
Faggy Sagglebudge - Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:46:40 EST uGD5aNS6 No.77116 Reply
>>77024
I know, the poster I replied to asked though, so I thought I would show him they do exist.
Also long term, yea you should store them at -20 but you can get away with a home freezer and it would be perfectly viable. I store enzymes at 4 degrees C all the time to avoid freeze-thaw cycles. That's even worse.

But yea highly recommend just going the chemical route, since they were saying 50 units is like 300 dollars.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Fri, 04 Sep 2015 03:02:24 EST SHh2DN4U No.77119 Reply
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>>77115
Find one that avoids borohydrates, let alone cyanoborohydrates.
That cyano thing is incredibly rare and I haven't seen a bottle of it in the 3 labs i frequent. Mind you, we also don't work with inorganics or amines that often...........

anyway i can see the reduction catalyst helping but i don't see how it's necessary. regarding this, it will be used just to incerase yield and you searching for it may not be worth it. it's probably just easier and cheaper to run this reaction multiple times at low yield than it is to source cyanoborohydride.

>ethylation
probably similar. but it's sterically hindered so expect longer reflux time. same thing with propylation. don't do propylation.
i also don't know why they use acetic acid instead of formic acid for the reflux. maybe cus its cheaper or sum. iunno m8y.

>>77116
fair enough. always good to find new methods of synthesis. bring them up and if they're not viable, it'll help us think in new avenues
keep up the good work, faggy
>>
>>
Reuben Goodville - Sat, 05 Sep 2015 04:49:00 EST XVmcZWjh No.77121 Reply
>>77119
There's this chemist guy on dmt nexus and he has a discouraging opinion on this dmt route. And I'm afraid he knows what he's talking about...
Here's a piece from original discussion here https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40853
>the tryptamine to dmt route is a waste of time and resources anyway, look it up.
>done it.
>it's not worthwhile, because of the reaction conditions exposed to the intermediate.
>there are several pages on the net explaining why it's not favorable. I'll leave it at that.

Here's a couple of resources relevant to discussion
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0731708506001762?np=y
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine.kametani-2.html
>>
Faggy Hobblekit - Sat, 05 Sep 2015 10:46:17 EST 3frDHw7g No.77122 Reply
>>77121
So far I haven't found any synthesis that use OTC non-toxic reagents and produce satisfactory rezults cheaper than extraction, not to mention synthesis is harder to fullfill than extraction.

I have to suppose there isn't really an easy and effective way to synth dmt with OTC chemicals. I guess extraction would still be internet user's go to unless he needed a hundred grams or something.

Here's an old thread, but seems to be abandoned now.
http://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/tryptamine/000299426.html
>>
lil' shit !!vVWR8L52 - Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:04:32 EST sCGDTKB3 No.77128 Reply
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sry if this is off topic, but is there a simple way to get DET or DPT from dmt?
I've heard good things about those two esp dpt, plus you wouldn't need to fuck with your MAO (which influences all kinds of things) to be able to have a decent length trip
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:51:11 EST ElYFdcKO No.77152 Reply
>>77121
i looked a bit deeper into this and i'll have to see what everyone says about it. let me see what i can find on my "schematics and predictions"
I see no reason why the eschweiler clarck reaction wouldn't work with it....... even with a 10 or 20 percent yield (which is good enough)

>>77122
OTC non-toxic substances is a pipe dream when working with carboxylic acids, amides, and their derivatives. i want to see if it's possible to do it from an intermediate method. OTC would be a dream - but quite the pipe dream.

