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Harm Reduction Notes for the COVID-19 Pandemic

Freebase vs Salt Vaporize

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- Sat, 10 Sep 2016 00:01:05 EST zsw9I8fO No.78226
File: 1473480065769.jpg -(324209B / 316.61KB, 503x376) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. Freebase vs Salt Vaporize
Two questions
1) What's the reason that freebase drugs are preferred for vaporizing/smoking instead of salts?

2) Will lye and baking soda both freebase a drug the same? I'm guessing it just requires more baking soda because it's a weaker base?
>>
trypto - Sun, 11 Sep 2016 18:09:14 EST azuLMkh2 No.78231 Reply
>>78226
  1. Salts have a higher vaporazition temp, since ionic bonds are stronger than the h-bonds and such of crystals. So when you try to vape/smoke a salt, the organic molecules tend to break apart before the compound vaporizes. So can you smoke/vap cocaine-HCl? Maybe a bit, but it's very wasteful. The vape temp is too high, so the molecule breaks apart. On the other hand, crystalized coke vaporizes much easier.

2. Depends on the pKa of the thing you're freebasing. If it's high enough, then it doesn't make a difference. If it's too low, then you'll end up with excess carbonate ions. Maybe. I'm not certain.
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Isabella Droddledudge - Sun, 11 Sep 2016 22:45:02 EST zsw9I8fO No.78232 Reply
>>78231
Thanks. Next question:

So if you have a base alkaloid, then you use a generous amount of HCl solution to acidify it to its salt form, then simply evaporate the liquid leaving the solid salt behind, won't it still be painful on your skin or membranes? The excess HCl is still there, right? So wouldn't it burn your mouth/nose/(rectum)/etc?
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trypto - Mon, 12 Sep 2016 10:48:06 EST depIAyY2 No.78233 Reply
>>78232
> use a generous amount of HCl solution to acidify it to its salt form, then simply evaporate the liquid leaving the solid salt behind

The usual procedure involves making the solution so acidic that the Alkaloid-HCl salt precipitates out. That powder is then filtered and rinsed.

Yes, this Alkaloid-HCl is somewhat acidic. But not corrosively so.
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Martin Brevingdock - Mon, 12 Sep 2016 17:33:03 EST GVKt+ILk No.78234 Reply
>>78233
I've never heard of making it so acidic that the salted alkaloid simply precipitates out. I thought you had to use a solvent thats immiscible with water.

If you make it super-acidic and somehow collect that precipitate, it seems like you'd still have a bunch of the salted alkaloid still dissolved in the remaining HCl solution, i.e. just seems inefficient/wasteful.

Sorry am I missing something?

I just want to convert heroin base to salt the right way, so I don't know exactly what to do and I'm trying to learn how it works.

And to be clear, you're saying that an excess HCl will not hurt if I then snorted whatever precipitated out? Idealy my dried powder would be Heroin-HCl, 1 mole per 1 mole (right?), so if I use too much HCl and then there's a bunch of excess H and Cl ions, wouldn't those be acidic and be caustic?
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trypto - Mon, 12 Sep 2016 19:46:43 EST depIAyY2 No.78235 Reply
>>78234
>I've never heard of making it so acidic that the salted alkaloid simply precipitates out. I thought you had to use a solvent thats immiscible with water.
Typically, the deprotonated alkaloid is soluble in non-polar solvents. So you would dissolve the alkaloid in the nonpolar layer, then either crystalize it or let the solvent evaporate. That's the freebase. Zero HCl.

>If you make it super-acidic and somehow collect that precipitate, it seems like you'd still have a bunch of the salted alkaloid still dissolved in the remaining HCl solution, i.e. just seems inefficient/wasteful.

Not really "super" acidic. I think we're just talking ph 2-4. That's enough to protonate the alkaloid (so you have AH(+)), which then forms an ionic bond with the cation, so you have AH(+)-Cl(-), which precipitates out of the acidic solution. You're right to think that some alkaloids might still be in solution. You could have an equilibrium where there's some precipitate AND solutes. But that's why the solution just needs to be acidic enough. That's where you need to check the pKa's of your desired salts.


>And to be clear, you're saying that an excess HCl will not hurt if I then snorted whatever precipitated out?

Sorry, but I have zero experience with heroin. I'm just talking more theoretical shit, and even with that I'm pretty rusty.


>Idealy my dried powder would be Heroin-HCl, 1 mole per 1 mole (right?), so if I use too much HCl and then there's a bunch of excess H and Cl ions, wouldn't those be acidic and be caustic?

If you're drying the solution, then yes. It could be caustic. That's why a precipitate is much more desirable. You could precipitate the salt, then rinse with cold solvent to get rid of excess acid.

