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Harm Reduction Notes for the COVID-19 Pandemic

Now Playing on /wooo/tube -

The Undertaker

- Thu, 21 May 2020 20:12:40 EST yWbCq3X5 No.6396658
File: 1590106360996.jpg -(99134B / 96.81KB, 1280x720) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size. The Undertaker
Why do so many people hate him now? Now people pretend that he wasn't ever a good wrestler simple cause he's had some bad years recently.
The Miz - Thu, 21 May 2020 20:15:09 EST T27T75Qv No.6396660 Reply
>bad years recently

the first decade of his career was shit
Mikey - Thu, 21 May 2020 20:24:38 EST KO01/Ois No.6396665 Reply
He's cousins and friends with 3 shoot racist
He supports fascism
He refused to put people over
He hurt Kanyon for being a member of the LGBT community
Vader - Thu, 21 May 2020 20:43:34 EST XHVceXXl No.6396675 Reply
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He didn't have good matches during the first decade of his career, but to be honest, The Undertaker gimmick has never been about workrate. From day one, the crux of his character has been centered around the mystique & presence the character was able to project to the audience, hence why he was over even when he was putting on stinkers with the likes of Giant Gonzalez. He didn't need to be a ring general, because the presentation more than made up for it.

Taker would go on to have an incredibly strong run of good-great matches from the late-2000s until the end of his mini feud with The Shield in 2013. Unfortunately, ever since WrestleMania XXX, almost everything he's done since 2014 (par the two fun matches with Brock in 2015) is a sad reminder that Undertaker's best days are long behind him & he has become a shell of what he used to be. He doesn't have the presence his gimmick used to have, his mobility in the ring is shot to the point that he probably can't work a full match without smoke & mirrors nowadays & to top it all off, every match he's had in the last 5 years has been matches that should've been the end of his career (vs. Reigns at WM33, vs. John at WM 34, vs. AJ at WM36), or has been him embarrassing himself in the ring in matches that's done more damage to his legacy than good (vs. Goldberg, him & Kane vs. DX, vs. Reigns at WM33, etc.)

Add all this in with the formerly reserved Taker now becoming just another wrestler with a shit twitter account & people rightfully giving him shit for his behavior towards WCW talent like Kanyon, as well as that Undertaker copypasta getting posted ad-nauseam it's easy to see why there's so much hate for the man nowadays. IMO, I still appreciate the best of the Undertaker persona & think it's one of the better gimmicks in wrestling history, but his time to hang it up came a long time ago & even though I know he's gonna lace the boots up again in 2021, I really wish he hung it up & stopped fucking up his legacy.
Call-Me-Kevin - Thu, 21 May 2020 21:26:18 EST iLe2GkB4 No.6396691 Reply
I didn't have a negative opinion on him before but everything post mania 30 really soured me.
Jervis Cottonbelly - Thu, 21 May 2020 21:35:51 EST BxsoGG2K No.6396695 Reply
He stayed too long and people turned.
Hurricane Helms - Thu, 21 May 2020 21:40:20 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6396698 Reply
are they even friends? they never seemed particularly close. and weren't Yokozuna and Savio Vega and Godfather part of his Bone Street Krew?
Kotenks !!rbabk2zH - Thu, 21 May 2020 21:41:18 EST FWjYRePR No.6396699 Reply
What's there to like? He rarely put anyone over. His promos were painful to get through. He was bad more than he was good. He had some great matches here and there but his body of work is overall middling to poor. He's not a wrestler I think much of.
Finlay - Thu, 21 May 2020 21:47:29 EST G9cW5MRV No.6396700 Reply

Pretty much this. He never clicked with me, and I always found his matches boring or not appealing to me. Even as a mark, I was a huge Kane fan and I would skip their match at WrestleMania 20 when I watched the DVD. He's stuck around way too long.
Santino Marella - Thu, 21 May 2020 21:53:46 EST tzs2tHuX No.6396701 Reply
Ruined his own legacy. If he retired a decade ago people would remember him fondly. A lot of new wrestling fans who decided they hate him as well.