>>77128
no. that'll be quite hard
you could try ethylation of tryptamine. but to demethylate Dimethyl-amines are quite annoying.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:15:47 EST V1Ngvki3 No.77166 Reply
>>77164
usd is 1.35 to the cad. give me a bit more time when my "computer software" gets cheaper to buy so i can progress with my "online research"
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:27:42 EST 4ppVjZXo No.77197 Reply
>>77187
absolutely. but that vannilin annoying step isn't something i want to fuck around with. i greatly appreciate the support but i think i will try a bromination on tyramine and see how selective it is. if the tlc shows it to be a highly selective reaction, it should not be too difficult to tri-methylate it and make the reaction work.

i'll see what my "online research" shows once i figure out how to get bulk tyramine (and when the cad gets higher). i gotta eat, man.
>>
Bombastus !!HToBa9dh - Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:13:54 EST ElYFdcKO No.77278 Reply
>>76958
Reviewing the tryptamine thread, I can yield that amines are NOT my strong suit. I like this benzene chemistry and ease much better.
I think I'll have to fuck around with phenylethylamines before I do too much work with tryptamines. Also, the canadian dollar is finall doing a bit better.
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Tue, 01 Dec 2015 15:44:17 EST Izj+Mobm No.77391 Reply
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>>77278

im just going to assume that you meant to write the precursor to mescaline as 3,4,5 phenethylamine. the original phenolic position in tyrosine is para to the carbon side chain. i have no idea how a phenolic function would direct to a meta position, but dont listen to the engineer, i just want to build huge kettles and look a matrizes

the iodomethane might also attack the amine, does that sound likely? huh im just guessing that its going to smidgeon more nucleophilic than the phenolics. actually, yes the iodomethane wont serve you well

ive had good experience with t-boc protecting groups when employing iodomethane, but an acetyl group might do the job just as well, but im guessing that the deprotection wont go as smoothly. thats whats so sexy about t-boc

i see no problems with the decarboxylation, the starting material is inexpensive enough to try a lot of methods and optimize.


>>77108
pictet-spengler will occur. and im somewhat certain that wont simply "reduce" the yield of DMT. the reducing agent counteracts that side reaction as far as i can tell.

>>77187
this seems more viable, allthough there are two more steps but you wont have to fiddle around with the vulnerable amine and/or proctecting groups.
if only i had a source of Hg(2)Cl, or could make reliable Ga/Al alloys.

does anybody know where to aquire water soluble Hg²+ salts without having to make them?
>>
Bombastus !lnkYxlAbaw!!7zlcjO/U - Sun, 24 Jan 2016 15:41:43 EST V1Ngvki3 No.77558 Reply
>>77391
A shake with some a bromine water / catalyst in presence of pyridine should produce 3, 5 dibromo, 4, hydroxy phenylethylamine with a decent equilibrium shift towards the desired species. The theoretical shift should be somewhere in the ppm but I should prepare for a 1:100 shift. That may need to be columned.

Then the bromo-groups should be easily converted the tri-hydroxy species by a hydroxide shake and strong acid workup.

Then comes the methylation as mentioned. Acetic acid probably would just be the easiest. When working with hydroxy-groups (as I have in palladium coupling in the past), we have used a tertiary carboxylic acid which has worked well for oxygen. I would probably just use acetic acid as a protector because of the relative ease.
Looking into it a bit further, it seems that amine-protection could benefit from an ester rather than a more simple protection group. That's rather unfortunate. I'll try it with acetic acid anyway because of the cheapness. Something like 250mg or whatever.

That brings me to the question of what a dimethyl-mescaline would produce in terms of psycho-effects. Hmmmm...

>Gallium, Mercury
What's wrong with the gallium alloy?
Also, mercury salts are easily purchased online. Either get it pure from some random guy off ebay or you could buy cinnabar online and refine that with HCl.
If you're feeling adventurous, of course

Still, protecting groups may be easier. Who knows.
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Bombastus !lnkYxlAbaw!!7zlcjO/U - Sun, 24 Jan 2016 15:49:48 EST V1Ngvki3 No.77559 Reply
>>77391
Mercury + nitric acid > leave stirring in the dark for 8 hours >vacuum filter off the hydroxide crystals > mix with hot HCl > sublimate.