It's not just a matter of being acidic enough (like I implied before), but also what the counter-ion is. It depends on the alkaloid. Sometimes the AH-Cl salt is soluble in water, but AH-HSO4 precipitates out. It depends on the compound. I don't know how heroin behaves, though.
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trypto - Mon, 12 Sep 2016 21:49:20 EST depIAyY2 No.78236 Reply
>>78235
>Typically, the deprotonated alkaloid is soluble in non-polar solvents. So you would dissolve the alkaloid in the nonpolar layer, then either crystalize it or let the solvent evaporate. That's the freebase. Zero HCl.
Forgot to say, so this is done with a basic aqueous layer. NaOH or the like.
>>
Beatrice Brogglebitch - Wed, 14 Sep 2016 02:50:06 EST zsw9I8fO No.78237 Reply
>>78236
I don't know, so do I need to use a NP solvent to get the salted alkaloid out or can I safety evap all acid liquid?
>>
trypto - Thu, 15 Sep 2016 20:52:08 EST xd+IJDAd No.78246 Reply
>>78237
The NP solvent gets out the freebase alkaloid, not the salt. In general, no you can't evap all the acidic liquid, expecting a true 1:1 pairing of acid and alkaloid (I think you'd need equal pKa's for that).

You should really just find a tek that's been vetted by a good online community for whatever it is you're trying to do.
>>
Bombastus !uYErosQbLM!!Mybq1UbK - Thu, 15 Sep 2016 22:05:24 EST 4ppVjZXo No.78247 Reply
>>78226
>>78231
Bicarbonate is over 10 to the power of 3 so it's a strong base. Dissociation doesn't matter if the ice table is over 500, remember?

Baking soda is only not used during A/B since it can give off carbon dioxide which can create intermediate carbonic acid which interferes with the measurement. It also doesn't dissolve in water that well. Otherwise, it's a strong base and pretty much as strong as lye.
>>
Martin Dondlehall - Fri, 23 Sep 2016 18:29:47 EST zsw9I8fO No.78261 Reply
I'm going to use some acid to convert the heroin base solution to heroin salt, then use hexane which should dissolve heroin salts.

As for choosing the salt, does it matter too much? Would certain salts be more painful in the nose?
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trypto - Fri, 23 Sep 2016 20:23:15 EST HCqFzr56 No.78262 Reply
>>78261
Hexane will not dissolve salts. Find a tek for whatever it is you're trying to do.
>>
Nell Dugglebere - Fri, 23 Sep 2016 21:42:18 EST zsw9I8fO No.78263 Reply
1474681338511.jpg -(42176B / 41.19KB, 549x383) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>>78262
Maybe heroin makes an exception.


What's the easiest and purest acid I can buy otc?
>>
Cornelius Bonningfuck - Sun, 25 Sep 2016 19:13:50 EST zsw9I8fO No.78265 Reply
>>78264
If I evaporate some store-bought muriatic acid, and there's no residue, does that ensure that I have only a diluted solution of HCl? No additives?
>>
>>
trypto - Mon, 26 Sep 2016 21:45:33 EST 9rpP9WKx No.78267 Reply
>>78263
That grpahic you have implies heroin HCl isn't soluble in hexane... But it is soluble in chloroform. So either chloroform or Dichloromethane should work.
>>
Edward Nottingpock - Sun, 02 Oct 2016 06:17:06 EST ZcMU69D7 No.78269 Reply
>>78233
When you evaporate a solution of HCl water the water evaporates and the HCl goes back into the gas phase leaving behind any salts you may have formed.
The problem is that it's just hard to get rid of all the water without leaving a hydrate or some moisture sticking around. You can try drying in the presence of a desiccant like NaOH
>>
Bombastus !uYErosQbLM!!Mybq1UbK - Thu, 06 Oct 2016 02:40:38 EST Req4jw5M No.78274 Reply
>>78269
>hard to dry
>hydrates
Normally true. However. When it comes to opiates. Not really.
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Doris Fomblefuck - Thu, 06 Oct 2016 13:08:35 EST QFXcUDR6 No.78276 Reply
>>78269
Okay great so that's what I was originally asking. You can make the pH of the solution acidic enough to convert all of it, then simply let it evaporate and you should have 1:1 mole of drug:salt. No need for a selective solvent to separate the drug:salt from excess acid and water.
>>
Albert Wiffington - Thu, 20 Oct 2016 12:58:49 EST /9+sroAe No.78317 Reply
>What's the reason that freebase drugs are preferred for vaporizing/smoking instead of salts?

Because most people don't have vaporizers that can heat up to 3000 degrees Fahrenheit.
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Clara Blythegold - Fri, 21 Oct 2016 18:17:20 EST zsw9I8fO No.78321 Reply
>>78317
Then why do people vape Methamphetamine HCl all the time?

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