He was super over when I was a kid and when I became a wrestling nerd as a teen the internet was pretty kind to him. Nobody really had a lot of bad things to say about him. That's only been new. Fuck him anyways.
Hajime Ohara - Thu, 21 May 2020 22:08:48 EST P6udQcnq No.6396707 Reply
Lebron James stood up Taker when he came to meet him during one of the Cav games.

Taker is very "Look at this d00d"
King RIKI - Thu, 21 May 2020 22:49:10 EST vSMiM6xq No.6396713 Reply
HBK vs Taker 1 should have been his final match, that was his best and everything after Brock ending the streak sullied his work. Now, ultimately, his luster is worn thin & people are tired of his old boring schtick.
Hurricane Helms - Thu, 21 May 2020 23:00:17 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6396714 Reply
His recent bad stuff doesn't make his past good stuff retroactively bad
Kid Kash - Thu, 21 May 2020 23:02:34 EST Dx7fpIB+ No.6396715 Reply
People fell for forced WWE memes.
Hurricane Helms - Thu, 21 May 2020 23:29:13 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6396717 Reply
>Taker also apparently made the Shad memorial thread disappear

not helping his case
Wendi Richter - Fri, 22 May 2020 00:06:59 EST bpHY+++t No.6396725 Reply
I think it's WWE's insistence that he's one of the GOATs, despite the fact that he's had as many shit years as good ones and was never a huge draw or a particularly remarkable talent, just a guy who was consistently over because he was pushed well. His recent runs have been garbage and soured what good will fans had for him, which in turn has made people re evaluate his career as a whole.

Also Mark Calloway seems like your typical angry boomer. Muh flag, muh gunz n jesus bible basher, so that ruined the mystique for alot of people.
King RIKI - Fri, 22 May 2020 01:25:17 EST vSMiM6xq No.6396743 Reply
> Stereotypes Rock as a blackman who smoked weed trynna get some crotch
which is how weed even became illegal & demonized as a black mans drug to get laid
> White Devils referance
ah, so boomer taker really was always this way.
El Santo - Fri, 22 May 2020 03:04:43 EST kigxW+OO No.6396758 Reply
Pretty much everything he's done since The Streak ended has-been (ooh) a "this guy is STILL here?" moment

>even Bix
Scott Armstrong - Fri, 22 May 2020 03:10:31 EST 7xcAl0qY No.6396762 Reply
His refusal to retire after the streak made him look like a dork.

>Squashing Bray Wyatt (building new stars lol)
>Kicking Lesnar in the nuts
>Vince McMahon calling him his bitch
>Putting Reigns over
Luke Gallows - Fri, 22 May 2020 03:11:33 EST cfOXxE22 No.6396763 Reply
1590131493583.jpg -(238672B / 233.08KB, 1400x1400) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
mmmhmmm wouldn't want to take some pure strikes from this locker room leader
Shuri - Fri, 22 May 2020 08:24:03 EST RT0W+Cf0 No.6396843 Reply
He was also AFRAID of Kanyon and DDP of possibly taking his spot.

Taker was untalented and insecure about himself
Conor O'Brian - Fri, 22 May 2020 09:38:59 EST 4gmh45ky No.6396895 Reply
Dude, seriously calm down. UT is DEFINITELY whatevers, but your tone is getting a little too cancel culture and it's sickening
Hurricane Helms - Fri, 22 May 2020 10:30:23 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6396925 Reply
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tbh, i think its someone "working."
Taker's getting a bunch of shit on twitter for the right wing boomer t-shirts he wears in the Last Ride. Bix keeps referencing this SS t shirt in the 90s.

Discourse seems to be broken around taking about pro wrestling. It depends on how you feel about "separate art from artist" but if you cannot do that, you probably shouldn't like *any* wrestlers, except for, like idk, Danhausen and Kylie Rae.

Most wrestlers are Republikan, the younger gens hide it, the older richer ones don't care about hiding it. It is a business built on lying to people to get their money and filled with backstage politics. The people that usually get ahead are the ones who are willing to be alpha asshole politicking types. Wrestling is not a straight meritocracy that's just based on "most organically popular with the crowd."

There's also another broken aspect of wrestling conversation going around right now with tying morality into creative judgements:
People don't want to talk about the moral failings of wrestlers they like
People don't want to talk about the creative highlights of wrestlers they disagree with morally.