This reaction but it is relatively easy albeit extremely dangerous. I've done it once in my life. You just have to be more careful than anything.
Also a fume hood.

Or you could just try looking on ebay. Some guy has it for $70.

>>77551
Thank you.
>>
press !QUHukXEvkY - Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:07:35 EST Zn/8qZgZ No.77581 Reply
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>>77558
maybe im too drunk or its because i havent even gotten through OC2 exams yet but if you say acetic acid, do mean using an acetyl protecting group or using acetic acid as a solvent so that the substrates is in a form which is a salt, so that the amine function is less nucleophilic?

and im fairly certain that the methylation wouldnt stop at the N,N-dimethyl. itd quaternize and leave you with a stupid iodide salt.

ive had good eyperiences with t-boc protecting groups for sonogashira couplings but then again i didnt even get to test acetyl groups

concerning the amalgam.
i dont live in acountry where the sale of toxic chemicals isfreely permitted. even buying regular mercury is almost impossible, buying salts of mercury is impossible without using a front and im not going to be that kind of guy

and the gallium just doesnt seem very reliable to me. preliminary testing proved it to somehow work but i havent tested it on comparable substrates or the actual intermediate yet. i dont shit nitroethane

id rather try to use hg1+ salts since the amalgam would work even with almost insoluble salts. all id have to do then is let mercury stir with dilute HCl and then use the resulting solution on my aluminium. preferably on Al that hasnt been washed with NaOH since that increase the surface waaaay too much. and i dont recon that my dimroth condensers would be enough
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Phineas Fengerdale - Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:26:48 EST GgTTTkur No.77597 Reply
>>77581
I disagree, how is any of that anymore real than thoughts or music?
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Isabella Drallerdock - Fri, 29 Jan 2016 16:18:05 EST TSHbcYDX No.77598 Reply
>>77581
That's all just wrong check your math next time if that's even on an angle?
>>
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Charlotte Blillyfuck - Sat, 30 Jan 2016 12:58:34 EST jUSIl4uT No.77600 Reply
>>77558
I knew a guy that did that once! It blew his guts all to hell, o god I remember it was everywhere in our lab they had to scrap what was left of him off of the walls and ceiling, o god!!! Johnny you where the best of us!!! And angels need to fly!!!
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Nicholas Bettingworth - Sat, 13 Feb 2016 23:42:49 EST hkiDf+9v No.77659 Reply
>>76976
amazing discutions guys

THAT PIC

I do rememmber that guy on /psy/
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Cedric Heshleg - Wed, 16 Mar 2016 16:17:44 EST ea3I8Xk/ No.77749 Reply
>>77659
Hey Bombastus. I missed you man. This is awe' god. How are you doing? and have you tried any of your simulaculation programs on phens (or tryps)?
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Jarvis Chunnerchock - Thu, 17 Mar 2016 07:26:01 EST TtNn9wfR No.77750 Reply
>>77659
Is that actual science stuff, or just another guy who didn't know when to quit tripping?

I've seen too many random anons on /psy/ go off the deep end, although no one has ever gone as far a Julian. Goddamn that was a fucking mess.
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Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:02:07 EST 4ppVjZXo No.77755 Reply
>>77749
I miss everyone all the time. Who's awe'....... awwwwwww.

I have not tried them yet unfortunately. I haven't even actually tried the reactions that I was going to a while back either. Maybe after May-be.
Fuck, I just bought some amino acids a while back, too. Should have fucking bought L-Tyrosine.
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Ru-lover - Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:16:33 EST 1yz9Gpwk No.77816 Reply
>>76958
How do you convert the bromo to hydroxy ?

Methylation of phenols require protection of the amine.
>>
Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Sat, 09 Apr 2016 00:30:30 EST 5mCp844Z No.77818 Reply
>>77816
48 hour reflux with caustic water in a teflon or sacrificial flask.
or you could vaporize it in a steel drum with a bunch of water, too i guess.

i actually just realised that with the amine. i'm sure if you toss a tboc or something on it, it'll be good to go. i gotta get on this in a bit. fuck i'm high
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Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Sat, 09 Apr 2016 00:33:37 EST Ov98fslc No.77819 Reply
>>77816
oh wait.
-bromination of acidic tyrosine,
-hydroxylation of two bromo groups
-tboc protection. or use a benzoyl group which i'm partial to
-methylation with 4x eq. methyliodide
-decarboxylation which will also deprotect the protecting group.
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Tue, 12 Apr 2016 15:50:59 EST xFG0CGS+ No.77826 Reply
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>>77825
does your route really seem that more feasible/facile than using vanillin as a starting material? it also is piss cheap, nitromethane is piss cheap, you also need a halogenation followed by a hydroxylation, and some methylating agent.


and reacting your trimethoxy phenylalanine would result in the methylester if its N-protected with tboc

and isnt there a much more potent isomere of mescaline anyways?
i seem to recall that its supposed to be less colourful yet more potent. no guarantee on that
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Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Wed, 13 Apr 2016 00:32:41 EST G8mu3scS No.77828 Reply
>>77826
you have a lot of good pictures lolmao

uhhhhh. vanillin would be a radical bromination ortho directing to the hydroxyl and meta to the ketone. so i like that idea. i'm projecting 10-25% contamination of the other isomer which wouldr eally not be that big of a deal due to multiple J3 interactions changing their bp or mp enough for easy, non-column purification.
okay we have 5-bromovanllin.

hydroxylate (caustic water), dual-methylate (2.5x eq. of MeI) later and you have 3,4,5-methoxybenzaldehyde. almost there?

Then what did you want to do? n-Lithilation to make a C-C bond? aldol condensation? I'm liking the last one but then you'd need to get rid of those C-O and C=O bonds which would be a bitch and a half. Another thing you can do is an enamide cross coupling with a specific palladium catalyst. But when we start talking about the palladium cycle, that's where I say "let's find a better starting reagent".

The reason I used tryptophan based starting materials is because of their ease in working with the non-aromatic groups. benzene chemistry is simple stuff. carbon-carbon sp3 stuff is much harder.................
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Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Wed, 13 Apr 2016 00:33:45 EST h58qGGXl No.77829 Reply
>>77826
mescaline has no isomers? escaline, proscaline, isoproscaline are all like 7-20x stronger than mescaline, doe
but i feel that they're different in feelings and not as smooth. they're easier to acquire but much edgier :(
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Wed, 13 Apr 2016 00:57:31 EST xFG0CGS+ No.77830 Reply
>>77828
>n-lithilation
how the fuck is anybody going to get organic lithium compounds? atleast iodomethane can be produced at home, allthough that probably gets you a one way trip to the oncologist if you fuck up.

youd want to do a henry condensation or nitro condensation with nitromethane -which is just racing car fuel, afaik- with a organic amine as a catalyst. since theres an acidic proton the intermediate nitroalcohol abstracts water and forms a conjugated nitro styrene. yields should be up to 80%. fuck ammonium acetate catalysis

then youd just reduce the olefin and the nitro group. LAH, CTH with Pd/C, Aluminium amalgam. maybe even good ole urushibara.
since nitromethane and vanillin are that inexpensive you could even do a prelimenary reduction test run to estimate the yields - i wish i had more nickel chloride - gotta start learning my electro chemistry.
no idea if urushibara is good for nitro styrenes, but for 2-nitropropenes the yields have been reported at 60%, even with a sloppily prepared urushibara U-Al-AA and in situ prepared Hydrogen with Al and HCl

wouldnt a iodination be more selective than a bromination and give a better leaving group for the hydroxylation? although i guess iodine and the iodate are harder to aquire, still beats BuLi
and wouldnt a Cu(1) catalyst theoretically make the reaction conditions for the hydroxylation less brutal?
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Green Fox - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 02:27:17 EST Yp/9tXs2 No.77831 Reply
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Just a few thoughts.