It has to be absolute. It can't be a nuanced summation.
Conor O'Brian - Fri, 22 May 2020 10:44:30 EST 4gmh45ky No.6396929 Reply
Okay, bud. Now YOU slow down. We do talk about wrestlers moral failings, like, all the time. This is a dogshit industry that we enjoy. Whether those takes are nuanced or absolute is irrelevant because it changes every week. There's no right way of looking at it. I just think >>6396743's post was instinctually slimey - like is this person even a wrestling fan? Are they new?
Hurricane Helms - Fri, 22 May 2020 10:50:47 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6396932 Reply
>I just think post was instinctually slimey - like is this person even a wrestling fan? Are they new?
I think its a shitposter using a flag that is false to look like an extreme exotico type
Tugboat - Fri, 22 May 2020 10:51:37 EST x8ohQNwM No.6396933 Reply

>WWE's insistence that he's one of the GOATs

This tbh. Taker's got shit promos and matches and a couple burials and his current real life persona blows. But the biggest thing that'll always kill the guy for me is how many people genuinely think he's the greatest wrestler of all time. Fuck off.
Vader - Fri, 22 May 2020 11:19:22 EST XHVceXXl No.6396946 Reply
I think he's above Triple H in terms of being a legend in the eyes of fans, considering that unlike when WWE tried to convince people Hunter was done, there was a far more positive reaction to Taker when it seemed like he was retiring, ala his Streak ending or him losing to Roman at WM 33
GAMI - Fri, 22 May 2020 11:20:56 EST yWbCq3X5 No.6396948 Reply
Undertaker is universally respected by not just fans but other industry folks alike.
Tugboat - Fri, 22 May 2020 12:22:58 EST x8ohQNwM No.6396988 Reply
I don't deny the guy's commitment to the wrestling business and he has had some really good matches and segments. Memorable at least. I just don't think GOAT conversation should include 50 names and it does when you include Triple H, Taker, Michaels, etc.
Bob Armstrong - Fri, 22 May 2020 13:44:42 EST 6drDM9Y6 No.6397033 Reply

Sort of in the same boat here. I think Taker has his place, he's definitely toward the top in a list of the greatest, but if you want to narrow down the list of the greatest to a top five or maybe even a top ten, I'm not sure I could fit him in there unless I based it entirely on his gimmick or longevity. There's no doubt that Taker's streak has been a draw a Wrestlemania, though, at least until it was ended.

He's in a really strange spot that is similar to Triple H, in my opinion. They're both good, they're both better than or had a greater impact than most wrestlers that break into the business, but for whatever reason I don't perceive them among the greatest of all time. He was never "the guy", his championship reigns (though admittedly meaningless in the grand scheme) were all transitional, he had two stand-out matches in his entire career and they were both against Shawn Michaels, who can pull a good match out of almost anyone. I don't know. I like 'Taker, though. I didn't hate seeing him on my screen before he got too old.
Hurricane Helms - Fri, 22 May 2020 13:52:57 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6397036 Reply
>he had two stand-out matches in his entire career and they were both against Shawn Michaels,

I disagree with this. I do think HITC 98 is an incredible spectacle. Maybe it fails under a very specific definition of "match quality" but I think that definition is limiting.

wrestling "match quality" should have a lot more variety and interpretation than what it's been pigeonholed into.
Sabu - Fri, 22 May 2020 13:56:08 EST J10K+5dU No.6397037 Reply
He's a mark for himself who was never the guy, yet WWE makes out he is one of the greatest of all time. People didn't like him during the 90s either, he fucking sucked and his American Bad Ass shtick was embarrassing. Kane was way cooler.
Hurricane Helms - Fri, 22 May 2020 13:57:37 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6397038 Reply
>People didn't like him during the 90s either
[citation needed]
Hurricane Helms - Fri, 22 May 2020 13:58:57 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6397039 Reply
1590170337553.png -(128835B / 125.82KB, 1720x614) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
> Now people pretend that he wasn't ever a good wrestler simple cause he's had some bad years recently.

pic related
Tito Santana - Fri, 22 May 2020 14:52:41 EST Td7mmGNM No.6397064 Reply
People forget that outside of freakshow matches in the 90s he'd work good matches with a bunch of people. He had great chemistry with Mick, Shawn and Bret and was really athletic.
Hurricane Helms - Fri, 22 May 2020 15:03:12 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6397072 Reply
yeah the standards have changed but his match with Jake the Snake at WM 8 is good for the time. I also think his match with Snuka at 7 is also good.