1) I like numbered lists.

2) This thread is a mess and I can't follow it so I'm sorry if it's been said already

3) OTC obsession is not logical. You could make almost any reagent at home. Some reagents require other reagents to make. It takes time and patience. If you are scared of toxic chemicals then jail is probably not for you either.

4) ACTUAL CHEMISTRY STUFF:

Alexander Shulgin tended to use 3,4,5-trimethoxybenzaldehyde as a basic starting material to all his drugs with this structural motif. There is probably a reason.

Bombastus' original post talks about functionalizing 4-hydroxyphenethylamine (from tyrosine). She wanted to brominate the ring meta to the hydroxide (electrophilic aromatic substitution), but of course she means ortho to it if she wanted to end up with mescaline. Hydroxide is strongly activating, and strongly ortho-para directing.

Step 2 is a nucleophilic substitution reaction with sodium methoxide. Again, the hydroxide group will direct this reaction to yield 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine. You could presumably get to any of the 3-C's shulgin made (he also called them X-escaline like butylescalnie, etc) from that.

If you just want mescaline, the final step would just require one equivalent of MeI.
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:18:12 EST xFG0CGS+ No.77832 Reply
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>>77831
1)
i like high yields and i cannot lie
3)
you do realise that this is a harm reduction site - or it atleast pretends to be from time to time? if theres a way around a very dangerous reaction it should be investigated.
besides that OTC reagents are also much less expensive to aquire most of the time, which improves the efficiency. "life is short and the arts take long", do you really want to bother with making a reagent you could substitute?

4)
shulgin used the aldehyde in order to perform a henry condensation and a subsequent reduction, maybe to avoid having to mess around with Aromatic substitutions or protecting groups. amines are bothersome and sensitive assholes.

for the first step youd run into problems with the iron trihalide since its a lewis acid and would be partially deactivated by any bases such as amines.

the second step of your synthesis wont work. the williamson ether synthesis has an SN2 mechanism therefore it neither works for tertiary alkyl halides nor on aryl halides. so youd have to hydroxylate the halogen first. oh and in order to perform the williamson ether synthesis youd need the alkoxide, which is presume youd want to make yourself. for that youd need sodium metal which may be a bit tricky make at home.

the third step also wont work since the iodomethane would just react with the amine and overalkylate it to a quarternary ammonium iodide. and then youd be left with 3/4 of the starting material and .25eq of that iodide salt
and youd have to make the methyliodide yourself, which would be almost facile.

but thanks for trying. btw your first step has a typo

5)
i earlier proposed using vanilline as the starting material.
youd have to halogenate it on the 5
then youd hydrolse that halide
then youd react that with methyliodide to get 3,4,5-trimethoxy benzaldehyde
then all youd have to do would be condense that with nitromethane -fucking OTC by the way - using an amine as catalyst
the resulting nitrostyrene would have to be reduced for which you could use a multitude of reagents
you could either reduce the functional groups on their own or both at the same time. i also mentioned a reduction catalyst that seems like an attractive option allthough i havent found any references of it being used to prepare phenethylamines. but it works quite well for amphetamines, which is quite convenient because you could substitute the nitromethane with nitroethane to get the amphetamine analogue of mescaline if you wanted to.
>>
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Green Fox - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:10:35 EST Yp/9tXs2 No.77835 Reply
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>>77832

re: 1) XD

3) this is a site for bullshitting. If anyone wanted to get serious about this stuff there are steps to make almost any process nearly 100% safe.

4) Seems like a good route. I wonder if there are any trimethoxy starting materials in the world that could be found.

5) How about one of these brominations?
http://www.organic-chemistry.org/synthesis/C1Br/bromoarenes.shtm

Right, Williamson, I remember finding that before and it doesn't seem like it would work.

Here's the most recent ref I found for forming the ether:

http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/chemistry/carey/student/olc/ch23reactionsarylhalides.html

It's not specific and it's just an educational example. (1/3 way down the page)

5) How selective would halogenation of vanilin be to the 5-position? Another idea is to start with 4-nitrobenzaldehyde. See pic.
https://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/virttxtjml/amine2.htm

Skip step 3. More work, but might be more regioselective?

thank u for ur salt & have nice day
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 18:16:38 EST xFG0CGS+ No.77836 Reply
>>77835


theres asarone, which is 2,4,5-trimethoxy benzaldehyde. wont get you to mescaline but to an isomer. i think the corresponding amphetamine is really potent.




diazonium salts are most of the times explosive, but since im guessing that a sandmeyer can be a onepot reaction, that shouldnt matter too much.
theres a typo in your picture.

whatd you do after youve got the nitro tri iodo benzene? looks like a dead end to me.

for the selectivity of halogenation of vaniline check a bit earlier in the thread. but im guessing that its fairly selective since 5 is meta to the carbonyl
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Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:11:34 EST V1Ngvki3 No.77837 Reply
>>77831
Wow I said "meta directing hydroxide group". Please don't whip me, thesis director. Too much /pss/ for me in thinking that "meta" means beside. Back to STEMfags

HEY GREEN FOX. I haven't see you in a while. WAZ GUUUUUD NIGGQQQAAA.

>>77831
3. OTC i would assume just doing what normal scientists do: try to not use nitrogen when applicable. try to do one pot synthesis where applicable.
i think there's a clause about avoiding N-Lithiations somwhere too

4. Yes. tyramine being a mild poison would be annoying but everything is poisonous
-Bombastus circa 1488
i also thought hydrolysis of bromine followed by iodination would work great. but then i completely fucking forgot about the methanol making this significantly easier. since you're using methanol, you can open up the 3rd hydroxide and from there, you can make:
Escaline
Proscaline
Isoproscaline
etc and NOT JUST MESCALINE - hurrayyyyyy

>>77836
why do you fixate yourself on vanilla? not taking the piss. i'm actually curious to what draws you to vanillin over the easily decarboxylate-able tyramine.
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Green Fox - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 21:46:44 EST Yp/9tXs2 No.77840 Reply
>>77837

Still have my grad robe. Between jobs.

I think the issue is it's hard to functionalize the ring with 3 MeO groups selectively, and not mess with the amine or anything else. People making MDMA don't start with meth and then just clamp a methelenedioxy ring on either. A retrosynthetic approach leads back to a starting material with the most difficult structural feature to synthesize.

>>77836

a) I know I should have written Br2 instead of Cl2. Won't work anyway.

b) You don't follow that exact picture. I was thinking of starting with 4-nitrobenzaldehyde instead of nitrobenzene, but that will dimerize during the NaOH step. :/
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Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Thu, 14 Apr 2016 22:36:14 EST PakkjDp+ No.77841 Reply
>>77840
damn. you in canada or england?

and meh. toss a tboc or acetyl group on it and call it a day. column maybe necessary but 75% yield is practical. especially with the steric hindrence of the phenol by the methoxy groups. also primary, ethylamine really helps it be more vulnerable to attack.
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:22:27 EST xFG0CGS+ No.77842 Reply
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>>77837
fuck amino acids, i wont go back to that shit unless theres a way to do a kolbe electrolysis on them.
vanilin is cheaper, no protection group needed. five steps in total with easy to get/make chemicals should urushibara work. what kind of decarboxylation would you want to perform anyways?

and the hydroxy on the fourth is open on vaniline too, so youd get the chance to make and derivative of that as well as any amphetamine thereof.
and i thought you didnt like escaline and so on and so on.
>>77840
whatcha graduating in?