And something like his Hogan match at Survivor Series... it's not supposed to be a "workrate" match but it's a well done story. Does that mean it's bad or something?

He also worked well with Vader and Goldust too.
Tugboat - Fri, 22 May 2020 19:49:05 EST x8ohQNwM No.6397194 Reply
I dunno why people parrot this. WWF was on its way belly up with Shawn and Diesel. If The Undertaker really COULD have been the guy, why wouldn't Vince put the world title on him to pull them out of bankruptcy? It's because he couldn't. He was no better than Shawn or Bret. Then Austin and Rock arrived. Then once they left they still opted to go Triple H and then Batista/Cena. Never Taker.
Raisha Saeed - Fri, 22 May 2020 20:01:01 EST XHVceXXl No.6397203 Reply
>If The Undertaker really COULD have been the guy, why wouldn't Vince put the world title on him to pull them out of bankruptcy?
Because even by the mid-90s Taker's body was beginning to pile up with injuries & couldn't be trusted in a long-term position in the main event? Because Undertaker's role in the company was pretty much always a special attraction that was protected by a mystique character, rather than being positioned as the top face of the company? Because even with the New Generation era bombing, Vince's goal was trying to push young talent, which wasn't the Undertaker?
Netjester !AI.skYnEt - Fri, 22 May 2020 20:01:05 EST iLikEToleARn No.6397204 Reply
Other than that, they’re bitching about another person who was the best chance out of money, it wasn't the only player that he had a dry branch than talk to a real tv pilot, it's the broken up for her return to AAA in a mafia style car bombing until C---- B----- sacrificed himself and others to show for when I first played it since, smackdown on fox and CW's howie mandel show drew a 0.67 rating in the url from cubsfan's twitter at some point, the feuds or the poster.
Lena Yada - Fri, 22 May 2020 20:19:31 EST It2BUKqt No.6397218 Reply
>smackdown on fox and CW's howie mandel show drew a 0.67 rating in the url from cubsfan's twitter at some point

Big Scoops NJ with an early ratings report!
Santino Marella - Fri, 22 May 2020 20:42:03 EST Nwp9fWmA No.6397232 Reply
>f The Undertaker really COULD have been the guy, why wouldn't Vince put the world title on him to pull them out of bankruptcy?

Vince's logic in the old days:
>Andre with the world title gives me one attraction, a world title match and an Andre match gives me TWO attractions

And he tried to mold Taker into that Andre role: a larger than life "presence" that could be a draw with or without the title.
>It's because he couldn't.
Except he literally did at WM 13. WWF was still in the shitter at the beginning of 97. Giving him the title was the "break glass in case of emergency" moment
Lena Yada - Fri, 22 May 2020 23:03:43 EST It2BUKqt No.6397260 Reply
>Vince's logic in the old days: Andre with the world title gives me one attraction, a world title match and an Andre match gives me TWO attractions

Honestly, that's solid thinking.
Mil M‡scaras - Fri, 22 May 2020 23:16:44 EST n9eKBgQH No.6397263 Reply
That's because it's Vince Sr's logic
If you want insight into how Vince would book Andre, look at Big Show's career
Savannah - Sat, 23 May 2020 01:15:19 EST x8ohQNwM No.6397355 Reply
>He tried to mold Taker into Andre
And failed.

>WM 13
Overshadowed entirely by Bret and Austin. Needed 1 more year and an entirely different Texan to save the company.

The Undertaker has many accolades in his career. Being a big draw is not one of them. He was never "the guy" for whatever that is worth because he wasn't good enough.
red_ !!HIS4h8VG - Sat, 23 May 2020 04:04:11 EST i9YCyya6 No.6397441 Reply
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I think the social mediaMDKshit hasn't helped.