naw, i meant that youd need HNO2 for a diazo salt
im a bit confused, nitrobenzaldehyde doesnt have acidic protons, so it couldnt pull any condensations. might undergo a carnizarro though
>>
Nell Cruppertog - Fri, 20 May 2016 12:51:40 EST cOHpZlwa No.77898 Reply
>>76974
Bombastus,, long time reader, first time poster. Do you have any references for synthesizing psilocybin/psilocin from tryptamine? Or for synthesizing various other trymatimes from typramine? I'm fairly new to organic chemistry but am learning quickly
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press !QUHukXEvkY - Tue, 24 May 2016 15:45:50 EST QpnKQ24z No.77902 Reply
>>77901
you might want to take a closer look at the amine.
>>
Sidney Sullerford - Tue, 24 May 2016 17:22:41 EST cOHpZlwa No.77904 Reply
>>77902
Can't believe I didn't notice that earlier, how would this complicate a tryptamine -> psilocin synthesis?
>>
Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Wed, 25 May 2016 02:40:02 EST Ym/MkWsP No.77905 Reply
>>77904
Long time poster, first time reader.
It wouldn't. You would just need to add a very strong reducing agent. Either an organometalic base + sodium hydride. Or you can use mescaline.
The problem is the activation of the 4th or 5th position on the indole. That's the only difficulty.

I want to get Quetz or someone to lock up these threads and we should restart a phenylethylamine questions thread and a tryptamine questions thread. This would make more sense and go back to the beginning without the bulky other posts.

Anyway, to answer your question, tryptamine can be alkylated at th nitrogen to make N,N di-methyl. But it also exists in unfortunately high equilibrium with the alpha position (carbon one away from the nitrogen) to make alpha,N,N-trimethyl tryptamine. (look up aMT).

This means that you should really be starting with tryptophan which prevents the alkylation of the alpha position. Then you convert the amide to an amine using the method i told you in the first paragraph.

Again, it's going to be difficult to activate the 4th or 5th position selectively. I'll have to look into that, actually.
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press - Wed, 25 May 2016 16:28:51 EST fcMijPsC No.77906 Reply
>>77905
howd you selectively alkylated to a dimethyl amine?
you couldnt use dimethylsulfate or iodomethane, because thatd just get you a quart. ammonium salt. would you acylate, reduce, acylate and reduce again?

and to be perfectly frank, theres already a machine that allows you to turn shit and or rice into psilocibin. growing shrooms and then extracting the compound is waaaaay more cost efficient. all youd need is a shroom farm, some alcohol, a freezer, some filters and datsit.
>>
Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Wed, 25 May 2016 20:38:33 EST dORvzyL7 No.77909 Reply
>>77906
10lbs of manure. Toss it into a metal drum, leave the cap slightly ajar, and put that in an oil bath to sit at around 120deg for 2 hours. This prevents pyrolytic tars from building up that stunts mushroom growth.
Then you take a baby swimming pool and infect the whole manure patch with mushrooms. Once the mycelium is large enough, introduce some mouldy bread and that turbocharges the growth of the mushrooms as it tries to out-compete the competitor mushrooms.
Though this method, a friend of mine can grow 1x of dried mushrooms per 3-5x of manure. 1g of dried mushrooms can yield around 8-10mg of psilocin.
>>
Bombastus !RZEwn1AX62!!xXxJO70U - Wed, 25 May 2016 20:42:23 EST Ym/MkWsP No.77910 Reply
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>>77906
Back to the chemistry:
Selective alkylation has to be done with the amide, not the amine. (that' snot really selective. but it is selective compared to tryptamine).

I misread his question. Whoops. You can start with the primary amide, alkylate with a methylating agent (methyl iodide would be perfect. Alternatively, you could use a solution of in situ methylbromide if you're doing "home chemistry"), and reduce using LiAlH. That was what I was talking about.

But otherwise, yes. If you start with tryptamine, you make the alpha-methylated product as well (tri-methyl-tryptamine). Which was what I was telling him not to do.

Sorry. On opioids yesterday and was all scatterbrained. I mean, I am now, too. But I still gotta find some excuse to pin my retardation on..........
>>
Vehk !7HYGxe5v5c - Sat, 28 May 2016 07:20:51 EST 8SVxqyNq No.77918 Reply
>>77910

Thebacon is no longer in common use in Europe.
>>
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Alice Fuckinggold - Sat, 28 May 2016 09:20:30 EST FN2WDMDT No.77919 Reply
>>76974
You can buy 2kg of l-tryptophan on ebay for $80.
>>
Alice Fuckinggold - Sat, 28 May 2016 09:31:28 EST FN2WDMDT No.77920 Reply
>>76981
1mg costs like $25. I honestly don't think anyone would ever need more than that unless they were printing which you could probably get for free. Why is everyone overestimating prices?
>>
Alice Fuckinggold - Sat, 28 May 2016 09:46:02 EST FN2WDMDT No.77921 Reply
>>76986
>There has been a misunderstanding of hydrolysis to lysergic acid that I just discovered myself last night. I was looking at a joint paper by Opava and Galena published in 2000 that does an enzymatic hydrolysis using microbes, but as I read the paper they proceeded to perform the hydrolysis by normal KOH means. I noticed that the hydrolysis was very mild and low yielding and did not use microbes so I was wondering what was going on. But then I saw that what they were doing was performing hydrolysis on ergotamine to lysergamide (ergine) and then stop and continue the rest of the hydrolysis by enzymatic means. So I went and revisited all the prior ergot hydrolysis' and it occurred to me that hydrolysis of ergopeptines is actually a 2-step process. When you perform a hydrolysis you are actually performing a hydrolysis of the ergopeptine to a lysergic amide (LSA) and then after you have LSA you perform a hydrolysis to lysergic acid. This has never really been pointed out because it is all the same procedure, but it is actually important to note when researching different hydrolysis'. For example, an hydrolysis on LSA's extracted straight from HBWR seeds does not have to be as harsh as one performed on ergotamine which has to first undergo hydrolysis to LSA and THEN to lysergic acid. That is why some hydrolysis' you come across can be weaker or stronger. For example, the Galena/Opava hydrolysis was performed at %4 KOH in ethanol for 2 hours (only acid hydrolysis actually requires water as a solvent). This is in contradiction to Smith and Tinnis in the 1930's who declared that lysergic acid cannot be achieved below a %7 KOH content as it is too mild. But Galena/Opava was just performing hydrolysis on ergotamine to LSA, not fully to lysergic acid, so they could do it under milder conditions. And also what wasn't known in the 1930's with regards to hydrolysis of ergopeptines is that heat and time can make up for milder basic conditions. Hence Shulgin's very mild hydrolysis performed just in water at 75c with a mere %6.7 KOH content but done over 4 hours. So basically hydrolysis of ergopeptines is a 2-step process and depending on how many of those 2-steps you need to achieve, how quickly you want to achieve them, and in what yield you want to achieve them dictates KOH content, temp, time, and solvent. Basically you can play with those 4 things and do a hydrolysis to your required ergot substance however you like. Knowing all this now I find Shulgin's hydrolysis to be more attractive verses before when I thought it was lacking.
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Nell Gecklecocke - Fri, 23 Dec 2016 23:17:17 EST DPjhXpIm No.78415 Reply
>>76973
A good old methylamination with benzaldehyde then a reduction for some trimethoxyamphetamine, a 1000 percent increse in potentcy.
>>
Schepperschop - Sat, 24 Dec 2016 13:33:31 EST xTIigKo1 No.78417 Reply
Find the cactus>>Eat the cactus
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press - Sun, 25 Dec 2016 11:24:27 EST Hzvahzwj No.78419 Reply
>>78415
i think you mean a henry condensation with a following reduction?

tfw calmus oil is expenis as fuck and you cant just go via reductive amination for tma2

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