If you can keep your head down and mouth shut you mostly fly under the radar. I think Taker has done that for a long time. The shoot interviews I've seen seem to suggest when he was a locker room leader Taker ruled mainly through silence and presence.

It's one of those weird things when someone gets exposed for one thing, you start turning over the stones and finding more shit under each of them.

For the most part everyone was aware of his treatment of guys like DDP and Kanyon, most ex-WCW guys have spoken out about his treatment (and the company as a whole) against those newer guys.

People look at things with a fresh perspective sometimes and they see something that was always there.
Pokka !!4vMEXnV5 - Sat, 23 May 2020 04:39:29 EST M1ahJWky No.6397446 Reply
wrestling fandom is weird like that. People 'know' things but are reluctant to criticise people in high positions, until things reach some kind of breaking point or there's a shift in the zeitgeist. People like Undertaker and VinceMcMahon may routinely come in for rightful criticism nowadays, but it's not like there was any big moment where something got exposed, the mood just changed against them.
Silver King - Sat, 23 May 2020 06:15:54 EST mw4CBYWk No.6397460 Reply
In wrestling you literally either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.
Gangrel - Sat, 23 May 2020 07:38:40 EST tlIvk+wQ No.6397494 Reply
>Lesnar beats Taker clean at WM30
>Taker gets angry for gloating about Lesnar ending his WM streak
>Kicks Lesnar in the nuts as a babyface
>Lesnar, the heel, still wins clean

I believe it was this moment people started to turn against Taker. WWE made him look bad. LeBron noshowing Taker was the definite point that broke the camel's back. Taker has always been respected veteran and now he is doing it for the paycheck. Even being a WWE ambassador for the sake of paycheck.

Money & Miles, brother. You can't be respected and being a mark for money at the same time. Taker chose the latter, and he is getting vilified for it.
Sarita - Sat, 23 May 2020 07:59:37 EST HkQcIkvY No.6397507 Reply
Lot of people in this thread complaining about Undertaker being dogshit who would scream their lungs out if they heard that bell toll at a show.

It isn't about workrate, it isn't about his personal life. Undertaker has a connection to the crowd you simply cannot teach.
The Artist Formerly Known as Prince Iaukea - Sat, 23 May 2020 08:03:49 EST oUq1xYd+ No.6397509 Reply

Plus, wrestling is about making money. If Taker makes millions working one match per year then who the fuck are we to say he isn't the best of all time with the deal he has? Smarks can cry and bitch but Taker is a legend in the industry, inside and outside the ring, he makes millions working one match then fucks off home to fornicate with his wife. Did Sting ever get a deal like that? Nope.
Super Shisa - Sat, 23 May 2020 08:30:55 EST cfOXxE22 No.6397526 Reply
Unless you're Undertaker's accountant I really don't understand why you give so much of a shit about his income.

As a wrestling fan I only care about the quality of wrestlers, not how large their bank account is. In my opinion, Undertaker is nowhere near the actual top guys and most of his career was incredibly weak
The Artist Formerly Known as Prince Iaukea - Sat, 23 May 2020 08:33:03 EST oUq1xYd+ No.6397527 Reply

Well, I don't need to be Undertaker's accountant to know that the point in being a pro wrestler is to make the most money possible.
The Artist Formerly Known as Prince Iaukea - Sat, 23 May 2020 08:36:32 EST oUq1xYd+ No.6397529 Reply

From a pure fan and workrate standpoint , he's not one of my favorites either but he's always been around, he's always been mega over and he's always been a consistent draw on top. To not call Taker one of the best of all time because he's had some shitty matches in the last few years would be missing the point to the pro wrestling business in general.
Super Shisa - Sat, 23 May 2020 08:38:52 EST cfOXxE22 No.6397532 Reply
In your opinion.

It's like claiming the greatest movies of all time are Avengers and Avatar because they made the most money.

Sure if your metrics for deciding what is good are based on what makes corporations you have no stake in money, then be my guest. But lots of people judge quality by different metrics, and in those Undertaker is miles off the best.
The Artist Formerly Known as Prince Iaukea - Sat, 23 May 2020 08:49:09 EST oUq1xYd+ No.6397535 Reply

Well, they're still legendary movies, aren't they? If they didn't make any money then they wouldn't be legendary movies. You could talk to fucking kids in Indonesia about The Undertaker and Avengers/Avatar, they're bigger than life.

It's not my metric, by the way, it's just how the world works. Money makes the world go round. An actor is trying constantly to be put in big, Hollywood movies because he wants to be well known and by default make money. If he keeps making independent movies with a brilliant script and great acting but nobody sees them, they're considered failures. Wrestlers don't really think much like this anymore because they're all marks so now its just MY 6 STAR MATCHHHHH LARIATOOOO instead of thinking about the bigger picture
Super Shisa - Sat, 23 May 2020 09:26:17 EST cfOXxE22 No.6397544 Reply
>An actor is trying constantly to be put in big, Hollywood movies because he wants to be well known and by default make money

That's not true, some actors turn down huge money roles because it isn't what they want to do, and others appear in a couple to fill their bank accounts and then spend the rest of their careers doing roles they are passionate about.

You are projecting your own view of how the world should be onto everybody else. Lots of people get into media and art because they actually love the mediums, love performing and love creating high quality pieces of work.

Do you think Daniel Day lewis couldn't have got a role in some superhero movie if he really wanted to? The same way Jon Moxley turned down millions of dollars to leave WWE, why? Because he loves wrestling and he wants to create matches and events that he feels proud of.

The idea that artists should be embarrassed of doing what they love, and instead just look to maximise profit at all times is ridiculous.
Midajah - Sat, 23 May 2020 10:30:08 EST d26y7vlS No.6397567 Reply
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The guy's first name is Mark, this shit writes itself
Azreal - Sat, 23 May 2020 10:38:22 EST Iloxnvko No.6397576 Reply
In my head canon, Rey Mysterio was the turning point. He broke his orbital in 2010 which caused him to miss time which was explained by him going into a "vegetative state." Eventually he came back and fought Kane at like half power and then fucked off until Mania. That was the start of him only coming around once a year or so. Before that he had been doing his best work for like 5 years
British Bulldog - Sat, 23 May 2020 10:50:12 EST jEGuiRVR No.6397590 Reply
Looking back apart from during the AE, when he looked like a legit badass, his shtick was always kinda corny af. Its no surprise they never talk or show much of him pre-96 stuff because it was so bad.

Hell they didn't even treat the streak as important for a very long time. Which isn't shocking because he had some serious stinkers, but I suppose they did a good job of pretending it actually meant something when in reality he was usually in shit matches while the actual stars were wrestling each other.
Sarita - Sat, 23 May 2020 11:20:22 EST HkQcIkvY No.6397606 Reply
To be truthful, the reason they didn't treat the streak as important for years is that nobody actually noticed. It was pure coincidence. Edge actually managed a really good WrestleMania undefeated streak too. The thing is, it's probably not actually important to most wrestlers how well they perform at a given event. If Heath Slater won at WrestleMania every year but lost 200 other matches, would he be a world champion?
Ranjin Singh - Sat, 23 May 2020 11:28:06 EST WaJ3d2Ta No.6397611 Reply
If you watched him as a jimmy in the 90s his popularity makes more sense. I feel like it would be hard to get taker if you started watching at any other era.
Chief Jay Strongbow - Sat, 23 May 2020 11:53:43 EST dYhrmb6W No.6397618 Reply
I think it's a combination of his most recent bad matches and people taking that "Never was the guy" copy pasta too seriously.
Allison Wonderland - Sat, 23 May 2020 16:05:54 EST /zwql4wM No.6397813 Reply
This big ginger goof is afraid of cucumbers. Man's a joke.
Athena - Sat, 23 May 2020 17:32:36 EST BCfQbN/x No.6397866 Reply
They found out he killed his parents
Paul London - Sun, 24 May 2020 08:31:13 EST Vs+oTcqS No.6398241 Reply
Just a brief aside from Taker, I never understood why, going into their match at WM24, the WWE sort of positioned Edge as also having a nascent undefeated streak like you said. Despite the fact that he lost the MITB match the previous year. My headcanon is that it was one of the old mans decisions and no one could talk him out of it until finally his attention is diverted to something else, like a sneezing burrito.

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